What I Tell The Freeps That Bitch About Mayor Nagin And The Buses...

[DistressedAmerican]

Nagin evacuated 80% of the city before the storm made landfall.

FEMA estimated in its last simulation of such an event (the now famous "Hurricane Pam" simulation) that at best we could expect 60% to evacuate the city.

Nagin saved 20% more than FEMA thought was even possible.

What's more he got 80% evacuated without the feds lifting a finger to help!

I couldn't care less about their bus photo. I have hundreds of thousands of living, breathing SURVIVORS to point to. This man saved 80% of his city's residents before the storm ever hit.

Any freep that can look those facts in the face and still try to hang the blame on him if either fucking lying or completely drunk on Repug Kool Aid.

Mayor Nagin is a national hero!

He can not be made the scapegoat by this evil, corrupt and illegitimate executive!

ON EDIT: Tracked this info for the skeptical freeps you meet.

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/incaseofemrgencyexercise.htm

-SNIP-
"In advance of such a storm, officials expect public pleas for evacuation to be only half successful.

In New Orleans, when evacuees from other areas who seek shelter in the city are accounted for, only a third of the population will leave before the storm hits, according to the Pam scenario. That's partly a recognition of the city's poor population: As many as 100,000 live in households in which no one owns a car, officials say. "

-MORE AT LINK-

[ohioliberal]

1. I couldn't agree with you more!!!!! n/t

[Birthmark]

2. Even if they were correct about Nagin...

...which they are NOT, it wouldn't excuse the abysmal response by the Bush Administration. And it certainly had nothing to do with the equally impotent response in Mississippi. This is something that the amoral Bush defenders DON'T want to talk about. Stick their faces in it, though. It'll do you a world of good. :)

[smoogatz]

17. Exactly.

Nagin's response, whether heroic or criminal, isn't relevant to any discussion of the Federal response. It's the usual Rove tactic of changing the subject by smearing your critics. My own take on Nagin is that, yes, he succesfully evacuated 80% of the city, and yes, he may have under-utilized some assets. But people have to remember a couple of things: first, he had every reason to expect a timely and energetic Federal response, which wasn't forthcoming. And, New Orleans is not a wealthy city--its fire and police departments are notoriously undermanned and underequipped. They did a lot with pretty limited resources.

[toopers]

3. Just out of interest . . .

Did Nagin or any other local authority provide transportation out of the city for the residents before the hurricane?

[DistressedAmerican]

9. Many My Understanding-People Were Being Evacuated By Bus. But The Traffic

jam ups resulted in a couple of folks dying of heat exhaustion and dehydration on one or more busses. At which point it was decided that busing folks out was not effective at that point. That is my understanding.

Maybe someone has a link for this info? I do not have one handy. But, I will look.

[Pirate Smile]

19. Here was a post yesterday on this:

Proof - NAGIN did USE the SCHOOL BUSES to take people out
Edited on Wed Sep-07-05 04:06 AM by DoYouEverWonder

at least until 3 people died on one probably because of being stuck in traffic and the HEAT for so long.

Traffic was backed up for hours with people trying to leave NO. Keep in mind school buses have no AC or bathrooms. Imagine beginning stuck with a bus full of people and no where to go to the bathroom.

After this is appears that Nagin stopped using the buses and begged FEMA to send Greyhound type buses instead to take people out.

Once again, it looks like Nagin did everything humanly possible while FEMA was too worried about maintaining a good image to bother saving lives.



UPDATED: 9:26 am CDT August 29, 2005

3 Die While Fleeing Storm

An official with the East Baton Rouge Parish Coroner's Office said three residents of a New Orleans nursing home fleeing Hurricane Katrina aboard a school bus died Sunday during an evacuation to a Baton Rouge church.

The names, ages and sexes of the dead were not available.

Don Moreau, chief of operations, said the coroner's office responded to a call from emergency medical technicians to a Baptist church, which was the destination for the bus of nursing home patients. Once there, Moreau said one person was dead inside the church and another was found dead inside the bus.

He said the person in the bus appeared to have been dead for some time.

http://www.wdsu.com/news/4909184/detail.html

[DistressedAmerican]

23. Thanks! Hadn't Gotten To Looking It Up Yet.

[Igel]

45. It remains to be seen.

There's one report of a nursing home using a school bus; it doesn't say who organized it, and I don't engage in hero worship. In other words, just because Nagin's a hero and someone tried to use a bus isn't anywhere near sufficient grounds for asserting that Nagin tried to use a bus to evacuate them.

The suspicious thing is, that's the sole report. Sort of a slim tack to try to hang all of New Orleans on.

But the evacuation plan--once buses out of city was discarded--did call for using RTA buses to go around the city and pick up people for transport to the Superdome. That did, it seems, take place.

[DoYouEverWonder]

114. Finally found tangible proof - Buses picked up people from 12 locations

Sunday, August 28, 2005

Around 112,000 Orleanians do not own cars, according to census data. Nagin urged those people to seek rides with friends, family, neighbors and church members. Those who could not find rides were urged to get to the Superdome as quickly as possible.

Regional Transit Authority buses were scheduled to ferry people to the dome from 12 locations around the city beginning at noon today.

Meantime, to make sure word of the mandatory evacuation gets out, Nagin said that police and fire crews would be driving through neighborhoods Sunday with bullhorns, directing people to leave.

The evacuation order contained exemptions for certain people, including city, state and federal officials, inmates of the parish prison, those in hospitals, tourists staying in hotels and members of the media.

An emergency order Nagin announced Sunday in declaring the mandatory evacuation gives authorities the right to commandeer private buildings and vehicles — including boats — as they see fit.

The mayor did not say which buildings might be seized for public use. For the time being, the Superdome will be used as a “shelter of last resort” for those unable to evacuate the city. If the dome fills to capacity, other buildings could be appropriated, Nagin said.

Nagin said the dome’s availability to residents doesn’t mean that going there is a good idea.


http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08_28.html

[DistressedAmerican]

115. Thank You. I Knew It Was Out There. Let the Freeps Suck On That!

Of course they are giving this a look at some other sites by now. And certainly the lurkers and active troll types are checking in on the proceedings over here.

So, chew on what DoYouEverWonder is bringing to the table!

I'll be stashing that link for future debunking fun!

[DoYouEverWonder]

116. I knew it was buried somewhere

it was just a matter of digging around long enough.

What I want to know next is who authorized the Superdome to be used has a shelter? Red Cross supposedly had never certified any building in NO has a suitable shelter. That is why Nagin keeps telling people it is a shelter of last resort and to try to get out of town.

[DistressedAmerican]

117. Great Catch To Be Sure. I Think The Lid Is Nailed Down Pretty Tightly

with that little documentary nugget!

He was telling them go and doing everything in his power to get them out by hook or crook as they say.

80% is hard to be quibbled with when the feds figure 60%!

[DoYouEverWonder]

28. Yes

It was part of their emergency planning.

They even broadcast an 800# for people to call who needed rides.

80% is an incredible success rate for evacuating any city.

[mzteris]

4. Great post

I would love to have a link to those stats, though......

[DistressedAmerican]

10. If I Remember Correctly It Was Said On CNN. Let Me Look.

I'll try to track a good one...

[DistressedAmerican]

12. Here You Go!

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/incaseofemrgencyexercise.htm

-SNIP-
"In advance of such a storm, officials expect public pleas for evacuation to be only half successful.

In New Orleans, when evacuees from other areas who seek shelter in the city are accounted for, only a third of the population will leave before the storm hits, according to the Pam scenario. That's partly a recognition of the city's poor population: As many as 100,000 live in households in which no one owns a car, officials say. "

-MORE AT LINK-

[OctOct1]

5. Thank you for this

It will help me slam some repug email.
They are determined to blame the local Government

[FormerDittoHead]

6. Trying to have it both ways...

Bush* is trying to argue that NOLA was the "unpredictable perfect storm" and that Bush* can't be held responsible for knowing that such thing(s) could happen.

Is the MAYOR supposed to know more than Bush?

Otherwise, where was Nagin suppose to TAKE these people? Is EVERY city supposed to be able to supply tent cities outside in case of something like a terrorist attack? Is New York City so prepared? Los Angeles?

[marmar]

7. Some idiot from N. Carolina just called into CSPAN...

to bitch about Nagin. These people are a national cancer.

[DemonFighterLives]

24. Wasn't he something

Every other word was democrat this and that. Loud too!
:freak:

[brainshrub]

8. Right on!

What do cowardly chicken-hawks know about leadership? Last time I checked, 80% was higher than 60%. And unlike the Bush, Mayor Nagin showed genuine concern for the plight of his people.

As usual, the RW complain the loudest about what they are most guilty of: short-sightedness, neglect and gross incompetence.

[Paradise]

11. he did the best job of all of them put together... n/t

[Tatiana]

49. I agree.

Out of all the officials, Nagin did the best job. He was juggling so many things:

1) Securing prisoners (you know, convicted murderers, rapists, etc.) From all accounts, not one prisoner escaped. The plan to secure them was flawlessly executed.

2) Evacuating the population. As stated numerous times, evacuating 80% of a major metropolis is phenomenal. Nobody seems to talk about how CITY BUSES were utilized before the storm hit (these are primarily the buses those who dialed the 800 # used).

3) Attempting to repair the 17th street canal breach. He had developed a plan to repair the breach to keep water from completely entering downtown and flooding the city. The only problem was that the mayor didn't have a fleet of Black Hawks to drop the 3,000 lb. sandbags. He requested assistance from the government to help accomplish this, was told the choppers were on their way. Of course, we all know they never came.

4) Dispatching police and firemen to save countless people trapped on their rooftops, sometimes breaking away ventilators to reach people.

5) Being the first official to tell the truth, to place the blame where it belonged... on the Bush administration. He shamed them into sending Gen. Honore to the region. Obviously his rant worked, because he kissing a$$ up to that point by other officials was getting Louisiana NO HELP WHATSOEVER.

I'm tired of people blaming Nagin. His response was admirable and I can think of no other person who could have saved more people in those circumstances.

[Paradise]

107. hi Tatiana,

i couldn't say it the way you did but i knew it. perfect... thanks :thumbsup:

[CanOfWhoopAss]

13. Excellent Post- Thanks for sharing! eom

[Celebration]

14. just say so what

Unless you live in New Orleans, you don't vote for the mayor and your tax money doesn't pay him!! Same with the governor. The question is whether our national response was adequate.

(It seems to me he did an adequate job but that is really beside the point. If this is about future responses and not pointing the finger as they claim, it is the national response that has to be scrutinized.)

[DistressedAmerican]

15. Since This Is The Administration's Biggest Spin. It DOES Matter.

Sorry, but if we let the feds hang the mayor with ths there will NEVER be accountability.

This is not about "saving" the mayor or Governor. It is about making sure the record is straight and not spun into cottom candy for the nation.

It matters quite a bit!

[WildClarySage]

16. If you see a toddler about to walk into a busy street, you don't

stand around and wait to see what the child's mom or dad will do. You don't wring your hands and ask where the parents are. You dart out and stop him before he wanders into traffic. Then you deal with who should have done what.

Just because buses were in NO, doesn't mean that there were drivers, money for gas, places to take them to or any guarantee that they would be safe when they left NO. The worst place to be stranded would be on a bus on a highway out of town. The casualty rate would have been even higher if the buses had been utilized but were unable to evacuate to safety. And there was no reason to think that traffic conditions would permit them to leave, considering how many people reported they had to turn around and ride it out at home since the roads were blocked by the mass exodus.

[mwb970]

20. Silly - you're using logic.

Haven't you heard? That doesn't work with Freepers or Bushies. You have to tie it in with Jesus, or lower taxes for rich people, or killing Arabs.

[Skittles]

18. this is what I would tell them

if Mayor Nagin TRULY was INCOMPETENT that would be even MORE REASON for the FEDS to GET THEIR ASS TO NEW ORLEANS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. In other words, not only is their silly notion that a few school buses could evacuate 100,000 people FALSE, the argument is just plain ASININE TOO

[malta blue]

21. Damn Straight DA!

The KKKarl Rove spin machine has been working overtime to "stop playing the blame game" put all the blame on Nagin and Blanco. Seems to me that Nagin did all he could possibly do to save the people of the city of New Orleans.

Consider this:
8/26: Blanco declares State of Emergency and ASKS for TROOPS.

8/27: Blanco asks for Federal State of Emergency, which is declared.

8/28: Nagin orders evacuation. Bu$h was warned of LEVEE FAILURE by the National Weather Service.

Bu$h continued on with his vacation, cake-eating and guitar strumming while people DIED.

Nagin BEGGED for help, even going so far as sending a desperate "SOS" on 9/1, the same day Bu$h told GMA that no one had anticipated the levees would break.

Unbelievable.

[DistressedAmerican]

25. To Paraphrase Jon Stewart Last Night...

The only people that do not want "to play the blame game" are to blame!

VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION! VACATION!

Fucker!

[Rainscents]

70. Jon sig last night........... Meet The F%$kers!!! LOL

[aikoaiko]

101. 8/26: Blanco declares State of Emergency and ASKS for TROOPS.

Can you provide a link for this? I need to back this claim up.

[geekgrrl]

22. thanks! I'll use this on my semi-freeper officemate today! nt

[mrcheerful]

26. Of course

Isn't that what the republicans and the sheepacans do best? Blame others for their screw ups? Ever noticed that when GW is caught with his pants down, he looks like a deer caught in the head lights of a car? Look back, every since Ronnie, drug pusher,Reagan its been blame the democrats and liberals for whats wrong with america, and as you can see it works very well for them. Look at how the sheepacans, who for the most part work hard to make a buck, blame socal programs for tax dollars being wasted and don't get it, corparate welfare uses 10 times the amount of tax dollars. Blame the poor for the lack of jobs seems to be the mind set. Where did they get this from? The republican spin doctors. Look how they took 2 decorated war vets and made them look like cowards but GW was a hero because he was in the national gaurd, what the hell was that about? Blame game.

[ThoughtCriminal]

27. Don't think of it as 20% more - think half as many left

If FEMA estimated 60% could be evacuated, and the city managed to evacuate 80%, that means only 20% remained vs. 40% predicted.

I ask them where these buses were supposed to go since FEMA had no arrangements.

[Pepper32]

29. If we can get the media to start saying this we can change the tone

It's crazy how they say we are playing the blame game yet they are blaming Mayor Naggin.

We need to point this out to the media.

[Pepper32]

30. self deleted

Apparently my post and posted twice ....lol

Not sure how that happened.

[jmowreader]

31. Nagin saved 33 percent more than FEMA estimated

Here's how it works:

FEMA said 60 percent of the city could be evacuated, but Mayor Nagin got 80 percent out.

Don't work the additional percentage from the total, work it as a percentage of the FEMA estimate--80 percent minus 60 percent is 20 percent, which goes into 60 percent three times. Hence, one-third more people were saved than FEMA thought, or 33 percent.

But it's a hell of a job no matter how you calculate it.

[DistressedAmerican]

32. AAAAAHHHH! MATH! MY SWORN ENEMY!

Good point though!:applause:

[Stand and Fight]

33. Great thread to debate FReeper nonsense...

Recommending because this will be really healthy in tearing down their lies. Thanks so much!

[SnoopDog]

34. Can you provide the link or calculation for the 80 percent?

This is important information I need. My local paper had a LTTE who said Nagin did a lousy job - I want to refute that.

Thanks in advance...

[DistressedAmerican]

35. It Has Been Widely Reported. Let Me Look...

[DistressedAmerican]

38. Here Is An AP Story That Was Carried Widely.

One of the many versions that came up with a search...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002462097_webkatrina31.html

-SNIP-
The sweltering city of 480,000 people — an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in over the weekend — had no drinkable water, the electricity could be out for weeks, and looters were ransacking stores around town.

-MORE AT LINK-

Some more of the results (page one) in case you need more sources:

Hurricane Katrina: Search for Survivors Continues
The sweltering city of 480000 people-- an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed
orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in over the weekend-- had no drinkable ...
channelone.com/news/2005/09/01/ap_katrina/ - 31k - Sep 7, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

Associated Press
The sweltering city of 480000 people _ an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed
orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in over the weekend _ also had no ...
portage.scwn.com/articles/ 2005/08/31/ap/headlines/d8casrho1.txt - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

MPR: `Engineering nightmare': Water keeps rising in New Orleans
The sweltering city of 480000 people - an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed
orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in over the weekend - also had no ...
news.minnesota.publicradio.org/ features/2005/08/31_ap_katrina3/ - 45k - Cached - Similar pages

Chicago Tribune | Governor: Everyone Must Leave New Orleans
The sweltering city of 480000 people -- an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed
orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in over the weekend -- also had no ...
www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ sns-ap-hurricane-katrina,1,5230625.story?coll=chi-news-hed - Similar pages

KUTV: Rising Water, Rising Concern
The sweltering city of 480000 people an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed
orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in over the weekend also had no ...
kutv.com/topstories/topstories_story_243072814.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

Wired News
The sweltering city of 480000 people _ an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed
orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in over the weekend _ had no drinkable ...
wireservice.wired.com/wired/story. asp?section=Breaking&storyId=1082875 - 29k - Cached - Similar pages

The Seattle Times: Nation & World: Thousands are probably dead in ...
The sweltering city of 480000 people — an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed
orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in over the weekend — had no drinkable ...
seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/ nationworld/2002462097_webkatrina31.html - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

Katrina may have killed thousands in New Orleans, mayor says ...
The sweltering city of 480000 people -- an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed
orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in over the weekend -- had no drinkable ...
www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?tl=1&display=rednews/ 2005/08/31/build/nation/25-neworleans-katrina.inc - 28k - Cached - Similar pages

Dallas Morning News | News for Dallas, Texas | Latest News
The sweltering city of 480000 people – an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed
orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in over the weekend – had no drinkable ...
www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/ dn/latestnews/stories/090105dnnatkatrina.f786f2e.html - 126k - Cached - Similar pages

The Albuquerque Tribune: Local
The sweltering city of 480000 people - an estimated 80 percent of whom obeyed
orders to evacuate as Katrina closed in during the weekend - also had no ...
www.abqtrib.com/albq/nw_local/ article/0,2564,ALBQ_19858_4044052,00.html - 31k - Sep 7, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

[SnoopDog]

40. Thank you very much... I can now write my LTTE.

These Repuks all over the USA write these repuk 'talking point' letters. I take it upon myself to refute these evil people at every chance. Unfortunately, the newspapers have limits as to how many times they can publish a person's LTTE per month.

Thanks again!

[DistressedAmerican]

43. My Pleasure. Please Post What You Write!

Would love to read it.

There is no limit on how many times a month you can appear here! I'm living proof of that!

Way to help spread truth to the befuddled!
:applause:

[SnoopDog]

46. Here is the LTTE that I will respond to...

The following is the letter that prompted me to ask my question of you. It is this kind of stuff that really bothers me. Also, have you noticed that the majority of their talking points are 1) State and local's fault, and of course 2) looting.

Never do they dive into the disgusting point of how the government purposefully then and now are holding back aid and assistance. We all know that this government is purposefully allowing these people to die - I call that murder.

Also, I want to thank you for 'managing' your post. I appreciate when posters answer questions and provide more dialog to their own post.

So, thanks again.... I will post my response later. (I have had several LTTE's published!)


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Where was city’s emergency plan?

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin was quoted as saying, ”I need reinforcements. I need troops, man. I need 500 buses ... Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get that (expletive) moving to New Orleans ... This is a major, major, major deal. I can’t emphasize that enough.”

I’ve read other such comments from Mr. Nagin complaining of the slow response. My question to Mr. Nagin is: Where was your emergency plan to help your own people in New Orleans? Where is the state of Louisiana’s contingency plan to assist its people in a disaster? Is your plan to sit and gripe and complain to the federal government?

I’ve seen little evidence of anything that the city of New Orleans had in place to aid its own people. Why wasn’t martial law declared early on by the governor of Louisiana to stop the criminal element from taking over?

Of course, our federal government and the states will always respond, but every city has the responsibility to make plans to help its own.

The local government is the closest first-responders to a local disaster. Their first response would take care of folks until help arrives from elsewhere.

Kathy Venters, Reno

Link http://rgj.com/news/stories/html/2005/09/07/108289.php?sps=rgj.com&sch=Opinion&sp1=rgj&sp2=Opinion&sp3=Opinion&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=opinion&jsmultitag=news.rgj.com/news/opinion
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[DistressedAmerican]

48. Crush Her! She Knows Not Of Which She Speaks! We Do Though!

[SnoopDog]

47. Edit out double post

[lonestarnot]

36. NAGIN FOR PRESIDENT! A TRUE LEADER!

[Sequoia]

37. Him and the Chief of Police too.

They did all they could to save people with the little they had.

[magnolia]

39. I'm with you 100%!

That picture of the 2,000 buses that the freeps have framed in gold...isn't worth anything unless they have a picture of 2,000 bus drivers! Finding 2,000 people to drive buses after a mandatory evacution wouldn't be easy. Even some of the police chose to leave and protect their families instead of doing their jobs...which was not Nagin's fault.

Nagin was a constant presence. He lost his own home and didn't get a shower until he got on Air Force One. To imply that he did less than Guiliani is ridiculous.

Nagin needs to me Man of the Year on Time magazine...and at the top of the list of 50 Most Beautiful People in People Magazine.

[DistressedAmerican]

41. He Is Certainly More Of A Stud Than Rudy.

I think he should head on up to NYC and steal Rudy's lady. I'll let her decide who is the better mayor!

[McCamy Taylor]

42. Excellent Talking Points!

[Julius Civitatus]

44. Good point. Pass it along. Make sure people know!

This has to spread far and wide.

[redqueen]

53. Kick

:kick:

[smartvoter]

50. We need to get this to the DUer who wrote yesterday that

he or she was ganged up on by Freepers at work who were dead-set on blaming this on the locals.

If I were in those shoes, I would print this story out, walk in and say,

"Yesterday, I disengaged because I new the facts weren't on your side. Here are the results of a Federal simulation that estimated that the locals could only get out a third of the population, with the best-case being 60%. Nagin got 80% out, far exceeding anything that was believed possible. The Feds dropped the ball on the last 20% of the population and he's been screaming for the help to arrive since Day One. I'll leave this with you so you can read it for yourself and run out and consult the Hive Queen on what your next baseless position will be."

I just don't remember who it was to notify them of this...

This is a GREAT find, BTW. I am using it to beat down some Right Wingers right now.

[OrlandoGator]

51. Katrina was a FEDERAL EMERGENCY two days before landfall.

n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

52. God bless him

He is a hero. The freeps can't stand it because they're not republicans. *sigh*

[RageFist]

54. Real eye opener thank you! n/t

[smartvoter]

55. We need to get this story into every party leader's hands, and to the

media as well. This is a slam-dunk case. There is no rebuttal to this, other than try and ignore it, so the more who say it, the less like it is they can ignore it.

This would be a great DU Activist Corps task -- getting this story out...

[HoosierClarkie]

56. Thanks.

Just got a freepy e-mail yesterday about this.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blue neen]

58. If you were Nagin what would you have done?

Let's hear your suggestions.

What manpower was he supposed to use to get those poor and infirm out of the city? There weren't any FEDERAL troops there to help.

Should the blind have been enlisted to drive the buses? Were the people in wheelchairs supposed to go house to house and evacuate the others? Maybe they could have taken the residents out of the nursing homes to direct traffic. :sarcasm:




edited for grammar

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

62. Volunteer bus drivers?

Sorry, it's a job that requires training.

Nagin did what he could. Bush let everybody down.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Falalalalala]

112. Bus Driver Award

I am a retired school bus driver....120 lb. female. It is a matter of an I-Can-Do attitude or Uncle Sam, Save me, I am drowning habit of living. I believe I heard that there was one young man with this "I-Can-Do" attitude who loaded a confiscated school bus and drove New Orleaneans to the Astrodome in Houston and to safety. By the way, I would guess the school bus, taxpayer's property, was also saved.

[smartvoter]

63. Did you even read the simulation story? Seriously, I don't like

to dismiss positions, but the estimate was that only 33% could get out and the best case was 60% and he got 80% out.

I really don't get your position. (Honestly -- I am not beating up on your position, but I don't get it -- it's fluff when we know that in terms of what is concrete Nagin did a hell of a job.)

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blue neen]

65. "It was the poor and infirm who were left to fend for themselves."

Who out of that group was going to be able to volunteer to drive buses?

The mothers holding their babies in their arms? How about the children themselves?

"I would have found volunteers..." STOP BLAMING THE VICTIMS!

[Name removed]

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[blue neen]

71. I'll say it again--STOP BLAMING THE VICTIMS.

You're poor. You don't own a car. You never did. Who is going to teach you how to drive?

And many of those "able-bodied young men and women" were caring for sick and elderly family members in addition to the children.

[Name removed]

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[blue neen]

79. You're living in reality, huh?

You see if the "volunteers" would have been able to drive the poor and infirm out of the city, as you suggest...then, THERE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ANY HORDES AT THE SUPERDOME.


I am not wasting any more time and bandwidth on your delusions.

[smartvoter]

81. I had the same thought but was holding back. It just doesn't

make sense. Also, somewhere out here, we saw the bus evacuation orders and we've seen LOADS of people trying to reconnect after they were bussed out. This is just a bizarre position and I can't figure out if it's someone joking around (they are relatively new) or if this person is serious and "in shock" from the experience of actually being there.

I'm going to drop it as well. This is similar to arguing with a neocon who is stuck on talking points. There is no acknowledgment whatsoever or the actual content of the original post and then comments that there were no busses when there were lots of them and, as you point out, there are serious logic gaps between the position and reality. Further, this person seems to think we are only defending Nagin because he's a Democrat, which suggests that any argument going forward will be written off, just as the original post is being ignored.

[DistressedAmerican]

84. Not Similar. That Is EXACTLY What Is Going On.

Don't bother with this ill reasoned nonsense.

You know where the poster is coming from. Let him spew his RW talking points to himself.

Like I said in my OP, If they can look at this info and still bitch about Nagin they are either deliberately lying or drunk on Kool Aid. I suspect the later in this case.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[DistressedAmerican]

119. Well If 80% Is Not Good Enough, You Better Start Talking To FEMA!

Their great preparedness only expected 60%. Maybe you should have started talking to them a long time ago!

Oh, How about you deal with Post #114.

Lets have no more of this he did nothing to help the poor and infirmed to get out of the city nonsense. It is a bullshit claim and the proof is there for you to wrap your mind around.

[PA Democrat]

102. Have you read any of the timeline of what transpired BEFORE the hurricane

Saturday, August 27
5AM — KATRINA UPGRADED TO CATEGORY 3 HURRICANE

GOV. BLANCO ASKS BUSH TO DECLARE FEDERAL STATE OF EMERGENCY IN LOUISIANA: “I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster.”

FEDERAL EMERGENCY DECLARED, DHS AND FEMA GIVEN FULL AUTHORITY TO RESPOND TO KATRINA: “Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency.”

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

Plenty of blame to go around, but I find it curious that you choose to blast Nagin when the feds were SUPPOSED to in charge given the fact that the state and locals told them this was beyond their capacity to deal with. Check the White House response to Blanco's request. The dumb fucks can't even read a map. They have identified all of the counties in the LEAST vulnerable parts of the state and none in the New Orleans area.

[blue neen]

86. You're right.

Any argument will be written off. Sometimes people don't want to deal with logical explanations...and there's nothing else you can do!

[Name removed]

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[blue neen]

108. I'll try this one more time.

The sick and disabled (post 58).
The elderly (post 58).
Mothers with babies (post 59).
Children (post 59).
Poor people who never owned cars and were never trained to drive (post 71).

So, the mayor deputizes hundreds of drivers from "that crowd." And once again, did he have the manpower to test those hundreds of drivers to make sure they could drive and handle a bus?

He did not have the manpower BECAUSE FEDERAL TROOPS HAD NOT BEEN SENT.
Hundreds of buses with thousands of passengers crashing all over the city and I-10 is not an acceptable alternative.

I want help dealing with my anger over Bush just "sitting there while people died." The buck stops with Bush. He ran his 2004 campaign on the premise that his administration would "keep America safer" and that he was in control.

His administration has failed beyond our wildest nightmares, and he's not even in control of himself.

[Name removed]

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[blue neen]

109. Please check my posts.

I did not mention anywhere the words Democrat or Republican. For all you know, I'm Jim Jeffords.

I also did not mention anywhere my opinion of the state. I do agree with you on the point that this event is bigger than politics.

And I am not "playing" anything. I'm grieving for my country.

[aikoaiko]

105. But there is still the issue of leaving the poor, elderly, and infirmed

Yes, Nagin, did a really good job at getting most people to get themselves out. Although calling the mandatory evacuation came a little late.

From what I've read, the existing plan (partly his) was to have a faith-based organizations do the bussing as well as have some 800# to receive requests. Someone named Gloria on DU says she watched CD explaining all this. This didn't work so well. The faith based voluneers didn't show up.

There was not a call for help to evacuate the poor, elderly and infirmed from the mayor when the city's plan failed. By then it might have been too late anyway, but starting too late could be seen as a failing as well.

Neither the state nor the fed called for a larger evacuation of the poor, elderly, and infirmed. Such an evacuation would surely have failed to get everyone out -- but as the bodies start piling up I wish the leaders had done more to get people out of the bowl of NOLA.

For all those who think I am a apologzing for bush, I am not.

The buck STARTS with the mayor but ends with President.

The leaders in charge left them there to weather the storm.

(Sorry blue neen, I didn't mean to have this post be a response to you in particular, but to the thread at large).

[blue neen]

110. Hey y'all!

It's all good. No offense taken. :hi:

[prolesunited]

78. Hey, I volunteer to drive the bus

Want to be my first passenger?

[Name removed]

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[Mutley]

93. People who have never driven a bus are supposed to just

hop right in and get going? Do you watch the Simpsons? Have you seen the episode where Homer subs for a dead truck driver, and he's driving down the road grinding the hell out of the gears? Yeah. Busses are not automatic. It takes practice to learn how to drive a manual transmission. I guess we won't even mention that many of those people are poor, didn't own cars, and many many of them probably never even learned how to drive.

[Name removed]

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[Mutley]

99. I haven't heard about a kid who drove a bus.

Good for him for figuring that out. But, you'll drop the transmission if you grind the gears like that in real life. That would look great. All those people stuck on the highway with useless busses when the storm hit. I'm sure you've seen the pics of I-10, the way it was cut up like celery. I'd rather be in my house.

I'm not trying to slam you, I'm just trying to show you the holes in your idea. Maybe Nagin could have done more to help those people get out, maybe not. We were not there. But there are much bigger problems that were caused by Bush and his buddies that should be focused on. Why did Bush cut the funding to strengthen the levees? This whole entire thing could have been avoided had those levees been rebuilt the way they should have been. Then we'd be seeing nothing worse than wind damage, which was not that bad in NO.

[DearAbby]

60. You don't find him to be a hero at all? He did what he could

after being assured that help was on the way...It was declared a federal emergency two days before the storm hit...It was up to Fema to assist in the evacuation. 80% of the population saved with no federal help is an awesome number.

[Name removed]

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[DistressedAmerican]

72. Why Do I Doubt That You Belong Here?

Nice try anyway...:eyes:

[Name removed]

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[Bridget Burke]

106. Hey, he's performing a valuable service....

Otherwise, we'd have to go beyond DU to hear the latest Right Wing Talking Points.

[Nikki Stone 1]

61. GREAT THREAD

We can't lose this info

[The Backlash Cometh]

69. Don't have time to read the detail, please explain:

Are you saying that Nagin did provide transportation for those who didn't have it? Or are you saying that he gave enough advanced warning for 80% to leave on their own?

[DistressedAmerican]

76. He Did Both! And Asked For Federal Help When His Resources Were

giving out. He should have never reached a point where his resources were giving out. Period.

[Nikki Stone 1]

73. In honor of your thread, I just asked a mod to make a sticky thread where

we can put important rebuttals to right wing talking points. I hope they will do this and that your post will be the first one on it.

Nikki

[DistressedAmerican]

77. Great Idea. Thanks!

:pals:

[krkaufman]

80. The problem with the buses is... who would drive them?

That's where the National Guard and FEMA were needed, to drive the buses. Or do they think that the same drivers taking kids to school would handle the evacuation?

I *wholly* agree that more could have been done to evacuate *more* people from New Orleans, including getting more people upriver from New Orleans (i.e. out of the Superdome) -- but I see this error as equally falling under the responsibility of the city, state *AND* Feds.

What was the plan? And was it executed?

However, the Feds -- that is, FEMA -- is almost solely to blame for the several day delay in getting any aid moving, to the Superdome, CC, and just about anywhere else!

[gauguin57]

83. One thing that bothers me about Nagin is that he's really a Republican

pretending to be a Democrat.

Wouldn't the Freepers be surprised to know that (sorta) one of their own is their current demon?

I first learned this from Keith Olbermann, and have found some other unsettling analyses of his political career since. Ray Nagin was a rich, Republican businessman who decided he wanted to be mayor, and changed his party to Dem. three years ago when he decided to run for mayor of a city where a Repug can't get elected. This was no Jim Jeffords situation -- this was a man changing his party for political expediency. *sigh*

Though he's donated to Democratic campaigns, Nagin ALSO donated to George W. Bush's primary campaign in 2000 (YUCK!) and to Billy Tauzin's campaign a couple of times (YUCK 2!). I have to stop myself from yelling at the TV screen when I hear Nagin bitching about Bush -- he contributed money to help put him in office. Nagin also endorsed the Repug instead of Kathleen Blanco in the 2003 LA runoff (she must LOVE standing next to him in the press conferences!).

Now flame away! Just presenting the facts, m'am. I just like to know exactly who it is I'm putting on a pedestel.

From Wikipedia:

"... Before his election, Nagin was a member of the Republican Party and had little political experience; he was a vice president and general manager at Cox Communications, a cable communications company and subsidiary of Cox Enterprises. Nagin did give donations periodically to candidates, namely President George W. Bush and former Republican U.S. Representative Billy Tauzin in 1999 and 2000, as well as to Democratic U.S. Senators John Breaux and J. Bennett Johnston earlier in the decade.

"Days before filing for the New Orleans Mayoral race in February 2002, Nagin switched his party registration to the Democratic Party. Shortly before the primary election, an endorsement praising Nagin as a reformer by Gambit Magazine gave him crucial momentum that would carry through for the primary election and runoff. In the first round of the crowded mayoral election in February 2002, Nagin received first place with 29% of the vote, against such opponents as Police Chief Richard Pennington, State Senator Paulette Irons, City Councilman Troy Carter and others. In the runoff with Pennington in May 2002, Nagin won with 59% of the vote. His campaign was largely self-financed.

"Shortly after taking office, Nagin launched an anti-corruption campaign within city government, which included crackdowns on the city's Taxicab Bureau and Utilities Department. Nagin also made a controversial endorsement of current Republican U.S. Representative Bobby Jindal in the 2003 Louisiana Gubernatorial Runoff over current Democratic Governor Kathleen Blanco, and only reluctantly endorsed U.S. Senator John Kerry in the 2004 Presidential race."

[gauguin57]

85. Oh ... forgot about this from The Black Commentator, 2003

http://www.blackcommentator.com/65/65_cover_louisiana.html

"Ray Nagin never sold out the Black majority in New Orleans, since he was never a Black leader, nor had he held elective office prior to winning the Mayor’s job. Nagin is precisely what he appears to be: a businessman on the make, adept at using politics to effect bigger deals, a prime advantage in the thoroughly politicized world of cable television. The former $400,000-a-year Cox Communications vice president’s main asset in the 2002 campaign was that he wasn’t part of the local Black political machinery. It also didn’t hurt to have the support of virtually the entire local corporate community.

"Nagin’s anti-corruption platform won him majorities in Black precincts, even as he opposed a Living Wage referendum that was supported by two of every three voters in the city. As reported on May 8, 2002, Nagin “donated money to George W. Bush’s presidential campaign, prompting a group of Democrats to run radio ads dubbing him ‘Ray Reagan.’ His courting of conservatives included a call for repeal of the residency law for cops, provoking outrage from the head of the city’s Black Organization of Police.”

"Black New Orleansians seem to accept as a matter of course that Nagin is a Republican with non-matching voter registration. The Mayor bears an uncanny political resemblance to another African American cable businessman: BET’s Bob Johnson, a nominal Democrat who placed himself at the service of George Bush’s anti-Estate Tax campaign, in 2001. Johnson gathered a Who’s Who of Black media owners and executives to back Bush’s regressive legislation, which would mainly benefit the very rich while draining the federal treasury of funds for social services to the many. Most of the signatories are also nominal Democrats.

"What sets this class apart from traditional Black business is their recently acquired ability to directly negotiate substantial deals with large corporations and their representatives in government, thus allowing this relatively tiny Black circle to operate at a political distance from the community at-large. Mayor Nagin, who remains a co-owner of the New Orleans hockey franchise, made a career choice to move among the Republican elite. But could he move significant numbers of African Americans into Republican voting ranks?". .......

[DistressedAmerican]

87. I Do Not Care If He Was Or Is A Republican. Nor That He Is Rich.

I really do not care at all. What I care about is that they guy evacuated 20% more folks than the feds evwen thought possible. Republican od Dem, he did a good job of handling this evacuation and he save a lot more lives than the feds will ever be able to claim.

That is leadership.

Do you dismiss his outstanding efforts because he was a rich businessman that switched parties?

If Bush had saved 80% of the city's population, I would applaud that as well. Even if the guy is a worthless fuck in all other respects. Lives over petty politics.

[gauguin57]

90. WOULD we still be applauding him if he were still officially Repug?

I can guaran-damn-tee a lot of people on this board would NOT be.

And BTW ... I said nothing about his handling of Katrina, if you'll notice. As I said, I just like to know who it is I'm putting on a pedestel. Can I help it if I'm pissed he supported George W. Bush, who is destroying our country? Has nothing to do with how I feel he's handling Katrina.

His radio news conference was one of the coolest things I've ever heard coming out of a politician's mouth!

[DistressedAmerican]

96. YES! Like I Said Lives Over Politics.

I said I'd have applauded the republican PRESIDENT if he saved 80% of the city's population. You think that would be any different for a republican MAYOR?

Some of us got over this bullshit two party system and picking a side crap long ago. I look for results. Period. When I see them I applaude those efforts. When I do not see results I call them on their incompetence.

It that so confusing? Or are you so trapped in party loyalty that you can't simply acknowledge a good job regradless of whether the person who did the good work has a (D) or an (R) by their name.

Please free your mind from the shackles of party loyalty...

[gauguin57]

98. OK, fine. Don't bother reading the rest of my post, about how I said ZERO

about how he's handling Katrina. Whatever.

I'll put up my "freedom from the shackles of party loyalty," when it comes to someone doing something heroic, against anyone's.

I only said that his taking on my party's initial for political expediency is icky. And that I think it's interesting that he's ripping Bush a new one, when he supported his ride to the White House. And that he has to stand shoulder to shoulder with Kathleen Blanco, over whom he endorsed the Republican candidate. I like to watch these little nuances among the politicos as the world crashes around their ears.

I merely said "one thing that bothers me about Nagin..." ... NOTHING about his handling of Katrina.

[DistressedAmerican]

113. Alright Fair Enough!

As an observation I certainly have no problem with that.

As long as it does not trump in your mind what the guy got done and was not intended to imply that I was only saying this because I was backing him up as a fellow dem.

That was the way I read it. My bad.

While I generally hate any repug politician based on the very party platform they endorse, I certainly spare no criticism of the dems when they are out of line (usually falling won or hiding).

Peace!

P.S. Usually reply faster but the "my posts" feature was down and out from the overload. It slipped.

[malaise]

97. While he did succeeed in getting 80% of the population out

of NO, he should have asked for volunteer drivers during that TV press conference so that the poor could escape the city. The buses should have been moved to higher ground so that people who could not leave could be bused out rather than sent to those death traps.

I haven't completed my assesment of Nagin, but the cynic in me has serious doubts about his interest in poor people - Cable company exec - get real.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. Another point:

What do you do with 100,000 poor people once you have them out of the city?

Unlike the rich, they have no credit cards to max out. They have no means of reaching relatives in distant states.

What do they do, sleep on blankets in the swamps and catch alligators for food?

[Mairead]

103. What a pity, then, that the 20% were the poor, the elderly, and the sick

And most (all?) Black, too.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

104. That is correct.

Can you say "contraflow"?

http://www.wwltv.com/weather/hurricane/evacroutes.htm

[Nikki Stone 1]

111. kick

kick

[bluedawg12]

118. It's about the Superdome stupid.

It's not about the buses before the storm it's about the four days in the Superdome after the storm and Dumbo Brownie's ineptness.

How did not using buses cause Brownie to fail to bring water and food to the dome and convention center for the rest of last week?

Besides, you can't remove people that don't want to leave, or are too sick and old too ride in a school bus.

But finally, it's because the LSU Study in 2001 said that all the buses in New Orleans could not make a difference in pre-storm evacuation.

Now, back to the Arabian horses @ss.

[laureloak]

120. LA followed the same evacuation procedures that NC does.

And every other state that I know of. It doesn't matter why they didn't leave, they were Americans that needed the federal government's help. That's why we pay taxes.

[texpatriot2004]

121. Mayor Nagin is a Hero/ Civic Saint. Thank you Mayor Nagin. n/t

[dxstone]

122. Another outtasight post!

You da man, DA...
I don't think they woulda let 'em out anyway... they sure seemed to frown on that kid stealin' a bus and getting 100 of the city's poor out; I don't see Butch givin' HIM an award or medal anytime in the near future, not in this universe anyway...
This is how I see it:
The feds paralyzed most of the efforts Nagin probably wanted to make--"Don't do ANYTHING! We're on our way!"--again and again, for days...
Then they try to blame him.
Worked on Clinton; his was an entirely besieged presidency, from every side, from day one...
What kills me is these bastards can get away with the same loony trick again and again...
Nagin's a hero in my book too... he was one of the first to speak up, possibly THE most outspoken... part of that was WHERE he was, the fact that this happened to HIM and HIS CITY... but he rose to the occasion, spoke TRUTH for a change...
Sad that such incidents are so rare, and therefore SOOO refreshing...
You go, Mr. Mayor!
d
ps: K&N!