Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:21 PM
Original message |
What does a centrist think? |
|
Edited on Sun Sep-18-05 06:24 PM by BullGooseLoony
What does a centrist think when they see a Democrat voting with the Republicans on a radical, agenda-driven issue?
On the other hand, what does a centrist think when a Democrat says things that are "out of the mainstream,"- too "liberal"- in response to a radical, agenda-driven issue?
|
MrModerate
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:26 PM
Response to Original message |
1. I'm sort of centrist myself . . . |
|
Edited on Sun Sep-18-05 06:26 PM by MrModerate
Left of center, anyway, as it was defined when I was forming my political model of the universe in the 60s and 70s. Also I talk to true centrists/moderates all the time.
So clarify your question, if you will, and maybe I can respond.
|
TallahasseeGrannie
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message |
2. Would you give an example |
|
of a radical agenda-driven issue?
This sounds like a great discussion gearing up.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #2 |
3. Repealing the estate tax. nt |
Finder
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
5. I am pretty much a centrist/moderate, and disagree... |
|
that the estate tax issue should be a dividing factor.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
8. I'm pretty sure that the estate tax is an important issue. |
|
Edited on Sun Sep-18-05 06:44 PM by BullGooseLoony
The Republicans seem to think so, at least, and are even doing their best to find a "rich" victim of Katrina in order to justify repealing the estate tax.
|
TallahasseeGrannie
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
|
well, that doesn't seem that radical to me.
But I have been accused of being a centrist myself at times, altho not lately.
I respect anyone whom I see stepping out of their party box once in a while and voting their true conscience and not necessarily the party line. That really impresses me and I tend to take that person more seriously even when they ARE spouting the party line.
Make any sense to you?
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
10. Well, I invite you to have a look at our federal defecit, given |
|
the massive amount of money we're already spending on Iraq.
Almost half a trillion dollars.
And we're talking about giving tax breaks to the extremely rich.
I gotta say- as a MODERATE liberal- that that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, to me.
|
TallahasseeGrannie
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
|
I misread. I thought you meant in the other direction: supporting the estate tax.
I agree that repealing the estate tax is radical and just pretty disgusting. If you can get 1.5 mil w/out tax, well that's enough damned money for everybody.
Sorry I am a bit dim today.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
16. Don't worry, everybody gets that from me. |
|
Makes my punch a lot harder, though, doesn't it? :P
|
TallahasseeGrannie
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
marbuc
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
|
1.5 million is really not that much when it covers the land and equipment needed to run even the most modest family farm AND the personal assets of the deceased. My family will face this situation when my grandmother passes on.
We are not weathly by most standards, we will have to sell the farm that has been in our family for over a century when my grandmother passes on (we are hoping this won't happen for long time, but let's face it, she's 91, and not in the greatest of health). because we will not be able to pay the estate tax. Even though the farm is probably worth a million or so, none of that is liquid, it is all tied to the land and infrastructure.
I cannot understand why this is an "either, or" debate, or repealing or not repealing. If we increase the level at which the estate tax is triggered, say to $5 million, this would exempt the family farms from the tax, and prevent independent farmers from having to make this painful decision.
|
Finder
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
TallahasseeGrannie
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
|
out opinions on a topic about which I know nothing.
But it would make sense to me to exempt family-owned businesses that need the capital to just keep going.
Thanks for pointing this out. I was never particularly interested in this issue before but you've opened my eyes.
My inheritances have been meager but I was happy to get them.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
24. The previous poster's "farm" sounds like fucking garbage. |
|
Edited on Sun Sep-18-05 07:47 PM by BullGooseLoony
1.5 million dollar farm. Just can't pay the estate tax!
Oh. OK!! Derr.
|
marbuc
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
38. Derr, no, we do not have $500,000 plus lying around to pay the tax |
|
Again, the value is tied to the land and equipment, but it is a strictly "break even" operation. We make enough to pay the taxes on the land and overhead. If profitability was the driving factor, we would have sold it long ago. Instead we hold onto it to preserve our family's heritage.
I am so glad you able to break it down to dollars and cents, this is something I'd rather not do. If I had my druthers, I would never see a dime, but instead allow our family farm to stay in the family for generations to come. If you, a self described progressive, cannot see this, then we are in bigger trouble than I thought.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #38 |
39. They take, nearly, at least, HALF your money in taxes! |
|
Edited on Sun Sep-18-05 09:00 PM by BullGooseLoony
Why, that sounds almost unbelievable!
Again, you might just have to sell the farm and settle for a measley couple hundred thousand.
And she didn't use a trust or anything, for such a huge farm?
|
marbuc
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #42 |
45. Assuming you're correct, |
|
47% of a million dollars is 470 thousand dollars.
So, what are you going to do with the remaing half of a million dollars?
Again, assuming you're right.
I'm crying, though.
And your grandmother didn't have a lawyer or accountant finding a way to shelter this farm....
|
marbuc
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #45 |
46. Provided we are forced to sell it? |
|
You don't seem to understand, we don't farm money trees, if faced with the estate tax, we would have to SELL THE FARM TO PAY THE TAX. This is how it works. Yes, if we were FORCED TO SELL THE FARM we would have money left which would be divided up, or put to alternate use, but this IS NOT THE DESIRED OUTCOME. I would prefer to get nothing and keep the farm in the family. It's not a money thing, its about preserving our heritage.
I don't expect you to care, but I do expect you to understand why this is important.
|
DLnyc
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
|
If I recall correctly, the Dems tried all sorts of compromises with higher exclusions, clauses to protect farms and so on, but the Repubs insisted on a COMPLETE repeal. The issue of smaller estates and farms makes a nice tool for Repubs to divide the opposition. But it is BS. The Dems were happy to deal with those issues, but the Repubs insisted on repealing the tax for EVERYONE, even those worth hundreds of millions.
The idea of the estate tax, I think, was that you can make as much as you want during your life, but there should not be a hereditary class of extremely wealthy people who never have to work at all and whose chldren, grandchildren and so on keep getting richer and richer without ever being asked to contribute anything to society. Actually, the tax doesn't prevent handing over fortunes to children, it just decreases the amount.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #23 |
25. The estate tax has a monetary limit. |
|
It's up near a million dollars.
If people can't "handle" the nominal tax, well, shit!!
YOU'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO SELL THE FARM, WHEN YOU INHERIT THAT MILLION-DOLLAR-PLUS PIECE OF PROPERTY.
Shut the HELL up. You get NO fucking sympathy from me.
|
Finder
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
29. what if there are 5 or 6 children... |
|
who worked the "farm" for under 20g a year for a couple of decades? That is the reality and telling others to "shut the HELL up, you get NO fucking sympathy from me." is not exactly the tolerant, progressive, wanting to understand the issue stance I would expect from a so-called progressive.
|
wuushew
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
31. Would not the progressive viewpoint be to promote one's OWN merit |
|
free from conditional hereditary entitlement? Is that not why we insist on universal education, non-discrimination in society and level playing fields?
I fail to see why the hardship and struggle of agrarian life somehow exempts it from discussions of estate taxes. Since farming is after all a business why should the government promote small scale farming over any other field or occupation?
People need to eat, beyond that that I don't want the government promoting so called idyllic lifestyles. Many more people were once employed in farming, the advance of mechanization forced the surplus labor into other sectors. If family farms cannot survive the passage between generations why should I feel compelled to modify the nature of the system?
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #31 |
33. It does seem to be a bit on the bullshit side to feel that one is |
|
entitled to hundreds of thousands of dollars....no matter how much work has done to supposedly "earn" it, being underpaid the whole time, apparently.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
32. Let's see, 5 or 6 children- for one, only working for 20G a year? |
|
What the hell kind of grandmother is that?
And, in any case, is the 200G's they're going to get in any case just not enough for them- assuming, of course, she deemed all of them worthy in her will?
|
Finder
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #32 |
|
the lump sum you mention is only if the farm is sold. The problem is the business cannot continue but needs to be liquidated to pay the taxes.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
41. I'm sure something will get worked out. |
|
The problems of multi-millionaires.
Makes me weep.
|
DLnyc
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
36. Oh. I never heard of a 'limit' |
|
As someone else said, I think that it doesn't kick in until after the first 1.5 million or so. But I never heard anything about a 'limit'. The question before Congress, as I understand, is whether that kick-in level should be raised to infinity; in other words should there be no estate tax at all. You seem to be saying that that kick-in level should be decreased to zero. Or perhaps you're saying something else. It's hard to tell between all the venom. At any rate, even though I support and fight for radical change in society, I have no interest in competing for who has the most radical position. Also, the idea that you will effect radical change by simply steamrolling all opposing points of view is somewhat idealistic. Also, it smacks of fascism. If you actually want to change things, as opposed to just impress people with how radical you are, than it might be good to try to understand where people are coming from, in order to better be able to persuade them or, gasp, horror, come to a mutually acceptable compromise.
Pardon me if I misconstrued something you said. The tone is just a little harsh to me.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
37. Yeah, it's a lower limit. Not an upper limit. |
|
A lower limit up near a million dollars.
But, yeah, I'm a commie radical! I'm CRAZZZZAAAAAAY!!!
Ask anyone. That's my M.O. Crazy Commie BullGooseLoony.
The crazy commie who has no sympathy for those inheriting million-dollar-plus estates. Radical left.
Gimme a fucking break. You're goddamned right the tone is harsh. That anyone would go along with the idea that the estate tax- the million-dollar-plus estate tax- needs to be repealed is fucking RIDICULOUS.
So get a clue, and be a Democrat.
|
DLnyc
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #37 |
44. Okay, but actually I OPPOSE the repeal of the estate tax. |
|
So I guess I wasn't able to explain my point of view to you very well at all, if you still think I support the repeal. Let me try one last time:
I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE IN A STRONG ESTATE TAX.
Also, I think that the 1.5 million 'lower-limit' or kick-in level, is reasonable and perhaps a good idea in order to PREVENT THE REPUBLICANS FROM DIVIDING THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS who support the estate tax PROVIDED THERE IS A FAIRLY HIGH KICK-IN LEVEL.
Also, I will defend to the death your right to be a commie radical, or any other kind you may choose to be.
Also, I respectfully maintain my right to disagree with some of your opinions, if I can figure out what they are.
|
wuushew
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
27. Focus on Farms Masks Estate Tax Confusion |
|
-snip- Neil Harl, an Iowa State University economist whose tax advice has made him a household name among Midwest farmers, said he had searched far and wide but had never found a farm lost because of estate taxes. "It's a myth," he said.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0408-02.htm
|
mongo
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
9. Maybe that at some point |
|
Estate taxes do more to put wealth into fewer and fewer hands than anything.
When you have to sell the family business to a giant real-estate mega corp to pay the taxes, all you are doing is concentrating more wealth into fewer hands.
But hey, you don't have squat, so no one else should either. The local fat cat in your town is no different than the Hilton family, right?
Whooo - EAT THE RICH - YEAH!!!
(It is awfully hard to be a centrist on DU)
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
13. I don't think that's realistic. nt |
Jackpine Radical
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:30 PM
Response to Original message |
4. I was thinking maybe the word "What" in your subject line |
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
15. You mean, the assumption that they think anything at all? |
|
Many of them seem to be "led" than thought-driven.
|
TheStates
(147 posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message |
7. I want to hear what a centrist thinks about CAFTA..... |
|
And signing away all our trade agreements to NAFTA and CAFTA......And then on top of that, signing a bankruptcy bill for credit card companies.
Are these ideas you support?
|
mongo
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
11. Hell NO on all accounts |
|
and I believe in health care for all Americans. A single payer system.
If we want to repeal any taxes, lets start with Bush's income tax cuts.
|
TheStates
(147 posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
12. Thats what I thought. Those senators in support aren't centrists. nt |
Finder
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
22. No way...not even close. (nt) |
Lady President
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #7 |
30. Centrist here-- Against CAFTA and NAFTA |
|
However, my family is from Youngstown and Akron, so I was probably more aware of the damage to families when jobs go overseas.
In general, I think because of the Clinton influence most centrist were for NAFTA. After seeing the results, against CAFTA. Just my best guess, your mileage may vary.
I work for a large bank that issues credit cards-- I'm keeping my mouth shut on that one.
|
Oerdin
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 07:18 PM
Response to Original message |
|
Spending the time on with an honest anwser.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #21 |
26. Not even worth thinking about, apparently. |
|
Do you have the first clue as to what I'm even getting at?
|
mmonk
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:04 PM
Response to Original message |
28. Some centrists think compromise |
|
Edited on Sun Sep-18-05 08:05 PM by mmonk
to make the best decision. Sometimes, they are unaware of the extreme right's intentions and instead, think they are just conservatives. I used to be a centrist. Now I'm a radical or at least called one.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
35. I used to be a centrist/moderate, as well... |
|
Although I think I was always fairly liberal.
Now I think of myself as a strong to moderate liberal.
|
Guaranteed
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 08:27 PM
Response to Original message |
34. I think we've gotten a bit TOO focused, in this thread. |
|
Edited on Sun Sep-18-05 08:28 PM by BullGooseLoony
I was trying to root out what a centrist thinks watching Democrats reacting differently to the issues that the Repugs put forward...
One capitulating, and one being "crazy"....."out of the mainstream"
Still kind of wondering, there.
|
Finder
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Sun Sep-18-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #34 |
|
but I don't think you are crazy or out of the mainstream. I think it is a good debate and one that needs to occur. I see both sides--as a centrist.
|
DU
AdBot (1000+ posts) |
Fri Apr 26th 2024, 08:59 PM
Response to Original message |