FEMA ordering ALL recovered bodies be prayed over !!!!

[GarySeven]

Has this been reported on before? - an INCREDIBLE quote from the current Newsweek (buried, as it were):

... An issue raised by the Feds that Kenyon (Kenyon Worldwide Disaster Services )found distasteful: an instruction that chaplains bless recovered bodies. A company source said the Feds are insisting on this, and the first chaplains are supposed to go out this week. Asked if that was mixing church and state, a FEMA spokeswoman responded: "A prayer is not necessarily religious. Everybody prays."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9379239/site/newsweek/

The quote alone deserves a place on the front cover of something.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. no, in FEMA, everybody preys.

nothing to see here, just a misquote.


JUST TRY TO PRAY OVER MY DEAD BODY, AND I AM COMING AFTER YOU IN YOUR DREAMS!

[Robertwf]

5. Is This in the Job Description?

Whose decision was this? The bodies need to be treated with dignity and the families can decide what religious matters need to be attended to.
Doesn't FEMA have enough on it's hands without being concerned about our eternal rest.

[GarySeven]

14. This is slowing down the recovery effort!

Once authorities locate a corpse, it can't be removed until a special team of chaplains is dispatched from wherever they are to bless it.

How many teams of chaplains are fanned out across the disaster district? Do they have a command and dispatch center? Do they have to hitch rides with other rescue aircraft of vehicles, or do they have a fleet of their own?

[kestrel91316]

47. We have to demonstrate how godly we are, so god knows not to

send more Katrinas, I guess. Like god can't look into our minds and know our thoughts............

[psychopomp]

49. There is nothing in the article to support your claim

"Once authorities locate a corpse, it can't be removed until a special team of chaplains is dispatched from wherever they are to bless it." There is nothing in the article to support that statement. Yes, there are plenty of things slowing down the effort. If you have some link to back that claim then we can add that to the list.

[Fescue4u]

50. Well its not like they'll be deader if they wait 15 minutes

for a Chaplain to say a short prayer.

[dchill]

95. "slowing down the recovery effort..."

That's the main reason they're doing it. To slow down the ever-rising body count.

[FreedomAngel82]

112. Maybe that's their real plan

[kitkat65]

36. I think they're praying they don't ALL get fired.

[malaise]

99. hehehehhehe

my exact thought.

[applegrove]

2. I'm sure some people appreciate it. But I think it is always supposed

to be some real priest of minister who does it official.

I hope prayers are not slowing down rescuers. They still find people alive you know.

[gollygee]

3. I don't pray

Nor does my husband. Not everyone prays and prayers are definitely religious.

Just to correct FEMA.

[dhinojosa]

96. I don't pray, unless forced socially by family

at which time I just stare and sneer for bringing up prayer at the dinner table.

[MrModerate]

4. What maroons. Everybody prays?

My ass.

[Fridays Child]

6. So, if it's not religious, why do they need chaplains to do it?

Just asking, you know?

[goclark]

7. Ho Ho Ho! F E M A Has Got To Go !!!

That's it!
I'm out of here.

God bless...

[philosophie_en_rose]

8. in the words of Bad Religion:

for beauty and glory
for money, love and country
Everybody's doing it,
Don't do that to me
I don't know what stopped
Jesus Christ from turning
every hungry stone into bread
and i don't remember hearing
how Moses reacted
when the innocent first born sons
lay dead
Well I guess
God was a lot more demonstrative
back when he
flamboyantly parted the sea
now everybody's praying
Don't prey on me

[libodem]

9. last rites

for the rightwing, they will all go to heaven and vote republican, doncha know

[CountAllVotes]

10. send in Monsignor Patrick O'Shea!

on edit to add ... the DEFROCKED MONSIGNOR PATRICK O'SHEA! Where are you anyway you monster!? Show your face and pray.

:grr: :argh:

[katinmn]

13. ...

:rofl:

[gollygee]

11. I've decided I have mixed feelings about this

I personally don't pray but I don't know if I would care if someone prayed over my dh (does that mean physically over?) or if I would just think it was a waste of time. And I'm sure it would bring comfort to some families to know that their loved ones were prayed for.

The people I'd be worried about being offended would be those who believe in prayer but believe that Christian prayers are the wrong ones. Assuming these are Christian prayers, which is likely.

[GarySeven]

15. Are these chaplains unaffiliated, or are they teams of all faiths?

My GOD - can you imagine the horror of a Southern Baptist family learning that their loved one was prayed over by a Jew - or worse, good God, a Catholic? Methodists praying over Lutherans?

[RevCheesehead]

27. Chaplains are, by definition, multi-faith.

I'm sure there's a generic "prayer for the dead". Later, at a memorial service (or funeral), they can have their "own" prayers said.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. Multi-Faith? So they cover, say, the Tibetan Book of the Dead?

Or is this another one of those EVERYBODY believes in "God" type of situations?

[RevCheesehead]

45. Of course.

Just like funeral directors provide various kinds of services for the dead, chaplains are (or at least are supposed to be) trained in the essentials of the various religious faiths. Chaplains are found in most hospitals, and serve other institutions where it helps to have a person of faith present. Somewhere in my office, I have a book of prayers for most inter-faith traditions. (yes, it's a Chaplain's handbook - I got at a booksale.)

note: ecumenical usually means Christianity, Judeo-Christian is what it sounds like, Monotheistic covers the Big Three (Judaism, Islam, Christianity), and Inter-faith (or multi-faith) is used for services held for religious/faith purposes, without pointing to a particular religion.

[Warren DeMontague]

53. That's all well and good

but I guess I'm going to need to get a medical-style "If Dead: Don't Pray" bracelet.

[RevCheesehead]

54. If you're dead, why would you care?

[Warren DeMontague]

55. It's the principle of the thing

I don't want a Catholic Funeral, either, even though it doesn't really matter.

[RevCheesehead]

56. Well, if you're lucky

maybe your body will float off to the sea, and nobody would have to bother at all about you. :eyes:

I mean, really, why are you hostile about this? If you don't believe, then what actual harm is there in someone saying a prayer?

[Warren DeMontague]

57. I'm not hostile. But why should MY faith, or lack thereof, be any concern

of yours? You can't just leave me alone? Even when I'm dead?

:eyes: yourself. For some reason Christians, in particular, can't understand why unbelievers and the like don't appreciate these repeated attempts to deliver the "good news". To save our souls, or to save us from pernicious use of birth control or premarital sex, or whatever. You know, um, "I'm sure you mean well, and I appreciate the TOTALLY UNASKED FOR FAVOR, but if I had wanted it, I would have ASKED."

It's like the Mormons converting people, like Jews who died in the Concentration Camps, posthumously. Are you telling me you can't see why some people might find that sort of thing offensive? That the Jews should have just been grateful, and, you know, what does it hurt?

Really- not trying to sound hostile, again, but it is awfully damn presumptuous to make that call for someone ELSE without their permission. Does that make sense?

[RevCheesehead]

59. Well, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your tone.

But I was responding originally to a question about chaplaincy. It's closely related to my vocation, so I responded for clarity's sake. I don't think I ever stated whether or not I agreed with the actions of FEMA... and for the record, I do not.

What I'm not clear about is what your objection is.. Is it that inappropriate prayers might be offered, or is it that ANY prayers are offered?

Whatever - I just think that for the families who lost loved ones, many would be thankful that someone was there to offer a prayer when they couldn't be there themselves.

[gulfcoastliberal]

60. Especially since they probably won't get a funeral since FEMA/Kenyon will

likely dispose of the body without counting it, leaving the surviving family to think their loved one was washed away without a trace. They have a track record of doing this. I know, I went through Ivan, my GFs brother is a firefighter and he said they found many many more dead bodies than what got reported. They whitewash this after every hurricane. I read a post from someone who survived Charley in the Punta Gorda area and said the military locked down the trailer parks where there were mass casualties he saw with his own eyes. Were they included in the "official" death toll? No.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. Others have speculated that they want to keep the toll less than 9-11

You know, because 9-11 was THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO EVER HAPPEN IN THIS COUNTRY, particularly in terms of justifying all the shit they continually pull.

[gulfcoastliberal]

67. I think that's a valid hypothesis

Although in reality it's ludicrous to say Katrina didn't cause as many deaths as the 9/11 attacks. We have major destruction in New Orleans, Waveland, MS is nearly completely destroyed as is Bay St Louis, Kiln, Diamondhead, Pearlington, Pass Christian, Long Beach, Gulfport, Biloxi, Ocean Springs, Pascagoula, and many other communities such as Slidell, LA and others I can't think of right now. Yet somehow the dead will be less than the 9/11 body count?! Way more people lost their lives in this storm than the "authorities" will ever admit to. My grandmother lost her modest house 1 block from the beach in Waveland. Absolutely nothing left - my mom went back the other day and said the destruction is complete. The house was 20 ft above sea level plus pilings that added another 3 feet - but what can that do against a 30 ft storm surge with 15-20ft waves on top of that? Every house on her street is utterly destroyed. I'm not asking for sympathy; my mom evacuated her the Saturday before the storm. It's just very hard on her because she is hospitalized with congestive heart failure and I think she is losing the will to live after losing everything. She rode out Camille in Waveland and the structure is rode it out in on Coleman Ave is gone from Katrina. My heart goes out to all with missing or deceased loved ones. This is Americas shameful tragedy. And fuck you, Haley Barbour. Just wanted to get that off my chest. Thanks for listening.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. It's a tough call.

I do see your point, don't get me wrong.

I guess it's just the point blank assumption that everyone subscribes to the Judeo-Christian notion of "God" that I find a little bothersome.

It's kind of like the pledge. People will go through all kinds of contortions to justify coercing kids to say "Under God". No one who supports that seems to want to answer, though, just how they would feel if it was "Under Buddha", or "Under Eris", or "Under Zeus"...

How about "Under Goddess"?

I guess I wonder just what kinds of "prayers" they are saying over these poor folks. Would most Christians object to people saying a prayer to "Goddess" over their bodies? I mean, "Goddess" should at least be as much of a generic, all-purpose term as "God". Is the assumption that the divine is male more inclusive than the assumption that it is female? Would people have a problem with that, do you think?

Really, I'm just wondering aloud, here.

And more importantly, I would prefer it if they would count the bodies and try to get them to the right place. That should be the #1 priority.

[RevCheesehead]

63. Well, I agree with you.

The problem is, they get whatever chaplains show up. And considering their locale, I'd bet that a fair number are Baptists, by background. Not really known for their cultural sensitivity, are they?

As far as inclusiveness goes, I wholeheartedly agree. The chaplaincy programs I am familiar with are very, very good at making this point: that there are many forms of faith, and there is no "one" way. (I think the Air Force academy had problems with its chaplains, because they were getting awfully fundy. At least someone had the balls to call them on it.)

And I completely agree; recovery of bodies should be a priority. On the other hand, some of these people may be Catholic, and wanting/needing last rites as soon as possible. I'm picturing Father Mulcahey here, genuflecting at a triage full of dying patients, saying, "You know what they need. Amen."

[wickerwoman]

66. Here's the thing...

It's not just that I don't believe in God, it's that I can't stand religion. I can't stand priests. I don't want a "man of God" doing anything with my dead body. I don't want anybody's sympathy or good wishes or phallocentric crap in the afterlife.

You're welcome to believe anything you like. Just keep it away from my corpse all right?

I don't particularly want necrophiliacs going after my dead body either. You could use the same argument (you're dead, what does it matter?) but it doesn't make it any less repugnant.

Prayers work in most religions even if you're not actually standing over the body, right? They hold memorials for sailors lost at sea and astronauts and so forth. So if families want to pray for their loved ones nothing is stopping them. And the potential for offense is removed.

[trotsky]

81. Right,

because it's obviously more important that the religious majority "feel good" that someone prayed over their loved one than the religious minority have their rights respected. It's all about priorities, isn't it?

[gulfcoastliberal]

58. I have a friend from SLC, Utah...

We became friends at a Jesuit boarding school we both got sent to in our turbulent teens. I have a Jewish last name, although I am not "officially" Jewish since my mom isn't Jewish. He told me that the Mormons (with their vast geneology databases) perform some kind of prayer/rite if you die and aren't a member of some religion. So, even though he wasn't religious, he got baptized while we were there just so the LDS people couldn't do this after he died. People actually do care if they get some kinf of uninvited and unwelcome religious rite performed on their corpse. It's not their usiness to be doing this unless a family member or member of their religious congregation requests it. So if you're dead, would you care if someone took an uninvited shit on your corpse? It's disrespectful.

[gollygee]

91. How do they know what religion a body is?

This is before the remains have been identified I have to assume if it's during recovery.

So how do they know which prayer to use?

And I still think that someone who is a very devout religious person in one particular religion wouldn't want a chaplin of another religion praying over them regardless of whose prayer they said.

[bobbieinok]

64. multi-faith???? I dunno....there are Pentecostal chaplains; doubt they're

multi-faith

[knitter4democracy]

77. No, they're not.

Chaplains are of whatever faith they are. There are Catholic chaplains, protestant chaplains of all sorts, and even Wiccan chaplains. They are trained to be as open-minded and helpful for other faiths as possible, but they aren't multi-faith, and many aren't all that open-minded and helpful.

[RevCheesehead]

90. A chaplain's duties are indeed multi-faith/interfaith.

What their religion is, is who they are as a person - not a job description.

I am a woman pastor. That means I am a pastor, and I happen to be female. Does this change the job description of being a pastor? Not at all. Would someone object to a pastor praying? Maybe. Would someone object to a female pastor praying? Probably. But it doesn't change the essentials of the job description.

[Modem Butterfly]

83. I don't think that's true

In the military, chaplains are defined by their faith tradition (for instance, Capt. Yee at Guantanamo was a Muslim chaplain) but must study other faith traditions. In a pinch, a chaplain can do general duty, but whenever possible members of the military are supposed to have access to chaplains who share their faith.

[knitter4democracy]

120. I think that's how it is.

Thanks for putting it better than I did. :)

[petronius]

17. I personally wouldn't care one way or the other

if someone prayed over me or my relatives. However, I can definitely see objections from devoutly religious people if their loved ones were 'blessed' by a different religion. Particularly if someone was from a religion that requires speedy burial, and that burial was delayed for a FEMA prayer session. FEMA needs to knock this off, and get get bodies to the families so that they can engage in the rites that they choose...

Wasn't there a big outcry years ago about Mormons trying to symbolically (re)baptize everyone on the planet as a Mormon?

[marions ghost]

119. I think this is why they're doing it...

as u say "it would bring comfort to some families to know that their loved ones were prayed for."

Basically it's a PR move to make people "feel better" -- calculated to obscure the fact that people's living bodies were not taken care of when they should have been. There is no need to do this other than political maneuvering.

Also it works to help blur the separation of church and state and make us comfortable with govt appointed chaplains in civilian rescue situations. It's totally inappropriate. Praying in churches and in a general sense for the victims is going on around the country. ANd the victims will again receive prayers when their family claims them.

Making a show of praying over each body at this late date--for political gain is grotesque. :puke:

[katinmn]

12. Wow! They have been completely taken over of the church

It is not the government's job to pray over everyone.

Well, at least FEMA can't screw that up -- can they? :shrug:

[cornermouse]

16. Well, yeah...But shouldn't they make sure they get the right religious

affiliated pastor? After all, I'm sure a catholic family wouldn't appreciate having an evangelical or muslim or rabbi payng over the corpse. Or, for that matter, any other combination of religious beliefs.

[stellanoir]

18. I'm only praying

that they count more than a mere fraction of those poor souls.

They won't allow the official numbers to trump the casualties of 9/11. Though they should by far.

[melnjones]

19. so stupid...

Chaplains could be much better used talking to people (with their consent, of course) who are still in shelters, have lost loved ones, etc. What stupidity.

[WePurrsevere]

20. So who are they praying too and what is the prayer?

Although if I remember correctly most in NO were/are Catholic there was/is a mix of spiritual paths there just as there is in the rest of America.

Although I'm not thrilled with them doing this and I don't think they should since it is treading that line between church and state a bit too close IMO I can sort of understand it since for some religions praying over the dead is something that must be done as soon as possible to help the soul on it's way. Some believe that without prayer the souls may linger and not move on or "up". I'm not Catholic so I may be wrong (and I can't call my step-mother who is and would know) but I seem to recall something along these lines with their beliefs.

As for this, "A prayer is not necessarily religious. Everybody prays." Although that person may simply be very naive IMO that's pure horse pucky. Prayer most certainly IS "religious" (although I prefer "spiritual") and I know a few Atheists that wouldn't pray to a being they don't believe in.

[gollygee]

21. I thought of another reason this bothers me

Does this mean that only people who believe in prayer, and perhaps only a particular style of prayer, are able to be employed by FEMA in New Orleans? Because if so, then that is discrimination.

[VOX]

23. Excellent point! n/t

[AirAmFan]

22. Do these FEMA chaplains get paid by the corpse, and how much? Or are they

already on somebody's payroll, or are they volunteering their services?

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. What kind of prayer? What if the person is Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist,

Hindu, Atheist? Everybody DOES NOT pray. Is she crazy?!

[nolabels]

69. Or Satanic and prays it gets worse?

:evilgrin:

Btw, don't confuse being a cultist with being crazy, it makes us crazies in that categorized minority seem like were in the majority and that's scary :scared:

[Qibing Zero]

25. I have a hard time believing that's not the typical kind of...

..thinking done by the majority of the folks in DC and in the government these days. Just no connection to reality left in their minds whatsoever...

[liberalitch]

26. I'm praying for a lightening strike at their end of the gene pool

[Iris]

28. You know, I don't like gov't mixing with prayer, but in a case like this,

I gotta say, what harm can it do? If the deceased didn't believe in whatever the prayer is about, what harm is actually done?

[GarySeven]

30. The harm is the delay and waste of tax dollars

How many chaplains are there? Let's say there are five of them. At any one time these chaplains are at various places scattered all over the parishes. Now let's say a recovery team locates a corpse - they wouldn't be allowed to touch it until they can contact one of the chaplains. So, there is the recovery team, standing around with nothing to do - if they search another home they might find another body and have to call another chaplain - and wait for the chaplain to arrive. Now, how is the chaplain supposed to arrive? Does he have his own helicopter/boat/deuce-and-a-half - or does he have to hitch a ride with another crew headed in that general direction. If there are only 500 bodies to recover, it may take up to 3 to 4 hours to recover each one if the crews have to wait for the chaplain to arrive. IT'S MADNESS!!!!

[spacelady]

33. GarySeven, you have been the voice of reason in this thread...

recovery is one thing, laying to rest is another--let the family decide. Monument artist here, I know of which I speak.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

29. This is where Patwah gets to prove how he's using donation $$$

I suspected anything "Operation Blessing" would do would center around the laying on of hands in lieu of actual constructive effort.

[spacelady]

31. How much more can they stall the recovery of loved ones?

Becuase that's ALL I can discern from this posturing.

[cynatnite]

32. Everybody prays????

Is she kidding?

I haven't prayed in years.

[Bluebear]

38. I thought the same thing.

[Retrograde]

34. cynical observation

IMHO, this order came down because that's what happened in NYC after 9/11 - at least when the rescue workers' bodies were recovered. Furthermore, it's a CYA for all the criticism of the Feds allowing bodies to remain unburied where they lay for weeks.

Two other points:
-why is FEMA ordering this? Isn't the state of Louisiana contracting with Kenyon? Shouldn't they be the ones to say what goes?
-if bodies must be prayed over, can't they all be brought to one (or a limited number) of central locations and prayed over en masse? Wouldn't that be much more efficient?

[Kadie]

35. They can offer prayer at death but they couldn't offer food and water

to keep them alive?

[Helga Scow Stern]

37. Heard this on NPR last week. Praying as trucks come in, and

other times too.

[bettyellen]

39. they are still bypassing rotting bodies to collect later....

that's a big no no for some people of faith. they sent rescue teams home 10 days ago and yest are still discovering survivors...
yet they have time to pray? how sick is this? i'm sorry give those chaplins masks and body bags, and let them do right by the dead.

[Miss Chybil]

40. Who cares? They're dead. If you don't believe prayer works,

then it's a mute point. If it does work, and these people get to go someplace better for it, (or, their relatives BELIEVE they will), yeehah. They've had enough hell already. Get over it. Praying on dead people won't bring them back and it won't make them any deader.

Let's move on to the next FEMA insanity of the day...

[Modem Butterfly]

74. Yeah, like the idea that prayer somehow isn't religious

:eyes:

[Miss Chybil]

88. Nobody said it isn't "religious."

I said, "Who cares?" It's like throwing a fit because somebody put a hex on somebody else. If you don't believe hexes work, why would it bother you? If you do believe they work, and you're afraid of them, why wouldn't you be just as joyful at a request to some invisible entity for a good thing to happen to somebody? Unless, FEMA's going around forcing citizens to get on bended knee - as opposed to asking clergy to say a prayer - I don't get the beef.

Some people are very "religious" and the thought their loved ones passed and have gone to the "next life" without the proper send off would be very upsetting to them. Praying over the dead serves one true purpose, in my opinion, and that's to comfort the living. That's all it need do. If it sends a soul to a happy place, that's bonus. If it doesn't, nobody's the worse for the wear.

[Modem Butterfly]

98. The FEMA official did

Read the original post and the original article.

[Miss Chybil]

101. "...an instruction that CHAPLAINS bless recovered bodies.

A company source said the Feds are insisting on this, and the first chaplains are supposed to go out this week."

That's what it says. I read it.

chap·lain
n. Abbr. Ch.
A member of the clergy attached to a chapel.

A member of the clergy who conducts religious services for an institution, such as a prison or hospital.
A member of the clergy who is connected with a royal court or an aristocratic household.
A member of the clergy attached to a branch of the armed forces.

The FEMA spokeswoman is not too bright in saying praying is not religious, but I think we've seen their intelligence level in full spotlight in the last few weeks. That's not the issue. There are religious people who have lost their loved ones. I'm sure they would like to know they were prayed over. For the non-religious, those who don't believe in prayer, the act should be considered futile. Nobody's going to proselytize and convert a dead person.

[mondo joe]

116. The religious people CAN pray over THEIR loved ones - even in ways

appropriate to THEIR religion.

These are personal choices - not for strangers or government.

[Miss Chybil]

122. Hard to do when you're hundreds, or thousands of miles away.

And when you wouldn't know your loved one if you saw them, you don't know they've been found, and/or they can't be identified by other means. It is a chaplains job. I really doesn't hurt. Unless of course you're afraid it might work.

[mondo joe]

126. Why? Does prayer only count when standing right in front of someone?

And as to it HUING, it hurts the rights of the deceased and their families.

If I were an Orthodox Jew the last thing I'd want would be a Protestant Chaplain praying over my brother.

I could go on with other variations but it's the same - the dispensation and related ceremonies are a PERSONAL matter for the FAMILY to decide.

It's not the role of government.

[Nobody]

41. Burial Blessing Cleric I

This spell causes the recipient corpse to be protected from becoming undead.

Useful that, especially since Anne Rice is from New Orleans.

[shadowknows69]

43. they should have someone praying for their souls

and that of their leader, underserving of forgiveness as he is. Onward Christian FEMA soldiers.

[BrklynLiberal]

44. The inmates are DEFINITELY running the asylum!!!

[kestrel91316]

46. Everybody prays???? What planet is he living on?

I sort of believe in God, but I don't worship. I rarely pray. And what about atheists and agnostics? Are they not actually human so they aren't included in the "everybody"?

Theocracy is already here, and we welcomed it with open arms, it seems.

[Fescue4u]

48. So?

There dead. they don't care.

If there isnt an afterlife it doesnt matter.

If there is an afterlife, I seriously doubt that God waits for Fema to recover the body before sending them to heaven or hell.

However, it may give the families some comfort, as they likely will have no say in their funeral arrangements at this point.

Worst case is that it pisses off a few athiest. But if the athiest are right, then it doesnt matter. If the athiest are wrong, it will doesnt matter.

Short story...It'll give far more families comfort than it upsets, and thats what good government is about.

[Az]

80. Lets put it this way

Would you want a Satanist praying over your dead body? Then who is to say that the person they are praying over approves of the prayer being foisted on them? There are more religions and beliefs than you can imagine. The hubrous to think that its just atheists that would object is astounding.

There was a lawsuit not too long ago launched by a group of Jews that were upset that a group of jehovah witnesses were praying for their ancestors to be allowed to enter heaven. Now to my thinking this is silly. If they are the wrong religion then what impact do their prayers have. But it mattered to these individuals.

Praying over a dead person is the ultimate insult in some cases. It dismisses their entire life if they did not happen to believe the same faith as the one praying.

[mondo joe]

109. So what if someone sexually molests the bodies? It won't matter to them -

they're dead.

How you got to the idea that praying over bodies is what good government is about is a mystery.

[Fescue4u]

123. SO Fema is ordered to Sexually Molest bodies?

And pray tell WHY hasnt that been reported?

[Raksha]

51. How is this any of FEMA's business one way or the other? n/t

[gatorboy]

52. I see this more as an excuse for mass graves later.

Some funerals have prayer. families expect a decent burial for their loved ones lost.
But FEMA doesn't want to waste time indentifying the dead through whatever means. So now if anyone asks about a proper burial for dead family members, all FEMA has to say is, "Don't worry about it, we already said a nice prayer for them." and get on with the business of burying the unidentified dead in mass graves. It's a PR stunt.

[Nihil]

71. I think you're right

> FEMA doesn't want to waste time indentifying the dead through whatever
> means. So now if anyone asks about a proper burial for dead family
> members, all FEMA has to say is, "Don't worry about it, we already
> said a nice prayer for them." and get on with the business of burying
> the unidentified dead in mass graves.

They'll dress it up in all sorts of officialese to justify the speedy
processing of the remains but the "prayer before moving" will be used
to quieten the religious protesters.

Sometime in the future, an archeologist will find the "mass graves of
the Bush administration" ... the question is how many sites will they
find ...?

[Pooka Fey]

65. We'll withhold aid and prevent international aid orgs from saving lives,

but to make up for purposely causing untold death, destruction, and suffering -- we'll make sure the bodies are prayed over.:puke:

Our tax dollars at work.

[The Backlash Cometh]

68. FEMA needs to do less praying and instead do more work.

[all.of.me]

70. what about bodies NOT recovered?!

oh, that's right. they don't exist. :crazy:

[pepperlove]

72. And this offends....

in what way? Does it hurt ME if these bodies are prayed over? C'mon guys... we don't wanna look as stupid as the repugs!!!

[Modem Butterfly]

73. So is everybody who thinks this is a waste of government stupid...

...or is it just those who don't wish to be prayed over?

The idea that prayer is somehow not religious is completely idiotic. Pointing that out is not stupid.

[pepperlove]

75. What does it cost

to pray? What does it add or remove? That's all I was asking or pointing out... we whine over so much, why add this? Sees silly (maybe that is a better word?). Just MY take on things. Not written in stone of course. :)

[Modem Butterfly]

76. Depends on how much you're paying the prayers of course

Don't forget there are other costs of employment, such as benefits, unemployment insurance, OSHA, and state and federal taxes (which must still be paid for federal employees). Then there's also the training costs, since they're probably not allowing anyone to walk in off the street and handle dead bodies. Plus, there's the resource costs, fuel, food, equipment, etc.

[jonnyblitz]

79. the "cost" is the slow erosion of separation of church and state...

ant THAT, to those of us who presume to live in enlightened times, is a very frightening prospect. It may be an insignificant act per se but what it implies IS NOT. I find it amusing, perhaps sad, that I would have to point this out on a progressive discussion board to anybody.

[pepperlove]

86. Could be that

some of us are not THAT "progressive" (and never will be). As I said, not set in stone - just doing what we ALL do, giving an opinion (and yes I know about them) :)

[Modem Butterfly]

107. Some of us may not be progressive at all

Or even Democrats...

[mondo joe]

115. How "progressive" is separation of church and state? How "progressive"

is simply respecting the most personal choices of citizens?

[info being]

117. Go away communist :)

Seems like some of the newbies here have a lot to learn. Shees.

[Az]

82. A repeat from above

Would you want a Satanist praying over your dead body? Then who is to say that the person they are praying over approves of the prayer being foisted on them? There are more religions and beliefs than you can imagine. The hubrous to think that its just atheists that would object is astounding.

There was a lawsuit not too long ago launched by a group of Jews that were upset that a group of jehovah witnesses were praying for their ancestors to be allowed to enter heaven. Now to my thinking this is silly. If they are the wrong religion then what impact do their prayers have. But it mattered to these individuals.

Praying over a dead person is the ultimate insult in some cases. It dismisses their entire life if they did not happen to believe the same faith as the one praying.

[Gormy Cuss]

93. more pointedly

Would you want a Satanist praying over the body of your dead parent or child? The dead have already sorted it out, so to speak. One purpose of the prayer is to comfort the living.

[beam me up scottie]

84. Too late. You've already won the booby prize.

But ignoring the rights of non-christians in this country, you've aligned yourself with Falwell, Phelps and the chosen one in the Oval Office,to name but a few.

Congratulations and welcome to the wonderful world of bigotry!

[mondo joe]

106. This offends because religion is a PRIVATE matter.

How about if bodies are sexually molested? HOw does that hurt ME?

[Az]

78. It is the predatory nature

of aggressive beliefs to spread during times of crisis. They believe they offer comfort and solace but in many cases they offer ignorance and oppression.

[beam me up scottie]

85. POTUS DECLARES ALL DEAD BODIES ARE TO BE CONVERTED TO MUSLIMS.

After all, it's never too late to save an infidel's soul, right?

Let's UN-baptize the dead christians, convert them to Islam and send them off to Allah.

Now, who here would find that offensive?

[Maraya1969]

87. How many have they sent to Iraq? And do they pray over the dead Iraqi's?

Or is it just the Americans that get to be prayed over? Oh yea, the Iraqi's are Muslim so they have no God and are going to Hell anyway.:sarcasm:

[beam me up scottie]

89. They would probably baptize the dead Iraqis first.

It's not like christians haven't done THAT before.

But what's the harm, right?

What do they care, they're dead, right?

:sarcasm:

Nice to know so many DUers don't care about religious freedom.

I guess if your religion is the dominant one, it's not that big of a deal.

[RedCloud]

92. But, but, but, point of order!

If God in his (her?) infinite compassion murdered those folks to teach us some now forgotten moral lesson, isn't it blasphemy then to pray for them?

[StellaBlue]

94. I DON'T PRAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anyone did this to me I would be PISSED.

[MsUnderstood]

97. Well I've heard New Orleans is pretty haunted

So I think it is wonderful that FEMA is taking every precaution to stop the import of ghosts into the city.

See if you pray over the bodies, they will go to heaven. If you don't, the souls will hang out in New Orleans and slow the progress of reconstruction by scaring the contractors we're bringing in.

*BOO*

[pepperlove]

102. Not at all

prayer for the person is, to MANY, a comfort... I mean the families knowing it.... and it hurts NO ONE.

[Modem Butterfly]

103. Unless, of course, your religion varies...

But that's stupid. Everyone has the same religion, right?

[pepperlove]

104. Nope

but not everyone is anal about a simple prayer.

[Modem Butterfly]

105. And we should certainly offend those that are, right?

Particularly those whose religions have very strict guidelines for handling the dead...

[pepperlove]

108. A prayer does nothing

offensive - unless one is anal, as I said. And that is ALL I will say.

[Modem Butterfly]

110. To you

But others disagree. And since these prayers are literally forced upon the dead, and their families by extension, in addition to the rest of the US through the added expense, they should be stopped.

[mondo joe]

113. Unless you are offended by violation of separation of church and state.

or the act of government intervening in the most personal choices.

[Modem Butterfly]

114. Or the idea of a Prostestant prayer...

...said over your fervently Catholic mother...

[pepperlove]

125. Chances are....

she'd survive a prayer.

[mondo joe]

128. What, no respect at ALL for religious beliefs or choices?

Would it hurt you to muster some respect for the religious beliefs of others?

[pepperlove]

129. I respect em all

and I stil say prayer is not gonna harm anyone - dead or living (except in their "minds").

[mondo joe]

131. To the contrary - if you' respected them you'd respect their

differences.

"It won't hurt em" is not a defense for disregarding the right of families and individuals to make their own personal choices.

Does it hurt them if a necrophiliac has intercourse with the corpses?

[pepperlove]

132. Dunno

does it? What a silly statement.

For me to pray over a dead body will not harm anythinig or anyone REGARDLESS of their "religion". A Catholic can pray for me - we have the same (ONLY) God... a Buddhist can pray for me... the fact that I do not share their beliefs makes NO difference...

[mondo joe]

133. If your standard is IT WON'T HURT THEM why not Necrophilia?

Can it hurt the corpse?

Yes, anyone can pray any way they like. Having the government mandate prayer is another matter.

But since you're not concerned with respecting the religious beliefs of others, that certainly won't matter to you.

[pepperlove]

134. You are right

It doesn't bother me in the least.

[mondo joe]

135. Now that we've established you don't care (just like Freepers

at Camp Casey), is there a reason to continue pretending to be a dem?

[pepperlove]

137. Dear one

I was a Democrat when you were a gleam in some guys eye.

[mondo joe]

138. We know who chants "I Don't Care" and it's not dems.

Thanks for the game.

[pepperlove]

139. Many of us Democrats

do not care about foolishness such as this was (is).... thus, I don't care....does not mean I am not a Democrat. How silly. Go elsewhere with this mess. I want to speak to the issues.

[mondo joe]

140. Zell Miller, is that you?

Don't care about separation of church and state.
Don't care about protecting privacy.
Don't care about minorities.

Sounds more Dixiecrat than Democrat.

[pepperlove]

146. None of those

were the discussion... the foolishness was yakking about Frank Lloyd Wright and athiesm etc... I do not care about those matters.... and said so....

[Modem Butterfly]

141. You've done this in a number of threads today

You inject religion into a thread using some extremely provoking language (for instance, describing Frank Lloyd Wright's atheism as a mistake), then, when called upon it, try to claim that you only want to talk about the issues.

No one is fooled by this behavior.

[pepperlove]

142. Blah blah blah n/t

[mondo joe]

143. Is that a quote for your tombstone? n/t

[Az]

144. "And it hurts no one"

Physically you may be right. But we are talking about idenitity and intimate matters concerning it. It pretty much dismisses the entirety of the person and all their beliefs. It may be meta but in some ways that is the most important thing. And if they are dead it pretty much is the only way you can hurt them. By dismissing everything they ever stood for its like a final insult.

[mondo joe]

145. Necrophilia doesn't hurt anyone either. Neither does cursing them.

But I'm hard pressed to think these people would similarly defend these actions.

[0007]

100. When I croak, I don't want any prayers said over me.

I want a 300 mic hit of LSD put under my tongue.

[FreedomAngel82]

111. Uh not everybody prays

[jmowreader]

118. I think they're right. Everyone DOES pray.

For instance, every leftist in America prays this simple yet moving prayer every day:

"Oh God! What has that idiot done NOW?"

However, I don't think the FEMA lady really meant that everyone prays for Bush to be smited the way that we do.

[pepperlove]

127. Hehehehe

I join ya in that latter prayer.

[elehhhhna]

121. Correct your headline please!

Don't your mean "pray over both recovered bodies" ?

Bodies? I dont' see no bodies.

[baby_mouse]

124. "a FEMA spokeswoman responded: "A prayer is not necessarily religious.""

UH?

What's she TALKING about?

[bluedawg12]

130. A prayer is a symbolic act endorsing religion.

Is that the role of the federal government?

[lonestarnot]

136. WTF does this mean? LOL

[NYC]

147. The final insult.

I'm a strong believer in separation of church and state. I would consider it an insult for the state to employ people to pray over my dead body, especially when I can no longer make any effort to promote separation of church and state.

They win.