Will someone please tell me what's wrong with hate?

[Ron Mexico]

Because I'm against religion in schools and / or I think Republicans are assholes, I often hear that I'm "full of hate."

You know what? I am. So fucking what? I'm not acting on it, I'm not running around physically assaulting Christians or Republicans, and I'm not letting it interfere with my judgement. I hate Thomas and Scalia, but that didn't stop me from being quick to admit that they were right about the Kelo v. New London case.

It just seems to me that "why are you so full of hate?" is the lamest fucking question imaginable unless you're asking it to, for example, someone in trial for splitting open the head of another. My username makes fun of Michael Vick, but that does not mean I hate everyone in Atlanta. I am against illegal immigration, but that does not mean I hate Mexicans, Chinese or any other nationality that has people here illegally.

Oh, so Republicans aren't full of hate? Check out those in my office (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4678958). I'm told that I'm "blinded by hate towards Bush," but two points: 1.) the person who says that to me invariably hates Clinton just as much, and 2.) I can see just fine regarding Bush (Iraq war, lame response to Katrina, shitty domestic AND foreign policies, absence of the frontal lobe of his brain), thanks.

So yeah, I'm full of hate. Every time I see a fucking Repug on TV, I want to throw up. That doesn't invalidate my points about them or their shitty fucking policies. Are you seriously going to tell me that those same points would be more valid if delivered by Mr. fucking Spock?

As long as you don't act on it, what's wrong with hate? Since when did "you're so full of hate" become an actual argument?

[Skittles]

1. how about its counterpart WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA

for anyone who doesn't goose-step to the lies about the phony "war on terror"

[bryant69]

2. You aren't going to like this anwer

Because if people trust you they are more likely to listen to what you have to say. If people believe you are motivated by an irrational hatred, they are less likely to care what you have to say. Now people, like us here on DU still will, because most of us have strong feelings about President Bush.

But we are talking about the rest of the world - and in order to get them to listen to what you have to say, you have to convince them you are worth listening to. Some of societies demands are crap and some of them we can't afford to kowtow to. But this one; well, think about how you have reacted to people who were, in your opinion, motivated by hatred in the past. Did their expressions of hatred make you more or less inclined to listen to what they have to say?

There is also the philosophical question of what hatred does to your psyche - but presumably you've already considered that.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Ron Mexico]

3. So then unless I'm neutral on something, I am to either

keep silent or fond the switch on my back that activates indifference?

Everybody hates something. And those who hold it in will pay a physical price eventually.

[bryant69]

19. What is the difference between Moral Outrage and Hatred?

Do you see any difference or are they the same thing?

[Ron Mexico]

30. I hate to admit this, but

the question is waaaaaaay too vague for me (not your fault, I'm just speaking for myself here). What you may consider a question of morals is something I might not. I'm not sure I can answer it at all, and I'm certain I can't answer it the way it was asked, sorry.

[bryant69]

35. OK

I don't really understand what's unclear about the phrase Moral Outrage.

When President Bush's policies kill thousands, doesn't that provoke one's sense of justice to outrage?

Is that distinct from hatred?

[Ron Mexico]

44. Maybe I'm

just not so inclined to make the distinction. Maybe in that case I simply jump to hatred of the policy and its creator without stopping to say "I am morally outraged, but am not sure if I'm hating this or not." That's what I meant - I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just don't dwell on that. I really don't put a whole lot of time into analyzing why I hate Bush unless you count my list of 338 reasons (I actually have a list like that somewhere at home) as "analysis." I am not motivated to go through every item and try to figure out what is hate and what is moral outrage. Hell, I'm morally outraged that we could have had such bad candidates to choose from the last election, but that doesn't mean I hate Kerry.

[Silverhair]

31. Moral Outrage is specific, aimed, and objective.

I can be morally outraged about something a person has done, and still care for the person. Moral outrage seeks change in a situation, whereas hate simply wants to destroy.

Moral outrage will also insist that that you remain moral too. Hate doesn't care, and will gladly do immoral things if it can thereby damage the object of the hatred.

[Union Thug]

4. Why do you assume hatred is necessarily irrational?

I think there is very good reason to hate some people. Bush for example.

[Ron Mexico]

7. I do NOT assume it's irrational. I'm just trying to find out

how accusing someone of hate has become a valid talking point.

[Union Thug]

13. Thanks for clarifying...

I know there are people that immediately jump on the 'hate is wrong' bandwagon for philosophical or religious reasons.

In my opinion, we have a right to hate, and an obligation to hate in some circumstances. But I guess I'm outside the pigeon hole that liberals have been shoved into. :-)

[Bluebear]

21. It's a very immature debating point

"You're just h8ing" sounds like something a 13 year old would type. :)

[Ron Mexico]

28. YES! This one speaks reason! (n/t)

[bryant69]

39. That's as may be but it is an effective point

I guess this post is about two things.

1 - are republicans full of shit when they accuse of hating President Bush and of being irrational in our hatred? The answer is yes - I've written on this before.

2 - is it ok or a good idea to hate President Bush? This is a more detailed question in my mind - I generally think it's better not to be motivated by hatred; but I can understand other points of view.

Bryant

[Ron Mexico]

10. Whoops, sorry, you were replying to Bryant. Mea culpa. (N/T)

[Union Thug]

14. NP!... it is still valid...see response.

[bryant69]

16. Hatred is based on emotion

Emotion is irrational - or extra rational if you prefer. If someone is motivated by hatred, the underlying driving force is emotional. They may come up with rationales for why they feel the way they do, but the core is pure emotion.

Please don't play the "You Either Hate President Bush or you Love him" game. I'm perfectly capable of thinking President Bush has been a disaster as a president, and may very well be a monsterous human being who we should all dedicate ourselves to getting rid of without feeling hatred for him.

Bryant

[Union Thug]

25. Couple things..

Hate is an emotion based on a stimulus/experience/teaching/etc. It might be rational and it might not be. Maybe I hate Hitler because he murdered millions of people. Maybe I hate the Bush family because of their unfettered political/social attacks on working people.

Did I *SAY* that you had to either hate bush or love bush? No. I don't care how you feel about him. I simply implied that hatred can be rational and can be justified. It doesn't have to be irrational or wrong-headed. None of this is a game to me. It's survival.

[bryant69]

32. It's survival?

Hatred is survival?

At any rate I apologize for jumping the gun.

As for your first paragraph, well, it depends on wether the facts drive the emotion or the emotion drives the facts. And, as I queried above, is there a difference between moral outrage and hatred?

[Union Thug]

36. Survival in the sense..

that our lifestyles are determined by policy. If, for example, we continue to lose the gains made by labor over the years, this impacts my ability to provide healthcare for myself and my children, etc. Sorry I wasn't clear.

[bryant69]

37. Well I would say once again -

that not hating Bush doesn't mean giving into him or his insane policies. Rather I think we must fight him, each in our own way.

[Ron Mexico]

27. I didn't say anything of the kind, so don't worry. That would be like

saying that being against the Iraq war is the same as hating America. I'm discussing emotion, not stupidity.

Isn't disgust an emotion? If you either a.) hate nothing, or b.) can hide all of your hatred and disgust, make sure to bottle up the secret and sell it. You can then buy a seat in the Oval Office. I know nothing about you other than what you've written in this thread, but unless you're for "turning (insert name of middle eastern country here) into a parking lot," you've got to be better than what we have in there now.

[ForrestGump]

24. Yeah, it's adaptive

Sure, hate will consume you, etc, etc, etc. That's a nice, good, rational-sounding sentiment and I've certainly seen proof of it. But I'm not sure it's always the case -- I can see in myself that it's possible to compartmentalize that feeling toward a particular person, institution, or situation. Besides, it's possible that what I and many call 'hate' is more properly labeled 'outrage.' The only things and people I'd say that I hate are those who have more than earned my outrage. Hate, outrage...whatever: just don't falsely santize it or bowdlerize its expression (as in "You shouldn't hate anyone" "Okay, then let's just say that I intensely dislike him" "That's better")

[yppahemnkm]

60. Very good Point!

[ComerPerro]

5. Hate leads to suffering

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. There is a passage in the bible that up until this week

always bothered me.

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

I could never understand why Jesus would want me to hate anything? My father and mother especially?

Well, I finally realize what he was talking about. This passage does not mean I should hate MY father and mother. The father and mother that he refers to here is the government. Right now our government is one of the most corrupt governments that has ever ruled. It is not possible to follow Jesus's teaching and not hate them. You just can't let it dominate your life or your thinking.

[Silverhair]

23. The problem there is with the shades of meaning of the original Greek.

It doesn't mean the same as most people use it in English. It is used as a comparison. Your love for Jesus must be so strong, that other loves would seem as hate beside it.

It had nothing to do with gov't.

[DoYouEverWonder]

43. A fair bit of the writings of the early christians

was political. They had the Romes, we've got the Bush's. When groups of christians, such has the gnostics became subject to persecution because of their beliefs they had to create a code in order to communicate and not get killed. So when you read these writings in the context of the political climate of the time, then a lot of these passages make a lot more sense.

[Silverhair]

57. Most of the NT was written before the gnostics. NT

[DoYouEverWonder]

58. Most of these writings come from around the same time period

For example the Gospel of Luke is dated around 60BC, where the gospel of Mary is about 120 BC.

[Silverhair]

62. You mean CE don't you?

The NT, except for Revelations was complete before the gnostics.

[DoYouEverWonder]

65. None of them are from direct accounts

so is there a big difference? The gnostic gospels, at least the ones that have been found, are copies of Greek writings that had occurred earlier. Sort of like chain mail but it took a few years to get translated. They didn't have printing presses yet, so I would imagine it might be a cumbersome task, especially if you had those nasty Romans after you.

I think the gnostic writings are more authentic anyway because we are working from original documents and not translations of translations that have been let's say been 'edited' by the male dominated Roman Catholic church.

[Silverhair]

66. I disagree.

There are some very ancient fragments around. And the Roman Catholic church did not exist as we now know it until about 600 CE. Yes, I know that RCs claim Peter as the first Pope, but protestants dismiss that. From 33 CE until 325 CE the church had no organization but was a collection of individual groups. From 325 CE until 600 the RC organized and consolidated.

Textual criticism of the Christian Bible uses more than the RC manuscripts. There are parts of Christianity that were never subject to Rome, or that split of early. In all there are four families of manuscripts that are cross referenced, so the modern Greek NT is extremely accurate.

And the NT does predate the gnostic writings. Further, the gnostic writing were not "suppressed" as there was no group with authority to suppress them. They were simply not accepted by the early Christians as being authoritative.

[El Supremo]

29. Here is an explanation I found by Googling around

Jesus uses a Hebrew idiom. He uses hyperbole. In Hebrew it is clear that the word "hate" does here not mean literally to hate them, but is used in order to make a strong contrast. He makes clear that the allegence and love for him needs to be so strong and so much more than all other love in your life if you want to be a true disciple that all other love looks like hate in comparison. He did not call to hate our parents (in fact, he states various times that we are to honor them and to love them), but the hyperbole is used to make this strong appeal that your priorities need to be really clear.

[Hello_Kitty]

8. Because you are not hating the right people

You are supposed to hate all non-white Christian people, gays, and the French.

[Ron Mexico]

15. Here's an answer that makes sense. So if I can work up

hatred of the French, that'd be a good step towards mutual understanding with these inbred fuckheads? ;)

[Silverhair]

9. It is destructive to yourself.

Your hate will destroy you ability to be objective. And that lack of objectivity will make you less effective politically. In your own post you state that people dismiss your arguments because you are so full of hate, so it is already hurting you. It will color all your decisions until it is the only emotion that you have left, losing even the ability to love.

Never give in to hate.

[AlCzervik]

11. Wow!! Excellent and i agree!

[Bluebear]

17. Is that why you often give the right wing counterargument?

To understand them better?

[Silverhair]

42. I have often stated that my politics are about 45L.

I have often stated here on DU that my own politics are about on the 45L line. (Use the analogy of a football field to give a position.) So I suppose that to you may look like I am a Freeper. However, that is an average. On some issues, I am about 10L, (Unversal health care - I have posted about it.) and on one issue I am 10R (RKBA issues.)and on some issues I am out-of-the-box. (Energy. I support thermal depolymerization) I have scorn for uber-conspriacy theories as explanations for everything.

I suppose that you consider any opinion that isn't in lock step with you to be RW.

[Bluebear]

47. Tone duly noted,,,,

"I suppose that you consider any opinion that isn't in lock step with you to be RW." OK, now that we have that out of the way.

No, what makes you look a little like a freeper (and I never call anyone that here) is your tendency to want to take the air out of a poster's sails by presenting the contrary opinion. I don't know if it is for sake of argument or fairness or whatever, but sometimes folks come here just to vent. They don't need to hear the RW side 'to be fair', does that make sense?

[Silverhair]

56. Could you be more specific?

I do have scorn for CTs that require hundreds of operatives working perfectly to execute the plan, or that require the laws of physics to be changed. I do often tell posters to take off the tinfoil hat.

I don't like alarmists who get worked up in a lather over every news item. I compare them to Chicken Little. Note: I was one of the early ones warning that Katrina was going to be a major disaster, and when the eye zigged to the East I posted immediately that the levees were in danger. I was badly wrong about my prediction for the MS Gulf Coast. (I predicted not much would happen.) It is OK to sound a warning if the danger is real, but not over every headline. I do often tell alarmists to calm down. However, there are some very real dangers in the future: Global Warming, World Wide Pandemics, Peak Oil.

I readily ask those who wish for a military coup to take down W, "What makes you think a bunch of RW officers will be friendly to the left if they stage a coup?"

I don't have much patience with those who take flights of fantasy that are completely unconnected to reality. Republicans are NOT going to impeach W. W will NOT nominate Bill Clinton for a supreme court seat.

I often like to discuss tactics. To disagree with someone's tactic is not to disagree with the goal.

And I do believe in a mixed economy, neither pure free market nor pure socialist. A pure economy of either is a disaster for the people.

But I don't think any of that makes me a freeper.

[Bluebear]

61. I understand you better now.

And am glad for it. Sincerely sorry if I implied anything untoward.

[Ron Mexico]

18. Actually, it's not that

people are dismissing my arguments because they think I'm full of hate, it's because of their beliefs. Go look at the link I included in the post I opened this thread with and then ask yourself if it's my hate that's blocking an honest dialogue.

[Union Thug]

34. I only think this is true when you are unable to articulate specifically

why you hate <insert object of your hatred here>. I can hate something and not get into a red-faced, fist-to-cuffs. ;-)

[TahitiNut]

41. Detachment, grasshopper.

Ommmmm. Ommmmm.


Nu? :silly:

[DoYouEverWonder]

49. Not giving into hate is the key

I don't think it is possible to not feel hate. You have to look at what is causing you to feel that way. Are you feeling hate because you are jealous or envious, or are you feeling hate because you are outraged at an injustice that has been committed against yourself or another human. It would be inhuman not to feel rage and hate over what we have seen just this last week.

What matters and makes the difference is how we respond to that feeling of hate. Do we lash out and break things or do we direct that anger towards doing something about it, to do whatever we can to correct the wrong. It is how we react to hatred that damages us or makes us better. We don't have much control over bad people who do bad things who effect us. But we can control our reaction to them.

[Bluebear]

50. OH YOU SOLVED IT!!!!

It's RAGE that people are mistaking for hate!

[DoYouEverWonder]

52. Rage is an expression of hate

There are other ways to express hate. Rage is the stage most of are at right now though.

[Bluebear]

53. No, rage = enraged = angry, isn't that true?

If you hurt my dog, for example, I am enraged. I don't "hate" you at the moment, love versus hate does not enter into it. Anger, moral outrage, these emotions don't necessarily follow a degree of like and dislike.

[DoYouEverWonder]

55. My son has the capablity

of sending me into a rage on occassion (rare fortunately) but when it happens, even though I love him more then my own life, I am feeling hate.

[Must_B_Free]

64. Malloy always says

"hate will do more damage to the bearer than the object of the hatred."

[tabasco]

12. Yeah, I hate criminals.

Like the ones running the country.

Hating hunger led to the development of irrigation.

Hating injustice led to the development of laws and courts.

Hating slavery led to charters and constitutions.

It could be said that hate is one of the most productive human emotions.

Unjustified hate is what is wrong.

[Ron Mexico]

20. Outstanding. I'm going to borrow this, if you don't mind. :) (n/t)

[stillcool]

22. after years of therapy...the answer for me...

..is to hate the action and dislike the individual. It is so much larger than an individual...what we are seeing... the same mentality brazenly being portrayed by a portion of our society has always been there. The difference now being they are now free to give voice to their own creed of hatred. It is highly indicative of the sickness of a society structured on form rather than function, the amassing of money as some intrinsic value or measure of success, and the over-riding fear of 'not having enough'. So many people walk around with a belief system they themselves are unaware of, because it never occurs to them to question that which they've imbibed.

[firefox]

26. There is an irrationality around the word hate

I am surprised somebody has not responded with "I hate hate." Hate is an emotional state like love. It is just the way you feel. It is natural and it exists. The Christian religion has a lot to do with this as hate is a sermon material when you want to preach love. It is funny how it is used by the government when people need to hate Saddam/Iraq or the liberals or the welfare queens.

You can really see hate in the anti-choice followers that let it act as a ring in their nose so that we all can be lead to a slaughter on our rights and standard of living. That goes for the hate whipped up against gays and their wishful marriages.

There was a time when I was a child I attended church and I remember the song "They will know we are Christians by our love." In recent years I have called for people to rewrite the words to say that we will know they are Christians by our hate.

The only reason a person would not hate the neocon lead charge to replace "government" with "rule" in the US is because of ignorance, apathy, or being one of the lucky few that need the "rulers" to control the distribution of wealth so that all things evaporate up.

[Raksha]

33. Yeah, I used to get that all the time on another forum.

So I finally shocked everyone by announcing that I was no more ashamed to be a "Bush hater" than I was to be a liberal. On the contrary, I'm proud of it!!! I told those freepers that after all, I wasn't BORN a Bush hater, that there are some very good reasons why I hate that POS. A couple of times I wrote after my signature, BUSH HATER AND PROUD OF IT! They huffed and puffed about it for days, but then these are people who are such confirmed "liberal haters" they make me look like a pussycat even at my most vehement.

[derby378]

38. A short answer

If you hate people, that's a problem. If you hate actions or mindsets, that's a lot different.

You can (and should, IMHO) hate the atrocities at Auschwitz, Tuol Sleng, Babi Yar, Nanking, Rwanda, Wounded Knee, Bataan, etc. They represent the darkest corners of humanity's collective soul. And I can't hold it against you if you hate the architects of such atrocities, such as Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.

But if it becomes all too easy to hate someone for embracing a particular ideology, this can be a problem.

[TahitiNut]

40. Wow! What an opportunity to show Buddhist or Taoist philosophies!

I won't, though. I think that's a path each person needs to follow on their own, getting whatever support they request.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

48. Welcome to DU but I disagree

Passion helped build this nation.

I don't often use the word hate, usually it's "I cannot stand/stomache/abide him/her"..... but, say I don't support Nancy Kwitakowsky's candidacy for President in 2008: it's lame for a NK fanatic to say "Stop your hating!!" People have come to use 'hate/hater/hating' much too loosely. I 'hate' Brussell sprouts. (I love Belgium, though.) The dislike of that vegetable is not going to "eat me up from the inside".

Unless I eat it.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

54. They are better people than I am.

Truthfully, outrage inspires my finest work, though. It is not given to everyone to be reasoned and calm, but outrage does not neccessarily equate hate.

[michael_1166]

46. Hate is not good for your immune system

and makes you prone to all kind of illnesses. It releases stress hormones into the blood stream which weaken your heart. So hate is not really advisable, but I guess, inevitable when confronted with such a monstrous, dangerous DNA disaster on two legs like the current president of the United States...

[mitchum]

59. Some things (and even people) are TRULY deserving of hatred

I make no apologies

[cynatnite]

63. I consider hate to be a negative emotion with no real value...

after 9/11, I didn't hate. After the immoral and illegal war started, I didn't hate. After the thousands killed because of the war, I didn't hate.

Now, I hate. I hate bush and I hate those fuckers in his regime. I hate them with as much passion as I am capable of.

My hatred will serve me well.