A note about socialism re: Bush's speech.

[Taxloss]

Socialism does not mean "giving stuff away". It means public ownership of utilities and industries. It certainly means state support for those that need it; but this is coupled with a comparatively conservative view of budgeting.

In short: being a socialist doesn't mean doling out endless cash on a deficit.

[Fenris]

1. Thank you.

People seem to forget that.

[Zuni]

2. exactly

tell that to the morons at freerepublic and the "other site"

[Taxloss]

3. It seems necessary to tell it here, as well.

Which is a pity.

[Zuni]

7. I think of socialism like this

a company has stocks, but instead of selling it on the stock market they are distributed among the employees, so the workers own the company

I know it isn't exact, but that is how I think of it. Public ownership of utilities and other public services is essential as well

[Taxloss]

12. Yes, it should be something like that.

[htuttle]

23. It's a 'worker cooperative' if ONLY employees own voting stock

I've been working at one for many years.

The way it works is that each employee buys a share of stock when they get hired (after a short probationary period). Only stockholders who are currently employed by the cooperative (part time or full time) can vote.

The voting membership (who all work there) elects Directors to the Board of Directors every year (at least 1/3 of the Board is up for election any given year). This is a part time (and very low paid...I would know) position that meets as needed, but usually once or twice a month, with various committee meetings in between. The Board hires the Management, who serve at the 'pleasure of the Board' -- no contracts. Management runs things 'day to day', and reports to the Board every month, and has representitives on most working committees (as opposed to the ones that plan parties, etc...).

Anyway, we celebrated our 25th anniversary a few years back, so worker coops definitely 'work', so to speak. You can even run a large complex set of connected industries and services this way -- look up the 'Mondragon coop' in Spain for one so big that it could almost pass as a government.

You might want to google for 'Rochedale principles' if you want to find out more about Worker Coops.

[chalky]

24. No. Please. Don't tell them that.

Let them stew in their ignorance.

[JimmyJazz]

4. Socialism means having a government of the people, by the people,

for the people. It means having a government that makes decisions based on the best interests of the people, not what is in the best interests of Halliburton. It is not a bad word. I am a socialist and damned proud of it.

[Taxloss]

5. Hell yeah.

:hug:

[ghostsofgiants]

15. Fuck yes!

And I'm with you completely on that.

[the_spectator]

6. You are correct - however,...

Absolutely right. Socialism doesn't mean "giving stuff away" or deficit spending. It does mean public ownership of the "commanding heights" of industry. But Socialists ALSO believed that public/government ownership of such "commanding heights" would actually HELP economic growth!!! Socialists believed that the government, through planning, could increase overall prosperity faster and more efficiently than private enterprise. It DID NOT WORK. We are all capitalists now. We realize that capitalism is the goose that lays the golden eggs, we just debate, now, how many of those golden eggs should be redistributed to the less fortunate or used to pay for public projects.

[Zuni]

8. good points

I believe the only economy that really works is a blend of capitalism and socialism. Right now, the US needs a big injection of socialism. We certainly have the capital part down right

[Taxloss]

10. The goose that lays the golden egg is factory-farmed, tortured and sick.

No, the original socialists did NOT believe in government ownership of "the commanding heights" (I love that phrase, it's perfect). They believed in WORKER ownership of industry. That is public ownership. A more modern system would use co-ops, buildings societies and reformed equity.

Labour - honest pure labour - is the golden goose in this equation, and it is being killed by capitalism.

[htuttle]

20. That's the Proudhon vs Marx debate

Always been a bigger fan of Proudhon, except when Libertarians quote him to excuse their selfishness. Proudhon's words have been twisted to other's motives as often as Marx's.

In the final analysis, it's only Robert's Rules of Order that separate us from total chaos.

[mmonk]

11. FDR proved

that Darwinian capitalism isn't as good as government involvement with capitalism.

[bread_and_roses]

13. What "Capitalism" lays aint no golden egg

Capitalism gets up and leaves behind deadly pollution, impoverished workers, and the dead bodies of the people it works to death or poisons with defective products made cheap to increase profit. I don't call those "golden eggs" and I am constrained from spelling out exactly what I would call them by a weak stomach and childhood inhibitions.

REGULATED Capitalism - ie, Capitalism bound by Law and Regulation that protects workers and the environment ameliorates those horrors, oppressions, and exploitations to level bearable to most people most of the time.

The less regulation, the more gross and egregious the exploitation and destruction.

I am not one of the "we" in your "we are all Capitalists now" in case there was any doubt.

[htuttle]

21. US Capitalism means "Socialize the Costs, but Privatize the Profits"

Our current economic system is closer to Mussolini's Fascism than anything else.

Corporations and government, 'hand in hand' -- or rather, 'hand in pocket'.

[Taxloss]

22. Yes, it's a massive redistribution system

It is transferring resource control from the many to the few.

[Qibing Zero]

9. Yes, this isn't socialism

It's insanity.

Hey, keep that tax cut, we don't need it. What, stop spending? No way, we've got a war to finance and a city that needs rebuilding!

Any doubts still left about the fact they're trying to destroy the country?

[MissMarple]

14. It's putting one's money, wisely, where one's values are.

Is that what you're saying? ;)


But shouldn't it also incorporate private ownership? Public services should be the vital services, the utilities, health care, infratructure, things like that where private interest would have a dire conflict with public welfare.

[Taxloss]

17. Yes, pretty much.

A belief that the money one is able to generate through labour should work for society as a whole, not simply for oneself. Of course, you reap benefits from that transaction as well.

[TahitiNut]

16. It's "National Socialism" ... remember the words he used.

"more federal powers and a greater role for the military."

Sieg Heil.

[markus]

18. Given what?

A $2,000 check? A $5,000 retraining account? A lottery for the priviledge to live on a reservation on federal land somewhere else?

If this is socialism, I'll take social darwinism, thank you very much.

[Taxloss]

19. Well, it isn't socialism.

A genuine socialist economy would be finding jobs and homes for these people - jobs and homes they want.