Question re: American education

[Maple]

After high school in the US, you go on to college?

And when you graduate college you get a diploma or a degree?

After that comes university? Where you get a degree presumably, at what level? Bachelor's? Masters?

And if not a Masters or a PhD, where do you go to get that?

A question came up tonight in a conversation in my home...how do different levels of education in Canada equate to American ones, and no one knew for sure, so I figured this was as good a place as any to ask. :7

[yvr girl]

1. Fellow Canuck here but

I believe what we call university, they call college.

What we call college, they call junior college.

[Maple]

3. I dunno

that's why I'm asking...this is the kind of thing that came up in conversation without any of us knowing for sure.

[Lost-in-FL]

2. College, University... same crap

In Canada, after high school you are supposed to go to Community College (or Junior College) for two years and then you can go to College or University. Here, we do not need to get two years post high school we go straight to college (or university, it is almost the same). That if you can afford College/University if not you can still go to Community College for a 2 year degree (Associate Degree) and pray that you can transfer those credit to get your Bachelors.
The first 4 years of school after high school are to complete you Bachelor's (considered Undergraduate studies). After you get a College diploma or your Bachelor degree you can get your Masters (Graduate studies). After getting your Master degree you continue on to obtain your PhD.

[Maple]

6. Do you mean in the US?

because Canucks aren't required to go to a community college for 2 years.

We go from high school to university.

College here is more a trade school...different route from university

After a university degree...bachelors...you go to 'graduate school' at a university for a masters and above.

[Lost-in-FL]

9. Sorry, Quebec is another country I guess (lol)...

In Quebec I heard you are required some certificate (after high school graduation) before applying for your University.

[Maple]

12. Well that should be

a high school diploma...I don't know of any college requirement, although anything's possible.

[Lost-in-FL]

13. I addition to your HS diploma...

[Maple]

18. Don't know of any

such requirement. Two neighbourhood girls just went off to Montreal for university, and they have high school only. No college.

[yvr girl]

15. Nope

They had grade 13 in Ontario, which was a completely different thing. I'm not sure if they still have it.

[Maple]

20. No we don't.

Removed a few years ago, as it pretty much duplicated first year university.

[Lost-in-FL]

21. That must be it...

[yvr girl]

11. You can do university transfer at most community colleges

It's a way to save money, as the courses are usually less expensive. Lots of people in small towns do this - it also saves on the cost of living away from home.

[Maple]

14. You'd have to add

a couple of years...and most subjects don't translate to a university. Nursing and the like do, but I don't know of many others.

[yvr girl]

24. Depends what degree you're getting

You can generally get several first and second year English, history, psychology, philosophy, economics, biology, chemistry and geography courses (in other words general humanities and science classes.) Your choices are a bit more limited, but if you do it right, you can trasfer them. In BC they publish a transfer guide that tells you what all the community college courses equate to in the BC universities.

[Maple]

25. but that's not American

which is what I'm asking about...and trying to equate that to Ontario.

[bobbieinok]

29. that's true in most places in the US too

[Maple]

32. Okay then BC must be

more like the US that way.

Education is a provincial responsibility here, so there is a small variation between provinces.

[buzzard]

16. In Canada students apply directly to Universities or Colleges

after high school. We do not get two years post high school in order to apply. I don't know where you got that information but it is incorrect.

[Lost-in-FL]

19. Well...

I heard that from someone who lived in Quebec for 23 yrs...

[Drum]

4. kind of generally you have it

after high school to college...most are 4 yr programs = bachelors degree
then you may go on for +/- 3 yrs = masters
then on to more college for PhD/Doctorate (may take a long time)

other options are following high school with 2 yr Associate degree...

Medical school (+ specialities therein) is a whole other series of stages

Law school can (or commonly does?) follow a bachelor's degree, tho I suppose one can atttend law school after any further stage as well.

I hold none of these titles/degrees beyond high school and 5 years of college w/o degree, but I think I've mentioned some of the more common progressions.

From the erudition I've encountered here at the DU, I'm sure many other more experienced folks can or will weigh in on this question....

:)

[Lost-in-FL]

7. For Medical or Law school you are required a Bachelor degree

... then you go to Medical/Law school and that would take a long time depending on the specialty

[TimeChaser]

23. Or technical schools

Although some highschools have agreements with Tech schools, so that you can start attending while still in high school.

[Maple]

26. And what is

a Tech school? What kind of subjects would be taught there?

Do you mean like CalTech...which I understood was a university, or something different?

[Yupster]

33. A rather new phenomenon

is for high school kids to take concurrent college coures so they can graduate high schol with as many as 24 credits of collge completed.

This is a big deal around me for the better students.

I'm not sure I like the idea of mixing high school and college although if I was paying for my kid's college at $ 30,000 a year I bet I would like concurrent classes a lot more.

I went straight from high school to college where I graduated in 3.5 years.

Then while working as a teacher I took post-graduate classes for three years at night and in the summer to get my master's degree.

My master's is in curriculum and instruction, and was an absolute joke. No work, little learning, but it got me an extra $ 1200 per year on my teaching salary schedule.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Ok four year college is your university and you get a degree

Junior College is your college and that is a technical school

At College level (univerity) you either get a BA or a BS

At Junior level an associate in whatever your course was on (but it is mostly a diploma)

Master is the MA or MS

PhD self explanatory, and four years

[Alcibiades]

35. PhD in four?

I thought that the average was seven. In my program, only 50% of those who started with me will get their PhD. I'll be done with mine in December, taking six years to do it: three years for the coursework, a year of exams, a year teaching when I was supposed to be working on mhy dissertation, and two years on the dissertation.

Some folks take even longer--there was a guy in our department who had been around for 13 years before they booted him.

[TomInTib]

8. Okay...I might get some of this wrong, and I ain't got no education

in either country, but I spent half of my life in each country...

A community college degree in Canada is roughly equivalent to a college degree in the US, except that many use college as a jumping off point to go to University, as some credits can be transferred.

From thereonin, the bachelor, masters, PhD process is pretty much the same.

The US though, has many un-accredited colleges (does Canada have the same - I forget) whose degrees are not academically relevant, although they may teach skills requisite to certain types of employment.

One thing that I do know though, is that you are much more likely to hear "Where did you go to school?" here in the US than in Canada, and when someone asks you that, they mean a university, not a college.

I remember answering that question at a company dinner while seated next to our Stanford-educated Chairman, and I - as a Canadian VP - answered "East Lambton Secondary School". He was rather taken aback, but not as taken aback as he should have been if he had known that my HS graduating class had only 30 students. I just got lucky with hard work and opportunities.

Ms. Tomintib

[bobbieinok]

10. both college and university are where you go after HS.....the difference

between the 2 is that university means that grad programs are offered

graduation from either a college or university results in a bachelor's degree, either a BS or a BA

there are different types of master's programs.....the MA in the humanities (MS in sciences??? not sure about that); MBA masters in business administration; MSW masters in social work; and some others

PhD for people in the humanities and sciences; EdD is a doctorate in education--as far as I can tell the only difference is that an EdD doesn't require a foreign language proficiency (for many college/university administrators and faculty, EdD has significantly lower status; why?? I've never figured it out)

after graduating from college/university, you can go to law school for 3 years and get a doctorate (LlD??)......or 4 years to med school and get an MD (doctorate of medicine)

hope this is of some help

[LibDemAlways]

17. There are different types of colleges in

the US.

The community college is usually close to home and offers two year programs. Many people attend community college to complete the first two years of coursework toward a 4 year university degree. These units transfer to the university. Others attend community college to complete a two-year program of study in any number of fields. Graduates of these programs are often awarded Associates Degrees.

Four year colleges and universities offer Bachelor and Masters Degree Programs, and some offer Doctorate programs. Depends largely on the school. Some are state supported and some are private.

You can begin as a freshman at a university right out of high school and stay there until you complete a doctorate or other advanced degree, or you can start at a junior college, transfer to a four year college, and transfer again to a university for graduate and/or post-graduate work. There are many pathways through higher education in the US. Of course it helps to have money or the ability to garner some scholarships. Beyond community college, costs can be incredibly steep.

[bobbieinok]

27. many masters programs offer teaching or research assistantships

sometimes the first year; most can get these after a year

also, many areas of study really prefer that you do your advanced degrees at a different university than where you did your undergraduate work.....although that varies

also you can get a doctorate in ministry at a seminary after undergraduate study...either a DD (doctor of divinity) or DMin (doctorate of ministry)

....this is really for people who plan to be church ministers or teach at a religious seminary......people who want to teach religion/theology at a university usually have to have a PhD, not a DD or a DMin; this varies according to the university

....many fundamentalist churches do not require a degree; just a 'calling' and approval by the denomination......for example, it's only recently that Pentecostal churches have expected their ministers to have even a college degree (from what I have heard)....many prominent Pentecostal and other fundamentalist/conservative church ministers have honorary degrees (honorary degrees are always doctorates, so some smaller/less prestigous colleges make a big deal of the number of faculty with 'earned doctorates')

[XemaSab]

22. You get your high school diploma

and then you can either go to junior college (either to save money, make up needed entry coursework, learn fun things, or earn an AA) or you can go right on to college/university.

After the bachelor's degree (BA or BS) you get a master's (MA or MS) and then a PhD (which can be in arts or sciences). Sometimes people are allowed to pursue PhD's without the master's degree. Usually the master's and the PhD require a thesis or dissertation, while the BA/BS don't.

Med school (MD) and law school (JD) are after the BA or BS.

(College and university are pretty much interchangeable, unless you're talking about a junior college.)

[Speck Tater]

28. Almost

<<College and university are pretty much interchangeable>>

I went from high school into a California "State College". ("San Fernando Valley State College") In my second year there the college began offering Masters degree programs and became a California "State University" ("Cal. State University, Northridge") because of that change. At least that was how it was explained to me at the time.

Even as a "University", high school graduates are still accepted as freshmen there.

[XemaSab]

30. There are some differences

but it's not clear to me what those differences are.

:)

[Maple]

31. Is an associate degree a fairly recent thing?

I've never been clear on exactly where that comes in.

[incapsulated]

37. No, it isn't recent

Although I have no idea when exactly it started. Nurses need a AA to get their RN and police need an AA as well.

"Tech School" is just a recent term for "trade school". It's basically the same premise, a school that is focused on training someone for a specific job, one that doesn't necessarily require a regular AA. They don't often have many liberal arts courses, for instance, unless they are deemed a necessary part of the curriculum (or they are granting an AA degree). A tech or trade school can teach anything from computer programming to culinary arts to court stenography. It can be short or a full two year program depending on the school. Some of them grant AA degrees, as well.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. The distinction between college and university is minimal in the US

After high school, you go to college/university and receive a bachelor's degree. At the undergraduate level (pre-bachelor degree), colleges and universities are more or less the same. The distinction has to do with research/teaching distributions for faculty, and the existence of graduate programs (for Masters/PhDs). "College" usually refers to those schools which don't have any or don't have extensive graduate programs. "University" refers to schools that do have graduate programs. Faculty at colleges are expected to be more focused on teaching/undergraduate education. Faculty at universities are expected to be more focused on research. As a result, if you go to a university for your bachelor's degree, you will have graduate faculty and adjunct faculty in addition to professors, whereas if you go to a college for your bachelor's degree, you will tend to have professors almost exclusively. The rub is that the professors (and even graduate faculty) at universities tend to be more on the cutting edge of knowledge in their field, while the professors at colleges tend to be more conventional, and may not have time for advanced research (if they teach, say, 4 or 5 courses a semester). Moreover, professors at a college have more lenient tenure and promotion requirements with respect to publication. A professor at a university may be expected to publish one book and several articles for tenure, and another book and more articles for promotion to full professor, and these books and articles must be through academic presses and in recognized and respected scholarly journals, etc. A professor at a college may be expected to publish perhaps an article or two for tenure, or contribute to a textbook, etc: the focus is on pedagogy and service in the first instance.

So, college = professors more focused on teaching, but generally not on the cutting edge of research in their field.
University = professors and graduate faculty focused on research, and therefore less likely to devote a lot of time to pedagogy.

Obviously, I do not mean to say that faculty at colleges are outdated in their approaches, or that faculty at universities don't care about or use innovative pedagogy. The main distinction between colleges and universities is the teaching/research distinction, but this doesn't mean that many very impressive educators/intellectuals don't do both very well!

;-)

On edit: A "university" is, in theory, an assemblage of "colleges." Hence, in most large universities, you will have a "College of Liberal Arts," a "College of Engineering," etc, each with a different set of requirements and different organization hierarchy (and dean), all of whom report to the President of the university. You'll also have university wide requirements, but the colleges are each meant to set indivdual requirements for departments falling under their rubric (say, history, English, sociology, communication in a college of liberal arts at a university). Colleges, on the contrary, have one structure and one administrative apparatus. The idea of a "university" - the U.S. version is based largely on the German model from the mid-nineteenth century - is meant to encompass all fields of knowledge. Prior to the introduction of the university model, most colleges in the U.S. functioned according to a model held over from the middle ages: intruction in the trivium (grammar, logic, rhetoric) and classics, with a hefty dose of religion thrown in. They were basically finishing schools for gentlemen (and I mean "men" only), reproducing an elite class by training in politics and philosophy. The German university model, which corresponded with the rise of professions (engineering in particular) and the desperate need to modernize the agricultural workforce served to modernize curricula, particularly in the sciences and technical professions, which included "management" by the late-nineteenth century and certainly after the rise of scientific management a la Taylor. Many "colleges" in the U.S. still bill themselves as "liberal arts" colleges - a holdover from the classical education of the pre-university model. Of course, they also teach the sciences now, but the classics based curriculum remains their historical precursor.

[Alcibiades]

36. The concept of the University

has been on a downward spiral since the G.I. bill. Now every onetime teacher's college with a decent basketball team calls itself a "university." Still, many of these places nurture their relationship with the liberal arts, and still take teaching seriously.

One of the fellows on the faculty in my program favorite aphorism was "I think that good researchers make the best teachers." I always got a laugh out of that, and agree with you--there are plenty who are good at both, plenty who are bad at both, and plenty of folks who are terrible teachers and good researchers or vice versa.

[Maple]

38. My thanks to everyone on this

It helped a great deal.