One Answer to: What Traditional Conservatives Admire about Shrub

[UTUSN]

I sent the local radio talkshow wingnut this e-ltr (while he was on the air, interviewing a wingnut professor--dang those Lib profs):

What Do Traditional Conservatives Admire about Shrub?

He has stood everything traditional Conservatives profess on its head: Fiscal responsibility, responsibility of ANY kind, isolationism, States' rights, and much more. So you---and I'm talking to YOU, xxx---------in your continuing idolatry of Shrub, what you've got going is JUST a personality cult. And gawsh, such an unlikeable personality to boot!

**********His Reply, QUOTE***********

Brief reply—in between hours-=-I NEVER idolized Bush. There were things I admired. I especially liked that he was not that supercilious, holier-than-thou prig Al gore or John Kerry. If Bush is taking us fast to Big Government, how much faster would those Sopcialist-flavored Democrats take us to Big Government hell? I have always thought Bush’s margin to get in office was the fact of his opponents. Democrats could not make it and cannot make it with the current thiunking they have. A Scoop Jackson or moderate Demo would have beat Bush.

************UNQUOTE**********

[NewJeffCT]

1. A lot of Republicans & moderates held their noses & voted Bush

Because the media & Republicans had so successfully demonized Kerry (and Gore in 2000) that they thought of Bush as the lesser of 2 evils.

Heck, I knew one guy that said he disagrees with Bush on just about everything, but voted for Bush because he hates trial lawyers (John Edwards) even more than Bush. He said if Kerry had picked anybody but Edwards, he would have voted Kerry.

[BillZBubb]

8. "if Kerry had picked anybody but Edwards..."

I've heard so many right wing morons give excuses like that, it's just bullshit. If Kerry hadn't picked Edwards, his excuse would be something else. Repugs will always find some justification for voting for their weasel of a nominee. Always.

[atommom]

2. What a shabby debunking of our "current thiunking."

I'll take a double scoop of Sopcialist-flavored Democrats...

[UTUSN]

3. Yip, Shrub's THROWING CASH on a One-time Basis

is NO ongoing program. One of the questions the wingnut asked on the radio was, "What are we going to tell the NEXT disaster victims, and the NEXT and the NEXT?---about why we CAN'T do this again and again? We'll say that it was done THIS TIME because (Shrub) had to do SOMETHING fast, but this doesn't mean it can continue."

[atommom]

4. The whole process is so ass-backwards. Rather than listening to

those who warn him of impending disaster, and taking steps to avoid it, he's allowing disaster to strike and then throwing money at it in a disastrously inefficient way. Of course he's still taking care of Halliburton, etc., but we certainly can't expect him to take care of the rest of us.

[chalky]

5. "I NEVER idolized Bush. There were things I admired. "

Well I admire raindrops and roses and noses on kittens. Know what they have in common with Dubya? Not a damn one of them can run a country, either.

And a five-year-old could have summed up the rest of his argument in a lot fewer words: "Well, he's better than poopy-head Al! Kerry woulda done worser! I'm rubber and you're glue! You didn't win 'cause your daddy's a butt face, so there!"

[Marr]

6. He doesn't think John Kerry and Al Gore were moderates.

The man is an idiot.

[Telly Savalas]

7. Huh? What "traditional conservatives"?

Fiscal responsibilty? It's been nearly 50 goddamn years since a GOP president has signed a balanced budget.

Isolationism? Reagan, Nixon, Ike? Please. There was a brief spell in the first half of the 20th century when cons expressed disdain for getting involved in European matters, but this was preceded by nearly a century of imperialism. Traditional conservatives are not isolationists.

States' rights? This wasn't a conservative principle so much as a means of maintaining institutionalized racism.

This "neocons have hijacked the GOP" meme needs to die. Conservatives have always been extremists whose agenda is at odds with the well being of our nation.

[UTUSN]

10. You're Right. So What Is "Trad Conservatism"? Just Robber Barons?

As in, carpet-bagging reconstruction contracts after the interventions/destructions?

[UTUSN]

9. And Then I Said (no reply yet)

Shrub's THROWING CASH like a drunken sailor---and I *ARE* a drunken sailor---is NO form of social reform. It is just shocking and repulsive.

His THROWING CASH is a one-time frat party, not an ongoing, socially conscious PROGRAM. I'm sure you are aghast at BOTH forms.

As for "holier-than-thou PRIGS GORE-KERRY,"----------pul-LEEZE, just listening to Shrub's Pharaseeism makes me PUKE! Do you REALLY take his "faith" at face value? Howard DEAN sez Shrub told him, when they were both governors-peers, what he REALLY thought of the Christian Coalition. DEAN has not spelled out what that was, but the hint was that it wasn't pretty.

---------THEN I said:
The Inappropriate, Disproportion of Wingnut Support for Shrub

What's truly bizarre in the wingnuts rationalizing their support of Shrub/Selections of Shrub over GORE-KERRY, and over "Liberalism" in general:

Supposedly, wingnuts want "traditional values," and are willing to stand by the dude who will plunge the country into massive debt and chaos------------SO LONG AS THE ALL IMPORTANT THINGS LIKE THIS DON'T HAPPEN---that Gays cannot marry, that the Pledge contains "under God" (and this is back just in time for '06)-------and other EARTHSHAKING ISSUES----NOT!-------- like this.

Your "big Government" thingy just doesn't wash, as the reason you follow Shrub, or that no-matter-HOW-Big Shrub's government HIS would be SMALLER than GORE-KERRY. Not so, oh Superficial One------CLINTON slashed "Welfare" and tamed the budget and deficit in some ways-------and you STILL wouldn't be caught dead supporting him-----or ANY Dem, admit it.

[UTUSN]

14. A Pre-emptive Apology

In my #9, I give the appearance that I marginalize the Gay-marriage and "under God" issues. In my ideal Dem world, TOTALLY EQUAL civil rights for EVERYBODY and TOTAL separation of State-church would be INTEGRAL. I was trying to say that wingnuts equalize 100,000 dead and counting with supposedly "values" issues.

[nonconformist]

11. How much faster would the DEMOCRATS?

Well, let's see...

8 years of Reagan and 4 years of Poppy left us in massive debt and increased poverty (and those receiving government assistance).

A Democrat, Clinton, took office and managed in 8 years to turn that debt around to a record surplus. He decreased poverty and spearheaded welfare reform, kicking many off of government assistance.

Bush is appointed to office by the SCOTUS, and spends that surplus PLUS puts us in the largest deficit in history. Poverty has increased, people on government assistance has increased. Pork barrel is RAMPANT, I mean RAMPANT. He created a sprawling new government cabinet, DHS, which has since proven to be a complete waste of space and money.

These people just keep spewing things like "tax-and-spend liberals" and "socialist big government" when the REALITY is that *they're* the ones doing that!!

[durablend]

16. Tis called "projection"

Just remember ANY TIME one of them whines and pouts about how "liberals are doing 'whatever'", the right is doing it in SPADES (and more often than not TOTALLY GETTING AWAY WITH IT)

[TahitiNut]

12. The "left behinds" grew up and vote for spitballs instead of textbooks.

These are the folks who sat at the back of the classroom and heckled the good students sotto voce. These are the folks who sat in the bleachers and sneered at the band, made suggestive remarks about the cheerleaders, and called the school athletes stupid names. These are the kids who never attended a student council meeting and who used study hall to read comic books. These are the 'C' and 'D' students, not because of mental defects but because of behavioral issues. These are the indolent - too lazy to build but not too lazy to vandalize.

They resent accomplishment. They sneer at intellectual integrity. They throw dog shit at pride and drench ego in beer. These are the "heroes" of the local barroom. These are the poet laureates of the long neck. They finally have one of their own, not to admire but to share the inside joke of derision and intolerance.

[atommom]

13. Well-said!

[RandomKoolzip]

15. Hmmm....

"......and called the school athletes stupid names. "

In my high school, that's exactly how the athletes themselves acted.

[TahitiNut]

18. Yes, it has been my personal experience that high schools vary ....

... a great deal in this regard. I went to two high schools. The first, in a blue collar community, relegated the best students to a kind of 'social zoo' - partitioned from the kids who were most representative of the community demographics. Thus, the sports teams were populated by kids who were most likely to enter the trades, few of whom would go on to college. The shit-throwing "left behinds" were often truants, often drunk, and often unwashed. They were also the most likely to lay in waiting for some "egghead" in his way home from school.

The second high school I attended was in a 'changeover' community - once small and rural, it was being suburbanized by the white collar middle class. The administration and faculty of the high school consciously propelled the college-bound into student leadership and athletics. Thus, the cheerleaders, student council, and sports teams were populated mostly by honor roll students. Still, there were the "left-behinds" - kids who were mental and emotional drop-outs. They were the "back of the bus" and "back of the class" cynics - resentful and largely goal-less.

From my second high school, we have successful attorneys and professionals. Not surprisingly, however, the most brainless Bushbots are ones who became career enlisted people in the military and "ring-around-the-collar" car and insurance sales types. My closest buddy (and competitor) got his MD from Johns Hopkins, his JD from Georgetown, and became the Director of the Medical Staff of the FDA before early retirement -- he's now Chairman of the Board for a biotech start-up.

Every high school has its "left-behinds," though. (I came close to being one - but academics were just too easy for me.) How many and how entrenched varies depending on the effectiveness of the faculty and staff. In some cases, sports is the "consolation prize."

[nonconformist]

21. Great post! nt

[ComerPerro]

17. No one can honestly campaign as a Conservative and win

[UTUSN]

19. His Response to My E-ltr in Post #9

*********QUOTE*********

In partial reply—Bush is trying to buy his way out of perceived problems. Bad. Won’t work. You’re right that he’s throwing money at it. It now federalizes all disaster response no matter how small. The road to Hell.

I believe Bush is a Christian. That is because I believe that Jesus was the son of god, was crucified for our sins, was resurrected and will return, the tenants of the faith. Now, does he act all Christiany? No. But the fact that some people don’t think he comports to THEIR view of what a Christian should be doesn’t make him NOT a Christian, or an imposter, either. And I have not much use for the Religious Right or Falwell and that crew. I guess I don’t think the Religious right is very Christiany or a “good witness” which I realize looks like it flies in the face of what I just said. It would take too long to fully explicate.

Again, I think federalizing everything is a natural Democratic inclination; I think it is part of the point of view of the national Democratic Party. Look at all the people saying that the slow FEMA response just shows that we need people who “believe” in government. The problem with government “having a role” in things is that it quickly takes over everything, killing off civil institutions. Bush’s Katrina reaction should please those who think a Washington response is the right one all the time.

*************UNQUOTE*******

[UTUSN]

20. I'm Going to Kick This Just Because n/t

[agincourt]

22. My experience with people who call themselves conservatives now,

is that it is not so much a political party as a religion. No matter how callow and useless Bush is , the big story is that people are saying bad things about Bush, rather than any concern for Katrina dead or even about the loss of the port. They will invent cockamanie phrases like "liberals are saying that Bush is responsible for all global warming" and repeat it over and over again like a prayer. When you ask them specifically which liberal said this you don't get any answer just a dirty look as you are not supposed to question their "faith". If Bush goes down in the polls they get snappy and irritable as their church is losing sheep. They are smug and contented in their own stupidity and you cannot tell them 1+3=4, because saying 1+3=6 is intellectual brilliance and also gets you to heaven above all the sinners. Traditional conservatives I never see, only RW groupies who go to the church of the GOP.

[UTUSN]

23. Difference Between "Wingnut" and "Conservative" n/t