Abortion - How To Frame It And Win

[ruggerson]

Forget all the crap about moving to the right on abortion. You win issues based on strategy, not subtle policy shifts. The way to win this is simple:

Ask Republican anti-choice candidates: If Roe V Wade is overturned and you get your wish and abortion is made illegal, what would you do with all the women and the doctors who broke the law?

A number of us have long been advocating this line of questioning, and wondering why candidates and/or the media do not pursue it.

Lo and behold, Tim Russert (who must lurk at DU) asked this in the Virginia Governor debate last week. The Republican tried to duck and weave and ended up looking like a total hypocrite. The one question lost the whole debate for the Republican.

If you take the anti-Roe line to its logical end, which is the criminalization of abortion, there would HAVE to be penalties for breaking the law, both for the woman and the doctor. You can't have a law for which is there no punishment for its violation.

But Republicans cannot answer the question honestly, as they can't be seen advocating putting hundreds of thousands of women behind bars.

EVERY DEMOCRAT in '06 and '08 should be asking this question of their anti-choice opponent:

What would you do with all the women and the doctors who broke the law?

[BayCityProgressive]

1. I totally agree

if Roe v Wade is ever overturned I will riot. I think the GOP is smart though and iwll continue to slowly chip away at abortion rights until it is only available for the rich.

[hopeisaplace]

6. I know you guys know what I'm about to say already

..cause many of us are on the same page about this..
PRO CHOICE does NOT mean PRO ABORTION..sorry I don't have
questions you can pose yet (I'll give that some thought)

I have two very personal examples of "choice":

My neighbor and I were expecting our third child at the same time...She found out she had cancer during her pregnancy..they advised her to terminate to give her a better chance to survive...
she couldn't do it...Beautiful little girl was born, and one year later her Mom passed away..leaving Dad with three kids under the age of five.

In another instance, a relative of mine, found out she had cancer as well during pregnancy..they advised to terminate to save her life..she wouldn't do it..She and her baby were buried together..it was beyond sad...she left four living kids...(2 had passed years previous)...She was without a doubt the kindest, most loving soul ever...

So Pro Choice is NOT Pro Abortion...these women had the "Choice" of what they wanted to do...no government or "holier-than-though" types had a say. And that's the way it should be.

I wrote song lyrics about it..
(If Mods think it's to long, feel free to delete my post)...thanks,

FOR EMILY - A MOTHER's CHOICE

An afternoon stroll with a friend on a heated day,
Her hair perfectly swaying to her giggle bounce
Holding her tummy, simply stating
“I have a baby on the way”

Hugs, kisses, dreams and wishes
For this Mrs
The sun shining inside and out
So lucky she felt that day, she has a baby on the way

Baby’s daddy holds mommy’s hand
Says thank you honey, I love you so much
Our baby is lucky to have your heart
And I’m so blessed to wear your band

A visit to the doctor turned perfect joy into shock
You have cancer he told her
You won’t live with this life in you
Sit soon with your husband and have a talk

Hugs, kisses, dreams and wishes
For this Mrs.
The sun shines brightly on this day
Cause she still has her baby on the way

Her husband crying uncontrollable tears
Loving her so
He could never ever let her go
He can’t choose
he doesn’t want to lose
His wife or his child

She knew for her this baby was a voice
A wish she made so long ago
A wish come true
And there was no government telling her what to do
It was ultimately her decision, her choice

Six years have passed, and Emily asks,
“Daddy, when will I see mommy?”,
Today my sweet angel,
Today

Hugs, kisses, dreams and wishes
For this Mrs
The sun still shining on this day
as Emily kneels to pray
For mommy

Mommy had made her choice
And daddy still hurts so bad, he misses her smile, her touch
But he holds Emily today
with Mommy's light warming them both
His deep indescribable love for Emily sustains him
On her birthdays

Hugs, kisses, dreams and wishes
For Emily
The sun still shining on this day
her hair perfectly swaying to her giggle bounce,
as she plays,

[Ilsa]

7. Lovely tribute. Makes me weepy, thinking about the children left

behind without their mommies. Some people say that losing a child is the worst thing that can happen in your life. I'm not so sure about that: I think a child losing a beloeved parent might be worse. At least a parent has some coping skills. I don't want to think about the children that could lose their mommies because they had an unsafe abortion.

[hopeisaplace]

10. I soooo agree with you

Thanks for the kind words,

I just don't know what I would do if I were in the situation I described above..but leaving my children..that would destroy them..
But the main thing is "the choice would be mine to make"..My youngest would be so devasted...I'm so grateful I've never had to make this "choice".

[question everything]

35. What a wonderful post.

And how sad for all the people involved.

And.. welcome to DU

[Cronus Protagonist]

30. Stiff fine and probation?

Is it really that hard to answer the question?...

oh yeah, killing unborn babies in Christiamerica would be a capital offense - the problem is where do you draw the line? Probably jail for life on the first offense, if I read them correctly. Still, why wouldn't they admit that? We all know they want it that way.

Who are the people out there who don't know that by now?

Who?

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[FreedomAngel82]

33. I think what they could do

is turn it to a state's right thing. That will be even worse personally because of the Bible belt. No way would that happen here. *sigh*

[JVS]

2. Cheap way to feed the poor! Fetuses are the gov cheese of the XXI-century!

;-)

[cmd]

3. I'm not for illegal abortions

is my standard reply. Then I ask, "Are you?"

[maine_raptor]

4. My take on abortion

As far as the Federal Government should be concerned, it is soley the Mother's problem. The Constitution says nothing about fetuses, it talks to We The People, so until a fetus breathes air and becomes a Person, the Federal Government should just butt out. That is a true strict interpretation of the Constitution, which is what most of the anti-choice people say they want in this issue.

[KBlagburn]

38. The right of choice is given by GOD

The bible says we are all born with free will or choice. God gives us the right to make decisions in our lives, whether good or bad and we have to live with those choices. No one has the right to force their personal beliefs or choices on others. We have to make those choices for ourselves. I do believe that abortion is murder. I do believe that I have the right to live my life as I choose. I do believe others have the
right to live their lives as they choose. I do believe in pro choice. Why? Because God gave us that right.

[KerryOn]

5. If abortion is made illegal...

... I don't think you would find many doctors willing to do the procedure, and then it will be done in back alleys.

I feel the talking point is simply: If a woman choses to have an abortion it is between her, her doctor and God. It is not anyone else's business. God can be the judge. I meet Paul Hackett yesterday, and this was his belief as well.

There are many other issues that are more important such as the economy. Show everyone what a mess Bush has made of this country through outsourcing and Government overspending, and issues such as abortion and gay rights will take a back seat.

[ruggerson]

8. But we've been saying that abortion is between a woman and her God

for fifteen years and losing elections and losing ground because they use this as a WEDGE ISSUE.

What is needed is to WEDGE them right back. Hence, the question about jailing women.

[KerryOn]

42. First time I have heard it mentioned...

All I have heard is a womans right to chose. There is a difference.

Again, I think this issue will go away, if people are directly effected by Bush's economy etc. The three G's will not be that important to anyone, if Bush keeps running this country into the ground.

That should be the talking point.

[rurallib]

9. First talk about women's health and choice

then talk about creating a society where education and health care and decent paying jobs are available so children can be brought up right. But most of all quit talking in THEIR TERMS!!!!!

[hopeisaplace]

11. Maybe frame it this way...

They're not Pro-Life..
They're ANTI-CHOICE.

The Anti-Choice people want to infringe their beliefs on you
in the form of "legislation". Why is that? They lack "faith"
in people making their own "choice". Why are they against
freedom????

[Maru Kitteh]

14. Why do they hate America? Everything you raise there is true

Forced birth is no more free than the force abortions of China.

they are two sides of the same kind of totalitarian coin.

[hopeisaplace]

18. hey good one...

I like that slogan too...

"forced abortions and forced births are both the ideals of a totalitarian government"..."why are they afraid of freedom"...

hmmmm....like this line of thinking..

[Maru Kitteh]

37. In the end control of birth always denies liberty and freedom and equality

whether the state is forcing or denying reproduction. In the end the vessel (woman) becomes a managed object, no longer an individual with freedom of self determination.

[Quixote1818]

12. The name Pro-Choice should be changed to Pro-Privacy

And people who are Pro-Life should be called Anti-Privacy. Just changing the wording will work wonders for our side.

Pro-Choice reduces a very difficult situation to sounding like one is shopping for an Avocado. Pro-Privacy sounds like: "Get the hell out of my bedroom Tom Delay!"

[hopeisaplace]

13. Hey I like that one...

"Pro-Privacy".

That could lead to some very insteresting debates framing abortion along with the whole privacy issues (you bagged two for one here!) :)

[ruggerson]

20. I like that, it also creates a wedge n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

15. Forced birth is no more representative of a FREE society than the forced

abortions of China. I said it a couple of bumps up but I would like to say it again.

They are two different sides of the same totalitarian coin. A woman is not free without the freedom to make her own choices in child bearing.

[understandinglife]

16. Wellness is the priority of the physician, patient relationship.

That, and only that, is what the government should ensure, irrespective of the nature of the threat to the patient's wellness.

A crucial part of ensuring wellness is the total privacy of the physician, patient relationship -- the government must protect that above all else.


Peace.

[Raster]

17. Frame it as Pro-Choice and Anti-Choice. That's what it really is.

I'm sick of the Anti-Choice freaks trying to claim the "Pro-Life" mantle. You're pro-life, huh? How do you feel about the death penalty? How do you feel about the US massacring thousands upon thousands of innocents in Iraq? Pro-life, eh? Do you have any tobacco stocks in your portfolio? Pro-life? So what have you done to lower the US infant mortality rate?

No one is pro-abortion, no one that is except for the "pro-life" panderers making money off the conflict.

[SaveElmer]

19. It's possible to appeal to the vast center on this issue...

Without abandoning principle.

Emphasise that no matter what your personal views, there are steps that can be taken to reduce the number of abortions without being forced into an either or position.

No one (or almost no one), thinks that large numbers of abortions are particularly healthy. Concentrate on advocating ways in which abortions can be reduced that actually have a chance of being accepted by most. Birth control, education etc.

[LuckyTheDog]

21. I tend to agree

We also have to guide the electorate through some thought experiments re: what it would really be like to enforce abortion bans. Would pregnancies have to be registered with the state? Would miscarriages be investigated by homicide detectives? How would you punish pregnant women who did not register? Would the state have a right to check medical records? Etc. etc...

We also have to make it clear that overturning Roe would be just stage one for the fundy crowd. They would never be content to just let the states decide. Their real aim is a national ban on abortion at the federal level. Their vision is to give every "product of conception" the same legal status as children.

[seabeyond]

22. every catholic friend of mine that are anti abortion i ask.

what are you going ot do to the woman. put her in jail. then you take her four other kids and divide them up in foster care. is this the answer. and the man that is 50% of this creation, doesn't the man then have to go to jail too

never, never do i get a friggin answer

i tell them, you want to put out a law in religious ideology that has no solution to what you are going to create and you take no responsibility in this. that is shameful

if you have the balls to say no to abortion, you tell me, tell me what the punishment will be to these women. i want to know, before this law is voted out

they wont

[ruggerson]

25. That's why our side has to start using the argument publicly

It's amazing me to the other side has gotten away with using this as a wedge issue for 25+ years (!) and they get away with uttering code phrases and banalities ("I'm for a culture of life", etc).

They want abortion criminalized? Ok. Spell it out, how long would you put women in jail for? Where would you imprison them? Since our prisons are overcrowded as is, where are you going to find the resources to build the new prisons to house hundreds of thousands of women who WILL break this law?

For Pete's sake, the press (and Kerry) let Bush get away with his refusal to answer whether he supports a constitutional amendment outlawing abortion.

We cannot afford to let them play this game anymore. Time to hold their feet to the fire and force them to talk IN DEPTH about the ramifications of overturning Roe.

[seabeyond]

27. personally i feel we need to communicate this is not a govt

issue. it is a moral and religious issue and we dont pass law on morality. it stays out of the courts period.

on edit, but i totally agree with you. if they are going to argue it, they have to come up with what they create once they pass the law. further they have to increase the safety nets welfare and taking care of these infants. raise taxes

[ruggerson]

31. I agree with you that it shouldn't be a governmental issue

but we've been saying THAT too for 25 years and we keep getting Republican presidents and Republican congresses and rightwing SC Justices as a result.

I guess I'm saying we have to change tactics. While we may all believe sincerely in the arguments we've been making (this is between a woman and her doctor, etc.), they have NOT been succeeding in making this issue work for us. Which is bizarre considering we have the majority of the country with us.

Thus we have to wedge the issue right back at the Republicans. And the way you do that is SCARE people into waking up. And thus, the focus of what we say should be about the ramifications of what happens if/when Roe is reversed.

It has hardly been discussed at all. Get the rightwing on the record, WITH SPECIFICS, about just how they're going to proceed. I guarantee if our candidates keep hitting on this, whenever the issue is raised, and if they bring it up in debates, we will see the wedge starting to cut the other way.

[hopeisaplace]

23. How 'bout this

Suggest that since the government would be taking a women's "freedom" away....Governments, both state and local,
would be obligated to absorbing all medical and education costs
of this child....That would seem fair.

"Forced birth by the State" = Paid Medical & Education for the Child by the state.

Gheesh, if Scottie was a liberal, he could spin this.

[omega minimo]

24. A woman's right to choose is a woman's right to choose

The most cunning and crafty strategery the Dems and DU can devise is to SUPPORT WOMEN'S RIGHTS REGARDING THEIR OWN PHYSICAL AUTONOMY, REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH AND PERSONAL PRIVACY.

Fuck framing. Call it what it is:

WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

:smoke:

[Lexingtonian]

26. Don't waste your time and energy

If you look at public opinion polling, there has been an abrupt shift to national majority of pro-choice support since O'Connor handed in her conditional resignation. About a 3%/month shift which probably hasn't maxed out yet. In fact, the 'pro-life' support is apparently eroding, it's not just that the undecideds have slipped 'pro-choice'.

I think we're operating with a national reality of 35% 'pro-life' and 60% 'pro-choice'. For practical purposes the issue is over with but for some last shouting and screaming.


http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005/50StateAbortion0805SortedbyState.htm

PRO-LIFE VS PRO-CHOICE  (Released 09/12/05)
Weighted Average 38% 56%

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll
"With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?"

Pro-Choice Pro-Life
8/28-30/05 54 38
7/22-24/05 51 42
5/2-5/05 48 44
5/2-4/04 49 44
5/5-7/03 48 45
5/6-9/02 47 46
5/01 48 42
4/00 48 43
5/99 48 42
1/98 48 45
8/97 47 44



 

[Maru Kitteh]

39. I'll stop worrying about it when I stop having a uterus.

How's your uterus doing?

[Warren DeMontague]

28. the big anti-choice groups are also opposed to legal birth control

Which is TOTALLY indefensible from a supposedly "anti-abortion" standpoint, and also WAY out of the mainstream.

If they want to reduce abortions, they can support Plan B contraception OTC, stop lauding pharmacists who dispense lectures instead of pills as "heroes", and support a SPHC system.

You're right, they want to put doctors and women behind bars-- including all women who take the birth control pill.

[Splatter Phoenix]

29. Hmmmn...

now all we need is a snappy T-shirt slogan, something similar to

"yo mama was pro-life" or
"Abortion is homicide"

only...sensemaking and right.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. Ooo very good

I'll have to keep that one in mind for the future. I'd love to see the rightwinger squirm. I saw a few minutes of that but only caught the ending. :(

[question everything]

34. If it overturned, it will be only on Federal level

Many states will be free, of course, to have legal abortions on their book. Thus any "punishment" will have to vary from state to state - those that would make it illegal, of course.

But I liked a suggestion from someone who wrote in Newsweek several months ago, do not remember who.

That person claimed that the word "choice" comes from area of consumerism and dwarfs when the other side use words with visceral meaning like "life."

Thus, it was suggested to start talking about abortion in terms of privacy which is also a very visceral concept, instead of choice.

[ruggerson]

41. exactly

"Many states will be free, of course, to have legal abortions on their book. Thus any "punishment" will have to vary from state to state - those that would make it illegal, of course."

Which is why we should get candidates who will pin them down on the specifics of making it illegal. Elucidate for the public just how people will be prosecuted for these "crimes" they will be committing.

[DanCa]

36. We can start by renaming it reproductive health care..

I really hate the word abortion almost as much as I hate the words pro life or pro choice. IMO I describe myself as pro neutreal on the subject I dont want roe over turned but I really dont want to make life and death issues for people on either side of the aisle. Simply put I am not a doctor and I believe it's wrong to practice medicine without a license. Heres are some more things I feel about abortion.

1: The only time a man has a say so in reproductive health care is before the sexual act. Thats it fineto.

2: Ill support anyones right to legally protest on thier land - not blocking streets, and making asses of them selves but if they want to hand link around there church go ahead. As long as we have the right to counter protest.

3: Those visual aids have got to go. All thier doing is scarring little kids.

4: I think it's wrong to deny any politician or persons in the pew communion for the way they vote. Its anti first ammendement.

5; There should always be an exception for life of mother, and rape victims.

Just my opinions on this and I dont legislate myopinion.

anyhow thats all i got to say . night everyone. Danny.

[radwriter0555]

40. Well you don't know? The republicans advocate the death penalty, you see..

isn't that logical?