I'm Sorry this is Bull sh!t..Nursing home owners charged

[political_invader]

Ok lets say they did evacuate where were they to go?

They made every attempt to notify the families of the persons in there care, to let them know they had plenty of food and water for 10 days.
it wasn't the hurricane that killed these people it was the levies that broke that flooded out the care home so what the hell could they have done any different? anyone agree with me or I just confused?

They had evacuated in the past and had lost 21 people on a bus do to no water or oxygen sitting in traffic. They honestly believed they were safer staying right where they were.

full article at: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/13/katrina.nursinghome/index.html

[babylonsister]

1. The whole scenario is being pondered:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4762158

And I'm sure there are many other threads.

Welcome to DU! I've learned a lot here, hope you will also!

[political_invader]

8. Ty babylonsister..

for your kind post and your welcoming to DU, I have already learned a lot here I am truly happy I found this place.

Also ty for the thread.

[ThoughtCriminal]

2. Somebody needed to be responsible for getting them

to safety. Just leaving them there with no one to evacuate to safety is negligent.

[preciousdove]

11. Perhaps the flying monkeys weren't available. Waiting on facts.

[lvx35]

3. Well have to see where the case goes.

It could be negligence or not their fault. It depends on whether they are legally required to evacuate when the government tells them to, and whether they truly had the means.

[bee]

4. Im with you. I totally think its bullshit too.

If theyre going to start issuing criminal charges they need to look at the one responsible for the most deaths. * !

[political_invader]

13. Here you have Chimp Boy saying

He is taking responsibility for the government and he wont get charged with shit.

[knowbody0]

5. welcome political_invader

i am sure the blame will be spread out, but mandatory evacuation means get the fuck outta dodge. the hospital should have had a plan.

[Erika]

6. On TV tonight, a relative said she had called after the levee broke

and the nursing home assured her all would be fine. She lost her mother. A nurse there, later, said that many were abandoned and told to hang on to the ceiling vents.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Whoa_Nelly]

9. Since the nursing home people are indicted, then this should also apply to

Nagin, for not getting all out of NO, to Blanco, for not getting all the help she asked for, to FEMA, for impeding rescue and for not acting in a timely or efficient manner, to Cheney, for ordering that the pipeline be made operable over the needs of hospitals, to Bush, for staying on vacation and fiddling while Rome burned.

[political_invader]

16. Yes, that is my exact point.. nt

[ingac70]

45. I could live with that....

Sounds like a winner to me!

[newyawker99]

53. Hi ingac70!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[pitohui]

69. nagin has no jurisdiction in st. bernard parish

i wish ppl w.out any facts would just stop talking out of their rear ends

ray nagin had enough on his plate trying to evacuate orleans

you want him to take command & evacuate st. bernard parish also

him and what army?

[Neshanic]

10. Prove the 21 people lost story. Need the source.

[political_invader]

14. That came form the Family lawyer on CNN interview

Ill try and find the link you maybe able to watch the video on CNN.

[Neshanic]

18. Uh, the lawyer is not a credible source. Losing that many would be

in a newspaper or other publication.

By definition, everything that comes out of that lawyers mouth is a lie.

[Erika]

12. Why don't you question why the owners got out just fine

but many of the elderly died? The owners certainly didn't go down with the ship.

[Neshanic]

15. So did their entire family of many that were there....

according to lawyer/shill. They all got out.

Not one family loss for them. Their patients....well....

[patcox2]

57. And there's no requirement that they do so.

This is total bullshit. Tremendous disaster breathing down thieir necks, devastation will spread for hundreds of miles, and they are supposed to do what?

Bad shit happens sometimes. Its an authtoritarian, nazi-like personality trait to always want to see someone swing for it, and becoming nauseatingly more common in our society.

[LittleClarkie]

17. They could have had a plan

It's not like they were surprised to find themselves in hurricane country. There should have been a plan. And they themselves should not have abandoned ship. They should have stayed with those people like the doctors at the hospital did. I don't think I would charge them. But they did not do the right thing by any stretch of the imagination.

How could the loved ones have helped either. How did it help to call them?

I can't even imagine being the president of that one parish who's friend's mom died the way she did. My dad was in a nursing home for 4 years. What happened at that nursing home was NOT acceptable. The staff was responsible. They did not do their job.

[Erika]

24. They had to prove their ability for an emergency ecacuation

to get licensed. They filed a plan to get their license but never used the plan. They never called the ambulance service they contracted with for such an emergency.

They let those old poor people drowned and walked away.

[LittleClarkie]

26. Hi Erika. I'm Erica too

And that's how I feel about it too. I can't just pin it on Bush and walk away. The owners abandoned their charges. It would have been different if they'd gone down with the ship themselves, so to speak. But they didn't. It was a cowardly act in my book. If you work in a nursing home in hurricane territory, and you're not prepared to protect your charges, you shouldn't be working there.

[Erika]

32. Hi there! My mother was a life long nurse

and she would have never abandoned these people. She was also Christian.

[Horse with no Name]

41. Amen.

I have had this conversation in other threads.
You just don't leave your patients...that is not how it is done. Nobody seems to understand that.:(
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4760840&mesg_id=4761836
I'm not a lifelong nurse but I am getting there.

[LittleClarkie]

50. I'm not a nurse at all

Just someone who went to see her dad every day for four years in the nursing home, and brought him home every month. In a pinch, I could have brought dad home.

This topic makes me cry.

Indeed, you just don't leave your patients. In our rush to blame Bush, we're perhaps excusing folks for whom there is no excuse.

[Ladyhawk]

58. Yeah, it doesn't follow that the mayor / governor / FEMA is responsible

for this incident. The primary care providers for those patients were the nursing home staff. Apparently, they bugged out. Shame on them.

[patcox2]

104. Okay, now suppose a nursing home catches fire?

It happens all the time. Are the nurses required to stay and burn to death, if it is impossible to remove everyone in time? Just wondering.

[patcox2]

107. Can every home's plan work simultaneously?

Okay, in a vacuum, the plan works, zippidee-dooh-dah, we call the ambulance company and they whisk everyone away to safety, its all so simple.

But wait, whats happening, why, every single hospital and nursing home within 100 miles is simultaneously calling the same couple of ambulance companies. Hey, this plan might need some tweaking.

Do you suppose that there are enough ambulances (and crews) in any given state, county, whatever, to SIMULTANEOUSLY (or nearly so) transport every single hospital and nursing home patient 200 miles through a storm to safety?

Sanctimonious prig.

[patcox2]

109. Plans break down, services are overwhelmed, in a mass catastrophe.

Noone seems to see the fact that when every single person and every single institution and every single hospital and nursing home is simultaneously trying to deal with impending disaster, the services and means they expected to employ can be overwhelmed?

Are there enough ambulances and drivers in any given city or state to simultaneously transport every hospital and nursing home patient in that area 150 to 200 miles? On 48 hours notice, even? What about the roads, the traffic, would that be helping?

What about individual people, nurses, ambulance drivers, who have to think about getting their own families out to safety? So you are going to have high absenteeism, I would think, slowing it further.

My guess is that the people in charge of that nursing home spent most of their time pulling their hair out, desperately trying to find some means to evacuate them, screaming "oh fuck" in frustration, and basically panicking as they realize that there is nothing more they can do.

[Lethe]

19. on CNN the attorney said they evacuated 52 patients

did i hear this wrong? they evacuated 52 patients and left the rest because they would be in greater danger if they moved them.

[Neshanic]

20. Translation...We would have to hire more staff for this move.

[Lethe]

23. how are they supposed to hire staff during a hurricane?

[Erika]

25. They had a contract with an emergency ambulance service

and never called them. Wake up!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Correction: They had a contract with Acadien Ambulance..funny thing is

right after this story aired on CNN last night, there was another story of Acadien NOT SHOWING UP in Baton Rouge. I think people should wait til all the facts are in.
At this time, the only thing they definitely appear to be guilty of is not dying with their other patients. They had no legal obligation to die with their patients.

[political_invader]

30. Welcome to DU ikhor .. hope you like it here as much as I do nt

[Neshanic]

33. Do you know how many nurses were on staff at the time?

Do you know how many nurses or caregivers they had on staff at the critical time?

Obviously all the people who worked there were not there at the time of the impending water. They would have had to call in all staff to load the FREE busses to properly care for the transfer to a safe place when it was offered by the coroner with plenty of safe time.

They did not move them because it would of taken too much effort and time. Only the "easy" moves got out. The ones that needed more care and staff were gambled with and lost.

The owners and family did not loose any.

That begs the question.

What horrible moment did they decide to bail on left behinds?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Not true...the lawyer cited the fact that during prior hurricanes

AND THIS one, people who were THAT infirm died on the road in busses. Frankly I think if you want to take your ire out on a lying lawyer, take it out on the grandstanding DA. He filed those charges awfully fast.

[Erika]

21. Again, one of the relatives called and was assured her

mother would be evacuated. This was after the levee broke and it was know to all. She wasn't and she died. In addition, the ambulances the home had on contract for emergence evacuation was never called.

[LostinVA]

71. Almost all of the patients were from that parish

And had family IN THAT parish. All of the families were called and told what was going on. So, morally if not legally, those family members are also guilty.

That part of NO metro flooded incredibly fast per eyewitness accounts,a nd I honestly think the owners thought they were doing best. All reports say both they and the home were extremely well thought of, and then place was very well-managed. I honestly believe they were afraid those left in the home could die if they were moved unnecessarily -- and they thought it was unnecessary. If not for the flooding, the owners would have been spot on right, and would have been heroes. Just a horrible incident, and I also think the DA is foaming at the mouth to see someone -- ANYONE -- hang for this.

I'd rather see the law enforcements officers who stopped people from heading toward possible safety arrested.

[political_invader]

22. correct and due to the past evacuation when

They had lost 21 patients on a bus sitting in traffic from dehydration and ran out of oxygen they kept the remainder in the home.
this is what I heard on CNN.

[Erika]

27. Their contract was with an ambulance company NOT a bus company

[applegrove]

28. They were given the chance to evacuate & I think were under mandatory

orders to. Like everyone else. A nursing home does have resources to get a bus on a Saturday.

They chose to stay.

[Erika]

29. The state required an emergency evacuation plan which the home supplied

They never called the ambulances.

[applegrove]

31. Glad they are charged.

[political_invader]

37. Thank you Erika I did not hear that >>

However if this is true then I change my view and then hangum.

But I ask ya again where were they to go?

My understanding is on saturday all family members were notified they were staying. There own family members didn't come to get them out of there either. I'm sure more will come, I personally will be watching. Sounds like you will also.

thank you for your kind response.

[Horse with no Name]

43. What you have to understand

Is that many times the families of these people in nursing homes do NOT live in the vicinity...and sometimes live out of state.
You leave your family members in the care of professionals--and the nursing homes are paid very well for caring for these people, so even if the owner had to rent a church hall or community center to put these people, it was their responsibility to do so.
If you rent an apartment, and the apartment burns down...the complex has to either rent you a hotel room or get another apartment.
These people were contracted to provide room and board to these people...now whether or not they provided it at the site is a different matter, but their obligation was certainly to these patients.

[applegrove]

46. I saw one man being interviewed and he was out of town when katrina

hit and called and called but couldn't find out if they were evacuated afterwards. They were told the people would be there during the storm - but if you are not there - how can you go get them? You would assume that the home would have the specialized care to look after them & evacuate. Care you may not be able to give.

Anyway - it is shocking and devastating. The man said that his mother didn't have Alzheimer's and would have been fully aware that she was drowning like a rat - if she did indeed not make it.

[Digit]

34. They were the only ones who were not evacuating according to the doc

The PRUDENT thing to do was to evacuate with a storm of this magnitude bearing down.
My question would be about families who had loved ones here. If I had a loved one who was able to be moved with only my help, I would have done so.
On the other hand, if I had a loved one connected to all manner of equipment, what recourse would I have had? I guess I would have hired my own private ambulance to transfer them out.
This is what I did when my own mother was trapped down in NC after an icestorm. It cost me $1000 to have her brought 284 miles to Arlington, Va, but I was trying to save her leg, which we almost did.
Then again, we did not have a crisis of this proportion and I can imagine that ambulances were hard to come by.
My anguish of those who lost their beloved family members in such tragic ways brings tears to my eyes.

[Erika]

35. My thoughts are with you. How hard. n/t

[progressivebydesign]

66. Perhaps the family of these people didn't have 1k to hire an amb. n/t

[Horse with no Name]

36. This doesn't ring true

I recall hearing that a nursing home lost TWO patients in a move because of the heat...but I didn't hear where anyone lost 21.

On edit: I was wrong. It was THREE.

>>>>snip
3 Die While Fleeing Storm

An official with the East Baton Rouge Parish Coroner's Office said three residents of a New Orleans nursing home fleeing Hurricane Katrina aboard a school bus died Sunday during an evacuation to a Baton Rouge church.

The names, ages and sexes of the dead were not available.

Don Moreau, chief of operations, said the coroner's office responded to a call from emergency medical technicians to a Baptist church, which was the destination for the bus of nursing home patients. Once there, Moreau said one person was dead inside the church and another was found dead inside the bus.

He said the person in the bus appeared to have been dead for some time.

Moreau said the others on the bus, 21 people, were transported to Earl K. Long Hospital, where a third nursing home resident later died.

The coroner's office has not determined a cause of death for any of the three. However, Moreau said many people on the bus were suffering from dehydration.

It is not known how long the bus was on the road, but many other travelers reported drive times from the New Orleans area to Baton Rouge of several hours.

http://www.click2weather.com/weather/4909184/detail.html

[political_invader]

38. The lawyer comented on a past evacuation not relating to this incident. nt

[Horse with no Name]

39. See my post edit for the link. n/t

[political_invader]

42. Thank you for clearing that up for me.. nt

[Spangle]

40. Not enough info in that article to truely understand why they were charged

They themselfs and their family (including grandkids) stayed at the nursing home through the storm. It mentions briefly that they saved lives. Are they talking about others.. or were they able to move some to a higher level? Was there a higher level?

The deaths seems to be from drowning. Is the home close to the levee, were the water rushed in quickly?

[ingac70]

44. Didn't their license expire in July??

I thought I saw something about that on cnn when they initially found all the bodies.

In any event... tragic. All those poor folks, helpless as babies.

They lived so long, only to go out in a horrific ,scary way

I used to work in nursing homes, and I think the owners should have took their chances with evacuation. I don't know that they should be charged, though.

[Erika]

47. The owners chose not to follow their state filed plans for evacuation

Cry me a river. They are alive and there are 34 residents dead.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Doesn't sound like it was the best decision

But Foti said the owners had plenty of opportunity to move their charges out of the facility. The Manganos were asked if they wanted to evacuate the building and were offered buses; in addition, they had signed last April a contract with Acadian Ambulance Service to provide transportation in the event an evacuation was needed, Foti said, but "they were never called."

Dr. Bryan Bertucci, a coroner, said he called all five nursing homes in the parish as the storm was threatening the city, and all but St. Rita's said they were evacuating their patients.

By Sunday at 2 p.m., when the danger was imminent and a mandatory evacuation order had been issued, he called back and spoke with Mrs. Mangano.

"I told her I had two buses with two drivers that would take them wherever they want," Bertucci told CNN.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. I Believe In The Presumption Of Innocence

I also believe we are the party of compassion...


The nursing home owners fled to safety and left the most vulnerable behind to die a horrific death....


I call bullshit.....

[alphafemale]

51. Is this the same home that Parrish President so movingly talked about?

"She drowned Friday Night!"

[Princess Turandot]

52. According to the NY Times, all nursing homes were orderd to evac their..

patients before the storm struck, which would have preceded the flooding caused by the broken levees. The owners claim they did not receive that order. It isn't clear whether the order was a standing one in response to storms over a certain strength or specific to Katrina.

They were required to have an evacuation plan under any circumstances. Here in NYC, hospitals have them with other hospitals in the event that a catstrophe hits and causes them to need to send their patients to other facilities.

They had a contract with an ambulance company to move patients; I assume at least some of the patients who died were vent-dependent.They did not call the ambulance company.

Without knowing more facts, my guess would be that they had ridden out storms before and decided to not evacuate for both medical AND economical reasons, since those ambulances may have required payment from the home. Moving a large number of nursing home patients isn't easy under the best of circumstances. Once the storm passed by, they thought they were okay, but then the levees broke and the floodwaters came, at which point, they could likely do very little.

To me, the key question is whether there was an order in place to evacuate PRIOR to Katrina's making landfall. If there was, it should have been followed.

I'd be interested in knowing what other nursing homes in the area did.

[etherealtruth]

63. NPR's TOTN ...

reported yesterday that 15 Nursing Homes evacuated 30+ did not (I'll try to find a link; listened in my car). Some reportedly evacuated to the Convention Center and did not fare well there.

I am struggling with all the issues surrounding this and have been changing my mind moment to moment ...

How could nurses leave patients alone to die in this situation vs. what good would be served if the nurses died along side the patients (they would not have been able to provide any care in the situation???)

Primary care in Nursing homes is provided by nursing assistant with a low ratio of licensed professionals (RN's, LPN/LVN's), it is highly unlikely a physician would be present.

Are the charges grandstanding or did the owners have little regard for the safety of their patients and staff? is it possibly both?

Oh how I long to hear from ethicists ...I'm going crazy trying to sort this out!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. The fact that charges were filed so soon smacks of grandstanding

by the DA. I believe their lawyer has a very good case for acquittal based on his statements last night. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

[ecstatic]

59. MAYBE also charge the patient's kids?

If my parents were in a nursing home, and there were warnings of a Category 5 hurricane coming, I'd come down my damn self to pick them up--no matter what part of the country I lived in. Why did their kids and relatives abandon them like that?

[Horse with no Name]

60. That is harsh

The people that owned the Nursing Home were paid to take CARE of these elderly people.
Does it dawn on you that people in a nursing home are in their 80's and 90's and it is very likely their OWN children are in their 60's and 70's?
Perhaps with health problems of their own.
Perhaps they lived out of town--out of state.
There is also the chance some of the family may have been out of the country.
Generally people that CANNOT take care of their parents ANY longer...put their parents in a nursing home and PAY to have someone else take care of them.
It is clearly obvious that they did not fulfill their promise to do so.

[progressivebydesign]

67. you know NOTHING about the families. that's totally unfair!

Things don't really get me rattled.. but your comments about their "kids" really upsets me. You know NOTHING about the families! You don't know what their circumstances are, or what assurances they were given, or the whether they could do ANYTHING to help them. Abandon them? Kids??? If these people were in their fucking 90's, then their kids would be elderly themselves.

[ecstatic]

72. not meant to be hurtful, just saying what I would do

I wouldn't trust a nursing home to evacuate my parents safely. And if the kids are too old, then what about the grandkids. I'm just saying, if they had able family--then the family should have made sure the people were evacuated. Just my opinion.

[Horse with no Name]

84. What about the elderly who had no family?

They just fall through the cracks?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. Nursing Homes Are Awful Places

It'a a largely American invention...


In cultures where there is intergenerational responsibility nursing homes for the most part do not exist...

[pitohui]

70. contraflow means you couldn't drive south

once the evacuation was announced you could NOT drive into the area

only out of it

this is what contraflow means

there are a lot of jerks here from out of the area who know nothing abt what an evacuation is, what is involved, or what they would do

they have never been tested

so

easy for them to criticize

i strongly suggest if you don't know what the hell you are talking abt to stop making hurtful remarks

nobody puts their parents in a nursing home for fun

[ernstbass]

85. No - the nsg. home was being PAID to care for thier patients

[dogday]

61. When something like this happens, something

this devastating and horrific, they have to find someone to blame, they must find someone to blame. Hopefully all will be revealed during a trial. It cannot be settled in the news or on this board. It can only be decided by their actions during this emergency....

[LostinVA]

73. Per an article I read on Yahoo this morning

The majority of the patients' families lived in the parish.

[tuckessee]

62. They should've euthanized them.

Get a doctor and pump them full of morphine just like they did at the hospitals.

Then the owners would be lauded as heroes just like hospital doctors are.

[etherealtruth]

64. An informational point

Drugs such as morphine would not present in sufficient quantity (or not at all) in a nursing home. Sorry, I'm being pedantic.

[Horse with no Name]

75. Not only that

Doc's don't hang out at nursing homes unless they are making their ONE time a month visit.

[progressivebydesign]

65. I thought this was a rush to charge them... not enuff info yet.

From what the staff has said, they knew that you cannot just move some of the patients there without killing them. I do not disagree with that. What type of medical transportation was available to them?? Were they able to secure ambulances to transport the sickest of them? Becuase you cannot just load frail elderly and medically weak people into a minivan and go to howard johnsons with them.

They were right, they were able to ride out the storm. It was the flooding and the lack of help that eventually killed the patients. I'm conflicted on this.

[LostinVA]

78. I said the same thing up thread -- their instincts were correct

Itw as better to stay and ride out Katrina than to risk the lives of very fragile patients by moving them. The owners were RIGHT. The flooding in that area was apparently very bad and very quick. The quickness of the flooding was a surprise to many people.

What would have happened if they HAD moved some of the most fragile patients, and several have died? They would probably be charged and be ripped apart in the press, and half of DU would be saying how stupid they were to do that, and the other half would be saying they were just trying to save people. You know I'm right.

I'm not rushing to judgment until I hear more.

[pitohui]

68. if this is true

They had evacuated in the past and had lost 21 people on a bus do to no water or oxygen sitting in traffic. They honestly believed they were safer staying right where they were.



if this is true then they will be exonerated

every time you evac a nursing home or hospital you GUARANTEE that a certain # of ppl greater than zero will die

you have to make a choice abt which option is the best

i don't think any of us would like to be in this position where we had to decide

[Horse with no Name]

77. Except--look upthread for link

21 people didn't die.
They evacuated 21 and 3 died--but even better--18 LIVED.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. my take on this is that they are tyring to find

people to make responsible for failures at multiple levels....

This is just one more example of the shit rolling down from DC.

Now ponder this, the FEDS failed to respond, so are they responsible and should we try George Bush as the ultimate person in charge. I mean his people did not respond and so far confirmed hundreds have died and clsoe to a million are homeless.

In every disaster this happens, people run for cover and try to find somebody they can blame and have the anger directed at. After all, they are trying these people in the court of public opinion, not in a court of law. And for the record in situations like this, usually people are not charged... but if they are... why not charged the directors of every NOLA hospital where people died? This is the kind of pandora's box they may be opening.

[Horse with no Name]

76. Because in those hospitals

they didn't abandon the patients...the staff that was there tried to save lives to the best of their abilities.
It's the abandonment that is so cruel.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. I know, I know, but they also practiced

military medicine at the Airport, where non salvage ables were allowed to die.

Look this is a pandora's box they are opening and I mean the directors not the personnel, after all why did their equipment fail, because the directors ignored warnings to have fuel? I can spin this to the point they are going to look guilty as sin.. also from listening to the lawyer for them last night, there are truly two sides to this story and the Parrish may be guiltier than sin, so they are diverting to them... from what I heard we should be arresting the Coroner as well.

Of course Paula Zahn did not like that since it did not fit the script... and tried to stop the lawyer.

And the worst they can do is try them in the court of public opinion, THey think they have a case, go at it, but in a court of law... let the state present its evidence, and the defense present its evidence... after all while they left these people they were busy evacuating others, who still need help, per nurse who worked at the facility.


So was this truly abandonment or triage?

You tell me, having had to make triage decisions in my life, looks like triage.

[Horse with no Name]

80. Triage in this instance.

I agree...it is a total Pandora's box.
I'm very interested how this will end up playing out.
As I stated...if the Board rules that a Nurse can abandon a patient if her life is in danger...prepare for some nurses to abandon ship at the sign of tornadoes or fires...and they will have precedent to do so.
The hospital--which is already unsafe at best from medical errors--will become a death trap in the event of a natural or man-made disaster.
I personally wouldn't feel safe to put myself or my parent in one as a patient.
I talked with a friend last night from Florida who is a Nurse Manager for a busy cardiac unit.
She is going to talk to the risk manager attorneys today and ask for insight from their perspective...because this is indeed something that should be addressed.
I'll let you know what they say.

[etherealtruth]

81. I'm trying to gather opinions of ethicists ...

I don't even know what is right/wrong good/bad right now ... all I know is that everything associated with this is tragic; people suffered and people died :cry:

[Horse with no Name]

83. I think many people just consider nursing another job

They don't realize that we put our lives in danger dealing with deadly diseases on the norm.
IF they deem that a nurse can remove herself from harm's way, thus abandoning patients, there are a couple things that are of interest.
One would be that *I* personally would be more selective about who I would want to work with.
If I knew someone was pretty likely to cut bait and run at the first sign of peril, I wouldn't want to work with them.
Secondly, in the event of a draft of nurses (which would include many who didn't want to be there), would they be able to use a ruling such as this as precedent to refuse to practice in a war zone?

Interesting concepts. I am curious how it will play out. Please post your findings from the ethicists. I am very curious.

[etherealtruth]

86. I will ...

All the current "work" in this area is r/t mandatory overtime ...

[Horse with no Name]

90. I hate mandatory overtime

But I doubt they will be able to defeat it because it would leave patients with unsafe coverage.
Some facilities in our area abuse it and our board won't really take a stance on it.
The only thing they come close to doing is allowing safe harbor.
But make no mistake, Texas is a right to work state, if you enact safe harbor, you get fired.
There are no provisions for that.

[etherealtruth]

89. Kyra Phillips on CNN just reported ...

that STAFF and family members may be among the dead.

As an aside,
"If I knew someone was pretty likely to cut bait and run at the first sign of peril, I wouldn't want to work with them."
Nobody would ... the only issue I am entertaining is in the instance where there is NOTHING to be done except die along side ... but my fear there is: How (or whom) does one decide there's nothing to be done ... I have no opinion and my head is spinning ... I am really trying to think through all aspects of this ...and just don't know.

[Horse with no Name]

94. That is precisely the point I have been trying to wrap my head

around.
"How (or whom) does one decide there's nothing to be done"

To me, the legal answer and the ethical answer would be world's apart and would end up causing needless deaths.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. The standard the AG of LO

seems to want is one that will make practicing hard, to say the least... and ethically it is not the correct one either, for it will lengthen lives of patients with DNR orders, his standard, if I am readying this correctly will place DNRs at risk... put this on top of the Shiavo farce and I can now say this is part of that..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. Most Of The Staff At Nursing Homes Are LPNS and CNAS not RNS

There's a huge difference in training...

[Horse with no Name]

95. Not as much as you might think.

In our state, there are only 3 things an LPN cannot do that an RN can do.
Otherwise, we all practice under the same Board and the same Practice Act.
All nurses are held with their feet to the same fire.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. Exactly...

"I personally wouldn't feel safe to put myself or my parent in one as a patient."

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Well as a medic I had to decide

many a times who lived and who died, and those decisions still haunt me,

I still remember the two year old, I let go... agonal respirations, fixed pupils you know the type... I had to let her go because we had another fifty patients, and quite frankly I only had 10 medics, most of them basic EMTs...

(and not the resources of an American response since I practiced my trade in Mexico as a volunteer for the red cross so I even had to decide who got the Oxygen bottles since we did not have that many)

So the question to those quick to convict, (not you) did I abandon that kid when we basically placed her on a backboard to the side with a nice non salvageable tag on her little arm? Took her a long ten minutes to breath her last and if we did not have another 49 patients, we would have tried, even done CPR... we didn't, we just put her to the side and moved to the next patient, a 69 year old male with a broken femur, who needed IV fluids, O2 and management of his COPD on top of everything.

That is in essence military and disaster medicine, and it is quite removed from the niceties of a suburban first world Medical center, which is what most Americans are used to... NOLA would have been very familiar to me... kind of what I used to do, with just about the same amount of resources... short and shorter...

That is why I am not quick to convict but they are opening a hell of a pandora's box

Now to the issue of drafted nurses, the standard you cited is civilian . IN the military, you are supposed to defend your patients even to the extent of sacrificing your life. That is why in a combat zone medics and nurses are authorized to carry with them a side arm, either 9 mm or 45 ACP, which are the most common side arm calibers around the world. As technically a reserve officer for seven of the ten years I even challenged a Full bird on that, but that is a different kettle of fish.

[ernstbass]

82. Their policies and procedures should have spelled this out

It is part of state and federal nsg home regs. When one runs a nsg home, one accepts responsibility for their residents. The actions of these persons are inexcusable. Ventilator patients could have been evacuated by ambulance. Every other nsg home in the parrish evacuated. I hope these people rot in jail.

[Catrina]

101. I disagree because I do not know all the facts

Someone upthread said that this particular nursing home had evacuated before and lost patients.

This is not so. This Home was on high ground and had never evacuated in 20 years and never lost a patient to a storm

The patients who died was a reference to other Nursing homes who had evacuated and lost patients in the process.

It seems that this home did agonize over the decision, and felt that they would definitely lose patients in any evacuation attempt. That seems to be a given. Then, if the storm passed as it had always in the past, those people would have died needlessly.

They had informed all family members of their decision, and stocked the home with a ten day supply of food, water, medicines etc. expecting they might not be able to get deliveries after the storm passed.

But the water, after the levees broke, apparently rose very rapidly. They were there, and saved over 50 of their patients ~ they apparently were on their own and were unable to get the rest of the patients out. It was incredibly tragic.

As far as the mandatory evacuation order, apparently they never got one from their parish. That seems to be in dispute. We'll have to wait and see.

They had an excellent record over 20 years of caring for their patients with no complaints on record, from what the news said.

Paula Zahn wanted to know WHY DIDN'T THEY KNOW ON FRIDAY that this would be a Cat. 5 Hurricane and they should do something. She was very aggressive with their lawyer. I hope when she has the chance she will ask Bush, Cheney, Condy, Rummy, Chertoff et al, the same tough questions ~ since they were in a far better position to know these things. But I won't hold my breath.

The blame game is now in full swing ~ little people at the bottom, who do bear some responsibility, will be prosecuted and hung out to dry, and that will satisfy the public that we have done something.

Just like Abu Ghraib!! A few 'bad apples' will have their pictures taken (at their worst) and will be called 'evil' and we will be distracted from the crimes of the real criminals. They, over time, will be totally rehabilitated and will even have the gall to bemoan the fact that Nursing Home personel sadly, did not protect those in their care.

Then, the real perpetrators of this massive crime, will be given medals of freedom and promotions ~ and the Gulf Coast will be rebuilt for their rich friends and contributors ~ and we'll all wonder how the next atrocity they are responsible for could have happened.

Btw, speaking of 'bad apples' being prosecuted while the real culprits are rewarded. That doesn't work. There is a hunger strike taking place in Guantanamo Bay by the detainees. They are now being forcibly fed.

I guess focusing on Lyndie England didn't stop the atrocities from continueing, and focusing on a few people in a nursing home, no matter how responsible they turn out to be, will not stop the next atrocity either. I prefer to keep my eyes on the real criminals ~ without them, none of this needed to happen.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. These Are The Exact People Who Are Our Charges

"It was once said that the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped."

Hubert H. Humphrey

[Horse with no Name]

92. This is the State of Texas Board of Nursing position statement on

patient abandonment:

"Patients under the care of a nurse are vulnerable by virtue of illness, injury, and/or the dependent nature and unequal power base of the nurse-patient relationship. Persons who are especially vulnerable include the elderly, children, the mentally ill, sedated and anesthetized patients, those whose mental or cognitive ability is compromised, and patients who are physically disabled, immobilized, restrained, or secluded. It is this dual-vulnerability (client status and nurse’s power base) that creates the nurse’s duty to protect the client."

http://204.65.35.7/position.htm#15.6

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. I Was Making A Broad Statement

I am a liberal because I believe it is the responsibility of society whether acting through formal institutions like government or through the benificence of individuals to help those who can't help themselves.....


Everything else is commentary...

[Horse with no Name]

97. I was in agreement with you

It is OUR responsibility to care for those who cannot care for themselves, that is what separates the civilians from the barbarians.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

99. I Know...

I believe in the presumption of innocence


I'll let the facts unfurl....


It's sure seems like a prima facie casec of negligence...


I am willing to wait to see if negligence did occur and if that negligence rose to the level of involuntary homicide...

There might be some nice nursing homes but the majority of the ones I saw were awful...

[patcox2]

102. Mandatory government enforcement of "beneficence?"

I am a liberal because I believe in collectivism and using the government as the tool for providing aid to those who need it.

But I am also a liberal because I think the government should allow the greatest possible amount of inividual freedom.

So its one thing to say "I want the government to take care of people in need."

Its another to say "I want the government to throw individuals who fail to take care of people in need in jail."

The one position has nothing to do with the other.

Think about this fact: There was one person, one last employee, whether a doctor, nurse, nurses aid, or janitor, or even the owner, who was the last to leave that nursing home. He or she looked around, saw all those people, saw the storm outside, knew that they could do nothing, so tell me, what should they have done?

The nurses duty not to abandon the patients is irrelevant here.

Fires sometimes occurr in nursing homes, and the patients are killed because they cannot be evacuated quickly enough. Are the nurses guilty of abandonment for failing to stay and be burned alive? No, but the owners or management may be culpable of they created a dangerous condition which resulted in the fire.

Here, the issue is not settled by the simple fact that these patients were not evacuated. It is clear that they COULD NOT be evacuated. Smartass blame-layers here are all talking like "well, the owners could have called the ambulance company." As if this were the only nursing home in the state that might happen to be calling the ambulance company on that day. What do you suppose happens to ambulance companies when EVERY SINGLE NURSING HOME for 150 miles is simultaneously evacuating, and at the same time, half of their drivers are heeding the mandatory evacuation order and trying to get their own families to safety and thus are not coming to work?

Its called a disaster because bad things happen that nobody could have stopped, if people are capable of stopping all the bad things that happen in a hurricane just because they have 48 hours notice, then hurricanes wouldn't be such a big deal.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. You Are Throwing So Many Terms Around

I am not a collectivist... We can discuss that another day...


"Its another to say "I want the government to throw individuals who fail to take care of people in need in jail."


Nice strawman you got going there... I never suggested that...


The only question is whether the nursing home owners negligent and does that negligence rise to the level of involuntary manslaughter...

Let's turn to the legal definition of negligence if we may:


NEGLIGENCE - The failure to use reasonable care. The doing of something which a reasonably prudent person would not do, or the failure to do something which a reasonably prudent person would do under like circumstances. A departure from what an ordinary reasonable member of the community would do in the same community.


http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/n010.htm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

111. More

So what we have here at least is prima facie evidence of negligence...


Is there enough exculpatory evidence such as were the owners of the nursing home aware of the danger the impending hurricane presented and did they do everything a reasonable man or woman could do to make those in their care safe....

We'll see in the fullness of time...

Though I'd bet my home and car a lawyer right out of law school could prevail in a negligence case against these owners....

Does this negligence rise to criminal behavior?


That's a more dicey question...

[bigluckyfeet]

98. My Great Aunt Was In A Nursing Home

In New Oreleans,and she was moved to Baton Rouge.

[Horse with no Name]

100. I'm glad she is safe

Let me ask you some hypotheticals that have been brought up.
How would you have felt if she were left to die and would you have been able to drop everything as her relative and evacuated her yourself?

[spanone]

105. How many died waiting for the Feds to rescue them??????

Maybe George, who is 'responsible' could be sued?

[txaslftist]

108. Charging the owners is someone playing CYA, IMO.