Soemone help...I just got into it with some freep co-workers. Need Help.

[pointblank]

:rant:



It was four against me. I shouldn't have opened my mouth, but I did anyway...Of course it was over Katrina

To make a long story short, they won. I walked out pissed, and told them to take their right wing spin bs elsewhere. I stuttered on my facts and lost it. They spouted the typical repuke talking points about how it was the state's responsiblity to build up the levees, and that Bush had to convince the governeor to declare anational emergency before the feds coould get in there...Anything but give any blame to Bush. At one point I even rescinded that there may be some blame at the local level, but Bush deserves some too...They didn't give an inch....I brought up that the gov of LA requested a disaster area be declared on Saturday or Sunday and that it was then up to the feds to handle ALL ops from there on out..I dont recall their response to that, I get nervous in live debates about politics. I have never been a real strong arguer, but I am very passionate about this....DAMMIT I SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I even brought up his forays after Katrina hit to Phoenix and San Diego to eat cake and play guitar...and they respopnded with 'Well he has a life of his own too" OMG I am fucking pissed off. Not only did I screw up the argument, I work with a bunch of morans.

I am thinking about just giving up, hiding my head in a hole and being dumb and happy like a lot of people that I know.

I need to build up my facts and skills if I am, going to go at them again. Soemone please counter this bullshit and quell my doubts that I am in the wrong here.

I know what I saw, I know I saw NOLA get left to drown. I saw Bush eating cake. I know they would have hung Clinton, Gore or Kerry for doing the same. Am I blaming the right person? I know Bush is scum, about that I have NO doubt, but is he really completely at fault? ...I feel like a Chrtitian questioning his faith right now, its weird. They almost had me convinced that I was being irrational. My head is spinning.

Maybe, I shouldn't even care. maybe They are just trash. Why the blind, unwavering devotion. Inever really liked the Hitler-Bush references...but I am starting to see why people use them. Why do I care??? WHY?

[cthrumatrix]

1. hold up a "wooden cross" and wear garlic ...they are lead by an evil man

[pointblank]

31. Done

LOL

[Tace]

2. "Do Not Cast Pearls Before Swine"

: )

[lateo]

3. The only links you will ever need to debunk them.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/7/03232/64789

DU's own georgia10

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/5/225729/7487

[pointblank]

32. Good stuff

Thanks. I need to put something SOLID togethter and email it to them. Links, ciitng sources etc.

[niyad]

4. remind them that the second he took the oath of office, (however he got

there), his LIFE is about SERVING the people of this country, NOT "having a life of his own". his life IS the people of this country, and if he isn't willing to do that, then he needs to step down.

not that this should come as a surprise to anyone who lived in texas while he was governor, or who had the sense to read molly ivin's book, "shrub", because those people know he is inherently LAZY.

[donco6]

5. There is no countering.

It's not like they'll listen or be convinced by any argument you give anyway. They have to get to the point where they allow themselves to even hear the truth. Obviously, they're not there yet.

[RobertSeattle]

6. Saw this at Sully's site:

"Plain and simple: President Bush signed Gov. Blanco's request to declare a state of emergency in Louisiana on 8/27. Within the text of that declaration the Gov. declares:
Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster.
The Stafford Act is the legal stipulator in that declaration. Under The Stafford Act:
§ 5170a. GENERAL FEDERAL ASSISTANCE {Sec. 402}

In any major disaster, the President may--

# direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities and the resources granted to it under Federal law (including personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, and managerial, technical, and advisory services) in support of State and local assistance efforts.
When President Bush signed that declaration on 8/27 he accepted a responsibility to the citizens of Louisiana. Who has the greater resources, Gov. Blanco, or President Bush? Why is Gov. Blanco held to a higher standard of competence than President Bush, when they each had the same responsibility?"

[snippy]

7. Ask them why FEMA hired a political consultant in 2004 for advice on

how to respond to hurricanes last year but not this year. Then show them this. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4666463&mesg_id=4668485

[Modem Butterfly]

8. Bush declared New Orleans a disaster area before Katrina hit

That alone gave FEMA authority over the situation.

[pointblank]

12. I told them that, but I was unsure if I was completely right

They catgorically denied that it ever happened of course. I was just too unsure of myself to throw it back inot their face as complete fact.

[Spazito]

16. Print this out and hand it to them, tell them to NOTE the date

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

Then tell them to read the National Response Plan

which kicks in IMMEDIATELY after the President signs the declaration declaring the disaster.

[pointblank]

49. YES

I will do this! Perfect. I cant wait to hear how they refute it. Should be funny.

I will couple that with WHEN it was actually declared a disaster area. There is no way to spin it.

[VTMechEngr]

67. BIG QUESTION! Why not jefferson Parish in that list?

[pointblank]

68. Isnt Jefferson where NOLA is????

Was it taken off?

Was it ever there?

What the hell??

[Zodiak]

69. Jefferson parish is unincorporated.

They basically seceeded from Louisianna....they have their own President or something....I think he was the one who cried about about his emergency manager's mother dying after being told for five days that help was coming.

A local would know more than I.

[Spazito]

71. Because the first paragraph of it which states:

The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.

covers it. "parishes in the path of Hurricane Katrina".

The others are listed because they may also receive extensive damage but were not in the direct path of the hurricane.

[lancdem]

9. Yes, Bush has "a life of his own"

But because of his negligence, thousands of people in N.O. no longer do. :mad:

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. The "save the gulf" link in my sig has all kinds of facts

------------------------------------------------------
Save the Gulf:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=106&topic_id=22507&mesg_id=22507

Then save the nation!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[gratuitous]

11. No, you don't suck

You just need a little more practice, that's all. You'll get better, believe me. Check around on the boards here, follow some links, familiarize yourself with their bullshit talking points. You'll be shooting them down better than Fat Tony Scalia and Crashcart at a canned duck hunt in no time.

Don't beat yourself up or dwell on the woulda-coulda-shouldas. If the past is any indicator, your freeper chums will think you're an easy mark, and come back for more. When that happens, like the card hustler who pretends not to know whether a flush beats a straight, you will be ready and loaded for bear next time.

And they'll be the ones cryin' for momma then.

[pointblank]

15. Thanks

YOu are right I havent had enough live practice.

I have spent a lot of time reading this board, and reading freep boards. I consider myself halfway intelligent and believe I am on the right side.

Maybe I am heartbroken to hear that epopel I work with everyday are such idiots. I am frankly suprised at some of their responses.

[DoBotherMe]

13. Bush federalized the emergency

on August 27 one day after Gov Blanco asked for him to do so. FEMA was in charge of emergency evacuation and security from that time forward. Anything that the local authorities did from then on had to be coordinated with FEMA. But Mayor Nagin continued to issue directives to his citizens from his office without FEMA interference and got 80% of the people out of the city WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM FEMA. For the remaining 20% most of them went to the dome where Mayor Nagin was told would be a FEMA presence and that the people would be evac'd from there. THE FEDERALIZED CAVALRY NEVER SHOWED UP UNTIL MAYOR NAGIN SHAMED BUSH ON NATIONAL RADIO. And since then the white house has been spreading misinformation and denying evidence that they ignored the catastrophe in New Orleans.

[villager]

14. Did you ask them, if Bush wanted "a life of his own,"

why did he choose to run for the most publicly demanding "job" on the planet?

And by the way, did they grant Clinton a "life of his own?"

No, didn't think so.

[pointblank]

20. I was too stunned to

think of that. I was dealing with FOUR of them. I was like a freakin pucnching bag. It was bad. I am starting to feel better thanks to you all.

[jsamuel]

17. The funding of the levees was a Corp of Engeneers problem which is federal

due to the huge cost associated with building up the levees. Just like the Highway Bill, there are things that poor states (like LA) and poor cities (like NO) cannot afford because their people are just too poor to make the taxes needed.

PLUS

The State and city begged them to give them the money to fund the levees and Bush lowered the funding to 20% so that they could not fix them. This was a failure of Bush and FEMA.

[pointblank]

23. I TOLD THEM THIS ALSO

They INSISTED that levees were the state's responsibility...again, I wasnt 100% and wanted to be totally sure before I stuck in their face.

The poor issue would not have any effect on these a-holes though, I'm afraid. From the way they were talking, compassion isnt one of their virtues

[jsamuel]

33. i know, that's when you call them heartless to their faces

or maybe something a little more toned down...

[quisp]

34. If it's the state's responsibility

why are they administered by the US Army Corp of Engineers.

[melissinha]

37. I think the Corps is over many waterways

I know that when you want to develop on land you need to go through the Corps of Engineers to make sure you aren't polluting the waterways... and that on the Colorado River in Texas!!!

THey are wrong, why would the Corps of Engineers have to request funds if the government wasn't responsible for the canals? Give THEM the burden of proof on the levees!!!! cause they know we have them on that particular point!

We have to remember that the other sides need to have the burden of proof too!

[txaslftist]

18. Take it easy. They don't matter.

Their opinions of you don't matter. Their opinions of NOLA don't matter, either.

You have now encountered bushbots in their purest and most unadulterated state, a state called DENIAL.

Hide your head in a hole at work and be happy, but SMART. Go to your local Democratic HQ and volunteer some time. Spend some time on DU and other websites. Donate blood.

Cultivate the friendship of independents, liberals and Democrats. And never go toe to toe with four nazis at a time ever again.

Much love and peace.

[pointblank]

25. Thanks

:toast:


I am at home sipping a beer now, and feeling better after reading your responses.

Man,it was weird. Almost like I was in another world or something. I felt beatren when I left. that is NOT like me. This whole Katrina situation has me all screwed up in the head.

[spuddonna]

19. Look, your job as an America is not to verbally beat back every

...crazy that you work with or speak to.

And in the heat of the moment, most of us don't have the ability to think as clearly as when we're talking to those we agree with. And you were stuck in a 4 on one! Geez! That's not an argument; that's a freakin' donnybrook! lol :)

Your job as an American is to be informed, make decisions based on fact, and argue when necessary. This administration is headed down a really scary path. They've abandoned their own people to die, and you did speak the truth.

You DO NOT suck. You care. You are a real American because you care about your fellow citizens and their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

You did a good thing. My mom always say, "As you go, you grow." You'll do that too. The next time maybe things will go a little differently. You stood up for what you believe and that makes you a real patriot. Guess what? Patriots lose too, but they inspire others. You inspire me.

Keep up the good works, my friend! :) :pals:

[sandnsea]

21. Here, print it out

Tell them they need domestic violence counseling before they end up dead themselves. If they ever wondered "why women don't leave", tell them they can look in the mirror and ask how many people have to die before they stop protecting their abuser in chief.

Blame Game? No, It's A Reckoning
7 September 2005

Blame Game? How dare the media or anybody in this Administration reduce the deaths of thousands of people to a “Blame Game”? It isn’t like this is the first abject failure of this Administration. It isn’t like he didn’t have to be shamed into responding to the most recent catastrophic disaster before Katrina, the tsunami. Have we forgotten so quickly? “The Bush administration more than doubled its financial commitment yesterday to provide relief to nations suffering from the Indian Ocean tsunami, amid complaints that the vacationing President Bush has been insensitive to a humanitarian catastrophe of epic proportions.” It isn’t like we all didn’t wonder where he went on 9/11, or why he spent 7 minutes reading “My Pet Goat”. It isn’t like we haven’t been living with the abysmal failure in Iraq for over 2 years. It isn’t like Osama Bin Laden is in jail or anything.

Blame Game? You’ve got to be kidding. I’d call it a reckoning and one that is long over due.

Need further convincing? Here is the ABC Guide to the Bush Scandals, which I still haven’t had time to complete. Blame Game my hind-end. When is this Administration going to answer for the disasters they have wrought on this planet.

A is for the Abramoff Fundraising Scandal, Asbestos bailout,

B is for the Body Armor

C is for Clear Skies and tripling mercury emissions, Chalabi Iranian spy, now head of Iraq Oil Ministry

D is for DFI, Darfur, Downing Street Memo

E is for Energy Task Force,

F is for Fake News, Fake Terror Alerts,

G is for Gannongate, Geneva Convention violations

H is for Healthy Forests, Humvee Armor

I is for IRAQ War Lies

J is for Judicial Radicals

K is for Kyoto Climate Change lies,

L is for LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES

M is for the Medicare Accounting Lies,

N is for the Nuclear Option, NCLB, Nuclear Weapon research

O is for Oil for Food (52% US kickbacks),

P is for Poindexter's Terrorism Futures Market, Privatization lies

Q is for Quagmire

R is for Richard Perle Influence Peddling, opening roadless areas

S is for Star Wars Missile Defense failure,

T is for Torture Scandal, Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan & Gitmo, tax give-aways

U is for UN nominee spectacle John Bolton, UN bugging, Underfunding Homeland Security

V is for Valerie Plame, vaccination crisis, gutting Veteran's Benefits

W is for Wildlife Refuge lies

X is for Camp X-Ray

Y is for Yucca Mountain lies andscandals of forged documents

Z is for Ground Zero EPA Lies

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/?view=plink&id=1351

[Hello_Kitty]

22. I feel for you. I get the same way.

My heart pounds and I start stammering and forget my facts. Later on, I can always think of the pithy zingers I could have hurled at them. Drives me crazy! :banghead:

I'm so angry over this that all I can do when some wingnut tries to engage me is put my hand up and say "Don't even bother with that crap" and walk away or change the subject.

And what more do you need to say than Chimpy was eating cake and playing golf while the Gulf States drowned? Even if he somehow managed to pull himself together and show some leadership when he finally made an appearance, his initial response is simply inexcusable. Of course this isn't all his fault, no one is saying it is. It was a Cat 5 hurricane so destruction was inevitable. But rather than show a modicum of concern for the people affected, he acted like Marie Antionette.

Try not to feel bad about it. It would be hard for the most eloquent debater to win an argument with 4 people, even if they are freeptards. You showed courage just by being willing to take them on. One of them would never take on 4 of us, they couldn't handle it. They'd just snivel and crawl back to their cubicle to listen to Rush.

[enid602]

24. Bush

Had similar conversation with fundie/freepies (creepy/crawlies?) this AM in my office. I just ended my spiel by saying that if Bush can get out of the mess he's made (Iraq, Katrina response, etc.) this time, then he REALLY MUST be the anti-christ. This did seem to deflate them a bit.

[Oeditpus Rex]

26. The same thing happens to me

I go on defense and get flustered and emotional (i.e. pissed off). That's why I read verified news links posted here and familiarize myself with them. If you know your stuff, you won't get flustered. (It's always good to cite sources they can't deny, too, such as the Congressional Record. Otherwise, they've got the "liberal media BS" comeback.)

[pointblank]

28. Yup

Got the liberal media BS comeback. I told them that I saw the governor requested help before the hurrican fact in a news article and got hit with it.

i need to study up more. fuck em.

[Locrian]

27. I know how you feel

You have to realize they are projecting themselves in bush. THEY wouldnt and wont do anything either for "those people". It really IS classism or racism or whatever you want to call it.

They belive that they are where they are in life not because of chance but because THEY **worked** to get there. THEY wouldnt have got trapped there. THEY would have had money to get out etc.

In a real feral sense, they are using survival instincts of self preservation. They cant allow themselves doubt and they cant take on the burden of caring for someone else. Its just not in their best intersts. That believe for them justifies bush's actions.

I dont know how to change these people. I visited a forum that I use to post on that has the same kind of people. Smart, well educated, decent debaters, $$, but utterly un-caring for people who are not as smart or well of as they are (ie if they arent they deserve their fate). I know I cant outbattle them with facts either because there are too many distortions and the volume is too high on the RW talking points. Not that their facts are right (there is a ton of FACTS on Katrina). Read Lakoffs "Dont Think of an Elepant" to see why they believe as they do.

Good luck, just remember you are more enlightened and value that. It is a rare gift, however it does come with a price.

[quisp]

29. I work with a bunch of Freepers too...

and it has taken a while but I've beaten most of them down. Here are a couple of tips:

1) Don't let them change the subject. When there is more than one they gang up on you and hit you from all sides with "what about this and that". Stay on message.

2) Have Government sources for information whenever possible. If it's news source try to get AP.

3) Keep it light and funny. Don't get too serious. Play things off a jokes and then give them a hard time for getting their pantys in a wad.

4) Read www.bartcop.com - a great source of funny put downs for these monkeys.

5) Be Proud to be a Liberal!

and finally, The President has a life to lead??? BULLSHIT! He's on 24/7 for the duration of his term. Remind them that when Dimson is out clearing brush he ISN'T doing anything Presdiential. And anyway whoever heard of a Texas Republican millionaire rancher clearing brush himself? I've had a real Texas Republican millionaire rancher tell me that would never happen, "That's what mexicans are for."

[pointblank]

38. Thanks

They changed the subject frequently. I was stupid to try and take on four of them, but I really expected an ally to be honest (he either wimped out or I misread him)

I got too serious. I left the room. I NEVER do that shit. I was off of shift and went straight home, but still.

Youre right on about the prez's life. His job IS his life. Why does Chimp always get a pass???

Youre last comment made me spit my beer. Thanks!

[LSK]

30. Army Corps of Engineers is Federal

Send them loosers to me!!! :spank:

[pointblank]

43. You want their work email addressses...

How about home phone numbers??

Im kidding, but thanks!

[SujiwanKenobee]

35. We aren't all natural live debaters

I'll bet that if your weapon of choice was the pen or the mouse you'd do great. Think about all the people that were swayed by words--The Federalist Papers--for example. Some persons are natural firebrands and facts and bullets of words simply leap from brain to lip. SOme of us are more quiet thinkers who need time to organize our thoughts. No sin there. Just know your strengths.

[pointblank]

39. My pen is definitely mightier than my sword

...Did that sound bad?? :o

[bunkerbuster1]

36. First of all, calm down.

You're playing into their hands if you allow yourself to get upset. Of course you're upset about Katrina and about Bush, but you can't let those fuckers see it.

You're right about doubting one thing. No, it is not all Bush's fault. that's silly--nobody here or anyone else would say such a thing.

The idea that we're irrational "Bush Haters" is a common rallying cry among the Moran-osphere. To them, this has become something merely personal.

It's not. It's institutional. The fact is, you have people at the highest level of government who make a point of loathing government. It's self-contradictory, it has been since you had drooler-in-cheif Ronnie Raygun blathering about "that which governs least, governs best."

Keep it high-level, keep it simple, keep it factual. If they try to zing you next time, smile and regroup.

Don't beat yourself up.

[pointblank]

40. Thanks

I lost my cool. I am alright now, and will NEVER be unprepared again.

:toast:

[anarchy1999]

42. Sometimes it is just healthier to walk away. Many of the bushbots need

to feel more pain before they wake up, if they do.

[info being]

41. Its hard when its four against one

I had the same scene you describe regarding a 9/11 conversation. Don't give up, they know where you stand now and they may come back at some point to ask you questions.

[Guaranteed]

44. It's alright.

Here are a couple of points- approaches, maybe- that might help:

#1- The hurricane destroyed New Orleans. The feds acting as if they aren't going to need to help is ridiculous. New Orleans wasn't in the position to be taking care of itself. And the feds should know that. 80% of the city GOT OUT- statistically, you can't even really expect more than that, so really, everything that could have been done by the city was done.

#2- Attack Bush directly. His behavior during this disaster was obviously unacceptable.

#3- Make analogies. Schiavo, 9/11. The feds respond to things. It's their responsibility. This was WORSE than 9/11.

#4- The feds TOOK responsibility on August 27th with the disaster declaration that Bush signed. There should be a copy of it floating somewhere around on DU.

Anyway, just keep reading and look for our strong points. Don't let them drag you too much into arguing over details. It was the feds' responsibility, and they know it. Just don't let them say otherwise.

[pointblank]

47. I know you are right...I know I was right

Point 1 - irrefutable IMO. they would prolly find a way. That is something I did not bring up though. Thanks

Point 2 - their answer - I only hate Bush because I am brainwashed. I have to look at both sides of the issues (believe me I have)

Point 3 - Not sure what they would say...Then again why would I be? I am not a moran!


Thanks. Unfortunately, I think they REALLY believe it is Blanco's fault.

I didnt mention earlier, but these guys are like in their 40's or 50's one is in his 60's. I am all of 29, so I may have been a bit intimidated by this.

[spooked911]

45. Four against one is tough. They ganged up on you

and clearly they are idiots for trying to defend the asshole in chief.

Don't worry about them.

[jedicord]

46. Tell them a joke...

Rumor has it that the only reason President Bush offered money and aid to rebuild the Katrina-damaged coastal areas of Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana is that he misheard on the news that there was "major damage and flooding all along the Golf Course."


:rofl:

[B Calm]

48. Was the TVA work done on the Tennessee River by the Army Corps

of Engineers done by the state?

[B Calm]

70. State's responsiblity to build up the levees... Seriously look at all

the great work and life saved by the Army Corps of Engineers TVA work done on the Tennessee River..

[knitter4democracy]

50. My answer is, "And if Clinton did that . . . "

It's true. They will defend Bush from stuff they viciously attacked Clinton for. Just keep saying it, and eventually they're either leave you alone or actually start to think. My bet's on the former.

[pointblank]

52. I should have done this

It is true. They have such a lkack of respect for Clinton though, i am not sure if it would phase them.

As I was leaving, I heard one of them say something, not sure what, about Clinton and then some laughter...If that tells you how bad it got.

[knitter4democracy]

72. *sigh*

They sound like bullies, and you'll never change them. I just wish you didn't have to work with them. :(

[clover]

51. in my college classroom today, i nearly melted down

when a student--a midwestern dude about 23 with a permanent hangover and hardon for the girl to his left, slouching in the back of my classroom, against the wall--during a discussion of WCWIlliams' The Use of Force-- which considers medical coercion vs. medical force when caring for a child who will die if her panic over examination is not surmounted--i took the oppportunity to connect it to the potential of forced evacuations in NOLA, asking rhetorically: what is to be done when people refuse treatment of any sort offered by a greater authority who deems treatment mandatory. . .like people choosing to stay Home rather than evacuate NOLA

and this boy in the back mutters
Shoot 'Em. he waits for the tee-hee from the girl to his left and he gets it, but the rest of the class is stunned, as i am, although i am more stunned by my anger and sudden loss of professorial slickness

so i asked what he said, he says Nothing, i say oh no: you said Shoot 'Em--a joke he says--unkind and uninformed i say--and he goes whooooooaaaaa. ouch. dude, he says to me, nearly 50 and bald as you can get,

Those people are shooting at us down there.

okay: long story short: i assigned a compare/contrast paper for the class, examining the terms :

those people, these people, you people, us, them

and to discuss under which circumstances, actual and emotional, one chooses one of those terms over another when speaking of fellow citizens.

i pray this brat drops my class, but i think it would be best if he didn't.

any other teachers out here who find class discussions gaining intensity and frankness? would love to share ideas with others, i can use the help.

love
clover

[pointblank]

55. This kid soiunds like some of the clowns

that I know who are now about 28-29 and still acting like that.

Always hungover. If not, always drunk and watching sports.

Think they are god's gift to women.

Smart assed remarks, constantly.

Racist, not blatantly, but little jabs here and there.

Rich fathers who support them, menial jobs.... yet they somehow are HUGE Bushboits and bash underpriveleged people constantly.


Yea, I know some real winners. :eyes:

[clover]

59. the weird thing for me is that he is not a rich kid by any means

i don't teach at a big U
somehow he is rating a hierarchy within a group of peers, as he is a rural kid with no ready cash and a real bad haircut. he's ranking the poor, which he is too. scaryshit today.

[pointblank]

63. WOW

I got a totally different picture in my head of him when I read your post.

Must be past experiences with those types of people. Hell, Im sterotyping as bad as they do!! Shoot me!

[bribri16]

64. Some of your most ardent idiots are poor and white.

Historically, the poor whites have been used as cannon fodder for all corporatecon wars, including the Civil War. Poor whites were not slave owners. Most were indentured servants, living just slightly above slave status and not as well as the slaves living in the "big house." The landed-gentry and cotton and tobacco barons of the south needed someone to fight the North so they did their job in convincing the poor whites that it was in their best interests to uphold slavery or those "n*****rs" would soon be taking over their tenant farms and boot licking positions. They played the fear game then as they do now. Consequently, they could raise an army. The wealthy of this class who did fight held the officer positions in the Confederacy. Eventually things got so bad that the plantation owners found that, while their children were being conscripted as "officers" in the confederacy, they too were being killed in massive numbers. Nothing has changed. It's still the wealthy business corporcons pulling the purse strings and spreading the message of division among poor and middle-income whites to make them believe that they should fear blacks and other non-whites. Otherwise, who would they get to fight their wars? Who would be their "cannon fodder?" Certainly not the children of Tom DeLay, Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz etc. Nothing new under the sun.

[pointblank]

66. I actually had a PARTICULAR person

in mind when I responded to you originally, although I know a few people like this....

This particular guy HAS a rich family...but he lives on his own, and doesn't really live very well. I know for a fact that his daddy gives him money to get by...but he doesn't 'act' rcih...in fact he hangs with non-rich people for the most part. Now that I think about it, I would never be able to tell he comes from money if I didn't know he did. Kind of an interesting hybrid, huh? A bigot, who lives in relative poverty, but has rich parents...go figure.

Man I know some screwed up people...

[artv28]

53. It's useless

They don't listen to facts. I got into this with a bunch of freeptards on a Slo-pitch Softball message forum earlier today. I posted the dailykos links and other articles that refuted all their ridicules RW taking points. Someone comes back with a cut/paste article from this website (more of the same RW talking points that I already disproved) http://www.czabe.com/daily/

The idiots respond with comments such as:
"wow, that says it all!"
and
"This is what I refer to as a THREAD ending post.
Hands down, no more questions and answers here. DONE"

It's useless talking to brainwashed right-wing asshats.

[CrispyQ]

54. A suggestion to help in the future.

I find if I'm organized in my talking points I can argue them better. It takes a bit of time, but it is essential for me in debating freepers. It also helps me to write them out -- I remember my facts better that way. It's also a good source for your references if you're called on them.

I open a Word document or a new email & title & save it right away. Then I start adding quotes, comments & links about/to the topic at hand. I especially look for repuke talking points & put those at the top of the list for easy access. At some point, I go back & organize/categorize what I've pasted into the document, preferably under the appropriate repuke talking points.

This has been very helpful for me in digesting the tons of info we have on this site & in being concise & to the point when debating the sheeple.

Lastly, there are times when it is ok to say, "this argument is not worth it" for whatever reason -- you're too damned tired, they're too damned stupid, it's not the right time, etc.

Do not give up & become fat, dumb & happy, cuz you know what? You won't be happy. Once you care it's hard to turn it off.

on edit: The Word/email idea is good when DU is on level 3 for tracking your posts.

[pointblank]

58. Wow, you sound organized!

I need some real live practice...I am person who learns by doing, not by reading or studying...sucks sometimes.

"Once you care it's hard to turn it off. "

This is so true. I am not so sure if I like it sometimes, but I am glad to have the capacity to do so!!


:toast:

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Bush DID declare LA a disaster area

THREE DAYS BEFORE the storm. FEMA dropped the ball. Everything I have read indicates that the mayor and the governor did their part but FEMA dropped the ball. FEMA was supposed to be there to aid with evacuation before the storm; they weren't there. FEMA complained that it was too hard to get there after the storm, but CNN was there, NBC was there, even FOX was there. FEMA didn't even know about the stranded folks at the convention center. We knew about that tragedy before FEMA did.

A disaster plan was prepared in Dec, 2004. It clearly outlines what FEMA was to have done last week in New Orleans. It has been posted here on DU. Maybe showing that to your freeper co-workers will make them understand what happened. I explained it to my co-workers this way: if we had a fire and I failed to evacuate my students and they died, I would be responsible. The teacher next door wouldn't be responsible; the custodian wouldn't be responsible. It would be my fault that they died because I failed to follow our emergency plan.

FEMA failed to follow the plan. People died. It isn't the mayor's fault; it's not the governor's fault.

[never cry wolf]

57. There are some good timeline and info on Randi's home page

http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/live/

[Danieljay]

60. Here's a word of advice for you....`

Dont argue with idiots. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

[ArkDem]

61. If I were you I'd just work instead. Nobody is going to change

any minds, sounds like.

[pointblank]

62. Just wanted to say thanks to all that responded

All of your input and empathy helped out a lot!


LOL! reading my orginal post, after calming down, gave me a chuckle. I think I burned my fingers typing that thing out as soon as I got home! (note all of the typos!)


Peace to you all!


:toast:

[chaska]

65. Invite them here. We'll set 'em straight...

and how.