God DAMN, I wish us DUers could whip up this much support against a flag-

[Guaranteed]

burning Amendment.

I've already declared my intention to renounce my citizenship the day it becomes Constitutional to outlaw burning the flag, if the day ever comes. The right to burn the flag, in my view, is basically free speech's defining act, and what makes America, America. Despite my feeling about this freedom, many DUers seem to be able to take it or leave it (ha ha :P ).

Oddly, though, "under God," which has been in the pledge for fifty years, now, is getting DU all riled up. We're demanding immediate action.

Yes, it's unconstitutional and will hopefully be gotten rid of someday. But can't this wait too? It's not even as important.

[melissinha]

1. equally important

in my book, both on some levels are about Free Speech or Freedom not to speak.... but I think the pledge goes a step further as its almost an indoctrination of the idea that the church and state are not separate. Thats what I don't like about it.

[Guaranteed]

2. What I don't like about banning flag-burning is that it's saying that

you're not allowed to disagree with your government.

Doesn't leave much room for democracy.

[Caution]

10. "It's not OK to disagree with my religion" is JUST as important.

Don't you think?

[Guaranteed]

11. It's only two words. They're not forcing you to read the Bible.

It's been that way for 50 years, and you don't have to recite the pledge anyway.

"Under God" is bad, but it's not nearly as bad as being lawfully prohibited from taking the most overt action in showing one's displeasure with one's government, as protected by the 1st Amendment.

That would put an enormous hole in the 1st Amendment, and effectively destroy the whole idea behind the United States.

[Caution]

12. I would argue that "Under God" has already put an enormous hole

in the 1st amendment and this ruling is the first step to closing that hole. This is enormously important to the atheist, agnostic and separation of church and state supporters out there. Who are you to tell me what I shoudl and should think is important? Who are you to tell me that I shouldn't spend time on this issue and that I shouldn't bring it up because it's "divisive" or a "hot button issue" that will "rally the right wing troops"

I'm frankly shocked that someone would argue that the flag burning amendment is as important as this issue. Afterall, it's just a flag. The amendment would ONLY disallow burning of that one thing and not disallow any other forms of speech. It just one flag and one form of free speech.

Oh wait. That's EXACTLY the same argument you are trying to use against me. This is only ONE small portion of the separation of church and state. Who cares if it is out there? Don't you realize this is used EVERY damned day by those who wish to establish a national religion as one of the reason their other initiatives are OK? "The Courts have allowed "under god" in the pledge and on money, so it must be ok to have the 10 commandments in a court room, or it must be ok for students to have an organized prayer time"

[BiggJawn]

18. It's only cloth. There's OTHER ways to "show your displeasure"

"it's only two words"

That's it, I'm OUT of THIS discussion!

You COULD make a show out of wiping your ass on a picture of whoever's president at the time you wanted to publicly "show your displeasure"
Or go torch some red-white-and-blue BUNTING. Most couldn't tell the diference.

"it's only two words"

Yeah, and "It's only a coupla hours on Sunday and Wednesday night, it's not gonna KILL you!"
Or
"They're just WORDS, you don't have to believe them in your heart"

SHEEEE-YIT!

[salvorhardin]

19. My issue is more important than your issue

:sarcasm:

[Moochy]

3. Remedy?

What is your remedy, that the judicial system be more sensitive to political cycles?
seriously though don't confuse democratic or republican political machines with the judicial system. They are independent, and to ascribe some political stupidity on democrats part for "championing" this issue is just plain wrong, and ignores the facts of how our system of government works.

[Guaranteed]

4. The remedy is to ignore and avoid the issue in the media.

It's the media that matters. The time spent on the issue in the media, the polarization due to time spent on it in the media.

Of course we can't tell judges how to rule. It's too late for that anyway. But people are wanting to push this.

[Moochy]

8. Thanks for clarifying

Thank you for clarifiying, many threads here have seemed to rail against the judges or the plaintiff and I think thats just silly.

If you are saying that the you hope left leaning pundits dont' try and champion this issue as a major talking point, I think that will be the case. Noone is speaking up for secularism these days. Better to wrap yourself in a flag and climb the cross.

[izzie]

5. I bet the reason I am like I am is because I did not say 'under God'

I got out of high school in '53. I knew there was a reason I was so sinful.

[sui generis]

6. hey! we reserve the right to be outraged

OUTRAGED I TELL YOU!

about this mega supercritical issue

It's not a big deal for us to take it out of schools, I agree. It touches on something you said that most Americans can't comprehend: "if it comes to that I will renounce my citizenship."

Listen up America - if you fuck it up bad enough for long enough, don't expect to be collecting my tax dollars from me or my gene line. Don't expect me to contribute my AWESOME BRILLIANCE AND SUPER MIGHTINESS to your backwards nation, and DO expect me to voluntarily fight in defense of Canada when you start sending your bubbas across the border to steal their/our oil.

Our ancestors and some of us were immigrants to the U.S. because it was a land of hopes and dreams. If there are better places to go, then there are better places to go. Stuff that in your free market ass and smoke it.

[Walt Starr]

7. Don't worry, if the Dems don't fall for the bait of the pledge

I guarantee you, the Repukes will bring up (yet) another flag burning amendment.

[Guaranteed]

9. I hope we DO fall for that one.

The great thing about the right to burn the flag is that if we show REAL leadership in defending it, we can easily out-patriot the Repukes. We could win it, just with due courage.

It's more difficult in defending the separation of church and state, and the other aspects of the 1st Amendment. The potential for rhetoric isn't as great.

[DanCa]

13. IMO I could never burn a flag or a book that's just me.

Half the times my hands shake too much light a match anyway. I basically believe america is still good however the people running this country are seriously screwed up.

[Qibing Zero]

14. I'm with you. If that ever happens,

I'll know America has finally lost it. I still have hope for a good portion of the people, but the wake-up calls keep coming, and nothing happens...

[Az]

15. Same arguments

The dems need to stop playing short game tactics and stand up for something. They need to explain why they are standing for it and stick by it, win or lose. Thats character. Thats why so many moderates and others won't even look at the dems. They simply don't trust us.

[Book Lover]

16. Wait for what, exactly?

The decision was issued in accordance with the court calendar, as far as I can ascertain from the public information I could gather. When else are we supposed to discuss it? After all the courts have ruled against us and the law is more firmly fixed? Right, I can just see libertarians and nonaligned liberals rushing to our side then.

[salvorhardin]

17. It's not a zero sum game

Supporting one does not detract from support for the other.

Tyeing this into Az's post above, both are first amendment issues. It's much better to say "Democrats strongly support the 1st amendment" and then do it. If the Democrats did not vote for idiotic things like flag burning amendments and supported removing the egregious breach of the establishment clause from the pledge and all other first amendment issues then I think you might see public favor swing towards the Democrats.

[Gnostic]

20. What I don't like either

About flag burning is it seems entirely pointless to me. Exactly what is it someone feels they are protesting against with such an act? Is it simply to commit something so completely outrageous that it can't help but garner attention to a certain cause? I would tend to believe more in the opposite direction whereas yes, it will garner attention, but it will do more damage to any cause it's spotlighting than good. The flag represents the people of this country as well as the nation, supposedly "unified", itself. Many men before us suffered greatly and died for that symbol of what they considered undoubtedly at the time of their home, family and honor. Regardless of whether one thinks that symbolism is mis-placed or even false, it does not give one the ethical right of blatantly and in-your-face destroying such symbolism for the sake of making a lame point.

I believe if one wants to see their country improve, and wants to help in that improvement, a more positive display of sentiment may be in order. Sure, all of us from time to time become negative, or even outrageous in our actions, deeds or thoughts about something, but making a knowingly deeply insulting public display of it serves only to weaken and disrespect any motivation behind it. And that is why I think many even extreme liberals will not throw their full weight or attention behind that.