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pstokely Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 12:28 AM
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Focus on the Canine
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A-Possum Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. Pathetic
If it weren't so sad it would be amusing. What would be lovely to see would be how quickly a clicker trainer could have had that poor dog rushing to its bed, tail wagging and eyes bright, never having touched a hair on it.

Of course, people like that guy can't stand the idea of using positive motivation because they are clueless about motivations and behavior. They think dogs should "want" to please you.

Focusing on canine, I highly recommend THE CULTURE CLASH by Jean Donaldson for some real truth about dogs and the misery we cause them by this sentimental idea that they think the way we think. Focusing on people (in spite of the title) read DON'T SHOOT THE DOG by Karen Pryor.

Both are eye-openers.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well put.. there is clearly a "dominance" problem and he has no clue....
As do most people about animal behavior of this sort.

MZr7
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Can you give us some pointers so we don't have to read another
book? How do we hurt our dogs? This sound horrible to me because I would never want to hurt my dog.
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A-Possum Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Big topic
It's a topic that's worth several books, but I'll try to give some basic explanation of what I mean.

Basically, we tend to believe dogs view the world the way we do, that they understand our concepts of right and wrong, and therefore feel guilty when we come home and discover that they've chewed up our shoes. Our evidence for this is that they lower their ears and slink around or act placating when we get angry at them. Actually they are responding to our immediate anger, trying to avoid it. They don't connect that to the shoes.

The James Dobson example is pretty classic, in that he interprets the dog as having a "defiant" attitude and taking some kind of personal stand against him, the Boss. He assumes that 1) the dog has a concept of "right" (obedience) and 2) the dog deliberately made a decision to be "wrong" (defiance).

When we anthropomorphize dogs this way, we assume they can reason out what we want, and make a rational decision to go along or not. In fact, they simply respond to the immediate feedback they get from anything they do, and they interpret the feedback through their dog viewpoint. So, when they're chasing a squirrel and don't come when we call, it's not "defiance." They are simply responding to the more immediate feedback of "fast-moving prey that's fun to chase!" and they have not been given a good enough reason (on their own terms) to NOT do this. They will ALWAYS respond to the strongest stimulus according to the Dog List of Stimuli, not the Human Concept of Obedience.

Dobson gave the dog no reason to obey him. The dog had good reason NOT to obey him (the warm furry seat that it liked). Dobson may be able to talk to a kid and explain that it must go to bed because there's school tomorrow, and then have some reason to think the kid has deliberately defied him by not going. That's not the case with a dog.

A dog doesn't know tomorrow, it only knows NOW. What the dog understood at that moment is that it was in a comfortable place and had no reason to move, and then this huge guy threatened it when it was cornered. So it gave the dog's version of a warning to Keep Your Distance. This is very typical when one dog feels another is pushing too hard. A lift of the lip--Hey, you, that's too close, back off, you're making me nervous.

Then the big guy attacked. (A well-socialized dog would not have attacked; it would have backed off. A poorly socialized dog might have attacked.) Once attacked, the dog had no choice but to defend itself any way that it could.

I could go into the question of whether a dog should ever threaten any human in that way. (It should not.) That kind of behavior doesn't come out of the blue, though, out of a sudden decision by a dog to "defy" the human. It comes from poor socialization as a puppy, when any dog MUST be socialized heavily to humans and other environmental factors it will meet in its life. That's a topic in itself.

This dog was resource guarding its favored location. This is normal dog behavior, there's nothing psychotic or vicious about it, on dog terms. However, it's a problem for humans. It should be addressed specifically in two ways. First, making sure the dog has a "soft mouth" (best learned as a puppy) so that it doesn't bite down in aggression, and then by placement exercises in which, using positive reinforcement, the dog is given a REASON to move itself where the human wants it to move. Placement commands are things like, "in the car," "off the bed," "off the couch," etc. This should be done BEFORE there is a problem, ideally. But even after there's a problem, the approach should not be to think, "This dog is being bad! I'll punish it!"

An overly simplistic method to train this dog to get off the toilet seat would be:

1) when dog isn't on the seat, encourage it to hop on by patting the seat or whatever. Praise a bit for this (no food treat)

2) give your off cue ("hop down!" or such) while urging it by patting the floor, making nice alluring sounds, back away a bit, etc. When it gets off, give a food treat and make happy sounds. (Preferably don't lure off with the food, but if you must go to this in early trials, it's not the end of the world)

3) wash, rinse, repeat, until it is solid response to your cue

4) do surprise trials, at random times cue the dog on and then off the seat

You can do this with lots of different locations, like car, crate, etc.

The reason I said we cause dogs misery by some of our sentimental attitudes is that we expect too much of dogs. We expect them to simply understand that guarding their nest by growling is "bad." And if they don't understand this, and we can't figure out how deal with them, and then one day they bite a kid, they get taken to the pound and left there to their fate. When in fact some active work and time taken beforehand would have prevented the problem.

Sorry, I really haven't explained much, I really do think it's worth your time to read THE CULTURE CLASH. Because dogs are worth that much of our time, effort and understanding.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. You did a good job of explaining. I know that when you walk a dog
and it goes to the bathroom and puts its head down and acts like it is embarrassed it is because of early potty training when the puppy was berated for going in the house.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-19-05 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
6. Contact information for Dr. Dobson in case anyone wants to tell
him what they think of his dog beating tactics.

http://www.focusonyourchild.com/contactus/
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