DOES ANYONE KNOW ANY DETAILS ON WHAT EXACTLY BLEW THE LEVEES?

[spooked911]

I can't get any info on when and what did it.

This is such critical info and it is just not being reported. The best I've seen was an NPR report that said water washed over the canal side and weakened the foundations. But that seems kind of lame. Were there reports that the storm surge did it?

IF THE ONLY BREAKS WERE IN THE CANALS, WHY WEREN'T THEY CLOSED OFF? WHY WASN'T SOMEONE MANAGING THE FLOOD CONTROL BETTER? WHY WASN'T THE BREAK SEALED IMMEDIATELY?

How do we even know it wasn't terrorism?

[enid602]

1. levees

Hopefully, they did not 'pancake' straight down, or appear to observers to be controlled demolitions.

[spooked911]

2. Exactly. Do you smell a rat too?

[enid602]

4. unshockable

At this point, I consider myself unshockable.

[libertypirate]

33. Yes but this implosion could have been done with high pressure

hose and water...

[halsaxby]

54. Although I believe 9/11 was a classic MIHOP....

I think that the immediate cause of the tragedy in NO is simply excessive hydrostatic pressure. However, I don't think that we should ignore the fact that BushCo gutted the Army Corps of Engineer's budgets, which might have prevented this disaster.

[spooked911]

3. Kick.

[Land Shark]

5. Needs investigation; note the history of dynamiting levees IN LOUISIANA

and, the history of shooting on sight those who might be fixin to do that. Sheds some light on the news, don't it?

IDea is, water is legally known as the "common enemy" and diverting it one way to keep it from going another is as old as the hills.

From 1997, based on a book of historical scholarship:
<http://www.salon.com/april97/columnists/carville970407.html>

[spooked911]

15. wow, great link! Thanks!

[Land Shark]

63. yeah, history can be pretty important, esp. the history of levees

when you're talking about levees.

And, when you're debating whether levees were intentionally breached in Louisiana, I find (in my experience) that the history regarding the intentional breach of levees in Louisiana is pretty important.

Am I going out too far on a limb here?

Is the immediate past history of dynamiting levees IN LOUISIANA too tinfoil for people to handle as one of many leads worth investigating in a scientific and forensic pursuit of truth? Nobody would ever wish anyone in the US harm, right? So we can rule out all theories of intentionality from the get go, right?

Here's the link, again, for real investigators: (James Carville, Salon, 1997, nothing but a recitation of history at the time written)

http://www.salon.com/april97/columnists/carville970407.html

[ignatius 2]

76. OMG, the St.Bernard Parish was buried under 30 feet of water after the

dynamiting of the levees..the people received $300...

I woke up last night,couldn't sleep, and began thinking of NO.

I had heard rumors that the levee had been intentionally broken to save the "wealthy" part of town. I could not get that off my mind.

FEMA cut emergency phone lines,per Mr Broussard on MTP Sunday am,not allowing the emergency workers from the parrish to pick up diesel fuel from the coast guard,FEMA not allowing the Red Cross in.

Then I thought about the story of the men on the bridge who were killed. Had they seen something they were not supposed to see?

This article,written in 1997,wow..I don't know..I believed from the beginning that the BFEE was complicit in 9-11..the scenario this time is similar,falling ratings for Bush,but..why wasn't he prepared to come out looking like a hero this time around?

Maybe that is where Cheney has been, co-ordinating this,working on getting Bush impeached for his obvious negligence, so that he can finally rule the universe.

[CabalPowered]

6. I remember prior to the flooding someone mentioned

that the levees had dynamite built into them. I haven't verified that but certainly read it at DU prior to landfall. I also read a post after the flood that I think linked to a NOLA indymedia post about dynamite being used to blow one levee. I don't think it was substantiated with any other info..

[Blue Diadem]

75. I saw that indymedia post too. Never saw anything else about it

until this thread. I thought the indymedia post was sorta strange. If I remember correctly, they were listing names of missing people who belonged to the green party then somewhere in the middle came the comment about too much dynamite used at the levy.

[GumboYaYa]

7. Here is what I thinkk may be the problem.

I'm pretty sure that the spot where the levee broke on the 17th Street Canal was an area where they had recently completed some construction on the nearby road. They had left a lot of the construction equipment from the job sitting in the lake as the storm approached (at least that's what a friend told me). I wonder whether some of that equipment was thrown against the levee and caused it to degrade more quickly.

Another possibility is that the area of the levee that breached was part of the newer refurbishing in that spot and they had not tamped it down and planted it yet. THta would cause it to degrade more quickly also.

Both theories are pure speculation.

[spooked911]

13. that makes some sense-- but I can't believe there aren't more details

on such a significant event.

Do you know if they can close or block the canals off?

[txaslftist]

8. Ummmm. Water?

[spooked911]

12. Yes, but surely there are more details known than this.

was it a sudden storm surge? Or just gradually the levee lost its strength?

And why wasn't the canal closed off?

[txaslftist]

14. The surge topped the levy and it collapsed underneath.

Once the water breached it, the gap would have widened very rapidly. The levies were mostly earth and stone, not like a concrete dam; more like a really huge mound of earth.

Think of the little boy with his finger in the dike. All it takes is one hole.

[spooked911]

56. From what I have read, the main levee that broke was the 17th st

canal levee, which was a concrete and steel wall.

I'm wondering why this broke exactly, when it broke and why the canal wasn't blocked off or why the breech wasn't sandbagged immediately.

[spooked911]

57. Also earthen levees are very braod based, I don't think they collapse very

easily. Topped yes, but collapsed would be hard.

[Zynx]

73. Take a pile of dirt. Now use a garden hose on it.

[Zynx]

69. Water is extremely damn powerful. A little base erosion = bye-bye levee

What happened at the 17th Street Canal was water sloshed over, damaged the earth and clay base of the wall, which caused the wall to weaken, which promptly changed its structural mechanics and let the water smash it like an egg.

[kath]

72. Are you sure that the surge topped the levee? I haven't read this anywhere

have just read that the levee failed.

[spooked911]

77. the accounts are very conflicting

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09.html

these guys say the storm didn't top the canal levees:
Joannes Westerink, a hydrologic engineer at the University of Notre Dame who is working on a computer model of Katrina's flooding of New Orleans, agreed the storm surge in the lake was weaker than expected and may not have been high enough to top the levees.

"I would doubt it too," Westerink said of the overtopping scenario. He said that typically a storm surge has wave action on top of it that accounts for 2 feet, then wave crests can reach higher, although waves tend to be small in a canal.

"A very wild guess, I'd say you've got a couple of feet over the surge, so that's 11 feet. That would not be enough to top it," he said.

[NNN0LHI]

9. It was Osama dressed in a scuba diving suit

I seen him looting a 7-11 too.

Actually I have seen several video clips and still photos of barges on the "dry" side of New Orleans after the breach. Once the water started flowing nothing was going to stop them babies!

Don

[spooked911]

11. could you clarify what you are talking about in the videos and photos of

the "dry" side? I'm confused.

Thanks.

[NNN0LHI]

18. The formerly "dry" side of the levees had barges stacked up there

They would have acted like a battering ram. Google "levee+barge" and you will find some stories about it.

Don

[undergroundpanther]

10. Leveees

THis link says it was just transformers blowing up..
But it iadmits something BLEW.. which could be damming IF a blowing transformer can blow up a Levee..?? I dunno

http://judicial-inc.biz/katrina.htm


However you all know about controlled explosions? the charges can be installed into a building or a Leveee and left in place a detonated from a long distance by remote at the right time.Suspicious...
I do not know the answer.. but I do not think it's impossible for sociopathic people like the ones running this country to NOT do it.They enjoy and get pleasure from suffering and disasters.Remember they torture people and think it's ok that Iraqi kids get raped.These people are depraved.So judging by thier charater yeah they probably blew up the Levees.

I also got this in my email from one of my freinds recently.It's not proof it just means the question is being asked and to me no questions should be "taboo" if you REALLY want to find THE real answers.

The rumor in the superdome and the convention center circulating by the
people who were hearded like cattle was that part of the levy was left
unfinnished on purpose and another part was blown up so there would be
an overflow into he poor sections as to get them out and never let them
back in again. and ya know what they were right.

don`t forget to watch Opra`s special show this week at 4pm EST on
Katrina.

___

[SoCalDem]

16. Counter-clockwise rotation of the storm

Once the storm parked over Mississippi, the heaviest precipitation and the more ferocious sustained winds drove water in Lake Ponchartrain south, overtopping the flood control panels..the water overflowing, undermined them on one side, and once water pushed, with such force was pressing on them, they failed.. One fails, they go like dominoes..

Katrina created a "tsunami" effect on LP..piled up wind-driven water and drove it south til; it hit the flood walls..

That's the way the weather guy explained it:)

[KoKo]

24. And, there's always the possibility of this guy:

(But I think the weather guy's explanation is more credible) :-)

b]Bush 2000 Florida recount aides were rewarded with top FEMA
Reversing an eight-year crusade to rid the now-embattled Federal Emegency Management Agency of political patronage, a newly elected George W. Bush in 2001 named two key players in his Florida recount fight to important FEMA posts.

Neither man, Jacksonville attorney Reynold Hoover (pictured at left) and Miami lawyer Mark Wallace, had any experience in emergency management before they were named by the Bush administration to FEMA, now under fire for its botched response to Hurricane Katrina.

Hoover, a longtime "explosives expert" with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms who became a lawyer in 1996, is still with FEMA as its director of national security coordination. Wallace left the Bush administration in 2004 to become deputy manager of the president's re-election campaign, and is now a lobbyist

[slackmaster]

17. Water

Lots and lots of water.

:dunce:

[FlaGranny]

19. I saw a report on either CNN or MSNBC

that there is a 2-foot thick concrete wall (you can see it on aerial shots) on top of the levee and that is what gave way, allowing water to flow and wash out the actual levee. I don't know if that is true or not or how they came to that conclusion.

[bassman79]

43. That's correct, which raises the question

how did water destroy 15 yards of concrete barrier?

[seemslikeadream]

20. You might want to watch this

http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessage?topicID=802.topic

[Roland99]

22. Oh good grief!

The "blasts" were probably the wall giving way.

[Taxloss]

26. Wow, only one degree of separation from R_nse.

"Levee, Levy ... that's a JEWISH name, isn't it?"

:crazy:

[seemslikeadream]

28. I was referring to this post

I just spoke to a good friend who has lots of family in New Orleans - some still unaccounted for. I trust him completely and we were discussing the awful news that keeps coming out about what has happened in New Orleans. I remarked that we probably hadn't heard the worst of it. He said, "I'll tell you the worst thing I've heard and I heard it from my mother. She said she heard several blasts - big booms - right before the levees broke. Several blasts and then all the water came pouring in." He went on to say that several people have told him this same thing. This is the story going round from the people who were there.

[Taxloss]

29. The levees are/were concrete walls supported by earth banks.

The earth banks were washed away by the storm; the walls failed. The funny thing is, it is actually EASIER to destroy a levee this way than to blow it up because and earth bank is excellent blast protection, as any designer of air raid shelters will tell you.

[seemslikeadream]

35. And you were there?

[Taxloss]

36. No, I wasn't, and neither were you.

But that doesn't change the design of the levees - concrete walls, earth banks. Hard to blow up. Very hard. But in a cat 4 hurricane, the earth can be washed away by the storm and by overtopping.

[seemslikeadream]

39. So now you are an expert on my whereabouts and American levees?

[Taxloss]

40. Your whereabouts were clear from your original post.

If you had been there yourself you would have said.

And the design of American levees has been in the news rather a lot lately, for some reason.

[seemslikeadream]

48. You are mistaken

[Taxloss]

49. About what?

If you were near the levee breach, why not post a first-person account?

If I'm mistaken about levee design ... how? What did the Guardian and the BBC get so wrong?

On edit: The BBC on levee design and the efforts to plug the breaches:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4209394.stm



Looks like a concrete wall supported by an earth bank to me.

[Must_B_Free]

62. The Levim are the congregation caste

who support the priestly caste and the logistical caste...

[Roland99]

21. From what I've read, the 17th St. was undercut, Industrial was overtopped.

The 17th St. Canal was undercut, meaning water heading down the canal was washing away the ground under the levee wall. Once enough ground was washed away, the wall gave and booosh!


As for Industrial Canal, it was overtopped and I guess that made it eventually fail.


Not sure on the third one.


You might check around on http://www.nola.com

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Roland99]

27. How did a barge get in the canal?

[Zynx]

70. Cat 4/5 hurricane?

[Catchawave]

51. Makes sense

Afterall some of those Casino barges broke their moaring and got pushed inland.

Welcome to DU free!! :hi:

[FloridaPat]

37. But the 17th St. Canal doesn't go anywhere. How can it "flow"?

[Roland99]

50. It takes on water from the lake. The winds were from the north and...

blew the storm-surge filled waters of the lake to the south.

[tx_dem41]

25. I grew up in New Orleans and still have family there....it happened..

exactly as they always described it could. Water washing over the levee, thus destabilizing the integrity of the levee.

When you're under sea level, you can't "shut off" a canal.

[Jersey Devil]

30. It was that Dutch kid, took his finger out of the dike again

He is incorrigible.

[Generic Other]

31. This is just some bit I heard on tv the other night

A black comedian whose name escapes me said he was in Baton Rouge to find family. He said a friend told him he lived near the levee and had seen two unmanned barges break through after which the water started pouring in. A bunch of reporters immediately plasted the guy with questions and he said this is just what a friend hasd told him.

I haven't heard this reported anywhere else. Sorry, I can't remember the comedian's name.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

42. That was Steve Harvey

being interviewed, I believe, on Faux news.

I saw that interview. Very interesting revelation.

[Generic Other]

66. Thank you, I have been wondering about that clip ever since

and mad at myself for failing to catch his name.

[Xithras]

32. It's really simple, actually.

The main levee that broke essentially consisted of a big pile of dirt with a wall on top of it. When the water came over the top of the wall (we know how high the storm surge was, and know it would have topped the wall), it would have created a 6-8 foot tall waterfall as it pured into the city.

Walk into your backyard, grab a garden hose, and allow the water to pour onto the dirt from a height of 6 feet for a half hour or so, and let me know how deep the resulting hole is.

Quite simply, the pouring water washed away the dirt behind the wall. That dirt held the wall up, so when enough washed away, the wall simply fell over. At that point a small wall of water would have poured over the remaining portion of the levee, scouring it to ground level in minutes.

I've watched levees break. ANY flow of water over the top of them will cause a failure fairly quickly.

[onenote]

38. thanks xitrhas

Not that your info will slow down the tinfoil hat types.

onenote

[Land Shark]

actually the nontinfoil hatters are often the MOST illogical of all...

virtually ANY OLD PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION will be enough to get them to MOVE ON.

When an investigation needs to be done. Consider all possibilities. weight all evidence.

when any plausible excuse is enough, you'd rarely get a conviction in any criminal case. There's always Smutherdude (he commits a lot of crimes). Hey, it coulda been. It's PLAUSIBLE.

SOme plausible innocent theories. Some other theories. The actual history of dynamiting LA levees. The first baby steps in an investigation, we don't know who's right.

But a lot of you KNOW what's right just by doing the tinfoil hat litmus test.

C'mon. Get all the facts.

[spooked911]

55. which levee was this? becuase the main one that broke was on the 17th st

canal and was a concrete and steel wall-- not an earthen levee.

[Taxloss]

60. A concrete wall supported by an earth bank. n/t

[Zynx]

71. Yes, and that wall was built on earth and clay. This can erode very fast.

[Ms. Toad]

64. Anyone who ever raced a well to get enough siphon tubes

going after the water got high enough, but before the incoming water ran over the low spot in the irrigation ditch, can tell you what happened - and can tell you that if a small breach isn't plugged immediately the ditch (or levee in this case) is a goner.

Course, given the relative extinction of ditch irrigation in recent years and the limited geographical of the practice at its peak, there probably aren't more than a handful here who even know what I'm talking about. If you do, raise your hand and wave :hi:

[alcibiades_mystery]

68. Dead on accurate

And in language even the tin foil fools should understand.

But they won't.

"You've seen levees fail? But did you see this one fail?" :rofl: And they call Bush "anti-science"!!

Nice work.

[ignatius 2]

78. You know,after 9-11 in the beginning, any of us who

asked questions,gave theories that wasn't the BUSHBOTS line,were called nutcase,tin foil hatters,conspiracy nuts.etc..etc..etc,ad nauseum.

Much of what was discussed in those days by the so-called nuts now many people believe as well.

Only a fool or a troll would try to stop discussions on this or any issue involving Bush and his minions. These people lied to start a war that has killed thousands,they did nothing despite so very much pre 9-11 evidence,,they are not to be trusted. If you don't like these questions now being asked, why don't you ignore them instead of calling those who are rightfully suspicious tin foil fools ?

Perhaps this was a disaster caused only by mother nation, but then again, maybe there is something else going on.

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. Discuss away

I still get to think you're a fool, though. See how free speech works?

[ignatius 2]

81. Think what you like,but keep that mind open.

n/t

[John Doe II]

34. NYT

"A breach under these conditions was ultimately not surprising," he said last night. "I had hoped that we had overdesigned it to a point that it would not fail. But you can overdesign only so much, and then a failure has to come."

No one expected that weak spot to be on a canal that, if anything, had received more attention and shoring up than many other spots in the region. It did not have broad berms, but it did have strong concrete walls.

Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said that was particularly surprising because the break was "along a section that was just upgraded."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/national/nationalspecial/01levee.html

[bassman79]

41. C-4

[ProfessorGAC]

52. Ever Seen C-4 Explode?

I have. There would be no doubt if it were C-4. If you haven't seen or heard the detonation of an HX, you might want to consider your opinion more carefully.
The Professor

[chicagiana]

74. Have you seen what water does to evidence ...

Any evidence from such an explosion would have been washed away.

If the engineers seem to think the high water is enough to weaken the structure, that's good enough for me. I know damn well what happens once you get ANY leak in a water barrier. The equation for water pressure tells the story all too clearly.

However, I still wouldn't put it beyond the BFEE to tip things over once they're unstable. They were callous enough to ignore this disaster. And then they were callous enough to actively prevent aid from reaching the victims. Now the coverup is on the way in full force.

[DoYouEverWonder]

44. NAGIN ASKED FEMA FOR COPTERS BEFORE THE BREACH

Here's he account that was reported in the local press the next day.


Nagin: Entire City Will Soon Be Underwater
Problems Escalate To 'Another Level'

POSTED: 10:02 pm CDT August 30, 2005
UPDATED: 11:01 pm CDT August 30, 2005


New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin is "very upset" that an attempt to fix the breach in the levee at the 17th Street canal has failed, and he said the challenges that the city is facing have "escalated to another level."

"The sandbagging that we had hoped would happen didn't materialize today, so the water continued to rise at that particular location," he said.

In an exclusive interview with WDSU anchor Norman Robinson, Nagin said the rising water has caused the generators to stop operating because the water got too high. Due to that, Nagin said he's been advised by the head technician at the sewage and water board that water in the east bank area of Orleans and Jefferson parishes will rise to levels equal to Lake Pontchartrain.

"It's going to rise to 3 feet above seal level. For example, St. Charles Avenue is 6 feet below sea level, there will most likely be 9 feet of water on St. Charles Avenue," Nagin said.

Also, if residents are in a part of city that is 10 feet below sea level, Nagin said the levels will probably rise to 13 feet of water.

He said the "bowl is now filling up" and the entire city will soon be underwater.

Nagin said the sandbagging was scheduled for midday, but the Blackhawk helicopters needed to help did not show up. He said the sandbags were ready and all the helicopter had to do was "show up." He said after his afternoon helicopter tour of the city, he was assured that officials had a plan and a timeline to drop the sandbags on the levee breach.

He said he was told that the helicopters may have been diverted to rescue about 1,000 people in a church, but he is still not sure who gave the order.

http://www.wdsu.com/weather/4917809/detail.html

[spooked911]

59. Yes! Whoever gave this order to divert the helicopters is critical

I can't believe there would be a priority MORE urgent than trying to plug the levee.

[cthrumatrix]

67. I think Nagin knows...all in due time...all in due time

[DoYouEverWonder]

45. Water Pressure

They didn't need bombs or any other crap. There was too much water and it had to go somewhere.

[bassman79]

46. Maybe. We'll Call It LIHOP For Now.

[DoYouEverWonder]

47. Bush didn't have to do anything

That's what he does, Nothing.

Bush is a major FLOP and 9-11 was a FLOP, the Anthrax attack was a FLOP and Katrina is a FLOP.

A Failure to Lead On Purpose.

[Loge23]

53. it was the canal

There's a discussion on another thread about the article in today's WSJ. Yes, I hate their opinions also, but their Katrina coverage has been quite good.
Apparently a freighter bashed into the Industrial Canal wall. this breach likely caused the most damage.
Link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4685898

[DoYouEverWonder]

58. WSJ

I was looking for those three letters. Thanks.

[mcscajun]

61. Water is Powerful. You don't need terrorism to breach a levee

Which is basically just a big earthenworks blockade; they're not made of concrete. If Bush hadn't made extreme cuts to flood control projects plus budget cuts to the US Army Corps of Engineers budget, they might have been reinforced properly, and in time. Because he didn't, all that stood between New Orleans and disaster was DIRT. There were no "foundations" per se. Just DIRT.

It wasn't the storm surge that did it, but the extreme winds on the back end of the hurricane as it passed through New Orleans. Surf was UP.

The NPR report, echoed in other places, particularly engineering and scientific projections of what might happen before Katrina ever hit, explain that once the water begins to pour over the top of the earthenworks levees, the force of the water would be sufficient to scour away at the base. The damage then would become progressive, as the levee gets hit on both ends.

Again, the force of the water makes it extremely difficult to fix the breach while the water is still pouring in.

BushCo has to answer for WHY they cut not only the funds for flood control projects, but the US Army Corps of Engineers budget.

[Strelnikov_]

65. No Details, But Here Is My Analysis

1) The breach did not result from overtopping. We would have seen evidence of extensive erosion damage around the mouth of the canal and on the east side levee that apparently remained in the dry.

2) I have seen a few mentions about a barge strike. Possible, as a relatively small break in the concrete floodwall could have widened due to erosive forces. The thing is, I would have thought the barge would have been pulled through the hole. A picture posted on DU last Tue. morning about 8:00 AM did not show a barge anywhere in the area.

3) Erosive action removing passive resistance from the front of the concrete floodwall, resulting in a section of the floodwall tipping over. One thing that puzzled me about the picture noted above was that there was an earth berm in front of the concrete floodwall on the east side, but none apparent along the west side. Considering the proximity of the breach to the bridge, it is possible that debris on the bridge resulted in concentrated flow along the west side of the channel, causing erosion of the berm and subsequent failure. The wild card here is the cross section of the floodwall, specifically how deep did the foundation go.

4) Sliding/slope failure of the levee. In the picture referenced above, it appeared that a contiguous section of the concrete floodwall, on an earth mound, had pushed up against the house to the west of the levee. Also note in recent pictures the turf covered earthen mound up against the house. It looks out of place.

An article noted the following "No one expected that weak spot to be on a canal that, if anything, had received more attention and shoring up than many other spots in the region. It did not have broad berms, but it did have strong concrete walls." The wider the base (berms), the more resistance to sliding failure.

This would be more likely to occur the longer the water was up against the wall, subject to seepage. Also, all it would take would be 100-200' discontinuity in foundation material, something that could be missed by borings during design, or not investigated in a retrofit facility.


My leading candidates, 3 or 4. That mound of turf covered earth pushed up against the house bothers me.

[Jacobin]

80. Why has no one in this thread not seen

the multiple documentaries that have aired for years on what would happen to N.O. levees if hit by a cat 4 or 5 hurricane?

The ignorance and tinfoil is overwhelming

[Silverhair]

82. There is another DU thread that shows pictures of the guilty barge.

The levee at the south end of the Industrial Canal does indeed appear to have been breeched by a barge that the storm tore lose from it's moorings.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4688677&mesg_id=4688677

and the pictures:

http://www.dfwforums.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=124&mode=&order=0&thold=0

So one of the holes WAS knocked in by a grain barge.

[Technowitch]

83. Locking

Answer: Because we can't prove it wasn't aliens or mole-people, either.

The levees broke because (1) level 4 hurricane and (2) deliberate Bush Administration and Republican-controlled Congressional underfunding and malfeasance. Calm down already.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator