Update (my niece and abortion)

[The Straight Story]

original thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4638680

Update:

1. My niece found the money and got her abortion.

2. Dad (opposed to abortion) offered to be there when she had it and to pay for any meds she needed (which I learned today).

3. She was glad dad found out (from me) as he talked to her (as he did today) and let her know she was still loved no matter what she chose.

4. Hopefully she will be home in the next few days. I talked to her previous employer and they want her back (she just does not seem to want to work for them now, though she liked the job). I also talked to my lead engineer tonight who has a room for rent, $500/mo, which fits her budget (if she chooses to get a job and keep it).

5. I have odd jobs for her (as I always do) which will help her out. She was upset at first I told dad (with his present condition) but now she is real happy he is in the looop and helping her. He did not like her choice, but it was her and he will help her now all he can.

We always will love her and help her out, I just hope she chooses now to help herself.

One of my last talks with her we discussed her dreams and her BF's. All I said was that they could come true if they worked hard to meet them (his parapsychology classses were about $1500). She told him what I said and now he thinks I am a dick because I said he should work hard and make his dreams come true (really. I talked them up, gave them ideas, but she ran home and called him and told him I said his dreams were his responsibility. Now he won't talk to me. And he is the one more than her that wanted her to abort).

At any rate, that is the update. She got what she wanted. She is 26, wants to be a photographer. I wish her well and will help out as I can (offered her use of my camera). She is hoping there will be some magic money to pay for their college classes (like she found for the abortion). I was not trying to be hard on her when I told her that her dreams were in hers and his hands. He took it that I was being judgemental and won't talk to me anymore. I was just trying to be realistic. Maybe I was wrong.

He and she does not think they should have to work at odd jobs (toy store and UDF) to have their educations paid for. They borrowed the money for the abortion, and hope that his parents will cough up the money for the college degree.

Was I wrong now (as many think I was before) to tell them to work hard for their dreams? I was wrong to offer help then to withdraw it (I can admit to that and live with it). But now that things are done and they have dreams to follow am I wrong to tell them that they can reach them by their work?

personally I don't think I am. I am a high school drop out and make 70-80k a year, because I worked hard. They want the world handed to them and do not understand why people won't finance their dreams. I am willing to help as needed, but they don't seem willing to help themselves at all (and at 26, she has lived with dad since she was 14 and not had any bills, had plenty of time to save and make the life she wanted.)

Maybe I am too callous in it all. I tried hard. I took her across country on my dime, they took care of her on theirs. Mom, dad, myself, have all helped her over the years - and she has not had to help herself. Now dad has cancer, treatable. Uncle Bill is dying of it. Mom died last year, and I have lost paitience with her not trying harder for herself.

I dunno, I just seem so down and lost tonight....

[The Magistrate]

1. It Sounds Like It Worked Out Well Enough, Sir

Her father seems to have behaved especially well.

Your advice concerning her future is the right course.

The boy she is involved with sounds like someone who needs several good kicks, and the experience of prolonged loneliness....

[The Straight Story]

7. A note on that

She lives with my dad, her granddad. She asked him today to tell her dad about the whole thing. Dad came over and talked to me, then went and talked to her dad about it all.

I hope, for her, that this will be a good turning point for her.

[The Magistrate]

9. With Any Luck It Will Be, Sir

Things like this have a way of focusingt he mind, and showing a young woman what those around her are really worth....

[The Straight Story]

15. At this point

I just hope she is ok.

She always wanted a kid, and never thought she could have one. Her BF, to me, was the biggest influence in her decision. One which cannot now be changed.

My whole reason for taking her on a cross country trip was to show her that life had a lot more to offer her than the 4 walls she knew. Everyone has tried for her, now she has to try for herself.

She made her decision, that was her right. I just hope now that she makes more decisions which help her realize her dreams.

[cynatnite]

2. She's an adult...her family needs to treat her like one

such as not talking to her employers for her...that's her responsibility. She needs to take of her own business herself and not have others do it because she expects them to bail her out.

I've got a 21 year old daughter and as much as it killed us inside, hubby and I had to cut the girl off financially. We were going bankrupt and for almost a year now, she's gotten on her feet without our help and is doing much better. She actually has a little money saved up.

She has two kids she is raising by herself and while we help out on that end as far as getting them a few things they need on occasion, the rest of it is on her. She is an adult and needs to be treated as such.

I strongly suggest you and the rest of this girl's family do the same. Being involved financially puts you and anyone else in a position of having a stake in whatever she does. To save the heartache and to help her mature...STOP.

She's an adult and it's time for her to either sink or swim. She'll choose the swimming rather than drowning. I know what I'm talking about here.

Good luck.

[ultraist]

4. Yes, but there is a difference between enabling and giving a hand up

Each situation is different. Not everyone is able to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, esp if they don't really have any bootstraps.

I think it's great the OP has been so supportive of his niece.

[alphafemale]

11. There's a difference between unable and unwilling. n/t

[cynatnite]

19. Support is nice, but given the few other posts of the OP's...

This girl needs to grow up. She's 26 or 27 years old. How much more time does she need?

If she is unable to pull herself up by the 'bootstraps', then are people supposed to break themselves because of it? At what point does a person stop? Should they stop?

Grant it, it's a case by case situation, but as a tax-paying adult myself, what makes her so different than anyone else or better for that matter to deserve to be constantly supported and bailed out for her bad decision making?

If she had kids or if there were other extenuating circumstances, then I'd probably be more compassionate to this girl, but the OP has not given me any reason to feel different.

Being supportive is fine. I am supportive of my daughter, who has shown many of the same immature tendencies as this girl in the past, but the buck stops at some point because she has to take responsibility for her children and her own life.

Sometimes the best thing anyone can do for another person is a little tough love and in this sitution, it more than calls for it, IMO.

[ultraist]

29. I also had noted that each case is different

I don't know the history of this specific case.

I do know, however, that if my children needed a loan or a handup, particularly for an emergency situation, I'd likely give it to them.

As a parent, I'm fully aware of the difference between enabling and empowering. ;)

[dsc]

3. I hope people stop enabling them

though I do wonder if even one person who took the position that by withdrawing the funds you were preventing her from exercising her choice will apologize since she was clearly able to exercise that choice without your money. The fact is that she did some growing up just by finding the money on her own, now she needs to pay it back on her own. No one can promise she will grow up if people stop enabling her but we can guarantee that she won't if people don't stop enabling her.

One last note, I do hope you are seeing someone or at least have soneone to talk to, about the massive amount of loss you have and are currently experiencing. I had a similarly long year in that regard last year and know it is very hard to stay afloat.

[The Straight Story]

12. I was wrong,

Period, to offer help then withdraw it. I should have just said no.

I do have a psychologist I am talking to. I lost my mom, 3 boys, and one daughter all within a few years span.

All I wanted for my niece was not to experience the pain I have lived through. I think mom and dad coddled her too much, as does dad. While we cannot change the past, we can change the now (I hope).

[dsc]

14. I agreed that you should have never offered the money in the first instanc

but that isn't the only thing people gripped about in that thread. I am glad you have a doctor that is an awful lot of loss in a short time. I actually can't even aproach that.

[MercutioATC]

5. Seems to me like you've done everything right.

I realize this sounds judgemental, but it sounds like she needs to lose the boyfriend. It sounds like her head is on straight, but she's listening to the BF too much.

All I could advise is treating her like a kid (like a child of yours). Give her support and set limits.

How interested in photography is she? Is this a passing thing or has she had this interest for some time?

[The Straight Story]

10. An interest for some time

I took her when she was 18 or so to a cemetery and we took photos. I used my new camera and B&W film. She loved it.

I am trying to help as best I can, some things I cannot just help with though.

[MercutioATC]

13. Is it really something she wants to pursue professionally?

I guess I'm asking if it's an interest or something she feels she really wants to do for a living.

[fudge stripe cookays]

6. I'm glad it worked out.

FWIW, I was 28 when I had mine, and because of the screwed up circumstances of my teenage years, did not move out of my mom's for the last time until I was 26.

We cannot know exactly what is motivating this girl. I could thank my mom for impeding my getting out of the house for good. She had control issues, and stood in the way of anything I wanted to do to become independent.

I hope this helps your niece to get on her way and become independent. Mine was a giant wake-up call for me.

Stop wallowing. It was her decision, and she made it. Thank God she had the help she needed. I'm glad her dad decided to be there for her.

FSC

[The Straight Story]

16. My wife had an abortion

Long before she knew me.

She said if she had known my dad and my family at the time she would not have had it.

I HOPE it is a wake up call for her, that she sees what she has now is good instead of sitting around whining about how bad things are.

No bills, no worries, no one to worry about but herself. Her life and dreams are in her hands, not mine. I want the best for her, but I cannot make her dreams come true for her.

She wants things to just 'be' as she wants them. She has the life many dream of - no bills, no worries, rent free place to live, no car payment (dad pays it), and so on. And yet she is still unhappy.

I want her to be happy, just not sure what to do at this point.

[fudge stripe cookays]

28. Yes, you mentioned that.

But you're measuring all women by your wife.

Don't presume to know what any woman feels after the experience. The only emotion I felt (and still feel, 11 years later) is complete and utter relief. Every woman is different.

Don't assume she feels guilty or sad or happy or any other emotion. If she wants to talk to you about it fine; if she doesn't, move on. It is not your responsibility or your problem. It's HER life. Let her shoose to deal with it how she chooses.

It is not your job to make her happy. Just be there for her and try to be a good influence. That's all you can do.

FSC

[FlaGranny]

32. You can never appreciate what you have

if you have not earned it yourself, and you can never be happy unless you set and accomplish at least some of your own goals.

[alphafemale]

8. IF she chooses to get a job and keep it?

That's not supposed to be an "IF."

You need to get harsh. NOW.

They'll never learn if you don't.

[The Straight Story]

17. IF

has been the norm for many years.

She used to Yell at my mom if she went to the store and bought the wrong rice. And I mean Yell. Mom would go back out and buy the right type.

Mom is now dead, and she regrets her actions - but she is, in some ways, still the same person (example: she asks me if I feed my cats as one of them is always over there begging for food. I feed them well, but one likes to go over there. She often comes over and bitches at me about not feeding them - but I do).

She always wants things her way, when they are not she gets mad. I don't know how to fix that, not sure I can.

[alphafemale]

20. Bless you. You love her. But she's taking advantage of you.

It's going to be a hard cycle to break.

But you will all be stronger if you do.

[shugah]

18. i'm glad she was able to work that out

i hope that you can work out your own issues where she is concerned.

she has now shown you that she can solve problems on her own - she's probably capable of much more than you know. if you give her a push, she may flounder, but probably won't fall. if she does fall, give her the opportunity to pick herself back up. you can always be ready if she can't do it.

as much as it seems you have going on psychologically and emotionally in your own life, it would probably be easier to concentrate on your self, and let her do the same.

on edit: removed harsh tone.

[kitkat65]

21. Has your niece ever been screened for depression?

You might want to look into it. There's a depressive condition called dysphoria. It's not like manic depression with the ups and downs but more like a kind of malaise that - among other things - makes it hard to focus and make sound decisions. The great thing is that it is treatable with antidepressants. It's a brain chemistry thing and doesn't mean she needs intensive psychotherapy. A good general physician can help her determine if she might have dysphoria and what is the best course to take. And a better doctor will want to do follow ups to check her progress.

I'm glad for you, your niece and uncle that you help and support each other. Unconditional love among family is truly a blessing.

Good luck!

[IdaBriggs]

22. Part 1: I'll repeat what I said last time you posted on this topic --

You shouldn't have spilled her private business to the rest of the family. I'm glad it worked out, but what you did was wrong. It crossed inappropriate boundaries in some really scary ways. (shudder) I hope you apologized.

That being said, on to Part 2:

No, you did nothing wrong with pointing out an obvious reality. Of course everyone is responsible for making their own dreams come true. That's kind of a "duh!" thing. And honestly, who cares what Loser Boy thinks? He's nobody you have to worry about, and he probably isn't going to be around much longer. Let him sulk in his own corner of the world; its not like his opinion really matters to you, does it?

There's a bigger picture problem here that I think you should be concentrating on: I think where you and your family have FAILED in raising your niece is not emphasizing the RECIPROCAL (hence EQUAL) nature of ADULT relationships. Its great when family helps each other out in a crisis, but bottom line, when one side is always "giving" and the other side is always "getting", it becomes less about "helping" and more about "enabling."

You folks don't have a "relationship of equals" with your niece. She is the "helpless, irresponsible one" who you "keep rescuing." Its a lot of work being a damsel in distress, and your average "knight in shining armor" usually wants to get off the horse every now and then. I suggest you start fixing this dysfunctional relationship ASAP. Maybe find something SHE can be better than you at -- and start putting yourself in the "one down" position a time or two, so you folks can get some equilibrium back in the dynamic. Read "Codependent No More" for some clues on how to STOP being the answer to all of her problems -- she isn't learning ANYTHING when you are doing all of the heavy lifting for her.

Yes, you were right about the dream comment, and any sane person will agree with you. But that isn't really the problem anymore. She's out of "crisis," and its time for her to start finding her own answers. You might want to practice saying the following:

"I'm sure you'll figure it out."

Then bite your tongue HARD and don't give her anymore advice AT ALL. Don't be mean or sarcastic or nasty or anything like that. BE SUPPORTIVE!!! "I'm sure you'll figure it out." Its a sign of your confidence in her ability TO BE A GROWN UP -- and thats what she IS. A GROWN UP. Not a child who needs constant minding -- obviously, you folks have done a piss poor job of raising her if she's this useless at 26 (And you really haven't done THAT, have you?), so time to try something new -- like ASSUME SHE'S A GROWN UP WHO DOESN'T NEED YOUR APPROVAL TO LIVE HER OWN LIFE.

"I'm sure you'll figure it out."

Stick with this program for two or three years, and I think your life will be a lot happier.

Good luck! :)

[ultraist]

31. There might be other reasons why she is spinning her wheels

Aside from the supposed enabling that the family is doing.

Just sayin...someone might want to look deeper into why she is not progressing well.

[shireen]

23. I'm glad to hear the family crisis has been resolved.

It must be a relief.

But ... uh, did I read this correctly: her BF is taking parapsychology classes?!? LOL!

[The Straight Story]

24. He wants to

His famliy has money set aside for college, though they have not release it to him yet.

[linazelle]

25. Is this All My Children or DU? n/t

[otohara]

26. I Would Be Furious If My Abortion Details Were Posted

on the Internet.

[crispini]

27. Word. nt

[mtnester]

30. As a matter of fact, it violates every privacy law out there

HIPAA being the first.

I was appalled at the first post on this subject, and still am.

Unless the OP has her permission, I hope he realizes that he can be sued for every mention of her abortion at this point...it is privileged info only she can release as it is considered medical history.

This thread should be locked and deleted by the moderators in case the posting of it leaves DU open as well.

[thedailyshow]

33. I agree

[ultraist]

35. It doesn't violate HIPPA, he did not reveal her identity. n/t

[mtnester]

39. Between the posts, the OP inferred enough that someone could deduce her

identity from her home town easily. Our lawyers and our training have assured us that this falls well within set HIPAA violation standards, and is routinely discussed in our privacy manager training classes.

Example, If I am standing in line at the pharmacy, this is why conflicts of medicine are not discussed at the counter anymore. Even if the people behind me do not know my name, discussing my meds is not allowed, as I could, through recognition, be identified at some time, like when they see me sitting at my job with a name plate at my desk, or see me announced as a speaker at the school board meeting.

No different...the OP has disclosed enough about the family that should a person from that area read this, they could perhaps easily identify who she is.

Lots of ambiguous rules in HIPAA, but some of them are pretty clear. The OP also had no problem violating her privacy within her family as well. DIscussing a "possible" abortion is completely different from now announcing she has gone through a medical procedure.

And, even if you decide that you do not believe it violates HIPAA law, is surely violates her privacy on about a thousand other levels.

[Misunderestimator]

40. I completely agree with you.

[mtnester]

41. Thanks

I see from your posts both in this thread and the original, we both have the same opinion of what the OP did in this matter.

[ultraist]

42. I stand corrected. Thanks for the explanation. n/t

[mtnester]

43. You are welcome, HIPAA is a confusing and vague law

on some things it is clear, on some others, not so clear, on some, no direction at all. Even different state and municipal attorneys interpret it differently. This is what happens when bureaucrats instead of people with common sense set out to write a law that needed to be written, but was done so poorly as to be almost laughable.

[Misunderestimator]

38. Indeed.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. I would have a hard time taking advice from someone who betrayed me.

Especially well meaning advice when the betrayal was never cleaned up.

Were you making 70-80K at 26 years old?

Are you the only one who has suffered grief over all these losses? Perhaps she has too.

I am glad she was able to exercize her choice in the matter.

If anything this probably taught her she CAN'T rely on her family, so you will probably get your wish...just don't expect her to bake you a cake for it.

[Bridget Burke]

36. Especially from someone who wanted to adopt the child.

That was a hideously bad idea.

[Misunderestimator]

37. Your post is filled with insults about your niece.

It's really hard to tell from your description of what transpired whether they should or should not have taken offense at your "advice." Judging from the original story you posted here though, I'd say they have a right to be offended. They are adults. Why do you feel the need to control them? They aren't even your children. I don't get it. Your OP sounds incredibly judgmental to me (again).

[Heddi]

44. You *REALLY* have no understanding of privacy, do you?

In the first thread, and in this one, you happily admit that you went behind her back and told your father of her plans even though she specifically asked you not to.

Then, in the course of 2 weeks, you post not one, but TWO fucking threads about a very personal issue involving your neice.

Do you have NO concept of privacy? How do you think she would feel if she knew you were blabbing personal information to strangers across the globe?

More importantly, how would YOU feel if personal medical and other intimate details of your life were laid bare to strangers AGAIN and AGAIN on a public internet message board?

Wow. I'm really glad you're not in my family. Then again, my family members respect the privacy of each other, know how to keep a secret, and know how to keep their noses in their own business. Those, apparently, aren't issues that your family values.

sickening.

[Solly Mack]

45. .........

:eyes:

:thumbsdown:

:banghead:

[Ripley]

46. Well, now that we have all the Men's opinions on this..

That about wraps up that situation doesn't it?