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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:16 PM
Original message
Rep. Ron Paul - Republican Texan - OMG - DSM!!! on CSPAN!!
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TroglodyteScholar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Details? n/t
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
97. ------------- --------- -------- --------- --------- > MP3
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #97
105. You are very quick with the mp3's
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #105
108. pssst bpilgrim rocks, pass it on. :) nt
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. sure thing
I will and do all the time now. Thanks..
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #97
118. Can you summarize for me?
Edited on Fri Sep-09-05 01:21 AM by tblue37
I am severely hearing-impaired.
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bribri16 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
106. One question: Will it be re-broadcast? n.t
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Said policy was fixed around facts.
Administration used propaganda
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. at work...what? what? what?
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. thanks... n/t
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. He's got the FACTS! Not neocon talking points
No rw mentality!!!!!

This is amazing stuff!!!
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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. FINALLY!!! Someone tells the people that WE gave Saddam the WMD's
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. He's kicking ass on the war!
Talking neo-con imperialism. moral crusade
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Pam-Moby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. OMG is correct.
See the rethugs do flip flopps. Is he turning on the chimp? Sure sounds like it. LOL:rofl:
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
55. Read some of his previous speeches...
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. Evidence fabricated
He's read PNAC! I would swear it by what he's saying.
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SofaKingLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Has he always been this oustspoken on the war?
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
90. Yes, since the beginning
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. Michael Ruppert quoted him
and put him in his movie, "Truth and Lies of 9-11". (The movie is basically a recording of MR's lecture from Nov 2001, but it also includes interviews with Ron Paul and Cynthia McKinney. Paul blasts the Patriot Act.)
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Holy Shit! He's A Republican?
Still on 7:19 PM Eastern
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Libertarian.. and what do you bet he sniffed some indictments on the
wind?
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. am i interpreting this correctly??? n/t
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. Amazing....just the facts....is he leading to an impeachment statement?
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. McKinney said someone is going to "bring up impeachment in a minute"
It's either going to be Ron Paul or Sheila Jackson Lee.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #33
120. Wha?!
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. Again, Ron Paul has been speaking out for years
He's a Libertarian. See his 2003 floor speech Neo-conned.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:20 PM
Original message
Thanks for that...I didn't know n/t
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Technically he's a Republican.
:shrug:
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. Used to be a Libertarian, but the idiots here in his district
wouldn't vote for him until he put the "R" after his name. GOPbots.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. That's what I thought.
:hi:
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
126. A Republican he might be, but he is NOT a Bushevik
We might disagree on LOTS of things with guys like Ron Paul, but he is an AMERICAN.

Busheviks are NOT Americans. They serve only their Fuhrer.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
63. and other speeches...
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
15. It's a scathing indictment against the war!
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SofaKingLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. OMG! A REP. calling it a WAR for OIL!! n/t
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
18. heard a bit.about the WMDS
shit what happened to this republican?.........Is he up for re-election or something?.Or does he have a conscience?
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
19. Talking about oil interests and those who "propogandized for war"

despite the fact that hussein was in compliance with un
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FightingIrish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
20.  A Republican with a brain. Intelligent Design or Evolution?
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. Ahem...Ron Paul is a Libertarian in Republican clothing.
He was even the Libertarian candidate for President at one time. So, he's not exactly a neo-con.

It's nice that he's speaking out, but it's not exactly one of the rats deserting the ship.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. And he voted against the war to my understanding.
The only R to do so. Guess that explains it - he's not a REAL Republican.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
77. He was not the only Republican to vote against the war.
John J. Duncan Jr. (R-Knoxville, TN) voted against the war.

Just thought you should know. He's my representative. He's a paelo-con.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. I thought there was one ...
guess there were two.

Thanks for the info. I knew the number was VERY low.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #77
121. And also
him and Duncan and a republican from North Carolina (I forgot who) were the only republicans to vote against the Real ID act. I first found out about Mr. Paul from an Alex Jones documentary where he is interviewed (and so is Cynthia McKinney).
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
22. I love this guy. And he's telling it like it is, I bet junior is puking
right now.
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Lindsay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. Ron Paul has been anti-PNAC forever.
I think he's actually a libertarian who runs as a Repug.

And yes, he's read PNAC and previously spoken out against it on the House Floor. Used to have a link to that speech, but lost it in a computer crash. It was called, "Neo-Conned."
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
125. Source: Ron Paul's speeches
You can find all of his speeches and essays. The speeches are at his congressional website. The essays are at LEWROCKWELL.com, a libertarian website.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
24. He's rocking my world! n/t
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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. did he sign the resolution of inquiry?
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
72. He's not listed as one of the 65 cosponsors.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. recording ;->
peace
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. peachy!
as usual - :yourock: :headbang:
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
28. US provided nuclear reactor to Iran!
I did not know that!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
111. Yes Indeedy
Courtesy of Halliburton subsidiary KBR
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
29. Am I really seeing this? Somebody pinch me!
Edited on Thu Sep-08-05 06:24 PM by Gregorian
I just came here to post this, and see you're already watching. Having stumbled upon cspan. A republican! From Texas!

He's spelling out a great history lesson, as well.

All about oil!


Geezzzzus!


edit- OK, I see the post above. This isn't new for Ron.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. But is he saying anything different than what ...

...he has said before, or usually says?

Just wondering how significant this really is, since others are saying it is not so much a surprise.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. I've never seen the guy before. Just read the posts above.
I mean, there's only 24 hours in a day. Even not working and reading as much as I can, I only have half the story, and half of the players.

Oh well. It still feels good to watch.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. lol..

No kidding! There's so much happening all of a sudden.
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CityZen-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
30. Ron Paul Is Blowing Their Dresses Right Over their Heads!
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
32. Seems a seminal moment in the truth of the Bush administration.
Where is he going with this?
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SofaKingLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Impeachment?
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Homina-Homina-Homina
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. He seems to be laying the ground work...
Not gonna happen but he spoke about how this President "ILLEGALLY" went to war.
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Jeanette in FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Cynthia McKinney said that someone will be bringing up the I word
Remember Impeachment starts in the house, republicans have hold of the house and they have to run every two years. I can see where some republicans would want to distance themselves from the *.
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CanOfWhoopAss Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
37. Does he back his rhetoric with at least a moderate voting record??
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SofaKingLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
53. link
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CanOfWhoopAss Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #53
84. Excellent record for a repuke. Thanks for the link- eom
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
38. Thanks for posting...this is great. n/t
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
40. I am going to call this guy
Republican waking up. It's a beautiful day!!!
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
57. He was critical of the war ahead of it. He didn't like that so much money
was going to be spent. He doesn't believe the federal govt should have much power at all. IIRC, he doesn't care much for public education either.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
88. He's really kicking butt!
I wish people here where I live would listen to this. I'm calling his office tomorrow!
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
41. He's totally kicking ass.
Go man go. Defend Congress' right to make war. I can't believe I'm hearing this. Bout damn time.
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Draill Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
45. Libertarian in Repub clothing or no...
Edited on Thu Sep-08-05 06:30 PM by Draill
seeing this said on the floor, following the comments from the Georgia Rep. sure feels wonderful!


edit for excitement typo!
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Jeanette in FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
46. Must watch TV
I know I am a big geek, but I love CSPAN this time of night. This is when you get to hear the great speeches.
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
107. Guess I am a geek too!
Love it as well, evening is the best time.
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pippin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
47. Amazing!
A republican?? Are the rats beginning to abandon the sinking ship?

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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
128. Libertarian, apparently
but he'd never get the seat if he ran as one.

Michael Ruppert has him on his "Truth and Lies of 9-11" DVD, where Ron Paul blasts the Patriot Act. The man can speak, too. Very cogent, very clear, very forceful.
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
49. Holy Sh*t!!! n/t
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
51. what part of Tx is Ron Paul from?
He is sooo different than any of his fellow Reps! U have to wonder what part of the State elected him?
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. He's from District 14



This is not unusual for him.

Check out his website.
http://www.house.gov/paul/
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #51
66. It's mostly an area around the mid coast.
his district:

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2bfree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #66
103. He's from my district.
He is a nut but sometimes he makes sense! He has a great record on the war. However he voted not to give federal money to the victims of Katrina today........ugh.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #103
115. Some voted against it because there was no accountability. The $
is being given to FEMA with no strings. Just asking for big Halliburton contracts and other abuses without any accounting...as was done in Iraq.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
52. OMG! "Its not our oil!"
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. Yes, and that we learned NOTHING from history and nothing from
Vietnam!
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
56. fantastic speech ...
Edited on Thu Sep-08-05 06:35 PM by welshTerrier2
Democrats want my support? all they have to do is read Paul's speech to the media and say they agree with him ...

where can i get a copy of this speech? i suppose Project VoteSmart will have it eventually ...
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
60. WOW. This is the sort of language that will bring this nation
back together.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. NO
Paul is using this situation to push the small-l libertarian agenda. He is/was part of the Republican Liberty Caucus, a small-l libertarian group that aligned itself with Pubbies when it was convenient (coattail effect) for them to do so.

Ron Paul wants to drown the government in a bathtub as much as Grover Norquist does. The difference between Paul and Norquist, is that Paul believes that he has no moral obligation to promote the betterment of society, and Norquist actively desires the suffering of the lesser of us, the better to please his PNAC masters.

Paul is also extremely anti-choice, which is surprising for a small-l libertarian, since you would think he would mind his own business on issues of personal choice.

Don't hitch your wagon to Ron Paul just because he hates Bu$h too. He wants to be part of the NEW NEW GOP.
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #70
80. Thanks for sharing.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #80
95. just the facts, ma'am.
Edited on Thu Sep-08-05 07:04 PM by musette_sf
I have friends who are/were RLC-ers in Texas. I've been to RLC events with Paul as speaker for the evening. I know wherefrom I speak on this.

Don't expect any real compassion from this guy. He's an opportunist who hates Bu$h, and wants to be around to pick up the GOP pieces after we are rid of the Bu$hCo cancer. He's not interested in New Orleans, except as a potential source of votes for the NEW NEW GOP.
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #95
110. Thanks again. I'm fairly new to politics and
I appreciate the guidance.
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ISUGRADIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #80
104. Right on a few things, wrong on most
I like Ron Paul because we need true believers in Congress. But the man still wants to eliminate civil rights laws as being outside the scope of federal power.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #104
122. Anybody right now
who could get rid of Bush I'm for working with. We have to put aside partisan politics for the country. Where it concerns Bush we agree and he knows about the PNAC agenda. I may not like his personal politics but we need to get rid of Bush if we're going to save our country to have any future elections.
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
61. It IS refreshing to hear someone telling the truth--lays it all out
Iraq not aligned with alquada, we used to support Iraq, when Saddam was just as much a tyrant, it's all about oil, oil, oil. Criticizes the specious reasoning that "we have to keep fighting to honor those of our troops who have died." "The old reasons for the war never existed, and the new reasons for the war aren't credible."
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Catfight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
62. Hopefully Bush and his croonies are going to wash out to the toxic
sea with all their bad policies. IMPEACH
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #62
100. After impeachment...he needs to be buried under 10' of toxic mud
in NO...along with the rest of the administration/slime balls.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
64. His speech could be titled "The Best of DU"
I am really impressed with this clear and forthright message.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
65. OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
67. "Why We Fight" link to his speech:
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2005/cr090805.htm

I will be posting some comments on this speech in two threads I have underway -- one in DU Activist Group urging a call for Bush/Cheney resignation and the other in GD on Lakoff, but wanted all of you to have the link asap.


Peace.
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Jeanette in FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
68. Ron Paul
usually puts his speeches on his website
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #68
79. Perhaps I'm swooning but
I'd vote for this guy over hillary right now
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. he's anti-choice
and a vulture in dove's clothing.

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #79
123. I don't think you'd like his private policies though
I'd vote for Hillary over him. At least we'd finally get national health care with Hillary. Not with this guy. He knows the truth about Bush and PNAC but that's about where we agree I think.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
69. During Vietnam "they found better things to do"
Exactly what Cheney said about why he didn't serve back in the day.
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Califooyah Operative Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
71. yea, holy shit,
he's calling out the neo-cons and calling it a war for oil, among other thigns. he's covering a lot of ground, and he's really knowledgable in what he's saying.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
73. The cost of war: neglect at home
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
74. It's funny that they (the Reps) don't seem to go after him - wonder why??
Usually - any Repub. has the freepers and Rove after him.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. because he is their phoenix
see my earlier post in this thread
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #74
124. It is interesting
Edited on Fri Sep-09-05 01:34 AM by FreedomAngel82
:shrug: I don't know why either. He's been pretty critical and vocal.
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Boxerfan Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
75. LOVING IT!
I got home early & heard a very reasonable speach on key issues. Almost fainted when I saw the "R" before his name!
Truth to power...Don't fly in any private aircraft Rep. Ron Paul!
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
76. "The propagandists don't fight wars."
Tax, borrow, and print.

All the bills must eventually be paid.

Lackluster recovery, low-paying jobs, social unrest are the price we pay.

Excessive spending overseas and neglect at home.

Misallocation of funds evidenced in Katrina. Spending money to rebuild an Iraq that we destroyed.

There is no evidence that Muslim countries attack us because they "hate us for our freedoms."

(WOW! He's kicking ass.)
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
82. I've always like Ron Paul. And now he's reminding me why.
Go for it, Ron. You may be a republican, but it's clear you are an AMERICAN first. Bravo!
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. This is a historic speech kids
This is the first guy who has laid it all on the table.
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. been waiting for this. i'm in shock. n/t
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #87
96. He has several speeches like this. All historical,except so few have read/
seen them. Do a search. :)
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #87
98. anti-war, anti-choice, pro-Nader
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Extend a Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
85. This is an awesome
speech. I'm going to find the transcript and send it to my Mom.

:woohoo: :applause: :woohoo:
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
86. Close bases here while building more in Iraq n/t
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
89. He's smart and has a plan.
He has facts to back up everything he says.

:patriot: Way to Go, Rep. Paul!
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Yeah, he's a doctor, and he's rooted in facts. eom
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
92. The levees are being breached -
the ones that have been keeping an avalanche of truth from crashing down on Rove. Nah-nah, na-na-na-nah, hey, hey hey, good-bye. I can't wait until these vermin start eating each other.
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
99. SHIT !!!
I was scanning websites with cspan turned down I looked up aa few times and saw him on there but it never clicked that he was the repunk on the fence in this issue

Replay,replay
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
101. He was fantastic!
That's two home runs in a row tonight on C-SPAN!
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
102. I'm of mixed-emotions about Ron Paul
Since I'm a libertarian, I agree with him on many points -- though, depending on how, exactly, libertarian he is, he could be my mortal enemy. My libertarianism is left-wing, but I also support right-wing libertarians, or I wouldn't be a libertarian, IMHO. Many "libertarians" are actually stateless fascists, who are right-wingers to the core, they just want to dole out the "strong father" authoritarianism in their own homes and communities, with little or nothing -- including civil rights -- to stop them. These are very dangerous people. As I understand it, Paul is not pro-choice, and is very fundie-curious, if not a fundie, himself.

However, his hatred of the Bush administration is refreshing. The reason they don't attack him is because, if they did, the rest of the right-wing libertarians might wake up and leave the GOP. Since the GOP is no more libertarian than Hitler or Mao, making any kind of deal about Ron Paul is bad for the GOP. If they attack him, he just gets more press, and the "cred" of being a non-Dem that is attacking the admin, and they can't call attention to him, or more people would hear his anti-Bush message. I would think that the only thing more dangerous than being a Paul Wellstone, would be a Ron Paul -- simply because of the fact that he can't be dismissed as "one of those commie libruls."

If he is a true libertarian, however, and embraces the rights of the "libertines," as von Mises and Hayak did, then I do have respect for him -- but otherwise, I keep him at arm's length.

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blackcatpgh Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #102
113. thanks for that post
you nailed it.

i consider myself a VERY left leaning libertarian/democrat -- i agree with the libertarian stance on social issues more than anything else, though i heartily exercise my right to bear arms and such.

pretty sad that you will never hear a speech from democrats like that one (in the original post). and for anyone that wants to flame....1) i've been a member here for a while but don't post much (check my profile), and 2) i'm going to sleep now.

cheers.

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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
112. I say...
we progressives support Ron Paul's re-election... unless there is some other egregious reason not to. Anybody?
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Gotta be careful of this guy...
He reminds me of Pat Buchanan, he can be on our side of certain issues but he's still a repug at heart.
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
116. Ron Paul is more of a libertarian who caucuses with the rethugs
Why is this surprising?
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dcfirefighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-05 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
117. He's a right libertarian
I generally respect his opinions, though don't always agree.

There are quite a few fundy libertarians, who are genuine. I don't know about R. Paul's views on religion - other than the state should stay out of it, but I believe him to be genuine.

I suspect that he, like most right libertarians, would approve of repealing R v W, though I doubt it'd be a major goal of his. Most likely he feels that the federal government has no business either way. He'd probably be just as opposed to a federal ban on abortions.

Most likely, he, again like most right libertarians, believes that free markets allocate resources to their best use for the most people. Poverty is not a moral problem for him, because he sees it as a result of failed markets, of government intervention. Take the state out, and it goes away.

Of course, I don't believe this, but I did.

Now I believe that free, or even almost-free markets work wonderfully - as long as they are in manufactured goods or services. If the markets are in 'natural capital', they don't work at all. In fact, they work just like collectibles. Price increases spur further price increases, rather than more production and stable prices. This is why most of us work & commute 70+ hours a week and spend half our paycheck on housing. This is why crude oil prices always trend upwards.

The other way 'natural capital' markets don't work in a laissez-faire manner is shown by air pollution and anthropogenic global warming.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
119. It's my understanding
that Paul is a libertanin who has an (r) after his name to get elected. :shrug: But he seems to know the Bush people pretty well so I always at least listen to what he says.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
127. Why We Fight
HON. RON PAUL OF TEXAS
BEFORE THE US HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
September 8, 2005

Why We Fight

Many reasons have been given for why we fight and our youth must die in Iraq. The reasons now given for why we must continue this war bear no resemblance to the reasons given to gain the support of the American people and the United States Congress prior to our invasion in March of 2003. Before the war, we were told we faced an imminent threat to our national security from Saddam Hussein. This rationale, now proven grossly mistaken, has been changed. Now we’re told we must honor the fallen by “completing the mission.” To do otherwise would demean the sacrifice of those who have died or been wounded. Any lack of support for “completing the mission” is said, by the promoters of the war, to be unpatriotic, un-American, and detrimental to the troops. They insist the only way one can support the troops is to never waver on the policy of nation building, no matter how ill-founded that policy may be. The obvious flaw in this argument is that the mission, of which they so reverently speak, has changed constantly from the very beginning.

Though most people think this war started in March of 2003, the seeds were sown many years before. The actual military conflict, involving U.S. troops against Iraq, began in January 1991. The prelude to this actually dates back over a hundred years, when the value of Middle East oil was recognized by the industrialized West.

Our use of troops to eject Saddam Hussein from Kuwait was the beginning of the current conflict with Muslim fundamentalists who have been, for the last decade, determined to force the removal of American troops from all Muslim countries-- especially the entire Arabian Peninsula, which they consider holy. Though the strategic and historic reasons for our involvement in the Middle East are complex, the immediate reasons given in 2002 and 2003 for our invasion of Iraq were precise. The only problem is they were not based on facts.

The desire by American policymakers to engineer regime change in Iraq had been smoldering since the first Persian Gulf conflict in 1991. This reflected a dramatic shift in our policy, since in the 1980s we maintained a friendly alliance with Saddam Hussein as we assisted him in his war against our arch nemesis, the Iranian Ayatollah. Most Americans ignore that we provided assistance to this ruthless dictator with biological and chemical weapons technology. We heard no complaints in the 1980s about his treatment of the Kurds and Shiites, or the ruthless war he waged against Iran. Our policy toward Iraq played a major role in convincing Saddam Hussein he had free reign in the Middle East, and the results demonstrate the serious shortcomings of our foreign policy of interventionism that we have followed now for over a hundred years.

In 1998 Congress capitulated to the desires of the Clinton administration and overwhelmingly passed the Iraq Liberation Act, which stated quite clearly that our policy was to get rid of Saddam Hussein. This act made it official: “The policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein.” This resolution has been cited on numerous occasions by neo-conservatives as justification for the pre-emptive, deliberate invasion of Iraq. When the resolution was debated, I saw it as a significant step toward a war that would bear no good fruit. No legitimate national security concerns were cited for this dramatic and serious shift in policy.

Shortly after the new administration took office in January 2001, this goal of eliminating Saddam Hussein quickly morphed into a policy of remaking the entire Middle East, starting with regime change in Iraq. This aggressive interventionist policy surprised some people, since the victorious 2000 campaign indicated we should pursue a foreign policy of humility, no nation building, reduced deployment of our forces overseas, and a rejection of the notion that we serve as world policemen. The 9/11 disaster proved a catalyst to push for invading Iraq and restructuring the entire Middle East. Though the plan had existed for years, it quickly was recognized that the fear engendered by the 9/11 attacks could be used to mobilize the American people and Congress to support this war. Nevertheless, supposedly legitimate reasons had to be given for the already planned pre-emptive war, and as we now know the “intelligence had to be fixed to the policy.”

Immediately after 9/11 the American people were led to believe that Saddam Hussein somehow was responsible for the attacks. The fact that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were enemies, not friends, was kept from the public by a compliant media and a lazy Congress. Even today many Americans still are convinced of an alliance between the two. The truth is Saddam Hussein never permitted al Qaeda into Iraq out of fear that his secular government would be challenged. And yet today we find that al Qaeda is now very much present in Iraq, and causing chaos there.

The administration repeatedly pumped out alarming propaganda that Saddam Hussein was a threat to us with his weapons of mass destruction, meaning nuclear, biological, and chemical. Since we helped Saddam Hussein obtain biological and chemical weapons in the 1980s, we assumed that he had maintained a large supply-- which of course turned out not to be true. The people, frightened by 9/11, easily accepted these fear-mongering charges.

Behind the scenes many were quite aware that Israel’s influence on our foreign policy played a role. She had argued for years, along with the neo-conservatives, for an Iraqi regime change. This support was nicely coordinated with the Christian Zionists’ enthusiasm for the war.

As these reasons for the war lost credibility and support, other reasons were found for why we had to fight. As the lone superpower, we were told we had a greater responsibility to settle the problems of the world lest someone else gets involved. Maintaining and expanding our empire is a key element of the neo-conservative philosophy. This notion that we must fight to spread American goodness was well received by these neo-Jacobins. They saw the war as a legitimate moral crusade, arguing that no one should be allowed to stand in our way! In their minds using force to spread democracy is legitimate and necessary.

We also were told the war was necessary for national security purposes because of the threat Saddam Hussein presented, although the evidence was fabricated. Saddam Hussein’s ability to attack us was non-existent, but the American people were ripe for alarming predictions by those who wanted this war.

Of course the routine canard for our need to fight, finance, and meddle around the world ever since the Korean War was repeated incessantly: UN Resolutions had to be enforced lest the United Nations be discredited. The odd thing was that on this occasion the United Nations itself did everything possible to stop our pre-emptive attack. And as it turned out, Saddam Hussein was a lot closer to compliance than anyone dreamed. It wasn’t long before concern for the threat of Saddam Hussein became near hysterical, drowning out any reasoned opposition to the planned war.

The one argument that was not publicly used by those who propagandized for the war may well be the most important-- oil. Though the administration in 1990 hinted briefly that we had to eject Saddam Hussein from Kuwait because of oil, the stated reasons for that conflict soon transformed into stopping a potential Hitler and enforcing UN resolutions.

Publicly oil is not talked about very much, but behind the scenes many acknowledge this is the real reason we fight. This is not only the politicians who say this. American consumers have always enjoyed cheap gasoline and want it kept that way. The real irony is that the war has reduced Iraqi oil production by one-half million barrels per day and prices are soaring-- demonstrating another unintended economic consequence of war.

Oil in the Middle East has been a big issue since the industrial revolution, when it was realized that the black substance bubbling out of the ground in places like Iraq had great value. It’s interesting to note that in the early 20th century Germany, fully aware of oil’s importance, allied itself with the Turkish Ottoman Empire and secured the earliest rights to drill Iraqi oil. They built the Anatalia railroad between Baghdad and Basra, and obtained oil and mineral rights on twenty kilometers on each side of this right-of-way. World War I changed all this, allowing the French and the British to divide the oil wealth of the entire Middle East.

The Versailles Treaty created the artificial nation of Iraq, and it wasn’t long before American oil companies were drilling and struggling to participate in the control of Middle East oil. But it was never smooth sailing for any occupying force in Iraq. After WWI, the British generals upon arriving to secure “their” oil said: “Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as liberators.” Not long afterward a jihad was declared against Britain and eventually they were forced to leave. The more things change, the more they stay the same! Too bad we are not better at studying history.

After World War II the U.S. emerged as the #1 world power, and moved to assume what some believed was our responsibility to control Middle East oil in competition with the Soviets. This role prompted us to use our CIA, along with the help of the British, to oust democratically elected Mohammed Mosadeh from power in Iran and install the Shah as a U.S. puppet.

We not only supported Saddam Hussein against Iran, we also supported Osama bin Laden in the 1980s-- aggravating the situation in the Middle East and causing unintended consequences. With CIA assistance we helped develop the educational program to radicalize Islamic youth in many Arab nations, especially in Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviets. We even provided a nuclear reactor to Iran in 1967-- which today leads us to threaten another war. All of this has come back to haunt us. Meddling in the affairs of others has consequences.

Finally, after years of plotting and maneuvering, the neo-conservative plan to invade Iraq came before the U.S. House in October 2002 to be rubber-stamped. Though the plan was hatched years before, and the official policy of the United States government was to remove Saddam Hussein ever since 1998, various events delayed the vote until this time. By October the vote was deemed urgent, so as to embarrass anyone who opposed it. This would make them politically vulnerable in the November election. The ploy worked. The resolution passed easily, and it served the interests of proponents of war in the November election.

The resolution, HJ RES 114, explicitly cited the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998 as one of the reasons we had to go to war. The authorization granted the President to use force against Iraq cited two precise reasons:

1. “To defend the national security of the U.S. against the continuing threat posed by Iraq and”

2. “Enforce all relevant United Nations Council resolutions regarding Iraq.”


Many other reasons were given to stir the emotions of the American public and the U.S. Congress, reasons that were grossly misleading and found not to be true. The pretense of a legal justification was a sham.

The fact that Congress is not permitted under the Constitution to transfer the war power to a president was ignored. Only Congress can declare war, if we were inclined to follow the rule of law. To add insult to injury, HJ RES 114 cited United Nations resolutions as justifications for the war. Ignoring the Constitution while using the UN to justify the war showed callous disregard for the restraints carefully written in the Constitution. The authors deliberately wanted to make war difficult to enter without legislative debate, and they purposely kept the responsibility out of the hands of the executive branch. Surely they never dreamed an international government would have influence over our foreign policy or tell us when we should enter into armed conflict.

The legal maneuvering to permit this war was tragic to watch, but the notion that Saddam Hussein-- a third world punk without an air force, navy, and hardly an army or any anti-aircraft weaponry-- was an outright threat to the United States six thousand miles away, tells you how hysterical fear can be used to pursue a policy of needless war for quite different reasons.

Today, though, all the old reasons for going to war have been discredited, and are no longer used to justify continuing the war. Now we are told we must “complete the mission,” and yet no one seems to know exactly what the mission is or when it can be achieved. By contrast, when war is properly declared against a country we can expect an all-out effort until the country surrenders. Without a declaration of war as the Constitution requires, it’s left to the President to decide when to start the war and when the war is over. We had sad experiences with this process in Korea and especially in Vietnam.

Pursuing this war merely to save face, or to claim it’s a way to honor those who already have died or been wounded, is hardly a reason that more people should die. We’re told that we can’t leave until we have a democratic Iraq. But what if Iraq votes to have a Shiite theocracy, which it looks like the majority wants as their form of government-- and women, Christians, and Sunnis are made second-class citizens? It’s a preposterous notion and it points out the severe shortcomings of a democracy where a majority rules and minorities suffer.

Thankfully, our founding fathers understood the great dangers of a democracy. They insisted on a constitutional republic with a weak central government and an executive branch beholden to the legislative branch in foreign affairs. The sooner we realize we can’t afford this war the better. We’ve gotten ourselves into a civil war within the Islamic community.

But could it be, as it had been for over a hundred years prior to our invasion, that oil really is the driving issue behind a foreign presence in the Middle East? It’s rather ironic that the consequence of our intervention has been skyrocketing oil prices, with Iraqi oil production still significantly below pre-war levels.

If democracy is not all it’s cracked up to be, and a war for oil is blatantly immoral and unproductive, the question still remains-- why do we fight? More precisely, why should we fight? When is enough killing enough? Why does man so casually accept war, which brings so much suffering to so many, when so little is achieved? Why do those who suffer and die so willingly accept the excuses for the wars that need not be fought? Why do so many defer to those who are enthused about war, and who claim it’s a solution to a problem, without asking them why they themselves do not fight? It’s always other men and other men’s children who must sacrifice life and limb for the reasons that make no sense, reasons that are said to be our patriotic duty to fight and die for. How many useless wars have been fought for lies that deserved no hearing? When will it all end?


Why We Should Not Fight

Since no logical answers can be given for why we fight, it might be better to talk about why we should not fight. A case can be made that if this war does not end soon it will spread and engulf the entire region. We’ve already been warned that war against Iran is an option that remains on the table for reasons no more reliable than those given for the pre-emptive strike against Iraq. Let me give you a few reasons why this war in Iraq should not be fought.

It is not in our national interest. On the contrary, pursuing this war endangers our security, increases the chances of a domestic terrorist attack, weakens our defenses, and motivates our enemies to join together in opposition to our domineering presence around the world. Does anyone believe that Russia, China, and Iran will give us free reign over the entire Middle East and its oil? Tragically, we’re setting the stage for a much bigger conflict. It’s possible that this war could evolve into something much worse than Vietnam.

This war has never been declared. It’s not a constitutional war, and without a proper beginning there can be no proper ending. The vagueness instills doubts in all Americans, both supporters and non-supporters, as to what will be accomplished. Supporters of the war want total victory, which is not achievable with a vague mission. Now the majority of Americans are demanding an end to this dragged-out war that many fear will spread before it’s over.

It’s virtually impossible to beat a determined guerrilla resistance to a foreign occupying force. After 30 years the Vietnam guerillas, following unbelievable suffering, succeeded in forcing all foreign troops from their homeland. History shows that Iraqi Muslims have always been determined to resist any foreign power on their soil. We ignored that history and learned nothing from Vietnam. How many lives, theirs and ours, are worth losing to prove the tenacity of guerilla fighters supported by a large number of local citizens?

Those who argue that it’s legitimate to protect “our oil” someday must realize that it’s not our oil, no matter how strong and sophisticated our military is. We know the war so far has played havoc with oil prices, and the market continues to discount problems in the region for years to come. No end is in sight regarding the uncertainty of Middle East oil production caused by this conflict.

So far our policies inadvertently have encouraged the development of an Islamic state, with Iranian-allied Shiites in charge. This has led to Iranian support for the insurgents, and has placed Iran in a position of becoming the true victor in this war as its alliance with Iraq grows. This could place Iran and its allies in the enviable position of becoming the oil powerhouse in the region, if not the world, once it has control over the oil fields near Basra.

This unintended alliance with Iran, plus the benefit to Osama bin Laden’s recruiting efforts, will in the end increase the danger to Israel by rallying the Arab and Muslim people against us.

One of the original stated justifications for the war has been accomplished. Since 1998 the stated policy of the United States government was to bring about regime change and get rid of Saddam Hussein. This has been done, but instead of peace and stability we have sown the seeds of chaos. Nevertheless, the goal of removing Saddam Hussein has been achieved and is a reason to stop the fighting.

There were no weapons of mass destruction, no biological or chemical or nuclear weapons, so we can be assured the Iraqis pose no threat to anyone, certainly not to the United States.

No evidence existed to show an alliance between Iraq and al Qaeda before the war, and ironically our presence there is now encouraging al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden to move in to fill the vacuum we created. The only relationship between Iraq and 9/11 is that our policy in the Middle East continues to increase the likelihood of another terrorist attack on our homeland.

We should not fight because it’s simply not worth it. What are we going to get for nearly 2,000 soldier deaths and 20 thousand severe casualties? Was the $350 billion worth it? This is a cost that will be passed on to future generations through an expanded national debt. I’ll bet most Americans can think of a lot better ways to have spent this money. Today’s program of guns and butter will be more damaging to our economy than a similar program was in the 1960s, which gave us the stagflation of the 1970s. The economic imbalances today are much greater than they were in those decades.

Eventually, we will come to realize that the Wilsonian idealism of using America’s resources to promote democracy around the world through force is a seriously flawed policy. Wilson pretended to be spreading democracy worldwide, and yet women in the U.S. at that time were not allowed to vote. Democracy, where the majority dictates the rules, cannot protect minorities and individual rights. And in addition, using force to impose our will on others almost always backfires. There’s no reason that our efforts in the 21st century to impose a western style government in Iraq will be any more successful than the British were after World War I. This especially can’t work if democracy is only an excuse for our occupation and the real reasons are left unrecognized.

It boils down to the fact that we don’t really have any sound reasons for continuing this fight. The original reasons for the war never existed, and the new reasons aren’t credible. We hear only that we must carry on so those who have already suffered death and injury didn’t do so in vain. If the original reasons for starting the war were false, simply continuing in the name of those fallen makes no sense. More loss of life can never justify earlier loss of life if they died for false reasons. This being the case, it’s time to reassess the policies that have gotten us into this mess.

What does all this mean?

The mess we face in the Middle East and Afghanistan, and the threat of terrorism within our own borders, are not a result of the policies of this administration alone. Problems have been building for many years, and have only gotten much worse with our most recent policy of forcibly imposing regime change in Iraq. We must recognize that the stalemate in Korea, the loss in Vietnam, and the quagmire in Iraq and Afghanistan all result from the same flawed foreign policy of interventionism that our government has pursued for over 100 years. It would be overly simplistic to say the current administration alone is responsible for the mess in Iraq.

By rejecting the advice of the Founders and our early presidents, our leaders have drifted away from the admonitions against entangling alliances and nation building. Policing the world is not our calling or our mandate. Besides, the Constitution doesn’t permit it. Undeclared wars have not enhanced our national security.

The consensus on foreign interventionism has been pervasive. Both major parties have come to accept our role as the world’s policeman, despite periodic campaign rhetoric stating otherwise. The media in particular, especially in the early stages, propagandize in favor of war. It’s only when the costs become prohibitive and the war loses popular support that the media criticize the effort.

It isn’t only our presidents that deserve the blame when they overstep their authority and lead the country into inappropriate wars. Congress deserves equally severe criticism for acquiescing to the demands of the executive to go needlessly to war. It has been known throughout history that kings, dictators, and the executive branch of governments are always overly eager to go to war. This is precisely why our founders tried desperately to keep decisions about going to war in the hands of the legislature. But this process has failed us for the last 65 years. Congress routinely has rubber stamped the plans of our presidents and even the United Nations to enter into war through the back door.

Congress at any time can prevent or stop all undue foreign entanglements pursued by the executive branch merely by refusing to finance them. The current Iraq war, now going on for 15 years, spans the administration of three presidents and many congresses controlled by both parties. This makes Congress every bit as responsible for the current quagmire as the president. But the real problem is the acceptance by our country as a whole of the principle of meddling in the internal affairs of other nations when unrelated to our national security. Intervention, no matter how well intended, inevitably boomerangs and comes back to haunt us. Minding our own business is not only economical; it’s the only policy that serves our national security interests and the cause of peace.

The neo-conservatives who want to remake the entire Middle East are not interested in the pertinent history of this region. Creating an artificial Iraq after World War I as a unified country was like mixing water and oil. It has only led to frustration, anger, and hostilities-- with the resulting instability creating conditions ripe for dictatorships. The occupying forces will not permit any of the three regions of Iraq to govern themselves. This is strictly motivated by a desire to exert control over the oil. Self-determination and independence for each region, or even a true republican form of government with a minimalist central authority is never considered-- yet it is the only answer to the difficult political problems this area faces. The relative and accidental independence of the Kurds and the Shiites in the 1990s served those regions well, and no suicide terrorism existed during that decade.

The claim that our immediate withdrawal from Iraq would cause chaos is not proven. It didn’t happen in Vietnam or even Somalia. Even today, the militias of the Kurds and the Shiites may well be able to maintain order in their regions much better than we can currently. Certainly the Sunnis can take care of themselves, and it might be in their best interests for all three groups not to fight each other when we leave. One thing for sure: if we left no more young Americans would have to die for an indefinable cause.

Instead, we have been forcing on the people of Iraq a type of democracy that, if implemented, will mean an Islamic state under Sharia’ law. Already we read stories of barbers no longer being safe shaving beards; Christians are threatened and forced to leave the country; and burqas are returning out of fear. Unemployment is over 50%, and oil production is still significantly below pre-war levels. These results are not worth fighting and dying for.

In this war, like all others, the propagandists and promoters themselves don’t fight, nor do their children. It’s always worth the effort to wage war when others must suffer and die. Many of those who today pump the nation up with war fever were nowhere to be found when their numbers were called in the 1960s-- when previous presidents and Congresses thought so little about sending young men off to war. Then it was in their best interests to find more important things to do-- despite the so-called equalizing draft.

The inability of taxpayers to fund both guns-and-butter has not deterred those who smell the glory of war. Notoriously, great nations fall once their appetite for foreign domination outstrips their citizens’ ability or willingness to pay. We tried the guns-and-butter approach in the 1960s with bad results, and the same will happen again as a consequence of the current political decision not to cut back on any expenditure, domestic or foreign. Veto nothing is current policy! Tax, borrow, and print to pay the bills is today’s conventional wisdom. The problem is that all the bills eventually must be paid. There’s no free lunch, and no free war. The economic consequences of such a policy are well known and documented. Excessive spending leads to excessive deficits, higher taxes, and more borrowing and inflation-- which spells economic problems that always clobber the middle class and the poor.

Already the suffering has begun. A lackluster recovery, low paying jobs, outsourcing, and social unrest already are apparent. This economic price we pay, along with the human suffering, is an extravagant price for a war that was started with false information and now is prolonged for reasons unrelated to our national security.

This policy has led to excessive spending overseas and neglect at home. It invites enemies to attack us, and drains the resources needed to defend our homeland and care for our own people. We are obligated to learn something from the tragedy of Katrina about the misallocation of funds away from our infrastructure to the rebuilding of Iraq after first destroying it. If ever there was a time for us to reassess our policy of foreign interventionism, it is today. It’s time to look inward and attend to the constitutional needs of our people, and forget about the grandiose schemes to remake the world in our image through the use of force. These efforts not only are doomed to fail, as they have for the past one hundred years, but they invite economic and strategic military problems that are harmful to our national security interests.

We’ve been told that we must fight to protect our freedoms here at home. These reasons are given to make the sacrifices more tolerable and noble. Without an honorable cause, the suffering becomes intolerable. Hiding from the truth, though, in the end is no panacea for a war that promises no peace.

The most important misjudgment regarding Iraq that must be dealt with is the charge that Muslim terrorists attack us out of envy for our freedoms, our prosperity, and our way of life. There is no evidence this is the case. On the contrary, those who have extensively researched this issue conclude that the #1 reason suicide terrorists attack anywhere in the world is because their land is occupied by a foreign military power. Pretending otherwise and constantly expanding our military presence in more Arab and Muslim countries as we have since 1990 has only increased the danger of more attacks on our soil, as well as in those countries that have allied themselves with us. If we deny this truth we do so at our own peril.

It’s not unusual for the war crusaders to condemn those who speak the truth in an effort to end an unnecessary war. They claim those who want honest reasons for the enormous sacrifice are unpatriotic and un-American, but these charges only serve to exacerbate the social unrest. Any criticism of policy, no matter how flawed the policy is, is said to be motivated by a lack of support for the troops. Yet it is preposterous to suggest that a policy that would have spared the lives of 1900 servicemen and women lacks concern for the well being of our troops. The absence of good reasoning to pursue this war prompts the supporters of the war to demonize the skeptics and critics. They have no other defense.

Those who want to continue this war accuse those who lost loved ones in Iraq, and oppose the war, of using the dead for personal political gain. But what do the war proponents do when they claim the reason we must fight on is to honor the sacrifice of the military personnel we lost by completing the mission? The big difference is that one group argues for saving lives, while the other justifies more killing. And by that logic, the additional deaths will require even more killing to make sure they too have not died in vain. Therefore, the greater number who have died, the greater is the motivation to complete the mission. This defies logic. This argument to persevere has been used throughout history to continue wars that could and should have ended much sooner. This was true for World War I and Vietnam.

A sad realism struck me recently reading how our Marines in Afghanistan must now rely on donkey transportation in their efforts at nation building and military occupation. Evidently the Taliban is alive and well, as Osama bin Laden remains in this region. But doesn’t this tell us something about our naïve assumption that our economic advantages and technical knowledge can subdue and control anybody? We’re traversing Afghan mountains on donkeys, and losing lives daily in Baghdad with homemade primitive bombs. Our power and dominance clearly is limited by the determination of those who see us as occupiers, proving that just more money and sophisticated weapons won’t bring us victory. Sophisticated weapons and the use of unlimited military power is no substitute for diplomacy designed to promote peace while reserving force only for defending our national interests.

Changing our policy of meddling in the affairs of others won’t come quickly or easily. But a few signals to indicate a change in our attitude would go a long way to bringing peace to a troubled land.

1. We must soon, and Congress can do this through the budget process, stop the construction of all permanent bases in Iraq and any other Muslim country in the region. Think of how we would react if the Chinese had the military edge on us and laid claims to the Gulf of Mexico, building bases within the U.S. in order to promote their superior way of life. Isn’t it ironic that we close down bases here at home while building new ones overseas? Domestic bases might well promote security, while bases in Muslim nations only elicit more hatred toward us.

2. The plans for the biggest U.S. embassy in the world, costing nearly 1 billion dollars, must be canceled. This structure in Baghdad sends a message, like the military bases being built, that we expect to be in Iraq and running Iraq for a long time to come.

3. All military forces, especially on the Arabian Peninsula, must be moved offshore at the earliest time possible. All responsibility for security and control of the oil must be transferred to the Iraqis from the United States as soon as possible, within months not years.



The time will come when our policies dealing with foreign affairs will change for the better. But that will be because we can no longer afford the extravagance of war. This will occur when the American people realize that war causes too much suffering here at home, and the benefits of peace again become attractive to us all. Part of this recognition will involve a big drop in the value of the dollar, higher interest rates, and rampant price inflation.

Though these problems are serious and threaten our freedoms and way of life, there’s every reason to work for the traditional constitutional foreign policy that promotes peace over war, while not being tempted to mold the world in our image through force. We should not forget that what we did not achieve by military force in Vietnam, was essentially achieved with the peace that came from our military failure and withdrawal of our armed forces. Today, through trade and peace, U.S. investment and economic cooperation has westernized Vietnam far more than our military efforts.

We must remember initiating force to impose our will on others negates all the goodness for which we profess to stand. We cannot be fighting to secure our freedom if we impose laws like the Patriot Act and a national ID card on the American people.

Unfortunately, we have lost faith and confidence in the system of government with which we have been blessed. Today too many Americans support, at least in the early stages, the use of force to spread our message of hope and freedom. They too often are confused by the rhetoric that our armies are needed to spread American goodness. Using force injudiciously, instead of spreading the worthy message of American freedom through peaceful means, antagonizes our enemies, alienates our allies, and threatens personal liberties here at home while burdening our economy.

If confidence can be restored in our American traditions of peace and trade, our influence throughout the world would be enhanced just as it was once we rejected the military approach in Vietnam.

This change in policy can come easily once the people of this country decide that there is a better way to conduct ourselves throughout the world. Whenever the people turn against war as a tool to promote certain beliefs, the war ceases. That’s what we need today. Then we can get down to the business of setting an example of how peace and freedom brings prosperity in an atmosphere that allows for excellence and virtue to thrive.

A powerful bureaucratic military state negates all efforts to preserve these conditions that have served America so well up until recent times. That is not what the American dream is all about. Without a change in attitude, the American dream dies: a simple change that restates the principles of liberty enshrined in our Constitution will serve us well in solving all the problems we face. The American people are up to the task; I hope Congress is as well.
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