Mystery over true death toll in Mississippi

[Watchmaker]

The official death toll in Mississippi stands at 218. Considering 60,000 homes in Mississippi were completely destroyed (ie. nothing left whatsoever) and a further 100,000 were likely damged beyond repair, with towns such as Waveland and Bay St. Louis wiped off the map, this seems like an incredibly low number of deaths.

Anecdotal reports from 3 weeks ago give much, much higher numbers of collected bodies:

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http://www.moberlymonitor.com/articles/2005/09/06/news/news1.txt
Davis said Gator has been busy rescuing as many people as he can; when she spoke to him last, he had taken over 50 people into his home to give them food and shelter. He has pulled almost that many dead bodies out of the water and taken them to I-90, where he told Davis there were about 800 corpses lined up along the road for rescue workers to retrieve.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000069092
But those numbers are considered low by law enforcement and medical rescue squads. One law enforcement officer estimates it is more likely to be between 600 and 800 Bay St.Louis alone. The residents are “in for a shock,” he tells the Washington Post.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1473894/posts?page=2690

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/nation/12575557.htm
With the search-team's tales of horrendous findings and the official death toll not matching up, rumors in this disconnected part of the world seem to be spiraling out of control.

A Florida EMA official, brought in to handle media in Hancock, told the Sun Herald the county would not release "any more numbers" until the coroners complete their collecting process.

Several armed guards stand near the front gate of the old Alcan Cable site in Bay St. Louis, where five, 53-foot, refrigerated tractor-trailers sit behind a chain-linked fence.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1480391/posts?q=1&&page=101#114

a dear friend (who is a doc in Biloxi/Gulf Port)finally called me to let me know that he was alive, said that they had found (I believe it was this morning)a shelter about 1/4 from the beach that housed 800. All 800 were found to have drown. Sad, Sad, Sad. I was relieved to hear his voice, but feel bad for what he has seen. He happened to be in the ER when the hurricane hit. All at the hospital were saved,PTL. He did, however, loose his home and all earthly possessions. He said the AFB is obliterated.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1476540/posts?q=1&&page=51#70
The death toll in Miss is in the thousands. I have now spoken to at-least 4 people who have worked down there during recovery.If you did the math between the 4 of them you would be over 1,500 alone as far as tagging bodies is concerned.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1473894/posts?page=2690#2674
My wife works part-time for an answering company. One of their clients is a funeral home up here in Upstate New York has a couple of its employees down in Biloxi as volunteers. Anyways, one of the employees called in from Biloxi - via the answering service - to let their employer know of their status. She said that they were "processing 300+ bodies per day" in Biloxi alone...

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Also, it seems the only person allowed to give death toll figures in Mississippi is Coroner Gary Hargrove who has been making very defensive statements to the local press:

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/special_packages/hurricane_katrina/communities/biloxi/12567449.htm

"There is no reason for me to deceive the public or the news media because that's not going to help the situation either," Coroner Gary Hargrove said. "Because if we start reporting low numbers and keep them low and then all of a sudden, 'bam,' we walk in and put high numbers on it, then you've created another problem. You've created deception."

This very early story is kind of strange:

--------------------------------------------

http://www.dfw.com/mld/kentucky/news/special_packages/iraq/11547092/12526471.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

GULFPORT, MISS. - Harrison County officials said Wednesday that figures they provided Tuesday on storm-related fatalities were too high.

In his second official day on the job Tuesday as the county's emergency management director, Joe Spraggins said he wasn't "100 percent certain" but that the number fatalities was "100 plus."

On Wednesday, however, he backtracked.

"There were figures given out that were wrong," Spraggins said. "Now we're going to give you facts."

A new policy makes Harrison County Coroner Gary Hargrove the only person who can answer questions about the process of retrieving dead bodies. A Federal Emergency Management Agency team was setting up a portable morgue at Riemann's Funeral Home in downtown Gulfport, but officials there would not answer questions about the nature of equipment being brought in.

------------------------------------------------------

Note the story doesn't say what the early body count was, just that was "wrong".

So what's really going on here? What is the actual policy on releasing the body count?

This quote partly explains it:

----------------------------------------------------
http://www.dfw.com/mld/kentucky/news/special_packages/iraq/11547092/12526471.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp
In Mississippi, the coroner or a deputy coroner must examine a body and determine a cause of death. But Hargrove only has a couple of assistants. Cornoers in Harrison, Hancock and Jackson Counties, and probably in Pearl River County, are combining efforts to deal with the dead, said Hargrove.

"We are not releasing information on the deceased at this time," he said, refusing to explain the reason for the delay.

The scope of the body retrieval effort is obviously straining capabilities here.

"We learned right away that we were using up our local resources," said Hargrove, referring to gloves and other disposable items used in working with the dead.
--------------------------------------------------------------

So does that mean Hargrove could have 3,000 bodies in his morgue but is only willing to state that 218 are dead because only 218 have been examined/identified by his assisstants.

Finally, the idea that gloves and disposable items were a limiting factor in the processing of 218 bodies doesn't sound right.

Bottom line: Are there actually thousands of bodies in Mississippi and this news is being seriously understated?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. I understand the fog of "war"

and I have been giving this a lot of thought.

I just don't know how they could actually affect a complete whitewash. The Social Security Death Index is free and online.

Now, there are probably a number of folks w/out SS numbers, but I don't think THAT many.

I believe we will eventually know within 100 or so victims.

As a matter of fact, I predict we'll probably get the final answer in Mid-November, 2008.

[starroute]

16. Social Security Death Index is mainly just SS recipients

It only includes deaths that are reported to the Social Security Administration -- and only deaths of people who were receiving benefits are required to be reported.

The SSDI may show a spike in deaths for August/September, which would be informative, but it's only going to be a fraction of those who died.

[pitohui]

2. as far as i know, the answer to yr question is yes

the eventual death toll will be in the thousands but because of the wide-spread devastation & inability to figure out who is missing & who is gone forever it is taking more time than anticipated

some of the bodies have been moved out of state, i myself saw a convoy of a freezer unit w. several official escorts, don't know if i should identify the forensic unit but it was from out of state

mississippi is a poor state & doesn't have the resources to identify this huge number of dead, many swept away w.out identification on their bodies, esp. women who carry purses rather than wallets will not have identification & will not be identified and added to the official count for a v. long time

i was surprised that the refrigerator car & forensic unit i saw was from another v. poor state that i was surprised could afford to send so much help from such a distance

keep in mind it took many yrs to get all the names accounted for & the monument built for camille

this was much, much, much bigger than camille

on second thought, i'm going to reveal that the forensic unit w. refrigerator van came from aiken county, south carolina, which i thought, perhaps mistakenly, to be a poor county

if there is anyone from that area who knows how many victims were processed in south carolina & if they have yet been identified, it would be great to hear from you

i have not heard anything in the news abt processing bodies in other states, most news only reports abt la dead being processed at st. gabriel

[merh]

28. Over 200 "911" calls in Biloxi alone during the storm - folks that were

trapped in their homes as the waters rose, folks that had their houses or apartments collapse around them. :cry: The cities on the Mississippi Gulf Coast cities that were devasated by Katrina on the are:

Waveland
Bay St. Louis
Diamonhead
Pearlington
Pass Christian
Long Beach
Gulfport
Biloxi
D'Iberville
Ocean Springs
Moss Point
Gautier
Pascagoula

This local news story contains audio of the 911 calls
http://www.wlox.com/global/video/WorldNowASX.asp?playerType=native&ClipID1=529066&h1=Brad%20Kessie%20Reports%20On%20911%20Cries%20For%20Help&vt1=v&at1=News&d1=194400&LaunchPageAdTag=Homepage&activePane=info&playerVersion=6

The images are frightening, the audio calls are haunting. :cry:

[meganmonkey]

3. Something is definitely amiss...

I wonder if we'll ever find out the truth. x(

Welcome to DU, Watchmaker.

Some people may give you a hard time for using FR as a source, just a heads-up ;)

[Kurovski]

33. Actually, the FR links I've perused are pretty damn good.

Another welcome to you, Watchmaker.

[donheld]

39. In this case the FR source is vital

This should show that on both liberal and conservative sites people are pointing out the massiveness of this situation. In this, it is neither a matter of life and death. Katrina, I'm afraid, could not tell the difference.

[meganmonkey]

45. I agree fully

I was just afraid I would see a display of attack-the-newbie but I am pleased not to :)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

4. I understand the fog of "war"

and I have been giving this a lot of thought.

I just don't know how they could actually affect a complete whitewash. The Social Security Death Index is free and online.

Now, there are probably a number of folks w/out SS numbers, but I don't think THAT many.

I believe we will eventually know within 100 or so victims.

As a matter of fact, I predict we'll probably get the final answer in Mid-November, 2008.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST

encountered a mysterious posting bug.

[bloom]

46. Seems like the number I heard was something like 100,000

illegals in the area. Maybe about 30,000 now who are hoping to get relief - now.


This administration thrives on secrecy. I would be really surprised to get an accurate answer about number of deaths the way things are going.

[al bupp]

48. Good Point, ma'am

However, I can think of at least one or two categories of people w/o SS#s, to wit: undocumented foriegners and children.

Deaths from any of these groups would be harder to verifiy in the way you suggest. Other delaying and thorny factors include: states of decomposition, records lost to storm, and bureacratic ineptitude in general.

It will be a while before the dust settles on this, although I cynically agree w/ your prediction.

[Selatius]

6. There is chaos on the coast in Mississippi

Many people are still displaced. Some are probably hundreds of miles away in another state. The power is down in quite a few places; the damn cellphone network in the area is still having problems; and there's probably still people who are missing. Either that, or their bodies have not yet been discovered.

As far as I can tell, more people died in Katrina than died in Camille. As far as Misssissippi gulf coast residents go, all hurricanes are measured up against Camille. At least, that was before Katrina came.

[indepat]

7. Wonder if the reported death toll in LA will be a tad on the light side?

[Watchmaker]

8. Yet another anecdotal report

http://nullbull.gnn.tv/blogs/9070/Not_Reporting_the_Real_Katrina_Death_Toll

Not Reporting the Real Katrina Death Toll
B09070 / Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:07:10 / Media
Granted, this is subjective information, but a friend of mine is on the DMORT team currently working in and around New Orleans. For those that aren’t familiar, DMORT is the Disaster MORTuary team that handles morturary services in the event of massive domestic casualty. It is generally called up by FEMA, and has been called to N.O. to handle the tragically large numbers of bodies.

When the major news media was reporting 700 dead, my friend in DMORT told me that his one team of about 30 to 40 morticians had already handled 400 bodies themselves, and there were 3 other teams working at the same pace in the New Orleans area alone (in other words, not including the significant deaths in Mississippi and Alabama).

THEN, apparently the Governor of LA decided that DMORT and FEMA weren’t working fast enough and hired a 3rd party contractor to handle body removal. DMORT has, within the last 24 hours, been ordered out of the New Orleans area and removed to “backup” duty in Baton Rouge.

My friend/source has said that by his best estimates based on interactions with his and other associated teams is that if you want an accurate total body count, you should take what the major media sources are now reporting, half it, and then ADD A ZERO.

A quick search for “Katrina Death Toll” and “Katrina Body Count” on Google yielded stories released (nearly all by foreign media) within the last 12 hours reporting 700-800 casualties. This is easily less than 30% of the total according to my source, and possibly as low as 15-20% of the real number.

[pitohui]

10. another point not anecdotal

you do realize that your Sun Herald cite above is NOT giving the death toll for the entire miss gulf coast but only for harrison cty right?

hancock cty will have a much, much higher toll, waveland alone has 50 known dead, bay st. louis unknown but believed to be 100s, long beach & pass christian completely devastated & no. of dead unknown

a death toll given for harrison
cty (biloxi) will not include any of these deaths, which could total over 1,000 & potentially many thousands

long beach is a debris field, last i heard it is blocked off by razor wire to keep ppl from looting the posessions & bodies of the dead, this is a rich cty & rich ppl have relations who will be eager to prove they are dead if they are dead

all these bodies will not be kept hidden

this is the cite i'm talking abt--
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/special_packages/hurricane_katrina/communities/biloxi/12567449.htm

he is only coroner of harrison cty & cannot give the true no. of dead so don't be fooled

[Watchmaker]

12. Agree

Yes, I agree. At the very least there is deliberate misinformation on the body count. I wouldn't perhaps call it a cover-up - at least not yet. But if Mississippi keep insisting their death toll is below 300 and unlikely to increase, then I seriously have to start beleiving there is a cover-up.

[Spangle]

9. No Mystery

1) Must have an offical "cause of death." Wind, water, etc. Not all the deaths are going to be counted as "hurricane deaths." Only then are the bodys are counted as DEAD.

2) Offical must "sign off" on the death certificate. If there is a team working, they may be processing alot of bodys a day. But that doesn't mean the OFFICAL is able to review that many reports a day.

3) The OFFICAL is in charge of alot of things, not just signing off of Death Certificates. His/her time isn't totaly focused on signing off of death certificates.

4) It's possible the OFFICAL only knows what is in front of him/her at that given time. It's possible that FEMA and other government agencys are transporting bodys elsewhere to do the "processing". If so, the OFFICAL will not get the reports until later, if ever.

5) If the OFFICAL is busy at the "office", he/she isn't going to have time to read the news, etc.. And not know about mass bodys being found.

6) In some places, they want to ID the body, before counting them.

Basicly, we don't have an honest system in place to deal with this matter. They should have a system in place where bodys are counted as found and that information is tracked. That way the PUBLIC can keep track of how things are progressing. How many have been found, how many have been procees/ not processed. How many have been ID'ed. That sort of thing.

It is rumored that Hurricane Andrew had a higher body count then the "offical" body count.

[pitohui]

11. i know for a fact some katrina miss. bodies being transported out of state

i saw it being done in marked vehicles

now i feel i should have taken photos!

[fooj]

17. I saw refridgerator trucks (at least 7-8) lined up and driving

into Mississippi from NO days after Katrina hit. It was on the news. They had a large warehouse set up to use as a morgue.

Peace.

[Nothing Without Hope]

13. Some time back, FEMA-associated morticians were told to expect up to

40,000 bodies, not including those in New Orleans disinterred from previous burials.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4674804

I'm betting that's an underestimate. More people are dying - murdered by neglect - all the time, and many bodies will never be found or counted officially if they are.

The Administration will do all it can to fudge the death toll downwards. We've seen it in their refusal to allow reporters to observe or write stories about body collection, for example.

[chalky]

14. They're keeping a rough count on DailyKos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/8/1837/41163

Might want to check it out.

[K8-EEE]

15. I Can't Figure Out The True NOLA Count Either....

Just that it's "under 10,000."

[Watchmaker]

18. Hargrove's statement?

According to Coroner Gary Hargrove (the only person who can answer questions about the process of retrieving dead bodies in Mississippi), there have been no mass numbers of bodies found together in Mississippi:

http://www.wlox.com/Global/story.asp?S=3795793

Hargrove says he wants to dispel rumors that 30 people died in the collapse of the St. Charles Apartments.

Media reports have claimed all the tenants of the complex were killed when the storm surge wiped out the building.

Hargrove says they did not find 30 bodies at the location. He says nowhere has anyone found a massive group of bodies.


But according to ABC news there were 30 bodies found together at the

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1080042&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Late Monday night, state rescue authorities said approximately 30 people were found dead at the Quiet Water Beach apartments, which collapsed under a 22-foot water surge from Katrina.


What gives...........?????

[pitohui]

19. photo of quiet water apartment, biloxi

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/ts/083105katrinamissipp

can you see this yahoo photo?

there is not one stick left on top of another stick

anyone who didn't evac that bldg is dead

their body may be washed into the gulf, their death may not be confirmed, but they're dead jim

& here is a link to cnn's report on quiet water apt:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/30/katrina.apartment.deaths.ap/

the 30 bodies were not found, they were swept away because there is nothing left

[Watchmaker]

20. So, what kind of drugs

is Coroner Gary Hargrove taking?

[merh]

26. FYI - coroners in the State of MS do not have to have any education

beyond a high school diploma -

Bodies are popping up in the gulf still (They sink, fill with gases and them float to the surface.) Work crews are still clearing debris from the streets. When I say debris, I am talking about mountains of debris, mounds of furniture, houses, trees, cars, appliances. As the crews use the claws to lift the debris into the large trucks to be hauled away, many have found bodies in the rubble. I watched as they began to remove the remains of my house from the side of the road today, the smell was awful. When the smell got really bad, we were warned that a body could be the cause. We were lucky, the smell was caused by the many stocked freezers and refrigerators that were in the debris mounds.

It was not a good day, it is not easy to watch the rubble, to smell the smell and to worry that a dead body could have laid in that pile for 22 days. :cry:

[Kurovski]

37. I'm so sorry for all your sorrow, dear merh.

Please do all you can to hold together with you and yours.

[merh]

40. I appreciate your concern - thank you for your compassion.

I am taking things one day at a time, one baby step at a time. And I am doing all I can to hold together -- my family survived this and they have all been very supportive.

Thanks again :hug:

[Kurovski]

50. I'm at least glad you have that to see you through

these times. :hug: :hug:

[Kurovski]

35. Does drinking Kool-Aid count as taking a drug? n/t

[SoCalDem]

21. Our old friend Ann Ecdotal in action

99% of the "stories" that FR reported on were ..My sister's friend, whose uncle works at.." type of reports..

With people scattered all over in shelters, there will be a real delay in accurate counts.. people who are "missing" , might juts be missing.

[BrklynLiberal]

22. BushCo has lied about everything else..why shouldn't they lie about body

counts? And based on their history BushCo should not blame the public for doubting their forthrightness.

[Duppers]

23. a raw story link

"FEMA, La. outsource Katrina body count to firm implicated in body-dumping scandals"

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/FEMA_outsources_Katrina_body_count_to_firm_implicated_in_bodydumping_scan_0913.html

[Duppers]

24. Newsweek: to the tune of $4.3 million ! For a few hundred bodies??

>>
Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco of Louisiana hired Kenyon last Tuesday for $4.3 million to recover the bodies of Louisiana flood victims.
>>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9399130/site/newsweek/

[bloom]

47. that is a good point... eom

[merh]

25. Check out the video of this local television coverage at the link

in this thread. This story contains audio of the 911 calls of folks as the waters were coming in. This is chilling and I don't believe our death toll is only 200 plus - I have spoken with too many who watched loved ones caught up in the tidal wave or trapped in their homes that collapsed in on them due to the surge. :cry:

"Brad Kessie Reports On 911 Cries For Help"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4824491


City of Biloxi alone had over 200 "911" calls during the storm :cry:


Our coast was devasated - don't let them forget us! :cry:

[IndyOp]

31. Merh - God Bless You -- We must NEVER forget!

We must NEVER forget those who died in this holocaust.

I want to see the complete list of names of those who died on an internet site - with pictures and personal stories.

I want to see a wall like the Vietnam memorial with the name of each person who died.

I want these names to be known for an untold number of generations into the future.

I want to see survivor stories on internet sites, in magazines and books and on TV and in documentaries and movies. I want each person who has suffered to tell exactly what they lost and how it has impacted their lives.

I want the whole world to know.

In this way we can, as a nation, reach a point at which we can say and really mean: NIE WIEDER! Never Again! Never, never, never again!

[merh]

41. I have photographs and video of during the storm and after the

storm. I would love to be able to set up a site to make them available to all and I have been told so many stories by survivors who lost loved ones and by survivors that helped save strangers.

Folks should be watching the obituaries in the local newspaper to begin the list of those that died on the MS Gulf Coast. http://www.sunherald.com Many funerals have taken place already. I think today's edition listed 3 that died on the 29th. :cry:

More funerals to come. :cry:

[AnnInLa]

27. The Magic 3,000 number.....they dare not reach it!

http://jameswolcott.com/archives/2005/09/index.php

From Blame Game to Numbers Game
Posted by James Wolcott

The mayor of New Orleans predicted the death toll from Hurricane Katrina could reach 10,000. Officials at the Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team--DMORT, an apt acronym--guesstimated the death toll at 40,000. Splitting the difference somewhat, authorities reportedly sent 25,000 body bags into the stricken region to accomodate human remains. But a recent sweep of New Orleans turned up fewer fatalities than feared, "suggesting that Hurricane Katrina's death toll may not be the catastrophic 10,000 feared."

snip

Here's why they're in spin mode. Since 9/11, "3000" has been elevated to a sacred, symbolic number in political discourse. It has been the solemn chord struck again and again by Donald Rumsfeld at his press briefings and public addresses--"It's important to keep in mind that the civilized world passed the 1,000th casualty mark at the hands of extremists long ago; I mean, 3,000 on September 11th alone"--and a recurring talking point to justify the invasion of Iraq and overthrow of Saddam Hussein. It has provided the grim refrain Victor Davis Hanson has gonged in column after column to lend greater reverberation to his preachings from the ramparts:

snip

When one of those leftist critics, Norman Mailer, deplored the bloated vanity of American self-involvement post-9/11 and pointed out that 3000 dead was statistically small in a population our size--"By such heartless means of calculation, the 3000 deaths in the Twin Towers came approximately to one mortality for every 90,000 Americans. Your chances of dying if you drive a car are one in 7,000 each year. We seem perfectly ready to put up with automobile statistics. I fear I am ready to say there is a tolerable level to terror..."--conservatives rushed out to renew their distemper shots, they were so spitting mad.




A more vulgar effort to shrink Katrina's impact as a national tragedy was made by Jack Burkman, a member in good standing of the vile order of Republican strategists, who said on MSNBC, "I understand there are 10,000 people dead. It's terrible. It's tragic. But in a democracy of 300 million people, over years and years and years, these things happen."

snip

I suppose these guys have to reach for any rationale lying around handy. For Hurricane Katrina has broken the post 9/11 spell that held everyone in thrall to terrorism and terrorism alone as the paramount menace on the horizon. (Compare the lyrical emoting Peggy Noonan has done since 9/11 with her dry, chapped response to Katrina.) Whatever the final numbers are from Hurricane Katrina, it will be harder for the WOT propagandists to ritualistically invoke the "3000 dead" to the same sonorous effect. Those deaths have reached their expiration date, not for mourning, but for political, cultural, and military exploitation. Here we are coming up to the 4th anniversary of that horrible day, and Ground Zero still lacks a memorial or even a palatable design, Osama Bin Laden is unapprehended, Iraq is a vale of tears, and a dorky "Freedom March" is being staged in Washington. One can only hope that the dead of New Orleans receive a more decent and deserving memorialization than the dead of 9/11 have gotten.
09.09.05 2:13PM · LINK

[newscott]

29. Well when the Tsunami hit they really had no accurate idea

how many died. Just body counts.

If a whole town is wiped out who is going to be there to identify the remains?

So if no one comes to claim the body the gov't can just hide the death, no?

[IndyOp]

30. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU --

Please, please, please keep compiling this information.

We must have the TRUTH!

:kick:

[lindisfarne]

32. A serious movement for a memorial and a call for family members to

provide names to be listed on that memorial would lead to a fairly accurate count, if the movement were widely publicized. Most people would want the names of their loved ones who died listed.

[ladylibertee]

34. We will not have the full amount until all this is over......Perhaps,

maybe six or seven months from now.

[paineinthearse]

36. "We don't do body counts," says America's soldier-in-chief, Tommy Franks.

Ties with...

http://www.alternet.org/story/15545/

"We don't do body counts," says America's soldier-in-chief, Tommy Franks. That's a damn shame.

During the Vietnam war, the body count was served up every day on the evening news. While Americans ate dinner, they watched a graphic visual scorecard: how many Americans had died that day, how many South Vietnamese and how many Communists. At the time, it seemed the height of dehumanized violence. Compared to Tommy Franks' new way of war, though, the old way looks very humane indeed.

True, the body count turned human beings into abstract numbers. But it required soldiers to say to the world, "I killed human beings today. This is exactly how many I killed. I am obliged to count each and every one." It demanded that the killers look at what they had done, think about it (however briefly), and acknowledge their deed. It was a way of taking responsibility.

Today's killers avoid that responsibility. They perpetuate the fiction so many Americans want to believe -- that no real people die in war, that it's just an exciting video game. It's not merely the dead who disappear; it's the act of killing itself. When the victim's family holds up a picture, U.S. soldiers or journalists can simply reply "Who's that? We have no record of such a person. In fact, we have no records at all."

more.......

[Tinksrival]

38. Are they hiding the #'s in this catagory.....

---------------MISSING------------


I tried to research the # of missing. It was not easy. Multiple reporting sights. Some adult, some for children, different areas. Just how many have been washed away or worse, never to be recovered? Why are we three weeks out and no organization whatsoever.

[Watchmaker]

42. Latest death toll 1,035 (entire Gulf Coast)

On http://cnn.com

Katrina death toll in Louisiana rises to 801, according to state officials, bringing overall storm death toll to 1,035. Details soon.

[rodeodance]

43. I imagine many were washed out to the gulf waters also?

[Atman]

44. Excellent post, Watchmaker...WELCOME TO DU

:bounce:

[Name removed]

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