Wow I just had end a friendship of over 12 years via e-mail

[Melodybe]

He started to demean Chavez and Bill Maher saying that they have "agendas" and that I was a fool for paying attention to them. He said that it made me lose credibility when I praised them and made him respect me less.

We used to talk about art, literature, and classism. It good to finally know for sure that he is not worth saving.


*******
It was all so sudden, he dissed Maher and Chavez and for the first time in 12 years I don't ever want to talk to him again.

So after 12 years of a great debate style friendship, I had to tell him to fuck off. It's such a let down, I thought he had the potential to be a cool guy. Well, I was wrong.


Here is what I just sent him, it's tough but I don't care, he deserves it:
******************************************************************************************
If you can't see the moral problems involved with continuing to support a spoiled, disgusting, murdering, racist, war profiteering, greedy, and all around cruel person like George Bush, we can't be friends anymore.

I also think that maybe you should look into your own heart and examine why it is that you continue to identify with a monster like him.

Agendas, are kidding me? We have had nothing but Bushco's corporatist, fascist agenda draped in the America flag: robbing us of every single progressive step America has made in the last one hundred years, robbing us of our great middle class, robbing us of our treasury, robbing us of our future on a healthy planet, robbing of our Bill of Rights, robbing us of our very Constitution.

There is no defending that Cam, it is perverse to even try.

HE FUCKING WENT TO FUNDRAISERS, PLAYED GUITAR, AND ATE CAKE WITH JOHN MCCAIN, WHILE OUR FELLOW CITIZENS DROWNED IN WATER FILLED WITH SHIT, POISON, AND DEATH!!!

He had his Nero moment, he got to be Marie Antoinette, and now it is time to throw him and his entire corrupt government in jail.

Respect? Fuck off! You have no respect for your fellow man, you have no respect for the truth, you have no respect for decency, you have no respect for democracy.


Don't talk me again, I give up on you.

[castiron]

1. Wow.

You really will be better off, probably. Sometimes you gotta trust these flashes of anger and really go with them. I dumped a more casual acquaintance last year abruptly because he told me I should read the Bible instead of The Economist. Just, pshhhst! Not talking to you anymore. Yes, it was cruel: yes it was necessary.

[Spider Jerusalem]

2. Doesn't sound like much of a friendship anyway.

And if you're still thinking "he has the potential to be a cool guy" after TWELVE YEARS, you've apprently spent a lot of that time deluding yourself about the nature of your relationship. That should be far more than enough time to tell whether or not he IS, in fact, "a cool guy". That is, if you aren't overreacting. After all, 12 years...must be SOMETHING there. Unless of course you're still young and the friendship goes back to childhood, in which case it would seem that force of habit was the only thing keeping this so-called "friendship" going.

[StellaBlue]

28. I agree re: 'potential'

Sounds a lot like the relationship I just got out of.

After knowing the person for over 10 years, I should've realized....

:eyes:

[Falalalalala]

45. cool guy?

What does "cool" referring to a person mean?

[fooj]

3. Sorry about that, honey. This is what I would do...

Send him a copy of the PNAC website link...tell him that because you have valued him as a human being and a friend for 12 years...

you need clarification on one important thing. After thoroughly reading through the PNAC information...

How can any individual support "imposters" who have hijacked a political party for personal and corporate gain? Is it possible to maintain any sense of ethical fortitude when supporting an administration that is morally and ethically bankrupt?

Then...I'd slip him a copy of A.L.Doctorow's- The Unfeeling President. Here's the audio http://evilqueen.demesnes.net/mp3/e_l_doctorow.mp3

Here's the kicker...
I'd sign it---I wish you peace.


Always works for me.

:hug:

[Melodybe]

4. Whoa, I just asked my tarot deck, what will he feel like when he gets my

e-mail?

And I pulled this card:

http://www.learntarot.com/s9.htm

That is cold. Makes me feel bad, he is kinda weak, and he just got over a semi-critical illness about 2 years ago.

Now I feel like the worst person alive.

[Melodybe]

5. On a scale from one to ten, how mean is my email?

[preciousdove]

7. Angry words but not mean ones.

You said nothing about his parentage, his sexual orientation, his religion or physical appearance. I didn't see anyting mean in the email at all. Harsh truth, but nothing mean.

[Missy M]

9. Your email is not mean, it is about your feelings.....

and the recipient didn't exactly have kind words for you.

[Mairead]

15. One to ten? One. Your mail expressed your sadness and anger

but it wasn't "mean" -- you didn't attack him for things he can't help. You attacked him for his ugly, destructive choices; that's not mean, that's healthy!

[abluelady]

18. It Was Perfect.

May I borrow it? I feel that I am going to need it as the days continue?

[frictionlessO]

35. Your email was passionate and even though there was a timid finality

in it... it still felt like you left him wiggle room if he ever changes his mind.

The fact that he had an illness two years ago is sad... like anyone else who ever had one. It shouldn't play into it he is the one who deosn't really want you as a friend, handing you insults and what not.

I think the only reason you feel bad is that you are a good compassionate and empathetic individual, it probably breaks your heart losing someone to the kool aid. I feel for you and would ask that you let this moment work for you, let it kindle the fire inside that is driving you to fight the bushists ever more. Its is partially for friends like that that you fight... so they may one day see themsleves clear of imperialistic attitude and greed.

In the meantime you have a couple hundred friends here who support you very much indeed.

:hug: :grouphug:

[Finder]

41. Reactionary, not mean.

If he has known you for as long as you say, I am sure he expected the response.

BTW--Do you really believe in Tarot?

[Melodybe]

61. Don't know, I've found that it is oddly accurate

[I Have A Dream]

52. He is the person who insulted you and implied that he saw you as...

"less than" because of things that are extremely important to you as a person. You didn't start this situation -- he did. He is an adult, and unless he apologizes, I think that you have every right to say that this is not something that's good for you to be around.

However, if he apologizes and says that he values your friendship and doesn't want to lose it, maybe the two of you can work something out so that you can at least be friendly towards each other when you see each other.

I have several friends who are very conservative. One of them recently said that she wonders if this New Orleans "thing" is equivalent to what happened in Sodom & Gomorrah. I immediately stopped her and told her that MY God doesn't do things like this. She just said "I wonder..." and dropped it. If she had pushed it, I think that it might have been the end of our friendship.

Personally, I don't think that you owe him "pity" friendship. His friendship no longer feeds your soul.

[bananas]

11. Try the I Ching instead

It always gives practical advice about the "better man" would do.

[calimary]

26. PLEASE don't.

He may be an unsaveable soul.

Sigh...

You did what you had to do. If this individual is still standing by bush after WHAT WE HAVE ALL SEEN, especially since late August (hell, earlier than that, even - with the cavalier attitude in which bush repeatedly pissed on Cindy Sheehan), there is a STRONG possibility that this person is unreachable. There is some blindness that cannot be cured.

Perhaps, instead of wasting your time trying to present arguments to someone like this, you might be better off sending him one of those brief "Farewell. I wish you peace" messages and just be done with it.

This person MAY some day come around, and perhaps will try to reach out to you, in which case I'd welcome him/her back with wide open arms. But you have tried to teach, enlighten, and share the truth and it's been roundly rejected.

There are MANY others to whom you can reach out, and whom you CAN reach, and whose souls you CAN save. I'd say more now than ever. I've read testimonials just here on DU of people who say their neighbors or coworkers or bosses or relatives or whoevers have finally come in from the cold. Why? Because they've seen enough. And the veil has been lifted from their eyes. Those who can see WILL see. And those who are grown up enough to realize they've been had, and manipulated, and lied to, will also be adults enough to defy any temptation to remain in denial. There ARE people for whom saving face isn't as important as recognizing and appreciating TRUTH.

There's a Scripture passage about it - (paraphrasing) - "he who has ears to hear - let him hear." Not sure from which Gospel it comes.

[The Doctor.]

44. That card seems to apply more to you than to him...

I might take the advice of sending some concrete evidence upon which you have based your opinions.

Starting with the PNAC and explaining that this administration has only had the goal of world domination at any cost would be good. You could show quite clearly that this administration has been planning this from as early as '97 and that they will never tell the truth.

I would certainly try a conciliatory tone with him so that he perceives these things as genuine concerns and not shouting points. (which is how I perceive the letter you posted)

Tell him that if he can explain away all of these facts, you may start to understand his position. That way, he will believe that he can influence you to see things his way. As such, he will likely examine your thoughtfully compiled evidence in order to compose his explanations.
One of three things will happen;

a) He will begin to realize that there is no way to refute the way so many amazing coincidences line right up with both your evidence and events taking place and he will begin to see the light.

b) He will unconsciously realize the truth and experience the cognitive dissonance most people feel when they internalize a truth they cannot reconcile with their world view.

c) He will show you the light and you will have no questions about his explanations because they are perfect. (:+)

Either way, if you string him along thinking he can 'help' you, you will have a greater opportunity to inform him. I have had some success with this approach, unfortunately most people are ignorant and afraid and will therefore not allow such information to register in their consciousness.

One thing I recommend is something I've been doing all over town...

I have people 'google' "building 7 video" and then tell them that they'll either pretend they didn't see it or their world will change.

So send him this:

"Hey... I found something really freaky. I'm hoping you can explain it. Click here; http://www.wtc7.net/videos.html
Could you explain this to me?"

First field his immediate questions, then think of his possible explanations. There are none I have found that you cannot easily shoot down. (Demolitions crews take DAYS to set those charges)

If he tells you the building came down due to fire - he is lost.

Good luck spreading the knowledge, we're all doing the best we can with very ignorant people.

Patience will win you the day.

[Tsiyu]

57. Stop it!

Did you stop to think that perhaps HE is the one in anguish? And that he is MEANT to be there?

Eventually, more and more KoolAid drinkers are gonna hit rock bottom. Then they will step away from the cup and begin to take a long, hard look at things. It will be painful.

Every addict goes there on the way to recovery.

You did the right thing. No matter how much you might pity this person, I am sure you pity the multitude who have just been abused because of the people this person supports.

Think about the fact thet you are defending them, not that you are attacking him.


Charge: $.02

[Melodybe]

62. I'm not the one in anguish, I feel mildly bad about his illness

but if he wants to be an ignorant jerk that is his problem.

[haele]

66. Sometimes, the slap in the face and the tears it brings are...

...what's necessary to bring a reality check to someone. Especially, if they're participating in a nightmare. He has to understand what it is that what might be a self-indulgent time for him and his pride is not at all a good thing.

I've pulled that card in my personal readings many a time. Also the one after, the ten of swords-which has even more catastrophic connotations.
This card seems to resonate with the meaning behind most people's prayers - most people pray that something not happen, or to avoid disaster. This card suggests to me that one must wake up and realize that they are avoiding a situation, hiding behind self-delusion and false prayers that cannot be realized - and the sword of Damocles is still there, waiting to drop on them and ruin their plans.

He'll survive. He won't be happy about it, especially when he has to face truths about his actions/beliefs and all the ugly details.

And yes, it's a cold lesson - but he has to learn, accept, and move on or he will remain in his own little personal hell of anticipation, let-down, and denials.

Haele

[Melodybe]

69. That's what I thought, too. Thanks

[sam sarrha]

6. i dont have any friends left... at 56. my brother just figured out Bu$h ..

but is still in denial he was so stupid for so long..

it takes a while, but it gets better, they might even come around when they get drafted.. you never know.

[Jim Sagle]

40. And at 56, he COULD get drafted.

x(

[I Have A Dream]

53. Well, you have lots of friends here, Sam. We may not be real-life...

friends, but we are always here for you.

:hug:

[artemisia1]

8. This is what I sent my Freeper parents. Now they won't discuss politics

with me and are very cold. You know what? I don't particularly care at this point. Katrina was a separation point; we found out who stood where - humanity or political party. Still, I wouldn't have attacked your friend personally in the way you did. Try sending an e-mail apologizing for the attacks and explain how the Katrina response has all of us on emotional edge; however, you still believe as you do regarding the admin. and believe that a person who approached the subject objectively would have to come to the same conclusions.

My e-mail:


"This is bullshit. Failures of local and state governments in the evacuation are immaterial to the Federal Goverments response. They are separate issues. No thinking person could characterize FEMA's response as anything but a FAILURE. The head of FEMA didn't even fucking know that thousands of people were at the Convention Center and that hundreds were dying of dehydration. 4-6 FEDERAL C-130's could have dropped sufficient supplies upon the Superdome and Convention Center to have prevented hundreds of deaths. Five days after the hurricane, three days after the breach of the levees, and 9 UNFORGIVEABLE DAYS after the storm was forecasted to hit New Orleans, NORTHCOM still did not have sufficient orders to respond. They had SUFFICIENT RESOURCES to have gotten THOUSANDS TO SAFETY BEFORE THEY PERISHED. They did not receive those orders until Friday afternoon when our President realized the he was in deep shit politically.

Now, there is no doubt in my mind that the local governments failed deeply, but I cannot do anything about their failure. The federal failure is a NATIONAL DISGRACE. Mississippi and Alabama likewise had insufficient, and often nonexistent FEMA help. The idea of FEMA is that LOCAL GOVERNMENTS WILL BE OVERWHELMED AND UNABLE TO HANDLE MASSIVE CATASTROPHES.

No amount of Republican talking points will sway me, and I pray to God in heaven, the majority of Americans, from holding this Administration responsible for the greatest failure of leadership in this century. Those, such as Hannity and O'Reilly and Limbaugh who are defending these FUCKING ASSHOLES, are cultists who put party loyalty before their country and wouldn't kow something if it hit them right between the eyes."

[Demit]

13. The friend called her a "fool" and she should apologize?

He said she lost credibility with him, and he had less respect for her, and she should be the one to apologize for attacking him? I think not.

Melody, if he apologizes for what he said you can apologize for how you reacted to it. If he initiates the dialog I bet you would be grateful for the chance to talk it out. Wait to see if he responds to your email. If he doesn't respond at all then that wasn't a friendship that could stand hard times. Not all friendships can.

[Melodybe]

19. No he was being a condescending prick

I'm done with him, end of friendship.

[emanymton]

16. Focus Your Anger! We The People Have Been Btrayed

We The People have the right to be angry. Those in position of power have used their positions to better themselves by cheating us. Direct your anger at those who are doing the terrible deeds.

Never forget, "Hannity and O'Reilly and Limbaugh who are defending these FUCKING ASSHOLES, are" being paid to do so! These are judas goats



Bush Lied. People Died. Media Cheered.

[The Doctor.]

47. I have parents that will not listen either.

They were Clinton haters, and had some reasons for it.

But now that we have an administration far more incompetent than any this country has seen, they refuse to acknowledge it.

The type of people we are all dealing with are those that haven't the imagination to 'put the shoe on the other foot'.

They are not capable of imagining how they would feel if a Democratic administration were doing these things.

I've put many on the spot by mentioning how the Democrats rigged the voting machines because the manufacturers were major Democratic Party contributors and even announced publicly that they were going to help deliver the vote to the Democrats. Then I mention that a Democratic congressman said, "It's over, we've won. It's all over but the counting, and we'll take care of the counting." a year before the elections.

So they get mad and say, "how can we let them get away with that?!"

I say, "So you're saying that all sounds suspicious?"

"Suspicious? It's downright treasonous!"

"Well, I agree... except that I lied. It's the REPUBLICANS who own the machines and boasted about the fix being in... So I suppose it's ok if the Republicans do it. Right?"

-Watch the immediate backtracking.

Hypocrites can't put the shoe on the other foot.

[TomClash]

10. Jesus and Gandhi had agendas too

Would you "lose credibility by praising them?" Would he respect you less?

Ad hominum attacks are what people use when they can't combat the arguments presented.

This man is intellectually weak.

[Melodybe]

12. Thanks, I already knew that, I made slightly higher grades in high school

not much only 4 or 5 points, usually, but damn it drove him nuts.

AWE, I'm back to feeling ok about this e-mail.

If he has any soul he'll renounce Bushco and become a human, even if we aren't friends any more.


I have too many people to keep with who are more deserving of my time.

Spoiled rich frat boys do not fall into that category.

I'm done.

[acmejack]

14. You always have a lot of friends here!

We love ya, Melodybe!

[calimary]

27. I second that.

There are MANY others out there who will benefit from your wisdom, your perspective, and your passion for truth and justice.

[OneGrassRoot]

17. Sadly, I think we're all experiencing these "losses".....

though I do wonder if it's a loss if they are this much asleep and/or in denial.

If you ever have to use this phrase again, I would add:

"HE FUCKING WENT TO FUNDRAISERS, PLAYED GUITAR, AND ATE CAKE WITH JOHN MCCAIN, WHILE OUR FELLOW CITIZENS DROWNED IN WATER FILLED WITH SHIT, POISON, AND DEATH!!!"


And Halliburton got their contract BEFORE our fellow citizens got FOOD AND WATER!!!!

[Melodybe]

20. Will do, he's one of the 25%, I guess since he knows the Bush Family

personally, it makes sense.

[CountAllVotes]

23. some people are just so self-centered they don't even notice

I lost one too recently ... a person I've known for over 35 years for God's sake. Oh well - better late than never I guess!

Still the same, it hurts nonetheless. :(

:kick:

[Tsiyu]

21. Excellent sendoff, melodybe

You have a wonderful way with words

We have had nothing but Bushco's corporatist, fascist agenda draped in the America flag

:thumbsup:

[cry baby]

22. Right off - the agenda thing gets me...

Everyone has agendas. He is a fool to fall for the wrong agenda. I am sorry you are sad to lose a friend. It's his loss, to be sure!

:hug:

[mitchtv]

24. Sorry, you Had to do that

I feel that way about my older brother, and two of my sisters. I just "replied all" to some piece of shit my sister sent around and called it "jingoistic false patriotism" instead of just deleting it. I felt bad immediately.

[nicknameless]

65. Aargh! Why is it that the NICE people are always the ones who end up

feeling bad?!

[tularetom]

25. You handled it way better than me

I wish I could have been as incisive as your e-mail was. I've lost several friends over this and each friendship was terminated as a result of me saying something along the lines of "you're an asswipe Go fuck yourself"

But I miss them. Now I don't have anyones nose to rub in it every time bushco fucks up. Guess I need to learn some basic tact so I can get my point across in such a way that they don't realize until later how I stuck the knife in.

[calimary]

29. Welcome to DU!

You can always practice here.

Glad you're with us!

CHANNEL those feelings and put them to work for you! Let them help you help us...

Visualize IMPEACHMENT!!!!!!!!!
And then go DO something about it.

[pbartch]

30. GREAT response. I wish I could write like that!

I have a stoopid repuke friend send me an email today saying Bush is RIGHT.....we (the whole USA) is wrong.

[HereSince1628]

31. Wasn't a subject line just like this seen back in mid August?

Just wondering. It could be my Alzhiemer's

[Eurobabe]

32. I ended a weird/wary friendship with a Repube

in 2003, a spoiled little bee-yatch that was caught up with the in-crowd in DC. Although she voted for Gore (or so she said) she bragged one time too many that she was a Bu$h Ranger in 2003/4. It dawned on me that she was just clueless.

I wrote her off and never looked back. Self-absorbed woman that she was...And to be honest with you, when her note came in the mail "Wondering where we went? We've moved!" I shook my head and said, "NOT REALLY." Tore the card up and threw it in the trash.

Life is too short to be friends with people that are terminally stupid.

[BamaBecky]

33. I have parted ways with several people over this administration!

I just answered an e-mail.......I let them have it too...

I do not suffer fools gladly.......

Bama

[TheStates]

34. That's too bad.

He probably never would have turned around though.

[Az]

36. Not worth saving?

Odd words to me. Everyone it would seem to me is worth saving. It's the nature of our shared humanity. The question is of course how much effort needs to be expended and what the chances are of actually saving them. A person is always worth saving. Its just not always possible.

[pitohui]

37. you prob. did the right thing

your "friend" sound like he is trying to bully you by withdrawing a "respect" he likely never felt in the first place

[yurbud]

38. Chavez is a good litmus not only for cons but DLC Dems

A guy is democratically elected, and he wants to use his country's oil wealth to help his people and the people in the region,the Bushies try to overthrow him, and HE is called destabilizing.

If an elected official knocks Chavez, they are not just business friendly, they are business's bitch.

[StellaBlue]

42. GREAT POINT.

You should posit this as a separate thread. I'll nominate it!

How's that for back-room, cronyistic collusion?

wink wink

Seriously, that is an excellent point.

[yurbud]

51. good point--let's see what happens (I have my doubts)

[CrispyQ]

39. Life is too short to waste your time on people

who aggravate or demean you or are simply walking such a completely different path there is no common meeting point. You are better off not wasting your time & energy on the likes of them.

I have lost 2 friends the past 18 months over our "I'm a uniter, not a divider" (p)Resident. I have better ways to spend my time than with people whose world view is so contrary to mine.

:hug:

[ismnotwasm]

43. I have a friendship that is very cold now

I really liked and respected this guy. We hadn't discussed politics in particular. But I with sitting at coffee with some "nonpolitical friends" One or two asked me about certain things, Like "buyblue" and expressed interest. This person wasn't in the conversation at this time. I warned them, "Don't get me started". Well they got me started. At this time, Those assholes were down in Crawford chanting "we don't care" Ugh. Still makes me sick. So this guy pops up and says "Well how do you know the liberals didn't set that up to make the conservatives look bad? It could have been the liberals" I just looked at him and said "I WISH liberals were that dirty and underhanded. I WISH liberals fought like those assholes conservatives do--without a fucking conscience. We wouldn't be in this position-- blah blah" I can't remember everything. Haven't talked to him since, though I see him around.

[terip64]

46. I had to do the same thing, a couple of times..

You are better off and so am I.

[Joe Chi Minh]

48. "If you can't see the moral problems

involved with continuing to support a spoiled, disgusting, murdering, racist, war profiteering, greedy, and all around cruel person like George Bush, we can't be friends anymore".

Absolutely right, Melodybe. To think otherwise is to be hopelessly muddled about the paramount priority for all human beings: the spiritual dimension of the nature of all of us, as expressed in our actions towards others in whatever straightened circumstances they may be in. If your friend has such a blind, selfish heart what greater and more incorrigible stupidity can there be?

By means of our governments, we should be able to render mutual assistance to each other, pooling our resources; instead of which the public purse is routinely bled dry by corporate tyranny.

The corporatism promoted by both our governments (USA and UK), at the ever-growing expense of the people, is nothing less than psychopathic; and incidentally, could not have been further from the moral world-view and thinking of Adam Smith, the guru they claim to be informed by.

[moez]

49. Bah!

Old friends, family - who needs 'em.... if they're not in lock step with my opinions.... fuck 'em all!

Mom cared for me, supported me, cleaned my shitty diapers.... but she has a different perspective on life than I do - what a fuckin' bitch.

My buddy for the last 12 years - he shared his opinions, hopes and dreams, stood by me when I was down..... he voted for an asshole - he's dead to me.

wow....

[blue neen]

56. The OP says they had "a great debate style of friendship,"

so obviously he was not in lockstep with her opinions.

Life in this country is getting uglier by the day because of the Bush Administration's evil agenda. You have to choose your battles now just to stay focused on freaking SURVIVING.

IMHO, that's what she is doing.

[Tsiyu]

58. When I see the deaths caused by their support of a murderer

in Iraq and New Orleans, I do, indeed, find them guilty as accomplices and best separated from.

Do you hang out with thieves and murderers and slackers who steal everything in sight? I don't.

And I sure as hell won't hang around people who would advocate putting the above types into public service.

[Melodybe]

60. Ok, you are confused, we were never that tight

[Joe Chi Minh]

73. Evidently, they are the kind of relatives and friends

you deserve then. May you find much pleasure in their company. I can't imagine you'd find it elsewhere.

You'd compare changing diapers with condoning a war of conquest, killing 30,000 men, women and children with their first military onslaught, would you! Well,......! The words I have for you wouldn't be allowed on this or any non-freeper board.

[moez]

74. I compare the love of those closest to me

With a disagreement (of any size). However deeply I may disagree with my parents and closest friends, I would never cast them away as trash because our views differ.

I will argue with them with every breath I have. But, I would NEVER consider publicly disparaging them or do anything to critically harm the relationship.

I feel sorry for you indeed if your relationships are so superficial that you cannot tolerate dissent from your opinions. You must be a very sad and shallow person....

[Joe Chi Minh]

76. Actually, I aspire to be a Christian.

Evidently, with just such people as you in mind - and this is absolutely central to the Christian faith - when Christ was told that his mother and his relatives wanted to speak to him, he asked, "'Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?' And he stretched forth his hand to his disciples and said, 'Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever does the will of my Father, is my brother, and sister, and mother'".

The right-wing naturally (in every sense of the word) gives precedence to the natural virtues over the supernatural virtues, in the teeth of Christ's repeated strictures on the matter. On the occasions when the matter arose, he asked such worldlings what claim they had to be better than the robbers. "Even the robbers do as much". (How apt in the neocon context!)

In a more general way, he warned, "A man will reap what he sows; if nature is his seed-ground, nature will give him a perishable harvest; if his seed-ground is the spirit, it will give him a harvest of eternal life".

All things being equal, of course, the natural virtue of loving your family is a necessary foundation upon which supernatural love which is all-encompassing and evenly directed, must be built.

So, you would do well to save your pity for your own soul. I trust you come to understand your need of it, before you meet your Maker.

[Joe Chi Minh]

78. I imagine you are a fundie,

so, here is an actual Christian prayer you should find helpful:

"Father, Creator of all that is good,
you have called men to work in your world,
and by their co-operation to better the condition of mankind.
Grant that we may always work together as children of your family,
and love all men as our brethren.
Through Christ our Lord.
Amen".

Incidentally, you need to learn to distinguish between "opinions" and assertions of unambiguous revealed truths of the Christian faith.

[tx_dem41]

80. Why do you imagine that he/she is a fundie?

Less the harsh tone, I agreed with everything they said. And, FWIW, I'm an Atheist.

[Joe Chi Minh]

83. Whatever your beliefs,

that's why I came back onto this board now. To delete it. I don't regret the harshness in itself, but I don't believe a political forum is appropriate for that kind of denunciation.

Not that it was well conceived in the first place, since, as you point out, I leapt to a conclusion that wasn't even germane to the issue, which was fully covered in my penultimate post. My apologies all round.

Too late to delete, it seems, though I'll ask a moderator if it would be possible..

[moez]

84. Well...

No, I'm a Christian, but definitely not a fundie.... Perhaps that's why my relationships with living, breathing humans means even more to me than it would if I were a fundie... Please don't take that to mean that I am disparaging you for your strongly held beliefs.

I mean to say that, to me, my relationships run to the core of who I am and how I define myself. I cannot ever see a time where I would boil these relationships to a few sentences and post it on the internet in a negative fashion in order to hold them up for public ridicule.

I see this type of thing all of the time around here: "my stupid repug mom...."; "my husband is a right wing jerk.."; you name it. I should probably just hold my tongue - but, it really just strikes me as unbelievable how disposable relationships have become.

Anyway, thank you for your clarification - here was mine. I'm sure that we won't agree on this 100%, but that's what makes up a discussion board, I guess....

[Joe Chi Minh]

85. No we don't agree, but we know where we stand

in terms of priorities. And that's no small thing.

Thank you for the tone of your reply, I should add.

[Fire Walk With Me]

50. When it comes down to the real bottom line, friends and family disappoint.

We're heading into a bottom line time, so look for more polarization as the problems foisted upon us mount.

[texpatriot2004]

54. I think you are right. I think that people need to wake-up. There

is no defending * or this administration. I like what you said, "to do so is perverse." Actually, I liked alot of what you said. It's sad that people refuse to see it. I think it's repulsive for people to defend him...I cannot respect anyone who does. Their values are not my values. Good luck.

[IndyJones]

55. Sorry to hear you lost a good friend of 12 years! Wow, bummer!

Politics and religion can really bring on some nasty discussions.

[kitkat65]

59. I'm not surprised if you feel a sense of mourning but look at it this

way. When you surround yourself with people who suck the life out of everything around them, you can be sure they're sucking it out of you as well.

Good riddance to this friend and good for you for sticking with your principles enough to clearly state why he is intolerably full of shit.

[blue neen]

63. Wow. What you said is so true.

"When you surround yourself with people who suck the life out of everything around them, you can be sure they're sucking it out of you as well."

I will have to remember that now when I'm feeling bad about avoiding any friends who are still supporting Bush. We do have a choice about such things, and my choice is to stay away from them.

[nicknameless]

64. You took a beautiful stand for decency, for truth and for self-respect.

No "friendship" can be worth the abandonment of these. Brava!!!

:applause: :bounce: :toast: :yourock: :applause:

[LoZoccolo]

67. This is ridiculous behavior and I'm doing you a favor in telling you that.

All those people who read this and didn't tell you that gave up on you just like you gave up on this guy...and so will I probably after I see the response to this. But oh well.

[TankLV]

68. Good for you.

My one repuke friend at work has volunteered to me lately that he is disgusted with bunkerboy and thinks he should be in prison for what they have(haven't) done.

I just sit and smile - I didn't try to argue with anyone - we all just don't bring up politics.

[tamtam]

70. I really hate to hear stories like this

I'm not saying what you did was wrong. By all means we all have standards and morals and I think being against this administration is moral. IMO, standing up to this administration is a matter of life and death but I hate to see anyone lose one more thing to Bushco, especially relationships.

I hope that you can savage your friendship if that is what you want. Maybe this will open up your friends eyes. I know I've learned something from your story and that is people are in deep denial. I've always thought Bush supporters were just stubborn and actually believed what they were supporting. The more I hear stories like this I have come to understand that supporting Bush is some kind of game for these people. They don't care how many people die all they know is that they have won. I'm sorry you had to lose a friend to this mess.

[Melodybe]

72. I don't want to be friends with people that respect Bush

Bush and the USA are responsible for genocide, I'm not cool with anyone that could support those endeavors.

[kineneb]

71. good philosophy from a country western song

thanks to Kenny Rodgers...from The Gambler:

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.

That chorus has more good advice than many weighty tomes. Sounds like it was time to walk away.

[Balbus]

75. Sounds like you were never really friends to begin with...

...for it to end over something like this. Probably no great loss to either of you.

[Melodybe]

77. That's not true in high school and college we spent plenty of time

talking about art and music.

We actually had a lot in common until W.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

79. I can understand your feelings. One of the biggest parts of friendships

is respect which includes same moral values. I know I cannot respect anyone who supports this criminal regime. I've been blessed that the people that I love most in this world can see these thugs for who they are.

[Seabiscuit]

81. Martin Sheen: "Constructive anger is a good thing"

I shed a few "friendships" way back in February, 2003 as a result of the buildup to the Iraq war. The process made me angry, but I have absolutely no regrets, except that I wasn't quite as informed then as I am now.

My wife has a handful of relatives I'd love to send a version of your e-mail too. But because we're forced to see them several times a year during family get-togethers, I just bite the bullet and walk away as soon as they begin spewing their ignorant hate speech, which they pick up verbatim from Rush Limbaugh. At least they know where I stand (although they thoroughly misconceive it) and they also know that if they opened their pie-holes like that in my house they'd be escorted off the property, so they only spew their venom on their own turf, resulting in our visting them less and less.

[tx_dem41]

82. As compared to "destructive" anger. n/t

[trekbiker]

86. I had a similar experience with a longtime friend..

he is basically a NeoCon but we've known each other and (were) good friends and drinking buddies for nearly 20 years. The debates were sometimes heated but definately started taking a turn for the worse after Bush stole the first election in 2000. then after the second election last November it all went into the toilet. I sincerely believed the country could not be stupid enough to re-elect Bush and had maintained that belief for some months.

Our last e-mail exchange (day after election):

ex-friend: aaahahahaaaa... told you so Loser!!!

me: adios Jack Ass..

ex-friend: what a loser, screw you!

me: go Fuck yourself. and while your at it you can stick YOUR president up your Ass.

we havent communicated since.. that's Bush, the "Uniter"