A native man asks democrats

[Iktomiwicasa]

I'm pretty new here, but I hope that you folks can listen to me and hear what it is I have to say.

I'm opposed to the Bush administration, I do not like what they are doing in the world and to other people of color.

I am Oglala Lakota, and I'm from the Pine Ridge reservation in S. Dakota. What I want to ask you democrat people is why you have not put restoration of our treaty rights, our land claims, and freedom of our political prisoners at the very top of your agendas. Your track record in these areas is no better than the republicans. We do not want your government programs, your handouts, your funding. We do not want a "seat at your table" We have our own table...time long past for you to give it back. Your party is more than willing to be an advocate to the Palestinians, to black people, and to most any other oppressed people in the world, but you run from us. Why?

I will tell you why. It is because it is easier and more comfortable to ask someone else to give something up than it is to give it up yourselves. Restoring land claims would mean plenty of democratic voters might lose land, homes, businesses. This must not be acceptable to you, yet you have no problem asking the Israelis to do the same thing.

We as native people are the legitimate keepers of this land, not the US government and your people as a nation will NEVER have national honor regardless of who you elect and how you change the current foreign policy. You cannot have honor unless and untill you deal with us, and live up to the obligations that you have agreed to long ago.

I say this not to make enemies, not to anger or alienate, but to send a voice so YOU can force your politicians to make this a front and center issue, so you will know the right thing to do. Your nation is doomed unless you listen to us.

[hardrainfallin]

1. Truer words never spoken. n/t pls continue to post here.

[ladylibertee]

153. I'm african,english and cherokee......(Please Read)

I'm african,english and cherokee......I am also very confused as
how I would even attempt to answer the questions raised in your thread.I have just now sent an e-mail to Howard Dean who is the Chairman of the Democratic National Committee.If and when I get a response I will be more than happy to let the DU know.I invite you to stay and visit with us.I anticipate an answer from Howard Dean soon.I have to say, given my multi-racial heredity, I am in a unique position to understand where people are coming from as it relates to race and how they are treated.I myself,having more dominate african features,have experienced quite a bit and have felt the same way you have.Only,I had perceived there was more being done for Native Americans than Blacks.It's strange how we all perceive things, but as far as our Party goes,I think that is something perhaps the Chairman can answer.

[CrispyQ]

2. Welcome to DU, Iktomiwicasa.

:hi:

Many of our dem leaders are not that much different from the republican ones -- they are bought by corporate interests & represent corporations more than 'the people.'

[Iktomiwicasa]

4. So...

...what are you going to do about it?

thanks for the welcome.

[CountAllVotes]

36. so what are "we" going to do about it?

You might ask yourself the same question I suggest. Can you not find a way to organize some people on the reservation to find a way to self-determination, the final orgasmic plan passed by the Federal government? Has it worked? I don't think so given what I see since this new "law" has been passed (about 20 years ago).

My hope is that our people can hang-on to the lands they have now and that they are NOT reclaimed for the oil that lies beneath them given a state of National Emergency which those old treaties have written into them.

Do the Indian people realize this I often ask myself. Every time I bring this up I get no answer. I would like an answer. Is there an answer? The Indians must know by now they cannot trust white eyes. Every time they have, they've gotten screwed and screwed badly.

My suggestion to you is to try to find a way and means to get some of the people on Pine Ridge educated, and I mean, well educated so they can become Indian lawyers. This is the only thing I can see that will lead to a change as such individuals can and will and do have the power to make a difference. This is what is the key word here: POWER. You must know the value of power as an Indian person. Via this power they can acquire via education they can perhaps find places in the Congress. The only Indian person so far has been Glen Whitehorse Campbell, a poor example of an Indian person in the government. What has he done for our people? Nothing; another sell-out.

You cannot rely on the Democratic party for much and they are pretty much powerless at present. They don't do anything for me either. However, given my choice of Democrat v. Republican, I select Democrat as my political party as I remember the history and FDR was the best president the USA ever had for its people. I am not impressed with the Democrats we see in today's times. Too many frauds and sell-outs are Democrats. It is not just some Republicans that are greedy sell-out self-serving SOBs. They come in all colors, all races, religions and political affiliations.

In the end we find we are ultimately responsible for ourselves and our actions. We can only hope that those elected serve us in an honest and responsible way. So to me, the Democrats are indeed only the best of two bad choices. I am sad to say this really. I don't have much faith in them given what we are seeing and have been seeing for the past several years; in fact it has dwindled even further with me personally.

Integrity as a politician does not exist and has rarely existed in the past. I feel very few can be trusted and even fewer actually try to do anything to help out anyone here in the USA except for the very rich (and I mean rich in the sense of financial resources). This is the greatest failure of our Indian people. They have trusted far too much and have kept going back looking for help to this same source that has never born any fruit nor hope.

So in the end, we see we are all together in same situation. I might not live on Pine Ridge Reservation, but living in New Orleans and many other places that are poverty stricken areas, Indian and non-Indian are places ridden with suffering, poverty, crime and addiction. Addiction is a very severe problem with Indian people and also the culprit for many of the failures within the tribes to be able to pull-out of their situation(s). The same consequences from the greed of the white MAN is what rules the USA. I might suggest the time has come for a FEMALE to be in charge. Certainly as an Indian you know that women have certain powers innate that men do not possess.

I meant to also say to you, :hi: and welcome to the Democratic Underground. This is a good place for many reasons. I do not agree with much of what I read on this site, but I like it anyway because I find much truth and otherwise "buried" information here. Much of what I read here reflects my beliefs and values, much closer than the neocon Republican party offers which I cannot identify with on any level whatsoever.

Oye Mitakuye Oyasin & PEACE.

"I feel that my country has gotten a bad name, and I want it to have a good name; it used to have a good name; and I sit sometimes and wonder who it is that has given it a bad name."
-Tatanka Yotanka (Sitting Bull)

[roguevalley]

76. Welcome. I don't get it either. But your diversity and our own makes

this board home to me. I can get all opinions. Yours is important. First Nation people have MUCH to say about this world and I want to hear it here.

[The Backlash Cometh]

161. Some thoughts for you, Iktomiwicasa

I'm an independent, not a Democrat. More of a watcher, than a player. So don't blame the Democratic party if my observations upset you.

You ask for independence, but you have more than we do. Indian treaties have given your people sovereign rights which is why you're able to vote in favor of casinos even in states where it's forbidden. I recognize that most of your power has been co-opted, but by whom?

In the past it has been the government of both parties who quietly gave up your mineral rights and other resources to private companies for pennies on the dollar. Perhaps the casinos are an attempt to remedy the damage of the past? I don't know. I have a tendency to see things poetically.

But, I do wish to point this out. You're coming to the Democrats asking for independence which you already legally have. What you really want is self-determination. What you have to do is claim your right. Who among your people do you trust to be your stewards and your liaison between both worlds? If you don't have someone who can do both tasks, then prepare the next generation with those things in mind.

Reinforce your traditions, raise your children with those traditions, but also send them to the best schools in this country with the understanding that they must return to claim their birth-right and represent your people.

It's not easy, Iktomiwicasa. I will tell you something a professor once told me. In order to succeed in this world, you have to be a chameleon and move up the ranks by pretending to be something you're not. The problem occurs once you made it to the top, because once you've achieved that kind of success, it's very difficult to remember the person you were when you began.

What the Democrats can do for you is to fight to give your children the best opportunities in education as possible. But the work of bringing pride and self-determination to your tribes, that is up to you and your people. Invest in your children. Teach them the past. They are your future.

[Iktomiwicasa]

168. I general

I agree with you, yet I do think you over simplify things. We are "sovereign", yet that is a very limited thing.....try bucking the federal government and see what happens. Some tribes do have casinos, many do not. Many that do (my tribe included) do not earn enough revenue to make much of a difference. My reservation is pretty far removed from any city of size (which in many ways is a good thing) and frankly, we get enough business to barely keep the doors open. One of the great lies is that indians are all getting rich from casinos.

Another misconception, that ties in with the casino issue, is that money can settle our treaty rights and claims. Money isn't the solution. My tribe has steadfastly refused a monetary settlement for the Black Hills. We aren't selling them. How can we? It is our "holy land". Monetary settlements are simply any easy way for the mainstream government to buy us off without having to do what is right.

Indeed, we will find the solution through our traditional ways and values, but that won't keep me from harping at the mainstream culture.

[The Backlash Cometh]

192. Big smile here.

Thanks for responding. First, I harp at the mainstream AND the outside rivulets. The fact that I'm still here on DU is testimony to the Democrat's high tolerance level. :-)

Second, I did know that the tribes didn't share their wealth from tribe to tribe, which is a reason why some tribes are rich, and others are not. I wish I had a better answer for you. Perhaps in the coming decades when we need more green answers to everyday problems, we'll find them from the way American Indians learned to co-exist with their environment. Maybe it's that respect for the land which we need in our perspective when we try to find scientific solutions to our energy problems? I'd like to see what an American Indian could come up with in the lab, using your unique perspective. Maybe you can begin by leasing your land to friendly green companies which can also provide training grounds for your children?

And third, don't sell your land. I don't know the full history of the Black Hills, but I do understand heritage. In fact, that word is cropping up alot lately, "heritage." Whites reach out to their roots too, in very subtle ways.

[Deja Q]

5. Bingo.

(kicked & nominated too)

[mmonk]

3. Good question

It seems we are limited as of late to be much of an influence on our party's leaders.

[texpatriot2004]

6. I read something about this recently...in astrology. Our karma

is involved. I read that we (the US Gov) must return to policies regarding our land and environment that are in keeping with the Native traditions. The article suggested that because the US Gov stole the land from the American Indians, it must ultimately be returned (karma). I found the article very interesting.

[texpatriot2004]

7. Welcome to DU n/t

[Waya]

9. Welcome...

..Kola....;-)

[FreedomAngel82]

85. Do you remember where you read this?

I definitley think everything going on from 2000 till now is a big dose of karma and learning lessons. A lot of lessons of the past this country has not learned. Through all of this we're having to examine ourselves as well and figure out what is going on. But you can feel it's karma. We haven't taken care of people, the earth, honored promises etc. But you are right it is karma for sure. Again, you can just feel it. Oh and welcome to the new poster. :hi:

[texpatriot2004]

121. This is one of the things I read. I am still looking for the others.

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/gwbhoroscope11nov04.shtml

[JanusAscending]

133. KARMA

WOW!! just WOW! Where was this when America voted?

[IChing]

8. nominated

Thank you for your needed input and welcome to DU

[KharmaTrain]

10. And Repugnicans Will Better Respect Your Rights?

The sad history of our government's dealing with Native Americans has to be addressed, and I wish we were in a time and climate for that to happen. Right now we're all standing under seige to preserve what few rights we do have from a government that rules on money and power...on the politics of dividing its opposition.

If you think the Repugnican party will defend your rights or restore the respect you and the Lakota people should get as American citizens, why do they have such a terrible record on respecting the rights of your people?

And while you're at it, look at how Repugnicans are exploiting Native Americans today. Check out Jack Abramoff and the growing scandals where several tribes were fleeced out of millions of dollars. Look at how this regime has cut social spending, outsourcing and turns a blind eye to the illegal immigration that mans their corporate donors large farms, ranches and factories and keeps Native Americans out of moving into a better life.

Democrats would love to listen...and many do. But put your lot somewhere else and do so at your own peril.

Peace...

[Iktomiwicasa]

13. I never

...said that the republicans were our friends. I'm saying that the Democrats have done nothing as well. Nothing has changed. The Democrats pay more lip service to us, I'll grant you that, but that is all it is and they do nothing that is meaningful. The ONLY thing that really matters is treaty restoration. Anything less is window dressing.

[never cry wolf]

32. I agree Democrats have not done enough, or much

but keep in mind that they are hamstrung. All 3 branches of government are firmly in the hands of the repubes. In congress they chair every committee, determine every agenda and hold a majority of the votes. While dems have done pittifully too little, at least they are not actively trying to reverse what little progress has been made. The republicans are more than not your friends, they are your enemies.

"But the initial sense of relief about Norton in Indian country has been short lived. Within the last month, the Bush administration has put forth a slate of policies that have outraged tribes across the West, from plans to open up Watcherman Draw, a sacred site for Crow, Blackfeet and Cheyenne tribes in Montana's Pryor Mountains, to oil drilling to Dick Cheney's push to store nuclear waste on Shoshone lands at Yucca Mountain in Nevada, to gutting of salmon protections in the Pacific Northwest in order to send more hydropower to power hungry California.

Bush's pledge to boost funding for Indian education programs also evaporated. A 1997 GAO report disclosed the deteriorating conditions of Indian schools: overcrowding, no air conditioning, inadequate heating, leaking roofs, poor plumbing systems and backed up sewers. The GAO estimated that $754 million a year will be needed to bring these schools up to minimal standards of safety. But the Bush budget requests only $292 million, a decrease from current levels. School transportation funds also got slashed.

Indian housing and drug treatment programs have taken an even bigger hit. The Bush budget slashes housing block grants to the tribes by more than $52 million. The cut comes at a time when fewer and fewer Indians can afford to own their own homes, less than 30 percent according to the last census compared to 66 percent in the nation at large. Plus, the Bush budget eliminates entirely the $300 million drug treatment program that had been administered by the tribes. "These programs have done well in the past to fill in the gaps of other HUD programs, as well as to provide more diversity of funds that can fit the particular needs of each tribe," Chester Carl, chairman of the National American Indian Housing Council, told CounterPunch. "Indian country needs more options, not less."

The biggest blow, however, may have come with Bush's nomination of Neal McCaleb as Assistant Secretary of Interior for Indian Affairs. McCaleb now serves as director of Transportation for the state of Oklahoma. But back in Reagantime, McCaleb was appointed to the Presidential Commission on Indian Reservation Economies. The panel was headed up by Robert Robertson, a vice president of Occidental Petroleum, and was charged with developing ways to open reservations to "private sector" money. This was during the time that James Watt denounced reservations as "the last bastion of socialism in North America."

http://www.counterpunch.org/mccaleb.html

Edited to add: welcome to DU, I hope you have a long stay and educate us all.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

212. The immediate assumption that

"Democrats aren't doing good enough" equals "republicans are better" is the exact paranoia which is defeating the democratic party.

The only thing the two parties have in common is both like to believe their's is the only right, and only they are allowed to be right.

[ewagner]

11. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[two gun sid]

12. Man, your post really kicked me in the gut...

and I cannot think of any good answers to your questions. It also reminded me of a friend I had in the service who was from Pine Ridge.

<on edit> Welcome to DU.

[Lilyhoney]

14. Welcome to DU.

There is plenty of land for everyone.

I wish we humans would stop fighting over it and killing it.

Native, non-native, and everyone inbetween.

[chaska]

15. Ignorance is everywhere. I doubt there are many here who...

are up on Indian affairs enough to give you a good solid rebuke. But a good solid rebuke is just what you need. Democrats are a friend of native Americans. We don't do enough, granted. We can't do enough because of Republicans. We don't do enough for African Americans either. That doesn't mean we don't try.

We do a lot more than you are aware of. Can I site specifics? No.

Do your own research.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chaska]

196. Based on exactly what, pray?

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hfojvt]

184. actually I am sure he/she is aware of far more than you or I

He/she could do more educating than research. It probably would depress me to learn how little we do, but the bottom line is less about Republicans than it is about the American people and our miseducation. Even in Dakota we do not learn anything about the real story of our past dealings with Native Americans.

It is not even logical for me to say 'even in Dakota' because Dakota is no more or no less Native American land than Maine, Florida, Kentucky, Washington, Alaska, etc.

There is not even a beginning understanding of what 'we' did wrong in our history and what we can and should do to make it right. Undoing a genocide is alot more difficult than putting a cat back into a bag. As the jock said in "The Breakfast Club" - "How do you apologize for something like that? There is just no way."

In practical terms, 85%+ of Americans would need to watch specials on the History channel four hours every night for a year before we could learn enough to be willing to sacrifice more to make amends for our history. We just are not even close to there.

[Dez]

16. I'm not a Democrat

but I come here..
I think your tribe got burned really bad! Lots worse than us Navajos did.. but Americans don't really care about native people. They'd rather piss and moan about starving children in Africa, or elsewhere.. Americans just don't give a shit, Repugs OR Dems! Plain and simple.

Politicians will never make good on treaties.. they're the enemy, remember? They are in line with those same Americans which almost wiped us all out. American's just don't give a shit.

[Jokinomx]

57. Hello Dez...

I really can't disagree with you. Our government has had no interest in doing the right thing because it was the right thing to do. Every decision made by our government is with what is good for them. If you happen to get in the way as they plunder the land and planet... you are generally destroyed.

It has been a long and ruthless campaign to "better" the world with our wealth, technology and lets not forget theology.

Personally, I thing the best and healthiest society man has ever had was when tribes were prevalent.

If my apology for the way this government has treated N.A.s could mean anything.... I would do so. By now words must mean very little to you.

With that

Good luck in with your struggles....

:toast:peace pipe:toast:

[FreedomAngel82]

87. Too many people

think that when the pilgrims came here they "found" this land and that all was hunky doory. So many people don't get the history. They think it was all happy and fuzzy and good feelings and Christian people etc. They think the first Thanksgiving was all happy go-lucky when I betcha it wasn't quite so much and people were probably putting up major fronts. I've done my own research on everything and now days the day Thanksgiving is just so different for me. Instead of just being about having a day off and eating food it's a day of rememberence for those who we killed so we can have this land that wasn't ours in the first place. The least we can do for stealing is honor promises etc. *Sigh*

[hardrainfallin]

58. Bingo! (with a chunk of commodity cheese on top and a frybread to go!)

"Americans don't really care about native people."

and that applies to this board as well. I've been reading DU for at least a year, and have noticed a definite pattern: when Indian issues are addressed, the response is usually to pull out pictures of Indian heroes, get out the faux eagle feathers and to post Indian prayers and proverbs in an empty display of solidarity (I call this the "wing and a prayer" response).

One example I remember (but cannot find, because I don't remember who posted it): it was a call for donations to Pine Ridge for fuel costs and winter clothes, after an elder froze to death in her home.

Now, generally, you can count on DUers to dig deep in their pockets--even the least amongst us will find it in their hearts and pockets to chip in ten bucks--to just about any worthwhile cause on the planet.

The response to the call for donations to Pine Ridge was: "geez, I hope these people get the money they need."

One thing DU might consider doing would be to remove the insulting and disgusting, genocidal INDIAN MASCOTS from the avatar board.

Ahem.

[Iktomiwicasa]

60. Yup...

"wing and a prayer" that's the truth ennit. Reminds me of the hippies that show up every summer looking for a medicine man or a sundance.

[hardrainfallin]

69. yep. (won't be long before they start asking you to pull out your

medicine bag to bless some godforsaken trivial problem).

I say: after what the red sox pulled with Chester Nez (i.e. going and endorsing BUSH after Nez blessed them to victory), keep the medicine in the bag.

'nuffsenuff.

[nofurylike]

141. some of us would die for your peoples and the return to you of

all your lands, with full reparations.

many of us would.

and we have given our entire lives to trying to make a real difference.

how can i do more? tell me any way, please!


peace

[Mutley]

159. People really do that?

Disgusting.

[GettysbergII]

151. I remember that......

It was by some women named Lilian. I remember because I posted a similar call for contributions to the Red Lake Rez after the tragedy at the school there. Not very much response to that either.

[sepia_steel]

115. Dez

Native Americans are Americans, are they not? And Americans tend to care about people elsewhere as well as the people here. Your post makes me sad. It just isn't true that no one gives a shit.

[CountAllVotes]

17. One word = GENOCIDE

The white man was hoping that the polices of the late 1800s were successful - those of extermination ---> assimilation. These policies were highly effective in fact. Many Native people do not even know they are "Indian". This all leads to an identity situation on many levels.

If you cannot identify yourself (which is my case) as "Indian" than what can you expect to reclaim?

It sickens me and I work constantly for our people. I find the poverty that many of our tribes live in to be the most worst form of poverty seen, but no one ever sees it.

Many come and go from the reservations, destitute and impoverished. Alcoholism is a big enemy of ours, the "fire water" that has destroyed so many of our people.

We have demanded restitution to ears that do not hear nor care to hear.

What can we do? The policies of the government in the USA have always been aimed at annihilation I believe personally.

Many think that if you are "Indian" you have a lot of money now because your tribe might have a casino somewhere. This is a ridiculous claim as many cannot identify themselves to be members of a tribe to even get some restitution via casino revenues.

My worry now is that many of the reservation lands have oil reserves on them. The treaty laws have a nice big fat hole in them that allows during the case of a National Emergency to reclaim these lands that were viewed as useless when the treaties were written. The tribes themselves find themselves often powerless have no good nor honest lawyers to represent them. I have many fears.

I have no answers for you except I continue to fight for our people and I will do this until I can fight no more forever.

:kick: and nominated ...

[hardrainfallin]

59. two words: genocide and denial. eom

[FreedomAngel82]

89. Oh yes

So true sadly. :(

[lizziegrace]

18. Welcome to DU from another newbie

I have asked myself the same questions. No, I'm not native american. My daughter and I have been working with a group that sponsors children at Pine Ridge for two years now. I don't understand why this issue has been put at the bottom of the priority list for so many years.

I have some specific questions regarding Pine Ridge. Would you consider sending me a private message?

Thank you and again, welcome!

[FreedomAngel82]

91. Don't forget what happened earlier this year

with the Columbine like suicide ordeal with the young boy. He was teased and everything and I don't remember George Bush ever saying anything about it until a few days later if he did (sorry I don't remember if he did or not). And it was hardly on the news as well. :( It was like it never happened.

[cynatnite]

19. Realistically speaking...you will never get the stolen land back

Don't take this as a sign of disrespect. It's reality we're living with and as much as I would love to turn back the clock and undue the horrors of the past, it just won't happen.

A tribe in Maine sued for their land rights. They believed they were due 60% of the land and rightly so from what I've read. Rather than get their land back, the government settled with them. As a result, they gave up some of their rights.

Also, many tribes still sell portions of their land to non-indians.

Getting the land back just won't happen. There is nothing I or anyone else, no matter their party affiliation, can say that will satisfy those who wish to regain the land which was stolen.

Many here believe our nation is doomed anyway because of the leadership this country currently has. I'm not sure what you mean by this.

And so you will know I'm not some idiotic white, my husband is part blackfoot sioux. We lived for three years on the Salish/Kootenai Res. in Montana and went to the small college there in Pablo, MT.

www.umaine.edu/mcsc/mpr/Vol13No1/4brimleyFIN.pdf

Here's an interesting article you might want to check out.

[hardrainfallin]

61. well, there's always the option of BUYING it back, and that's exactly

what Nader's former running mate, Winona LaDuke, is doing with her White Earth Land Recovery PRoject.

DU ers who can't find it in their hearts and pockets to make outright donations to Indian efforts and causes might want to consider at least PURCHASING products from La Duke's "Native Harvest" store...

available on line at

http://ww2.nativeharvest.com/index1.asp

[progressoid]

70. Maybe the Interior Dept could cough up the $176 Billion they owe Natives!

http://motherjones.com/news/feature/2005/09/accounting_coup.html

[hardrainfallin]

71. by that logic, don't bother donating to red cross, let FEMA take

care of it.

don't bother advocating for rebuilding contracts to go to native New Orleaneans and locals, let FEMA take care of it.
:sarcasm:

[rosesaylavee]

20. I agree.

I recommend that anyone who has not visited a reservation - do so.

This is one part of our American History that seldom gets into our children's history books and it is one - if not the- most unpleasant.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the American Government has a long history of reneging on or ignoring every treaty ever made with any tribe here?

Kicked and nominated.

[Dez]

22. yes, the Americans broke all the treaties

but thats just the American way! Immenent Domain.. isn't that what they call it?"Americans feel they have a right to whatever they want.. that's what started this country, it's sooo American.

[cynatnite]

24. Not recently...

Given the horrible history the government won't...but, well since bush and his cronies are running it, you never know.

People have no stomach for it anymore. I think it's also why there is so little done in educating people about this part of our history. For many, if they ignore it, it doesn't exist.

[donsu]

21. kicking - I'd vote to give the land back, if we had unriggable voting

and I'd trust your care of the earth

but we have to get rid of the bloody criminal bushgang first

[AlienGirl]

124. Something people *can* do

Someday I may inherit an acre of land that once belonged to a Native nation. If so, I'll give it back. I'd request that my relatives just will it back to the original owners, but they're Repubs and wouldn't.

My acre or so won't do much, but if lots of people similarly "unsettled" themselves, it could make a difference...

Tucker

[nofurylike]

140. yes. eom

[Helga Scow Stern]

23. Thank you. Indian Country Today is the only national newspaper

I subscribe to, because I feel it has a perspective we can't afford to lose.

The LA Times said before the last California election that the Indian gaming industry was the most powerful lobby in the state. Somehow that doesn't ring true.

[Waya]

167. You might want to make yourself familiar with....

.....Indian Country Today. The owner , Ray Arthur Halbritter, makes it his Life's work to exploit his own people. Set himself up as a Dictator of sorts. I won't go into all the details, since it would take an enormous amount of time and space to post everything he has done. But he is throwing people off the 32 acre Rez, has his Goons (tribal police which, by the way, aren't deputized) patroling and harrassing, etc. He is a thug - and he didn't even aquire 'Indian Country Today' legally from Tim Giago (got this from Tim Giago himself. Halbritter, with the help of a string of Lawyers, pulled a fast one to avoid paying the entire amount. The man is a thug - and I wouldn't take his paper for free. No way am I shoving more money at him.





If you want to get a taste of what Halbritter is really like try here:

http://oneidasfordemocracy.org/

[madokie]

25. I have been saying as long as I can remember

The biggest American tragedy is the loss of our native customs. You will find you will be welcomed with open arms and minds here. Many happy posts.

[tlsmith1963]

26. I Work on a Reservation

At one of the casinos. I have been treated much better as a worker than at one of those "corporate" places run by rich white guys. The tribe thinks it's important that we get decent health care. They aren't trying to get rid of it like at other places. It's not a perfect place to work (what is?), but it's a lot better than at other places I have worked.

Tammy

[rosesaylavee]

27. Iktomiwicasa, can you recommend a course of action?

[meganmonkey]

28. I appreciate your perspective - and you are right

The native people of this land have been much better caregivers than any of the bastards in washington.

I think maybe it is hard for 'mainstream' society to really understand what it took to make this country what it is today - we read a little in history books but most people have no real concept that there were people here before the europeans landed, there were lots of people and cultures and civilization. They don't realize that OUR ancestors almost completely decimated the human population of this continent. In general, people don't even understand how young the USA is, and that almost every single one of us is 'from' somewhere else. When I hear the anti-immigration rhetoric it boggles my mind. So many people have NO sense of history at all, no sense of time.

(I recommend everyone read Howard Zinn's 'People's History of the US'!!!)

But you are right about Bush, and if anyone has the potential to help in this situation it is the democrats.

I live in an area that was apparently occupied as a meeting place for several tribes in SE Michigan. I would gladly give my land for the rightful keeper. I mean that from my heart, for what it's worth.

Please let us know what we can do to help. Sometimes we are 'all talk and no action', and it helps when there are specific tasks we can do, something concrete.

Welcome to DU!

Peace.

[Mabus]

29. Aho

I am also native, Southern Arapaho. While I do not disagree with what you have said I want to add that we also have to take responsibility for what is going on. Our own tribal leaders have sold us out time & time again and until we get control of our own tribal councils we're screwed. Coming from Pine Ridge I'm sure you're more aware of tribal council corruption - than most will ever be - and know how this corruption can trickle down and affect the effectiveness of tribal run programs. Talk about cronyism.

FYI, the number of native delegates to the Democratic National convention last year was the largest and we were finally allowed at the platform table. It may not seem like much but there have been some inroads within the Democratic party, much more than you will ever see from the Republicans. So don't give up on the Democratic party instead become an active member of it. Take control of your local precincts and you can make a difference.

Like you, I don't say any of this to make enemies, to anger or to alienate anyone but we've seen we can't rely on others to speak for us. We need to make our presence known and push to make our issues a priority. I regularly call my representatives at all levels to remind them of Indian issues and how proposed legislation affects us. I will keep fighting for our sovereignty and our sovereign rights until the day I die.

[OnionPatch]

226. I live near lots of reservations

but I don't see any Indians at any of the Dem meetings, etc. We invite the council members to come and speak about legislation which we always support on whichever side we perceive to be pro-Indian, but other than that, I don't see or hear anything from them. I agree that it might help to start getting involved in the local Democratic party. We WANT your input. At least all of the rank and file Dems I know do.

I think most of us on the left, regardless of our skin color or ethnicity, are feeling pretty powerless in the face of this administration and the corporate powers-that-be. The world is full of assholes and they sure seem to be the ones running everything, but there are many people who care and desperately want to make things better for all Americans, and Indians especially because of all the wrongs that have been done to them. There's no way we could ever make up for what has been done to you, but there are a lot of people, myself included that would do whatever we could if we only knew what that was. I'm guessing most people just aren't aware of the issues. I can't speak for the actual politicians, tho.

[Iktomiwicasa]

227. You

have made some good points.

One of the problems in interfacing with your political system is one of culture. For one, many traditionals do not trust the americian political process, and are suspicious of anything that politicians are up to, and stay away. Two, for many of our cultures, we vote *no* by abstaining....only those who are in agreement tend to cast a vote. It doesn't work well with your system. and we are trying to educate people that it is important to vote on any issue that affects them, whether they agree or not.

[OnionPatch]

228. How does that work?

Staying home to vote no, I mean. Do they need a certain number of "yes" votes to pass things? If so, you're right that it doesn't fit in well in the current US political system; The ones who stay home relinquish their say-so in the matter. I think I like your system better!

If you consider the number of Americans who don't vote, it seems Indians aren't alone when it comes to not trusting the American political system! I don't think many of us do. I wish I knew the answers but the only ones I've come up with are to get involved and try to change things from the bottom up.

[Mabus]

233. You should go to them

Seriously, don't invite them - go to where they are. Inviting people to speak is great but until you actually go where Indians are, see how the communities are run, who is in charge and what the problems are any attempt by outsiders feels like lip service. In order to reach Indians you have to go where they are.

You have to understand that even today a lot of what goes on in Indian communities stays in Indian communities. Close to fifteen years ago when I was doing some volunteer work for the local battered women's shelter I got asked why Indian women didn't use the shelter's services as much as others. I told them that Indians are very self-reliant. They're afraid if they go to shelters it will invite more governmental intrusion into their lives. I also reminded them that the people they were trying to reach out to were very aware of federal legislation like ICWA because some had relatives whose families were torn apart because of it. The truth is that we take care of our own. Even when I was voluntering at at the battered women's shelter I still took in other Native women (and sometimes kids) because they/we don't trust the government.

See, one of the biggest problems is that our cultures are different. They are different from the dominant culture and Indian cultures differ from one another. We are not all the same. Our cultures are not as homogeneous as the rest of the surrounding cultures that we live in day-to-day. Yet, the majority of Americans think "American Indian" and have their own preconceived notions about what Indians are like and how we react.

I can't tell you how lonely it feels sometimes not being able to turn to the next person next to me and have them understand how I feel, how I see the world and how the world treats me because of my skin color. Do you know how difficult it is to go to the average employer or teacher and explain to them that your annual Sun Dance is coming up and you need at least ten days off to practice your religion? If they've even heard of the ceremony they usually think about those Richard Harris movies from the late 70's/early 80's and begin to think I'm barbaric. They don't understand. And if they don't try to understand the difference between a Hollywood portrayal and a real Indian ceremony I can't even begin to tell them about the delicacies we prepare and eat. How can explain to them that part of the reason I want two weeks off is because we construction our shelters when we get to the ceremony grounds. Yes, each year we build our clan's community center (actually a small shelter where we cook for the entire clan and any and all visitors who drop by). I've had people ask me what my totem animal is. When I tell them I'm a plains Indian they don't get it. We aren't all the same!


I've had well-being people try to hand me a drum or invite me to drumming ceremonies. Hey, women in my tribe do not drum. Don't even try to hand me one and please do not have women drumming near me. I live the traditions that were taught to me by my mother and other female relatives. These traditions have lived because we aren't a stagnant people. We adapt and adopt but there are some things that we don't have reason to change because that isn't our role. If you think about it in terms of yin-yang, the masculine-feminine dichtomy, there are things that the Creator needed the men to do and there are somethings that only women can do and both energies are needed to make our world complete. About gays, we had puberty ceremonies where an individual affirmed their life's path and weren't vilified for it.

We grow up being told to be proud of who we are, yet we are bombarded with images of the American Indians as cartoon characters on par with the era of "Blackface". Yep, all my ancestors did all day was sit on ridges and wait for the white people to travel through. Yet, when an institution like the NCAA steps up and declares these cartoonish mascots they are chided by people who have no fucking clue and backdown. I can't tell you the number of people, who in this day and age, still think I want to be called "Tonto" or "Pocohantas" it is simply disgusting. My brothers are all get called "Chief", usually by complete strangers!

There are fewer than 10K of my people left. Excuse, there are fewer than 10K of my people recognized by the federal government as existing. See, I have to prove my lineage to get a CDIB (Certified Degree of Indian Blood) so I can qualify for things like educational grants. To "qualify" as an Indian I have to have a least 1/4 blood quantum as prescribed by the 1930's boilerplate constitutions adopted by many tribes. Guess what? I'm part Northern Arapahoe, Southern Arapaho, Southern Cheyenee and Crow - so although I've got more than half of Indian blood line (since I've got Indian blood from both mom and dad) I am only identified as Southern Arapaho. On the otherhand, since I've got a Buffalo Soldier (half black/half Crow) in my line I could also claim to be black and not have to show proof.

Let's face it, the government wants us to go away, to die off because when we do guess who is in line to get vast amounts of tribally held lands - the government. Guess where there are huge amounts of oil, uranium and other natural resources are - they are under Indian land. Where do farmers want to graze their cattle? On Indian land. Where are they damming rivers for hydroelectric purposes to the detriment of fishing for Native People? Along Indian lands. The United States government declared my religion illegal in the 1880's. We had to hide our religious practices until they were partially restored by an act of Congress in 1977. I could go on and on and on. So in short, there are so many issues that face Indian people that inviting them to discuss the lastest fashionable cause rings so hollow. Why not come to where we are and ask us what we think needs to be done?


Sorry to rail on you.

[Iktomiwicasa]

234. Only

Horses and dogs should have to have pedigree papers. The government wants to use this to eventually say that there are no more indians. They claim it is so that they don't spend our wonderful benefits on non-indians, but the real reason is so they can eventually do away with us and take what little we have left. My people don't need the government to tell us who is or is not one of us.

[OnionPatch]

235. Thanks for the post

That was a enlightening read. I enjoyed hearing your perspective and even your "railing!"

I'm just a member of the club I mentioned and don't have much to do with scheduling speakers or any of the more "official" stuff, but going and talking to the people is an idea I will pass along to those who do. From reading this post, it sounds like many of you do not trust the council members too much. Yet these are the people who end up speaking at our club, etc. When you say, "Go talk to the people" what, exactly, do you mean? How does one bypass these council guys to talk directly to the "people" unless they are invited? Specifically, how would you do it? We had a voter registration booth at the Pow Wow last year and I was able to talk to a lot of people and hear a little of their political perspective but for the most part they were, like you said, suspicious of politics.

You talk about "fashionable" issues. It sounds to me that you're saying many of the left's issues are not relevant to Indians. But when you divide a country into only two political groups, unfortunately, many issues are going to seem "fashionable" to someone or some group. I can understand the frustration. Many of my own pet-issues are not addressed as much as I would like. (Although I recognize they aren't nearly as dire as yours.) But there are general issues that are so important to all of us who live in this country. Environmental issues are the main example I can think of. I would think it would be extremely important to Indians everywhere that they have a president and representatives who are much, much less friendly to all these mining/drilling groups, etc. that you mentioned, and yet from what I heard, the Indian vote was not very high in our area on the last election. The saddest part is that the numbers are such here, that if they actually voted, this might no longer be a GOP-controlled area! And the bigger picture would be one less Republican in congress voting to give away your land to the miners and oil companies and a president who is much less likely to do their bidding. I guess it's just hard for me to understand the reluctance of natives to get involved if only for these broader issues. Thanks for enlightening me (and anyone reading this) about some of the reasons for this.

[Iktomiwicasa]

236. The whole point

I've been trying to make with this thread....

"And the bigger picture would be one less Republican in congress voting to give away your land to the miners and oil companies and a president who is much less likely to do their bidding."

...is that it just ain't the republicans. Democratic congresses and administrations do the same crap. That's what is so frustrating.

[OnionPatch]

237. Well, I guess

many of us don't know about these instances then, because from what I see, the only ones who fight against those who want to grab up all the land and foul up the resources are Democrats and Greens. Democrats are certainly much better on environmental issues in general than Republicans. I'm sure there are Democratic politicians out there that are bought by these special interests but I don't think they would be the kind that would get a lot of support from people on this board. Am I saying you should at least choose between the lesser of the two evils? Well, I guess most of us who are at all involved in politics are doing just that. What is our other choice?

I'll admit right here I am not up on tribal issues. You're the first Indian I have ever even had a conversation about it with. The information has not been out there where I've seen it and I don't keep my head in the sand. The point I was trying to make is that the rank and file Dems I know would never stand with those who want to take your land from you. So maybe the question then is "How do you get the politicians to address these issues?" That's the million dollar question for most of us here about many issues and I guess that's the point I was trying to make.

Maybe your point will hit home with someone on this board who is an actual politician, but the only thing the rest of us can do is get informed and bitch about it. Perhaps you can inform us of the specific legislation, etc. and the politicians involved.

[Iktomiwicasa]

238. I will post more on this

in the future on other threads. NVMojo in a post below has a really good example that is current. Do a search on the Ruby Valley treaty and land settlement. Sen. Reid of Nevada roto-rootered the western shoshone to protect the interests of his democrat constituents. I would say that they are rank and file.

[OnionPatch]

239. Well, I only said

the rank and file that I know. Maybe Nevada Dems are a lot different than what I'm used to.

Thanks for the info, though. I'll start googling. I'm all for kicking any of the SOBs out that screw you over, Dem or not.

[ellie]

30. Welcome

It is long past time that treaties and land claims were honored. I live in Ohio and have Republican reps (people I didn't vote for), but when I lived in Michigan, my husband and I routinely wrote our Democratic reps and senators. What did I hear back from them?

If these treaty issues come up in the legislature then we will look into it.

What does that mean? They won't make a move until someone else does? This is unacceptable. The Democratic party has been hijacked by corporatists. I won't give up, especially in pressuring public officials by writing to release Leonard Peltier. I am sorry that I have no answers for you, but I wanted you to know that you aren't alone.

[Iktomiwicasa]

47. Speaking of

Leonard Peltier, Bill Clinton said he would free him. He never did. :-(

[CountAllVotes]

51. yeah I remember that

and yeah it made me angry. Another reason I am not a big fan of the "Big Dog". Big Dog alright ...

I better not say more for I might get "deleted" for making a negative remark about Bill Clinton. I voted for him yes, but I really viewed him to be the lesser of two evils.

What a great choices we have alright, just great. Bunch of liars, that is what they ALL are I tend to think. :(

[walldude]

72. That was when I gave up on Clinton

I get flamed alot for it but oh well.

If it were up to me all treaties would be restored all land returned and then maybe we could get some lessons on how to behave as human beings.

Welcome to DU...

[Selatius]

80. If you get flamed, I'll back you up

We both have mutual agreement with Bill Clinton. His free trade policies are just devastating American working men and women. It's something I could not support, nor could I support the status quo he helped to maintain as far as Native American relations go.

[newspeak]

84. I second the back up

The trade agreements to me were devastating, not bringing the truth out on Iran-Contra BCCI and not pardoning Leonard Peltier. Second election, I voted for Winona LaDuke, not really Ralph, but Winona.

[newspeak]

73. yes, I was disappointed

I was on the walk for two days for Leonard Peltier. We started with a sunrise ceremony at alacatraz. There were people from all around the world-Buddhist monks and nuns. There were Australians and Europeans there who knew more about Native American Past and present history than most Americans. I also was very disappointed that Leonard Peltier was not freed. And about US government treaties, tthey have not kept one treaty. Of course the walk was across the country to Washington-I wished I could have gone all of the way. Your from Pineridge? My friend was a nurse at Pine Ridge. I was going to the 25th anniversary of wounded knee, but got snowed out!!!!!! Yes, the treaties should be honored, and I dream that all native peoples come fully together without prejudice or dissension of one another. So that all stand united in solidarity.

[ellie]

127. From what I understand,

500 FBI agents goostepped in formation in D.C. to protest Leonard being pardoned.

[Fox Mulder]

31. I agree with you.

I'm part Native American and I'd love to see them get their land back.

But realistically, it's not going to happen. The current Democrats in office are almost no different than the Republicans.

Sad, really.

[txaslftist]

33. We are a minority, opposition party, besieged and under fire.

We'd like to help you, but shouldn't you be asking the people who actually have a say in government?

Sadly, that ain't us.

[DarkTirade]

34. I wonder

how that would work for people who are part native american.
I probably couldn't get anything, as far as I can tell, anyone from my dad's side of the family who could prove that I'm a quarter is dead or out of contact with me, but oh well. :)

[me b zola]

35. Welcome to DU, Iktomiwicasa

Come and join our voice is my answer to you.

The Democratic Party has historically been the Party that speaks for the people. Our record, though, is not without many flaws and is very slow in acting.

In the 1920's the fight for the civil rights of African Americans was put on the back burner because it was said that women could not secure equal citizenship if we pushed for too much at once. That was tragic. Then, finally, the fight for the civil rights for African Americans in the 1950's & 1960's came to fruition. Gay Americans still do not have the same protections under the law as the rest of us, and we are being told that the country is not ready for that change.

Right now we little people in the Democratic Party are fighting to save the Party. Corporate interests and I suspect republicans themselves, have infiltrated our Party so that it no longer fights for us but rather against us. The clock has been turned back on all of our rights as citizens. As we speak voting rights are under assault. Women's rights are under assault. Hate crimes against all minorities are on the rise. New political prisoners are being taken for simply speaking out against the tyranny that has taken power in Washington DC.

The truth is that right now we are fairly powerless. Until we can take back our Party, there will be no voice that will speak our concerns. Come, add your voice to ours to demand that we elect people who will serve us. Add your voice to ours so that your fight becomes our fight.

Come, join us. :hi:

[Lindsay]

37. Welcome to DU, Iktomiwicasa.

I hope that the more voices we join together, the louder our messages will be heard by those in power. We need first to get the right wing out of office, though.

[Iktomiwicasa]

41. Some good

replies here.

Tribal councils were mentioned as one of the problems. Indeed they are. To most americans, they sound like a good thing, nice and democratic and all. In reality, they are a form of government forced upon us by the federal government and mandated by law, and almost always they are not representive of traditionalist people. Council members are NOT our chiefs. In many cases, councils are corrupt...members that run do the bidding of the government. In some cases, and it has happened here, when a traditionalist gets elected to the council and advocates for the people instead of the federal government, the government has declared the election "invalid" and removed the person from office. We would like to be free to choose our own form of government, and many of us would like to see a return to our traditional system of chiefs. We still have our chiefs, they are the real leaders of traditional people, they lead without authority, simply because their wisdom, judgement, and experience is proven. We should be free to have that way as our form of government, after all, we are supposed to be sovereign.

Indian people vote democrat in overwhelming numbers, but traditionals are wary of the far left. We are not "liberals" in the common mainstream usage of that term. We are in reality a pretty conservative people.....not in the neo-con sense of that word, but you can say we are "old fashioned" which is a good thing. We are very strong second ammendment supporters, from our spiritual teachings we generally disapprove of abortion (though we don't seek to impose our ways on others), we are suspicious of "newagers" who have appropriated and profaned our spiritual ways. On the other hand, we traditionals are still tribal and communal....accumulating many material goods isn't that important. Sharing is one of our important values......one that is certainly under attack as mainstream america keeps creeping in.

[nofurylike]

147. murkin "conservative" is wanting to go back to white traditions, which

are exact opposite what you seek and work for.

liberal includes the cherishing of diversity and economic equality.


but i must beg to differ on what you say of abortion, in reference to tradition.
there are many (probably all, no?) tribes which have always practiced the use of botanical abortifacients as hygene and/or outright birth control.

and

it has been agreed by most of the world's first/indigenous peoples that any and all traditions which do not support sex equality are unacceptable.
the right to reproductive self-determination is one of those issues addressed.


peace

[Iktomiwicasa]

150. Sorry...

...but I know what I'm talking about. Aborting a child is something that was practiced only rarely, out of the direst of need. Not something that is taken so casual like it is in todays world.

[nofurylike]

154. it is *never* "casual." but it is practiced, and was practiced. maybe

less in your tribe.

i know what i am talking about.


i wish you well! i will do all i possibly can, all of my life. thank you so much for coming to confront us with what we do truly need to be confronted with.


peace

[Cats Against Frist]

162. If you don't believe in forcing your opinion about abortion on others

that IS the Democratic position -- so please support it. You can be against abortion, and vote for "pro-choice" politicians -- remember -- it's "pro-CHOICE" not "pro-abortion."

[faithnotgreed]

38. im so glad youre here and demanding action

we stand with you friend
let us know how we can help

[blindpig]

39. bide your time

and don't expect much from any who are invested in the dominate culture. Our civilization is soon to hit the wall. Cultivate the old ways, they are the best. That your people have survived is proof of your strength. A little longer and I think you'll be able to take back what you wish.

I wish you well, your people had(have?) respect for the land and our fellow creatures that we whites have forgotten long ago. It would have been better for this land that we call America if we had stayed home.

[Iktomiwicasa]

42. Some of you

may have heard of a Change. The Re-making of Mother Earth. This is something that our spiritual leaders have prophecied. Our medicine men today say that time is close at hand, and that the dominant culture is gonna wipe itself out. I believe them.

[CountAllVotes]

44. yes so do I

Are you familiar with the book "The Quest" by Tom Brown. "Grandfather" in this book (c. 1920) predicted most of what we are seeing today.

The time is near to the end.

That is why my people, the Hopi's in Arizona have a secular society that cannot be touched by the white man. They are hulled up in their caves high on the cliffs. The elders warned of the final stages we are now seeing as well about 15 years ago.

[anarch]

116. I think this may have already begun n/t

[nofurylike]

139. yes. it is happening. sadly, we have failed, and it must happen. eom

[Desertrose]

142. Maybe it all needs to be wiped out....

maybe its the only way...a giant sweatlodge for Mother Earth.....

What does this country have to be proud of? First the red people, then the black people and now the giant machine at the top is eating all the people and using all the resources Mother earth has created for ALL the people.

As the Hopi say ...koyaanisqatsii...life out of balance....

Greed is toppling everyone...those who listen to the Mother will know and be OK. Maybe Creator will return what belongs to those who are the earth keepers...

So many prophecies...I believe we are already in them.

Thank you Iktomiwicasa, thank you. I do agree that there is little difference between the dems and repubs in so many ways.They are all ruled by power and greed and all it takes is one hurricane, one earthquake or one volcano and they are all equal.

I wish I thought the "leaders" would do something about it...they don't care beyond thier own lives. How can you make someone care who doesn't?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

40. I fear our political leaders...

will never take this issue seriously, even though many of us demand they do so. Shit, they didn't listen to the peoples demands about Iraq -- I have not much confidence they will do squat about righting these wrongs.

Being a believer in karma, I think our country's bloody and abusive beginnings in theft, genocide, and slavery will continue to impact us until things are made right. And for the native peoples, be that the return of lands everywhere practical or the remuneration for those lands, I don't see the country cleaning its karmic slate until it is done.

My only recent hope for native peoples has been the push in US courts for honoring the treatries that were broken and the invoking of religious freedom in land protection.

I think the native movement of the 70s needs to be seriously reinvigorated and expanded. Native presence in the wider culture is all but nonexistant -- and that badly needs to chance, because when you are invisible, you are easy to ignore.

Thanks for the reminder ---

[rniel]

43. So true

I'm not all glowy eyed and bushy tailed at democrats, but still call myself liberal cause that's what I am. I think the whole system of government is corrupt. Sometimes doing the right thing is the unpopular thing and will make you get less votes. Of course they won't go for that, the #1 thing for all politicians is getting elected. It has nothing to do with justice or honoring promises.

[Iktomiwicasa]

46. Bingo

rniel,that's the source of the problem....

[knowbody0]

45. welcome Iktomiwicasa

we need to band together as people to set things right. corruption everywhere makes this nation go round and round to nowhere begetting nonsense and destruction.

[Cha]

48. Damn Good Question and I'm

glad you asked it! I don't have an answer for that or for the reason why a lot of our dems have been the bushwa enablers over the last 5 years.

Welcome to DU, Iktomiwicasa, and I hope you get your answer and get it resolved in our future.

Name one country that hasn't treated the indigenous Peoples like Shit!

I'm not excusing the good ol' USA..I'm Pissed at all aggression!

[Nictuku]

49. Here is one thing we can do... Spread the word of these current injustices

I've been following these stories fairly closely, let me give some background:

I've lost the link where I found the following article, but it pretty much enraged me when I read it:

****************************************
American Indians Demand an End to Theft and Broken Promises

by Brian Awehali, Publications Manager

After taking most of their land and reducing their population by almost 90% over the past 150 years, the U.S. government set up a bank for Native Americans. A special bank. A bank that let them keep using Indian land, taking in money, never issuing a statement or tracking how much money it has, rarely paying out any money at all, and refusing to provide any information about the money it manages.

Welcome to the heart of the landmark Individual Indian Monies (IIM) trust reform case. It’s the largest class action lawsuit ever lodged against the federal government. It’s possibly the most important piece of legislation affecting Native America today, and the government is losing badly, but the story garners almost no media coverage, and although public outcry and demand for justice is crucial, few people even know about the case.

I first became interested in the “Indian Trust” case in 2001. As someone of mixed Cherokee-Irish ancestry, and as a member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, I grew up hearing stories about relatives with “Indian” land. And though I never lived on a reservation, you can’t live in Oklahoma without seeing firsthand the harsh economic realities of Native America (as well as the vibrancy and resilience of Native culture.) As Circle of Life’s new Publications Manager, I wanted our activist audience to know about this case and what it represents.

Originally filed in 1996 by Elouise Cobell, a member of the Blackfeet tribe, the heart of the case involves more than 100 years of revenues generated by government leases on Indian land held “in trust” for mining, grazing, timber, oil and gas exploration and other uses.

The Departments of the Interior and Treasury and the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA), say they’ve misplaced or can’t account for more than $100 billion in Indian land revenues.

"I've never seen more egregious conduct by the federal government," said Royce C. Lamberth, the federal judge overseeing the case. In one ruling, Lamberth also wrote that "the results of Interior's failure to take its trust responsibilities seriously are plain today...Although they are citizens of the greatest and most prosperous nation in the world today, the beneficiaries of the IIM trust live under conditions that would not be alien to citizens of the poorest Third World nations. Many of them live in abject poverty."
*********************************************

You lose a case in court, and don't like the results?, throw out the Judge??? WTF?? -- see this next article :

**********************************************
Monday August 15, 2005

EFFORT TO REMOVE JUDGE LAMBERTH FROM TRUST CASE OPPOSED

WASHINGTON -- Lawyers for the Indian plaintiffs
in the Cobell versus Norton lawsuit over the
federal government's mismanagement of Indian
Trust accounts said they will vigorously resist
the government's efforts to remove the lawsuit
from U.S. District Judge Royce C. Lamberth.

Lead attorney Dennis M. Gingold said: "The
government's problem is not the judge. Judge
Lamberth, an appointee of President Ronald
Reagan, has been repeatedly upheld by the Court
of Appeals on every merit issue in this case.

"The government's problem is the District Court
making them account for 100 plus years of bad
facts, its pattern of unethical behavior, and
its persistent strategy of diversion, delay, and
obstruction -- of which this is only the most
recent example."
***************************************************

And then, just from today (and I do have the web source, so will post only a portion of the article)

http://www.indiantrust.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.ViewDetail&PressRelease_id=143&Month=9&Year=2005

GOVERNMENT CAUGHT DESTROYING MORE INDIAN RECORDS IN VIOLATION OF COURT ORDERS

At the same time that the Interior Department is bragging to Congress about its Indian Trust accounting plan, the National Archives and Records Administration reports ongoing destruction of Bureau of Indian Affairs accounting records only a few blocks from the federal courthouse in Washington.

*****************

Thanks to www.whatreallyhappened.com for bringing this article to my attention. Here are their comments:

Here is a recap:
Since the late 19th century, many original reservation lands were broken up into parcels, and along with their own private parcels, the American Indians retained the mineral and timber rights to what had been the reservation lands, with the US Government acting as trustee. But the American Indians had a hard time getting their funds from the trust, and in 1996 filed a class action lawsuit. The subsequent trial has revealed that billions (with a "b") of dollars of American Indian money are missing, and worse, the US Government has been destroying records to conceal just where that money went and how it was stolen. Two Clinton-era Cabinet members were charged with contempt of court for refusing to provide documentation to the courts. The court is trying to work out a settlement, but the US Government is still trying to obfuscate the matter, claiming that the American Indians are not really owed all that much money and as this article shows, the US Government is still trying to eradicate all the records of the matter.

While small independent newspapers have given this story some coverage, it has yet to be reported in depth on the major networks.
************************************************

And there it is, one (small) thing that we can all do to help right this wrong, and that is blast this story to the Media. It is disgusting, disgraceful, and makes me ashamed to call myself 'American'.

Democrats, Republican's alike, historically, make little difference. We need to STAND FOR TRUTH before it is too late.

Blast the truth of this injustice to the Four Directions for all to hear. Tell your friends. Bring this issue to the front of our conscientiousness, and shame those responsible.

[Jokinomx]

50. Welcome to the Democratic Underground......

Thank you for your post Iktomiwicasa. I don't have any answers. I have always felt our country has never been honest or fair when dealing with Native Americans. Your absolutely correct that we can have no honor as long as we continue to ignore the Human Rights of those who's land we took.

Again... Welcome to the D.U... I hope that you continue voicing your thoughts here. I will look forward to reading them.

:toast:

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. Welcome to DU *Wave*

[Iktomiwicasa]

55. By way of analogy....

... I'll try to illustrate how I view the dems vs. repubs in dealing with native issues.

Scenario A: Bill has $10,000.00. Joe comes along and steals $9,950.00. After Bill and Joe die, Joe Jr. still has the $9500.00, plus all the interst that he and his father earned off of it. Joe Jr. goes to Bill Jr. and offers to return to Bill Jr. $50.00, and says "Look how much I care about you".

Scenario B: Bill has $10,000.00. Joe comes along and steals $9,950.00. After Bill and Joe die, Joe Jr. still has the $9500.00, plus all the interst that he and his father earned off of it. Joe Jr. goes to Bill Jr. and tries to take the remaining $50.00, saying "I can use that $50.00 in a better and wiser way than you".

Scenario A are the democrats, and scenario B are the republicans.

[mandyky]

53. We have a Native American Group

but it requires a star to participate (Groups in general).

[Iktomiwicasa]

56. That's really funny.....

poor indians have to contribute money to participate in a native group. LOL.

[hardrainfallin]

63. I wonder how much activity there is on the "NAG"? Is it worth coughing

up the change?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Iktomiwicasa]

66. I looked

at that group, the majority of the people I saw posting over there "had a great great grandmother" who was indian. Not that there aren't legit natives there, but there are a fair amount of wannabes.

[hardrainfallin]

68. hey, why do you think everybody's being so nice to you? You're the

only REAL Indian that's been sighted in these parts for a while.

Can we see your CDIB, pls?

:hide:

[mandyky]

155. People being proud of part of their heritage

doesn't make them a wannabe.

No, many Eastern tribes were "assimilated" and few were raised in "the culture". Not all Rez Indians subscribe to "traditional Native ways". Many were taken from their parents and raised in "christian" foster homes where they (whites) hoped the "Indian in them" could be killed. I have a Hopi friend (about 65) that had that happen to his family.

I look white, but I feel anything but white. I identify more with Black people in this country, many times. It doesn't mean I wanna be black. I have explored Native ways, I am proud of my heritage, but Western Natives, especially, seem to denigrate people with great grandmas who were native.

I am Mohawk Iroquois, part of me. I hate what has happened to Native Americans, but there are some corrupt tribal elders more interested in opening casinos than making the US govt FINALLY live up to ONE of the many treaties they made with THE PEOPLE. What the US govt has done to THE PEOPLE is shameful, but change starts in your community.
Is your community working with any Dems to get issues you mentioned addressed? We, on DU, are not the Party per se. I hope you will inform us of what we can specifically do to help.

[nofurylike]

143. as do poor disabled in the disability group, and so on. many here are

opposed to the star-class system.
but also know that many DUers sponsor others for stars, and anyone who asks usually has one suddenly appear. and many do not even have to ask, as you have seen.

if you have the time and energy, please do add your letter to the admins on this wrongdoing. might also on the issue of "indian mascot" avatars.

that goes for all who feel similarly, please!


peace

[Mandate My Ass]

54. legitimate question. no legit answer

Your party is more than willing to be an advocate to the Palestinians, to black people, and to most any other oppressed people in the world, but you run from us. Why?

I will tell you why. It is because it is easier and more comfortable to ask someone else to give something up than it is to give it up yourselves. Restoring land claims would mean plenty of democratic voters might lose land, homes, businesses.

You've answered your own question perfectly correctly. We the people don't exist anymore and our government is currently dismantling our rights as landowners, homeowners, workers, consumers, patients, and citizens at an increasingly brisk pace, dem and republican alike. I don't place the blame entirely on the corrupt regime we have now, not anymore. We the people didn't lift a finger to do the right thing for your people while there was still time and we've selectively blinded ourselves to other injustices carried out in our names and just as indiscriminately advocated for certain people and causes as long as it didn't really cost us anything. We're all in the same boat now and we are doomed.

After the last presidential election there was talk here of the perceived benefit of dumping women's and gay rights to win more elections. The tent, and whom it covers, is getting smaller by the day.

Welcome.

[bigwillq]

62. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[stickdog]

64. Agreed.

All I can say is that many here are working to change the Democratic Party.

65. does your name mean spiderman?

I don't follow law cases, but made note recently that judge Lamberth appointed by the US government in indian cases, was just taken off of his job by the justice department because he was considered an activist and making trouble.

I know here in Wisconsin, the indians feel they are getting some kind of economic foothold with their casinos, and hope to build on their successes, but are afraid government will ruin it for them again.

[Iktomiwicasa]

67. yup

[newspeak]

75. industrial hemp

I gave my friend who lived at Pine Ridge some books on industrial hemp because she told me some were interested in pursuing it as a crop. Is it true the BIA gave it's approval, then the DEA came in after it was grown and destroyed the crop?

[Iktomiwicasa]

82. No hemp...

... is being grown. The inJustice Dept. has a civil injuction in effect. If we grow it, we won't go to jail for cultivation of drugs, but for contempt of court. It's a dead issue for now.

[newspeak]

88. It could have been a lucrative crop for the reservation

What all reservations need is complete sovereignty from all federal interference. Which reminds of a story about twenty years ago, when I was in school. Another student and I had an argument about reservation sovereignty, he said they had total sovereignty and I said they didn't. So I called the BIA and asked. The man who answered was a real ASS-he said of course they don't have sovereignty they lost. I told him how could they lose, when the government fed them a bunch of broken treaties or lies? And why did the government do that, to keep them from fighting. He hung up pissed.

[Vermontearthmom]

74. Sir, I am moved by your post

I wish there was something I could personally do to lessen the pain and impact that we’ve caused. But, I believe you are correct. It is time for you to get your land back.

[the other one]

77. True. Every word is true.

Thanks for reminding me of the unpaid debt the government and the citizens of the US owe to the natives whose land and culture was stolen and destroyed. You speak truth: the U.S. cannot reach real greatness with such a black stain of bad karma at its roots. If I could, I would give it all back yesterday.

[graywarrior]

78. The most important thread ever started.

[progressoid]

79. I remember hearing Russell Means give a talk in the 80's

I was pissed that Reagan was elected and expected some good Reagan bashing from him. What I heard was Dem bashing. And rightfully so. It was easier to throw a little money at a problem than actually deal with it.

I don't think you should expect much help from the Democratic party (and none from the Repubs) for a while. With today's politicians' hands in the pockets of corporations, it's hard to see how they would take your side. Sure there are a few with actual hearts but when push comes to shove, the dollar wins over people.

I think this is going to take a nationwide change in how we treat our fellow man. We worship and desire money and power (irony of ironies from a supposed "Christian" country) over the welfare of people.

Maybe Cobell's lawsuit against the Gov't will make some impact and force the issue into the open.

[newspeak]

81. prophecy-yes

at the sunrise ceremony at Alacratraz, a medicine man from central America spoke ---he said that he had a vision that there would soon be a divide, it mattered not if you were red, black, yellow or white, that the divide would be of belief---the people of the earth and the people not of the earth. He said that there would be no fence sitters. That there would come a day that you would have to choose and walk your path.

[Lorien]

83. I can only tell you what Bill Clinton told my Native cousin;

Native Americans comprise around 1% of the US population; not enough of a percentage for politicians to consider them "politically important" (what he didn't say that we also know to be true; you don't have the financial resources to buy an audience with politicians). He admitted to her that it was wrong and unfair, but so are many other political realities (I'm paraphrasing). Just one among many reasons for a complete overhaul of our political system, IMHO.

[Iktomiwicasa]

86. At your peril

Following "political reality" will cost you your nation.

[Lorien]

90. Most certainly

this "Empire' is on the brink of collapse as we type. The political realities that Clinton spoke of have done nothing less than unraveled democracy in favor of corporate fascism.

[nofurylike]

144. it is already so. and knowing this nation is destroying all life on Earth,

it is time we face that the only hope for the world is for this nation to be lost.

if there is any way to help, please say.


peace

[Mandate My Ass]

94. OMG!

That's the equivalent of the guy who murdered his parents throwing himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan. The natives were 100% of this nation's population before the gov't decided to commit its first act of genocide to get their hands on the spoils. Actually, it's more like saying if murdering thieves outnumber the dead, killing and stealing isn't a crime anymore.

[Iktomiwicasa]

95. Why

are you surprised?

[Mandate My Ass]

98. that's the second question you've asked

that I can't answer. :-(

[newspeak]

97. BINGO

Great analogy. I was thinking the same thing!

[Lorien]

112. I don't think that Clinton implied that it wasn't a crime

he just stated the disgusting reality of politics today. My cousin was neither pissed with him or surprised by what he said (she's also a politician-and heavily involved in Native issues). Look at the corporations that control our country; the reality is that killing and stealing will never be a deterrent to higher profits. If it were, we wouldn't be in Iraq right now. Stating that fact doesn't mean that one condones such actions.

[Sparkman]

111. "Indian" Casinos are changing all the political isolation, so let's gamble

I love our So. Calif. casinos. The crap table uses two deck of cards, full of ace-two-tre-four-five-six cards only. It works just like Vegas dice craps. VERY important to patronize the Native Gaming.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mikimouse]

96. Welcome to DU...Honor, Honesty, and care for community...

are the hallmarks that I have always associated with the Native peoples of the world. I only hope that we can, to an extent, repair the damage we have done, as European immigrants. I mean that sincerely, as a card carrying non-native member of the West Texas Kickapoo, and bearer of the Eagle feather.

[Iktomiwicasa]

100. Say what?

"as a card carrying non-native member of the West Texas Kickapoo, and bearer of the Eagle feather."

You cannot be an enrolled tribal member of a federally recognized indian tribe and not be native. If you are not native and are carrying eagle feathers, you can get your ass in big trouble.

[Mikimouse]

102. I was awarded the eagle feather by the tribal council chief in Lubbock in

1998.

[Iktomiwicasa]

122. You might

want to see what our traditional chiefs have to say about that. Please, read the entire message, especially the part concerning eagle feathers.

Some things are rightly ours and ours only.

http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/protection_of_ceremonies.htm

[Desertrose]

174. I agree..as someone who works with feathers ..

you cannot have in your possesion any eagle feathers, either found or gifted.

Makes no difference. Only CARD CARRYING (enrolled) members of RECOGNIZED tribes are permitted to have those feathers. The fines are very stiff if you get caught.

Same for hawk & owl and other birds of prey. (The list of birds is quite long- not that one must be a member of a tribe, just that they can land you in a heap of trouble.)

I always thought that the white man allowed Indians to keep the feathers since they saw them as not being valuable (in white man terms) ...which again, shows the power of their disconnect from spirit and the earth.

[FreedomAngel82]

99. I think everybody is forgetting a little something

that might be important. Remember the land rule the Supreme Court did earlier this year?

[Occulus]

166. Heeee-e-e-e-e-yyyyyy

I wonder.....

[LittleClarkie]

101. But the Black people don't ask for their own table, do they?

You say you want your own table. In other words, you want your nation separate from the United States? Are you speaking of sovereignty?

Not trying to quarrel, but to understand.

That said, many groups would like to be the very top of the priority list. And the circumstances of each of the groups you mentioned are different. I don't think, honestly, native American issues will gain top priority. But equal priority wouldn't seem to be much to ask.

(I'm 1/16 Cherokee, btw. I'm used to the reply when I mention my heritage "Let me guess... Cherokee, right?" Generally folks aren't too impressed for some reason. Apparently everyone and their brother is part Cherokee.)

[hardrainfallin]

103. Indians are only asking for their own table BACK. Ahem.

Vine Deloria has this to day about the differences, in

The Red and the Black, Custer Died for Your Sins: An Indian Manifesto. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1988 <1969>

Blacks had to be excluded from society because if they rose in position, that meant the evolutionary scheme had superceded the Christian (paraphrase 172).

With the Indian the process was simply reversed. <...> Indians were <...> subjected to the most intense pressure to become white. Laws passed by Congress had but one goal—the Anglo-Saxonization of the Indian. The antelope had to become a white man (172).

It is well to keep these distinctions clearly in mind when talking about Indians and blacks. When the liberals equate the two they are overlooking obvious historical facts. Never did the white man systematically exclude Indians from his schools and meeting places. Nor did the white man ever kidnap black children from their homes and take themoff to a government boarding school to be educated as whites. The white man signed no treaties with the black. Nor did he pass any amendments to the Constitution to guarantee the treaties of the Indain.
The basic problem which has existed between the various racial groups has not been one of race but of culture and legal status. The white man systematically destroyed Indian culture where it existed, but separated blacks from his midst so that they were forced to attempt the creation of their own culture.
The white man forbade the black to enter his own social and economic system and at the same time force-fed the Indian what he was denying the black. Yet the white man demanded that the black conform to white standards and insisted that the Indian don feathers and beads periodically to perform for him (173).

[newspeak]

104. of course sovereignty

the first african american on the shores of America was in 1635, the native peoples were here. African Americans were here when Europeans were here. In the 1920's the government started a program to further assimilate Native Americans in the dominant culture, thus breaking down their traditional culture. And, before that with missionary schools and boarding schools, the government still attempted to assimilate native americans into the dominant european white culture. Many children could not speak there own language, their hair was cut, and they were forced to wear "white clothes." They could not worship their way-but were forced to worship in the european way. When you take someone's culture, religion and language away, it is called genocide. The government tried, but it did not work!

[LittleClarkie]

106. I always thought that word included, or meant, the death

of the group of people in question.

: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

I learned something.

[newspeak]

109. continued

then the government back in the '50's decided to divide the land on the reservation by death of a relative. If father died, then the land would be parceled out to so many family members. Thus diluting ownership of land. But, this plan didn't work either. Everything the government has atttempted to do has not worked. When I talk about ownership of the land, that is a european concept, not native people's concept.

[newspeak]

110. those that did attempt to become "more european"

The Cherokee who adapted in many ways to the European culture, created their own alphabet, many wore European clothes, but the whites wanted their land and what happened to them? It is plain simple greed.....greed of land, greed of resources. See what people will do for greed?

[H2O Man]

105. Yellow Thunder Camp

supporter.

[Iktomiwicasa]

107. Where the hell....

...did that star by my name come from?

[Ariana Celeste]

108. that means...

a DU'er donated for your name, so now you can use everything this site has to offer.

Welcome to DU, by the way, and I'm glad you raised this issue.

[sweetheart]

113. Ripples of karma

Many of the white people who came to your country originally came
because of political strife in their home nations, for being driven off
their franchise, cheated of their right.

And so, abuse begets abuse, and the children of the children drive
off people's franchise and cheat people of their rights, even their
own children, as abuse knows no generational boundary. And from slavery
on, the puritains in england and her chief colony were willing to
lie and cheat anyone easily disenfranchised from a moral postage stamp
of puritain values.

And you native ameiricans are no less cheated than black americans, than
any other sort of americans. The monster must die, and for the collapse
of the empire, we must trust that the power of the other 5.8 billion
people on this planet can wear down and destroy the corrupt evil empire
that has become his white man's corporate state of enslavement. With
moral fire, white men storm the earth waving bibles and leaflets explaining
the explosive capacity of their arsenals of WMD's.

[sepia_steel]

114. I'ma native american myself

and to be honest, the tone of this post is all wrong, IMO.

[Iktomiwicasa]

119. Care to...

...expand that thought? What nation are you?

[sepia_steel]

126. Choctaw.

I admire your passion, but the initial post just seemed a bit... like a taunt of sorts. Like, 'Hey, YOU PEOPLE owe us!' The thing that bothers me is this whole sort of 'we're seperate and alone' thing. "us", "them", "you democrat people", not to mention a lot of "white people are scum" and "you can't trust white people" type replies I'm seeing. Yes there are wrongs that need to be set right but I don't understand why you'd ask someone who agrees with you, "Yeah? Well what are you doing about it!?" Where are your ideas, your initiatives? Seems that so many of us would be happy to join you or at least help you to start something.

I agree that the gov't needs to live up to its promises, and I do not mean to offend, but what is getting all the land back supposed to do for us exactly - more money for us? Well why can't we make an impact on the gov't we're supposed to be equal members of? Everyone deserves teh same representation. Why do we need our own separate governments and our own seperate money when we all share the same continent? This is our coutny today; things have come that we can't go back and undo. Why is it that some of us seem to believe that we can't preserve a shred of our culture if we all participate in the same government? They took our land away but not who we are and this is our home. Why the need to seperate from everyone else? Nothing can take away our heritage.

And the idea that "Americans just don't give a shit about Native Americans" (not from you per se, from someone else) makes me sad! As an 'Indian' and an American, that seems harsh and unfair. We all live in the same country now and we're all part of it. There is no 'us and them' for me. The government is ours, we have to find ways to make them listen. Yes that can be a daunting idea in these infuriating times, but there are enough of us.

No offense, I'm just trying to understand. Don't get me wrong, without commodity cheese and free school supplies my family may not have made it. I have 'my' people, but ALL Americans are my people, too. There are things wrong with my country, but I still believe in it and I want ALL of my fellow, suffering Americans to be taken care of in the right ways, not just my Native brothers and sisters. I don't feel indignant or outraged only on the behalf of 'my' people. I want things to be set right, but not just for us, and there always seems to be this sentiment that no one has suffered as much as us and that we're an exclusive people and we deserve more help than other races. ALL kinds have suffered, but I do agree with your cause and I offer you any help that I have to give.

edit: why our they 'OUR' politicians and not yours, as well? This is part of what I was getting at. You can speak as loudly to them as 'we democrats' can, and we can do it together.

[sweetheart]

129. Wisely put

Thanks for bringing up the unsaid unsayable, but needing saying.

[Iktomiwicasa]

130. My purpose

in even starting this whole thread is to stir discussion of this topic. We as native people try and try within the political system to facilitate change, to get justice, but our voice is small. We need allies. So, I think it is only proper to ask members of a party that claims to champion human rights why their leadership drops the ball time after time or worse, ignores us altogether.Sometimes stirring the kettle is a good way to get noticed. Maybe these folks can put some screws to the politicians, refuse to elect them unless they are willing to do the right thing.

As for land...I will confess that I do not know if your nation has any outstanding land claims, but my tribe does. The Black Hills, for example. We demand nothing less than the full and total return of this land. The Supreme Court itself says that we have a legitimate claim to that land. We don't seek money....our source of life is our spiritual connection with this land, not mazaska (money). Without our land we will eventually cease to exist as indian people. You cannot seperate the two.

There was a time when I considered myself a "loyal American". I served four years in the U.S. Army, like many of my people. But the older I get, and the more I see of the dominant culture, the more I realize that the cultural gulf is too great, that the "american" system probably isn't capable of serving our interests. But I do speak out, hoping that someone from that world will care enough, and be in a position to do what is the only right thing.

[Mich Otter]

117. There is a massive pile of shit to be moved...

There is a massive pile of shit to be moved to get to where we need to be going. The peoples of this nation have to learn to see past the best funded and best organized propaganda machine in the history of the Earth.
We have to get past accepting that the one thing we do better than anyone on Earth, isn't caring for people but, making war.
We do a sorry job of caring for peoples human rights, providing health care, educating, preventing pollution, etc. But, after listing all the things we do poorly, the one thing we are best at is; making war. We have the most technological war machines, we have military bases in many countries around the world, we are quick to invade or attack anyone on made up pretenses, we spend about as much on our military as the rest of the world combined and we revel in the destruction of others.
We believe the propaganda that we are doing this all for some humane reasons or we are doing it because we are being threatened by someone like Grenada.
The small minded Americans are not ready to see the need to change themselves. They are not ready to accept that we are all kinfolk.
Too many Democrats are typical of what Americans are like as a whole.
The only way to change this is for us to start supporting candidates that are going to move this country towards being one that puts human rights first.
Either that, or wait till the next revolution starts.

[mopaul]

118. there is not enough representation of native americans in our govt.

and there are very few posting here it seems, thanks for contributing and making this point Iktomiwicasa

[Tace]

120. I'm Horrified And Ashamed Of US History Regarding Native Americans

And, I believe that all agreements should be honored, regardless of whether people have to give up their land.

But, I don't see it happening unless you take it back.

[Biased Liberal Media]

123. Welcome

In my "Cultural Diversity" class recently we read a chapter on the history of Native Americans. In the end the teacher asked us what we thought of Native Americans continuing to get help. I was the only one who said that of all of the people in this country, they should get first dibs. You know what everyone else did? They whined and complained about how they are being taxed to death and can't get aid if they need it.

I'm appalled at my fellow Americans hostility, and blatant racism. It never ends. The teacher herself seems subtlely racist.

Anyhow, welcome to DU. :)

[buzzsaw_23]

125. There is no freedom without land

This is and always has been the issue. In my opinion the reason many of the dems, both politicians and voters, avoid the Native American "issue" is that it entails giving up land. it's so easy to remain in the political comfort zone and discuss abstract principles and have cappuccino conversations than to truly confront how deep the troubles of this nation are (and always have been) and how pathologically malformed this political entity we call Congress is and shall always be. Reform is simply not possible as the issue is structural-systemic and to admit this is to admit that "your vote" and "your candidate" are essentially of little consequence. It all goes back to controlling the land. All else is obfuscation.

I recall the words of John Trudell who stated how powerless the white man felt despite having the many accoutrements, including privilege, of this society while the Native American did not feel so powerless with none of these mythical privileges.

Your post is superb and hits upon something I have been telling people for years, you're living it I'm just screaming it, and that is exactly the point that noone wants to confront this issue because it means GIVING UP LAND.


Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism... Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all others.

-- Emma Goldman

No borders
No Fences
Unbound

[sepia_steel]

128. That paragraph puts it into words in a way I have been seaching for

for years!!!!

"Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism... Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all others.

-- Emma Goldman"

Thanks, buzzsaw!

[nofurylike]

131. thank you for speaking this, Iktomiwicasa. how very sadly true.

i am aware you have little reason to trust this, but please know that there are many who agree with you, completely and actively, but who are rendered invisible by politicians and media. many of us are desperately seeking methods by which we can make the very differences you speak of, and more.

using peaceful political process has been turned against us by politicians who use our peacefulness to bypass or simply ignore us; more extreme measures invariably result in our being discredited - including in our families, communities and parties.
please know that that is why many such activists are rarely heard from or about.

i am now going to read this thread in hopes that it holds suggestions for how we might proceed effectively.

believe me, i live every moment of life aware i am an occupier of your lands; ashamed of my heritage; fiercely determined to make all the difference in this i possibly can.

thank you for your generous spirit in being willing to even ask what you have.

welcome to du.


peace

[Tsiyu]

132. If I could, I would give you the Black Hills

and I would take your children to better lands where they could breathe and grow and thrive.

Your anger is understood; it's part of a chorus of anger. This doesn't make your suffering any less than another's. We suffer together.

I suppose we decide whether to work together or to accuse each other.

Perhaps you could teach people about the issue, as other DUers do when there are issues close to their hearts.

Sure, we should care enough to do the research ourselves, but overall I believe we each research those issues which impact us directly.

You can offer a unique voice and perspective. You can teach others. Or whatever....

[newspeak]

135. Sacred Black Hills

The Black Hills are considered the very heart of mother earth. It is very important to keep mining and drilling out.

[Nothing Without Hope]

134. Welcome to DU, and I hope you stay. Politicians are moved by large numbers

of people, and they in turn can be moved by education in what is really happening. We can media-blast, write congress people, tell our local communities. Please continue to bring your message here - DU is a good place for starting ripples that rise to strength.

[nofurylike]

137. during the boycott of south africa, a white-supremacist there said, "well

we could've done what you people (of the u.s.) did, killed just about every last native on the continent..."

now, of course it is no less vile to leave as many first people alive as possible to be slaves. but it was a powerfully agonizing humiliation to hear that slice of the truth, from an afrikaner. we were all so incredibly active in the boycott of south africa, but so few even grasped what we are perpetuating, even paying for, here!

i would always wear the statement "u.s. out of america" on armbands and teeshirts, except that "america" is the colonial name for this land mass, and also doesn't include island colonies.

can you suggest a word appropriate to that statement, that i might replace the word america with? maybe "u.s. out of First Nation Lands"

well, really, in my humble opinion, 'u.s. out of Earth' would best express it...albeit way late...

this nation was founded to exploit and (physically and resource) colonize. it is in the original charter.

sigh

we are boycotting much, for change. maybe re-defining the purpose of our boycotts, and ask people of the world to join us in a boycott similar to...??

siiiigh....


peace

[Tigress DEM]

138. Getting our rights back to deal with the problem is Priority 1

Our due process is in shreds. Most of us on the DU would like this joker and all his criminals impeached. This weekend should be a major start on that agenda.

I don't know the full extent of which treaty rights you have lost, but with a pResident who couldn't even define Soverign Nation, I suppose it's worse than it's ever been and I have some understanding of the history.

No problem adding your concerns to the list, but as far as priorities, we have to get THESE guys out NOW. They aren't just abusing the system, they are trying to fully dismantle it so we can NEVER stop them.

There ARE people who come from many backgrounds who understand the heart of the matter is basically common sense:
1) Justice for all can not be accomplished by more tax credits for the richest 5%.
2) An equal chance to starve or be enslaved isn't exactly what the fathers of the Constitution had in mind
3) Ignoring global warming and pollution (especially in the water) isn't going to make the problems go away.... and
4) Using one's power to crush anyone who doesn't bow, scrape and say "yes" all the time isn't Democracy at its finest.

I think people who have common sense and common decency can come together from dis-simular backgrounds and look to recreate this country in a fairer image. However, with people who only worship power and money in charge, there isn't any wiggle room for people who simply want to breathe.

Those of us going to DC this weekend could very well wind up facing bizzare charges because the pRes has been given expanded powers to declare Americans as enemy combatants or some strange thing. Hopefuly we will be here next week to look at your agenda items and not sitting next to your people's political prisoners... although talking to Leonard Peltier would feel a lot more sane and rational than watching Fox News - if a bit surreal. I wouldn't get so lucky though, I'd be in women's prison. Or Gitmo.

[Fescue4u]

145. I feel for your ancestors

For that matter I feel for my ancestors as well.

Personally, Im quite the Mutt. I have native american (3/16's), African and European ancestory.

If I did the PC thing, I should hate myself, since Im part slave, part slave owner, part native American oppressor and part native american oppressed.

But I prefer to just live in the present. I had no hand in the oppression, nor did I suffer from the oppression of my direct ancestors. I feel no guilt for the acts of guilty ancestors. Nor do I feel victimization for my victimized ancestors.

We cannot undue the past, we can only live in the present.

[Iktomiwicasa]

146. I don't

play that "you should feel guilty because of your ancestors" crap. If you don't love your own people, you have no hope.

[Lexingtonian]

148. It saddens me

to tell you what my conclusion is, but it contains hope.

Native Americans are the final problem of this state we call the U.S.A. Which is to say, repairing the great historical wrong involved in the taking of the land is the final and highest and most difficult task it faces. It means that this problem will, in some form, persist beyond the resolution of all other great matters of the society that lives in this land.

In some fashion the first bits of positive resolution are beginning to happen. Parts of the land are started to get depopulated of white people, most notably in the Dakotas and the northern Great Plains. With a little help much of your forebearers lands will go over to your people in the next years, one parcel after another. Where I am the Mashantucket Pequots started a panic among white people in eastern Connecticut when it was discovered that they were buying up various pieces of their tribal homeland in 1998. Of course, it's not going to be the most valuable pieces of land that are recovered first, and maybe that is not such a bad thing.

I find the revival of tribes on the whole more important. The remembering and learning of the languages and such. One of our local tribes, the Wampanoag, are relearning their ancestral language from scratch. A curious thing is that now that quite a few are fluent in it they have begun to write poetry in it, which was not done with English.

It's not a pretty climb up from the unfortunate condition and it proceeds in little increments. My best Indian friend, a beautiful Chippewa woman from Manitoulin who is a dancer and writer in Toronto, is quite philosophical about politics and radicalism about demands when I asked her about these things. She believes that in the end the land is most important for the sacredness that it contains and the people can use to ennoble themselves. And the value of a tribe is in the good people and nobility in them it can produce. I think she is right. Everyone hates the small bits in which restoration of rights and dignity and opportunities happens, but perhaps the spiritual restoration is the truest measure of change.

[Alamom]

156. self-delete

[NVMojo]

149. welcome. I work for the Te-Moak Tribe of the Western Shoshone

Indians of Nevada. They believe they were screwed blue and tattooed by Senator Harry Reid with their claims bill and now they are being told it will take 7 years to pay them each their measley $20,000. a piece settlement. And they do not even have a reservation. So no rights. And I think this is very wrong!!!

So did your local BIA super tell your tribe yesterday that all Tribes' 638 contracts will be cut because of Katrina yet???

[Iktomiwicasa]

199. Yes

We were talking about that this morning. We don't know if the cuts will be across the board or in specific areas. But it figures....let the indians (and other) impoverished people pay for government mismanagment. Tongue in cheek (kinda)here, but only white people would build a damn city below sea level. :smoke:

Te-Moak....Battle Mountain? I have many good Shoshone and Paiute friends in that area, especially Duck Valley and west over to Pyramid Lake. I just returned from Duck Valley last month.

[ladylibertee]

152. I'm african,english and cherokee......I am also very confused as

how I would even attempt to answer the questions raised in your thread.I have just now sent an e-mail to Howard Dean who is the Chairman of the Democratic National Committee.If and when I get a response I will be more than happy to let the DU know.I invite you to stay and visit with us.I anticipate an answer from Howard Dean soon.I have to say, given my multi-racial heredity, I am in a unique position to understand where people are coming from as it relates to race and how they are treated.I myself,having more dominate african features,have experienced quite a bit and have felt the same way you have.Only,I had perceived there was more being done for Native Americans than Blacks.It's strange how we all perceive things, but as far as our Party goes,I think that is something perhaps the Chairman can answer.

[Alamom]

157. Welcome and Thank you.........I live near land purchased by my

(3rd) Irish grandfather and Cherokee Grandmother, in Alabama when they were forced to leave the Cherokee Nation of Georgia.
(Indian Removal Act 1830). My Irish ancestors had lived, married Cherokee & farmed within the Cherokee Nation nearly 100 years before being removed.
I have papers and records of these events.
Their son, my great-grandfather also married a Cherokee woman. She was our blood, but she died very young and I didn't know her.

My heart breaks because your words are so very true.
My heart also breaks when people ridicule the South.
I don't think they realize how many Native Americans of different tribes and their descendants, full blood and mixed blood still occupy the land of our ancestors in The Southern States.

I hope this thread will stay alive and be remembered.

I don't know how much Cherokee blood I have. I only have records of my fathers family. I have 2 Cherokee great-grandmothers in my Mother's family, but no records, just family knowledge.





Thank you for your courage to speak up on behalf of Native Americans everywhere.

[Cats Against Frist]

158. I support your land claims and more

if I were president, I'd give you your land claims and a bunch of nat'l park land -- and I'd give you a hearty speech on not fucking it up, or selling it. Native Americans are like all people -- there isn't some gene that makes them super-moral and good. However, if I thought you guys would homestead, chase beefalo and conserve the land, you can have all the government-owned land you want.

[Iktomiwicasa]

164. We

are people like any other. However, we still hold title to alot of land that our beloved government says we cannot possess. That's bullshit.

[Cats Against Frist]

186. I agree with you, very much n/t

[Butterflies]

160. restoration of treaty rights and land claims

should be a priority. Our country's history is shameful in the way Native Americans have been treated, and you are right that the obligations that were agreed to need to be honored. I'll contact my state representatives today - that's all I know of to do.

I'm glad you're here Iktomiwicasa.

[Swede]

163. You need a seat at our table.

You should get your land back,if this is not possible,other land or the money to buy it. You should get compensation for the minerals removed from your land,the trees cut etc. But the whiteman is here and you have to be at "our" table and become part of it.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Waya]

171. "You wish to live on a reservation and suck off the government".....??????

ARE YOU FOR FRIGGING REAL????????

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Waya]

190. Maybe you have a point.....

...you say "Why should one American citizen be treated differently than any other citizen? We are supposed to be all equal but our dirty little secret is we are not treated all the same and never will be."

You are so right - let's treat you, and the likes of you, just like Native Americans are being treated - we'll see how long you last and how much you enjoy it.......

[H2O Man]

195. Actually, you are not even close to accurate.

{1} "They think of themselves as a foreign nation..." Way wrong. Native Americans were established nations long before 1492, not to mention 1776. {2} "They are American citizens..." Some are. Some aren't. The US Constitution recognizes the Indian nations as sovereign. Federal law certainly recognizes a difference between, for example, Onondaga and New York. Or, if we were to consider Mohawks, who have territory that overlaps both New York and Canada. Clearly your definition is limited. {3} The BIA provides free health care. My friend, you do not have a clue as to what you are talking about. Again, while some do have health care, it has less to do with the BIA than their own initiative. You had mentioned "reservations"; do you assume all territories (reservations to your way of thinking) have health care? Hopw about non-reservation people? {4} "...yet they chose to live in poverty and decay." The poverty on reservations is terrible. The poverty in your thinking is, too.

Indian people do not invest in the direction the USA is headed for much the same reason that Jewish people didn't think, "Hot damn! I'm an official Roman citizen!" There's an old saying, "Dig a white man's grave and go to jail; dig an Indian's and get a PhD." Until 1992, it was perfectly legal to excavate any traditional Indian's grave, steal the "artifacts," and pack the remains into a shoebox in a museum basement. If Indians are citizens, why are many of their ceremonies of religious significance illegal? Why did there have to be a new federal law in the 1970s to "okay" other belief systems?

You appear ignorant of the fact that many Indian people with law degrees, or who teach at universities in cities during the week, return to territories on weekends, and live in that gosh darned poverty that has you so upset. They practice the religious traditions of their ancestors. They are sovereign nations, recognized by the UN and other countries, and they travel on their own passports. Thus, your stance is not rooted in reality.

[Waya]

175. What have Native Americans done?

The Iroquois Constitution served as a model for the US Constitution, for starters....of course, that Americans have messed it up in less then 250 years can't be blamed on Native Americans, can it?

[Toots]

178. You paint with a mighty wide brush

Each tribe in America was a different Nation. Kind of like European nations. If one tribe does one thing why lump them all together. It is correct that the Iroquois Nation was made up of many separate tribes and they had a way of governing themselves that was unique and worthy. the white man saw the wisdom in it and copied much of it. The Lakota did not govern that way. Nor did the Crow or Sioux. They practiced warfare and celebrated thievery. Women were not considered worthy by those tribes yet by the Iroquois Women were the rulers. What did the Lakota do for America or even for themselves?

[Iktomiwicasa]

183. Your ignorance...

....is showing.

"The Lakota did not govern that way. Nor did the Crow or Sioux."

I am Lakota. Lakota ARE "Sioux", you dolt. The two terms are interchangable.

"They practiced warfare and celebrated thievery. Women were not considered worthy by those tribes"

Yes, we practiced warfare, like every other nation of humans in history. No, we did not "celebrate thievery", and women have ALWAYS been an equal part of our society. Women owned all the property in our culture, the tipi and all the furnishings, as well as her own horses. The only thing a man owned were his horses, weapons, clothes and other personal items. A woman could not be forced to marry against her will, and had the right of divorce. All she had to do was throw the mans belongings out the tipi door and send him down the road. A husband had no right to abuse his wife.

Please educate yourself before you try to say and what we are.

[Desertrose]

179. When was the last time YOU lived on a rez, toots??

You are clearly clueless. You have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever even been to a rez??

Do you know that here in AZ they gave the Navajo land that is contaminated by uranium?That our govt refuses to let them repair & build or drill new wells on parts of their own lands??

It is beautiful and sacred but not so easy to live off the land.

WHO THE HELL LIVES WELL OFF THE GOVT?! NO ONE I KNOW

What have they done for the land??? YOU HAVE TO BE F'ING KIDDING HERE...RIGHT??

Its people like you spouting off their mouths without putting any truth in their brains first that make me sorry anyone has to hear such blather.

...and I supposed you say the same things about anyone who is poor and struggling?? You SOUND just like the republicans....

[MamaBear]

169. I'm not sure our leaders want to do anything about it.

There will never be justice for the indigenous peoples because to grant justice would be to cede power, something the white man will NEVER do voluntarily.

Further, to cede power in this case would mean to cede property (real estate), the true holy grail of the Europeans and their descendants.

I am one of those descendants. The fair thing would be for us to go home to Europe (and all the other places non-native Americans come from) and give you your continent back, unless the remaining indigenous people decided they wanted to share some of it with some of us. This is easier for me to say because I don't own any real estate, so for me it would be a matter of borrowing (for a fee) a living space from a different landlord.

Our elected representatives routinely ignore our pleas in all matters, unless we can enclose a sufficiently large contribution to their re-election campaigns.

We are living in sad and evil times.

I am pleased to have met you, Iktomiwicasa.

[Ron Green]

170. I don't think the "nations" can exist separately anymore.

If the USA is indeed "one nation," then the descendants of the people who were here before the 16th Century must eventually be part of that nation. It seems that in many cases, what were once lives of integrity and care have become dependent on the largess of a guilty national government and the free market of gambling and cheap cigarettes.

I believe that tribalism is the very thing that is tearing apart the democratic principles of this country: rich/poor, black/white, left/right. It's all about "we" this, and "they" that. In its efforts to "honor" those who it dishonored for so many years, the US Government has further isolated the descendants of Native people from the democratic process.

[Jersey Devil]

180. Well said

A very good post. I wish I'd have said it that way.

[Jersey Devil]

172. Why should I pay for the sins of someone else's fathers?

Native Americans were the victims of genocide, a sad and shameful chapter in American history. But I had no part in it and the great majority of Americans today are descended from the waves of immigrants who came to this country from Europe in the late 19th century and early 20th century, who also had no part in it, nor do today's immigrants, from Asia and all over the world.

To take my land or the land of any others would be just as wrong as what was done to native Americans.

There is no turning back the clock. What was done in the past was very wrong but the people who are alive today, whether their ancestors lived here at the time or not, have nothing to do with it.

It is time to move on.

[Iktomiwicasa]

173. That's what

we hear from Republicans "It is time to move on."

No one here said anything about "kicking all the white people out". We simply demand that the United States honor agreements that it made with our tribes. Pretty simple, no?

[Jersey Devil]

176. No, not simple at all and it would require kicking out others

and not necessarily just "white people". There are millions of people living on lands that were granted to native Americans by treaty and moving people off of them would be impossible, not to mention grossly unfair.

For instance, the land my home is on was once part of the lands of the Hackensacki, Oritani and Ramapo tribes (what I understand were part of the larger Lenni Lenape Nation) in northern NJ. There are 10 million people in north Jersey. Where would you send them and why should they suffer because your great great grandfather was wronged?

[Waya]

189. Ahhh.....the "I had no part in it" idea....

...unfortunately it isn't that simple. Nobody holds you, or anyone else living today, personally responsible for what happened in those days. But the point is that it is ongoing today - only the methods have changed - the agends is the same. And as long as we let it continue - it's everyone's responsibility.

[Jersey Devil]

194. What is "ongoing" and what "agenda"?

Of course I am not responsible. By the same token, however, today's native Americans are not victims either. Someone long ago did terrible things to their ancestors. That is tragic. But what is holding back today's native Americans that they cannot take part in the American dream just like everyone else?

[newspeak]

198. what American dream?

"they can take part in the American dream?" Define "American Dream, please." Living on the res. your living in a fairly tight knit community , with the same cultural ties. For many, living away from the cultural ties, would be like a fish without water. So, I want to know what the American dream you are talking about? Is it about making money, being successful, or having material wealth? Not all gravitate towards those beliefs. Many Native Americans believe in interconnectedness, between family, tribe and environment.

[Jersey Devil]

201. That's their choice. No one has chained them to the reservation

If they want to pretend they are a separate nation they can but it is self defeating because it is a pipe dream. Ethnic groups can integrate with the rest of us and maintain their cultural identities. My grandparents did it and so can they.

[Iktomiwicasa]

203. Big

difference between your ancestors and mine. What makes you think your way is so attractive that we'd want to "integrate"? How about you "integrate" with our ways?

[BeHereNow]

214. BEST. REPLY. EVER!!!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome to DU,
BHN:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :hug: :hug:

[Jersey Devil]

222. Sounds like you don't want "justice"

What you seem to want is a separate nation yet at the same time the benefits of US citizenship. You can't have both.

[Iktomiwicasa]

225. I want

the United States government to honor written agreements that it made with our peoples. When you enter into a contract with another, do you expect him/her to uphold their end?

[newspeak]

200. No agenda?

If you look at the top of the threads, you know I asked about the industrial hemp program at Pine Ridge. The DEA closed it down, after the hemp was grown. See they waited until after it was grown. If you toured some reservations, you must take in consideration the land and how it will provide for the tribe. Some land cannot grow anything, but hey corporations have found some form of mining or energy on it. Then watch the wheeling and dealing with government interference and a few gov. indians willing to trade the rest of the tribe for mere pennies. You know, native americans self-determination without BIA's interference and the government as a whole would be realized. Not everything is a handout--the mining rights on the res. (which they get screwed every year) is not a handout!!!! Some reservations would be very wealthy indeed if their resources weren't sold to some political hacks corporate friends for mere pennies.

[Jersey Devil]

202. This is an entirely different issue that I'd agree with you on

The main post in this string proposes, as I understand it, that land be given back to native Americans that is now owned by others. That is absurd and impossible.

[Iktomiwicasa]

204. If

honoring treaties is absurd, then you need to define at which point stolen property becomes legal title. Can you provide that definition?

[Jersey Devil]

224. This is obviously going nowhere

What wrong was done to YOU by me that I should pay for?

[newspeak]

206. what he's asking for treaty rights restoration

not giving all the US back.. Full treaty rights restoration. What happened in these treaties is that certain land was acceded to native americans--then, the europeans found some resource or considered fertile ground; then took it away, pushing many on less desirable land-land, in some cases so harsh, barren and at the time mostly worthless.

[Jersey Devil]

223. OK, so what is "justice"?

Doing wrong to innocent people who paid for the land with their money, blood, sweat and tears to right a wrong that was done by people dead for over 100 years?

[Iktomiwicasa]

215. Can't

provide a definition of when stolen property becomes a legal possesion? I'm waiting, Devil.

If it becomes a legal possesion by right of conquest, I assume you have no problems with the Bush/Oil adventure in Iraq.

[Waya]

232. Nobody chains them to the Rez.....

Maybe not. But that is all that we have left, because of 'something someone did a long time ago'. And what is holding us back is the setup of the system. What you're saying is that we should leave the Reservations, the only land that we can still call ours (so the Government can dissolve the Rez and steal that Land, too), 'and take part in the American Dream' (which has already turned into a nightmare and is as much a myth as 'Liberty and Justice for all').
That's like saying if you can't find a job in the US, because your Government has shipped most of them overseas, then move to China or India - after all, nobody is chaining you to the Land of your birth.
What you're saying is we should finally assimilate, adapt and live the 'American way'.

This Land was ours way before it was yours - and the only reason it's 'yours' is because of theft and genbocide. Yea, I definately want to take part of that 'dream'.

[Greyhound]

177. One of the many reasons I'm not an official Democrat. It's just that,

right now, they're the much lesser of two evils.

[hfojvt]

185. I consider myself more of an anti-Republican

but the only practical way to acheive that is to work for the Democrats, but then there is even a battle in the Democratic party between progressives and those who want to become more like the Republicans in order to 'win'.

[hfojvt]

181. Our nation is doomed?

Your question is way too easy. Why don't we make that a top priority? Because it would lose way more elections than it would win. I would not vote for it myself.

Of course, I am considered a trogolodyte by many on this board (and this response here might be considered all too typical), but anybody else here who wants to vote to give up their own residence which they have been working to pay for over the last dozen years because of treaties that are hundreds of years old can step forward. I do not expect to be trampled.

If this was 2000 again, I would lobby Clinton to pardon Leonard Peltier. I did not at the time, because I heard nothing about it. I only heard recriminations afterwards "why did he pardon Marc Rich and not Leonard Peltier?"

I would say hi to a fellow Dakotan since I grew up there, but I wonder if you consider me a former neighbor or another white tresspasser who never should have been allowed to move there? I am not sure what I am expected to do to make up for the supposed sins of my fathers.

[newspeak]

207. Okay, we are talking about treaties

Come on folks, treaties, that the us government made with other peoples and broke!!!! Not just one us administration, but numerous. Where is the perception of honor and truth? These treaties were made by the UNITED STATES government---This is not about reparation of slavery---it is about a legal document not being upholded. I mean why should other countries trust us in a treaty if they know we have no honor and our word cannot be trusted.

[Iktomiwicasa]

209. No

I do not look upon anyone who lives here as an interloper. Where in the Dakotas are you from?

[hfojvt]

218. you might have been there

if you went to the SD State Fair, although Huron is probably a long days drive from where you are. I was there for 16 of my first 18 years, and the next six summers and kinda think of it as home. I tried to live there after college, but there were no jobs.

[confludemocrat]

187. I am native too, this post kind of illustrates a problem Democrats have

Yesterday, Leahy called Roberts a man of integrity, yet from all we know this man has always taken the side of the privileged and powerful and almost never the side of justice as we on the left would recognize it. Roberts has major issues vis a vis native americans that prove his very lack of integrity. Yet, being a white male Leahy can look at this matter basically in an abstract, academic way; for him, with his innate privilege and position of power in an exclusively (for all intents and purposes) white male power club, he doesn't need to worry about what Roberts will mean for his future and survival, he will be fine either way, his life will go on comfortably, he Leahy will even be shielded or defended by people here, whom I must say, just don't get it. So when Iktomiwicasa reminds us of a widely held point of view that your privilege is illegitimate although I don't share his views in totality, the body of this group is uncomfortably reminded of how far we have to go.

[Fla Dem]

188. I along with many others feel what has been done to the Native Americans

is abominable. What I don't understand, and I'll admit it because of ignorance, is what you mean by "You cannot have honor unless and untill you deal with us, and live up to the obligations that you have agreed to long ago."

What obligations are you speaking of. I know there were treaties. What in those treaties do you want restored? You mention restore land claims. Where? Do you mean creating separate sovereign nations within the US? Do you mean governing these sovereign nations outside the US government. Not being apart of the US? Having borders, closed society, passports, your own governments, armies, treasury, school systems, in short, supporting yourselves without US interference?

I am not being sarcastic, or flippant. I just want to understand the scope of your demands.

If this nation is doomed, I would not imagine that would bode well for you either.

[Festivito]

191. Hmmm. No, I think it's due to pragmatism, rather than comfort or ease.

The pragmatism of running in our election system, funded from good AND bad sources.

Average Americans do not understand your plight. They see such a request as a quagmire of many past treaties too many of which have been broken, and treaties which if honored at any level may, may, lead to an uncomfortable position. And, your statement about ease and comfort is correct as it applies to the American people. But, you directed your comments to the Democrats, not the American people in general.

Democrats must run and win in order to have any say, any say at all. We fight well funded Republicans who are funded by persons able to profit immeasurably from our nation's fruits, and they are willing to take large shares of this wealth from the poorest of persons who even give their own lives to this country. They hide this from the American voters, and they do win, and they do take.

So, what you would to ask is that we, Democrats, risk making an already confused and misinformed voting population to create even more fear through the threat of being uncomfortable and uneasy. Fear that will play into the hands of those who steal vast quantities not only from you, but from each of us.

Pragmatism is NOT RIGHT. It is the result of our current system. It can only be kept to a minimum no matter how perfect any system can be. And, indeed, unless we change, we may be doomed. That will eventually be to your advantage.

As to the difference between yourselves and Israelis, Palestinians, Blacks, Hispanics, et. al. Israel/Palestine is over there, not here, it does not scare the comfort. Blacks, Hispanics, the disenfranchised and the poor are not treated well by either party, but we treat them better, IMHO. I hope you might see that of the two parties, we might not parade you as the reason for Americans to vote for us, but you should find us more reasonable and better than that other party no matter what they may promise -- and finally vote for us.

And, you might see that as pragmatic, or just the better choice.

I can't make everything better. But, I can reach and meet minds to show friendship.

[Cocoa]

193. "we do not want your government programs"

you should speak for yourself only.

I don't believe that represents the view of all (or even most) Native Americans.

[Iktomiwicasa]

197. I never claimed

to speak for all indians. However, I don't know any, traditional or otherwise, who doesn't favor treaty rights restoration over government handouts.

[Cocoa]

205. you are speaking for Indians

that's the gist of your post, "I'm an Indian and here's what we think."

[Iktomiwicasa]

208. I

know I speak for traditionalists in my community. Do not put words in my mouth.

Do you know indians who favor government programs over treaty rights?

[Cocoa]

216. I don't think it's either/or

the indians I know are not political at all, but I know they benefit directly from both treaty rights and from federal government programs.

[BeHereNow]

219. Cocoa- that is like saying, "The Mexican people I know...

Do not vote and benefit from public health care."
Or, "The black people I know are on welfare and
love watermelon."
Sorry, but your statement seems REALLY simplistic and racist.

I do not mean to speak for the original poster,
but I do beleive he speaks from a SPIRITUAL truth and
not a political one.

It is my interpretation that he understands that POLITICAL
process is an unavoidable factor in resolving a
spiritual matter.
But the bottom line is spiritual and based in
indigenous truths.
The treaties must be honored and the land
returned or chaos (and much worse) will continue to ensue.
Respectfully,
BHN

[H2O Man]

211. I think the poster

actually took the positionthat the traditional Lakota people have since 1868, when the Fort Laramie Treaty was signed. In the 137 years since, the treaty has been violated in every possible way. There have been numerous attempts by the federal government to "buy out" the Lakota interests, for example, to the Black Hills. "The Black Hills are not for sale," to quote Crazxy Horse.

We may like to think this is ancient history, but it's not. My grandfather was alive in this country when men like Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull were alive and resisting encroachment on their property.

The truth is that the Lakota Nation could be self-sufficient and a beneficial partner to grass roots democrats in the USA, if our government honored the Ft. Laramie Treaty. Obviously, the person is not saying that this treaty being honored changes US relations with the other Native Peoples.

[EFerrari]

217. And of course, what you believe is what we should all be concerned with.

You don't know anything about Indian Country, do you? Because if you did, you'd realize that this post is perfectly in keeping with the community -- in its expression and in its position.

[Cocoa]

220. especially the Republican Native Americans

http://www.backlash.com/content/race/2004/rodvanmechelen102804.html

<snip>

George W. Bush continues this tradition, with his strong commitment to tribal self-sufficiency and, his recent gaff notwithstanding, sovereignty:

Native American cultures survive and flourish when tribes retain control over their own affairs and their own future. That is why, earlier this morning, I signed an executive memorandum to all federal agencies reaffirming the federal government's longstanding commitment to respect tribal sovereignty and self-determination.— President George W. Bush, President Honors the National Museum of the American Indian, September 23, 2004, 8:35 A.M. EDT

Democrats, on the other hand, have given more overtures of friendship than any enduring help.

In the 1830s, under Andrew Jackson, the Democrat party opposed and viciously attacked Indian tribal rights, creating the infamous Trail of Tears.. Since then, more by accident than design, liberal policies have sucked the life out of Indian country through enticing programs that foster poverty, apathy and dependency.

more...

[JNelson6563]

210. I support your suggestions

I agree 100% that Native Americans have gotten the short end of the stick since you were invaded.

Julie

[SomewhereOutThere424]

213. I agree with you

I strive to help people and animal alike, aswell as the native americans. I'm apalled at the treatment people still continue to give to the native americans and it breaks my heart, a true testament to the corruption of the united states that the native americans and the animals, the very first residents of this countries, can be so harshly treated and disregarded.

Keep fighting the good fight, and know you have allies, no matter how pig headed and bilegerant some DUers or americans can be to your plight. We're all brethren in the end, and good things should come to all of us, native americans included most definately.

[rug]

229. I only made it as far as Porcupine in 1973

when I went out with a group from the Fellowship for Reconciliation to support the action at Wounded Knee. Other than the absence of APCs it sounds as if conditions are no better thirty years later.

Your points are dead on. Personally I think the problem is that both parties represent the same class. And that class, by all its actions, scoffs at notions of native sovereignty.

From what I've read and seen, there are plenty of collaborators within the tribes, within the tribal police and within the tribal councils. AIM had its share of battles with them.

I don't know what the solution is but it's likely one that is beyond party affiliation.

[Iktomiwicasa]

230. Thank you

to all who have posted on this thread, supportive, opposed, or indifferent. It was my aim to stir dialogue, and I had no idea that my first post here would get well over 200 responses. It seems that at least I have people talking about this. That is a good thing.

Pilamaye (thank you)

[lizziegrace]

231. Thank you!

This is a topic that is long overdue for discussion.

The little girl at Pine Ridge that my daughter and I help is living in a home with 21 people. Her grandmother and my mother (who visited Pine Ridge last summer) have become friends and the grandmother said that these people have nowhere to go and no place to stay, so she invites them in. I spend many nights trying to figure out how to do more to help with the little I have.

Iktomiwicasa, your people care for one another, regardless of the personal sacrifice. We could all learn so much.

I'm honored you're part of DU.

[garybeck]

240. Iktomiwicasa , I have been on your land, I support you

in the early 1990s, I'm not sure exactly what year, I was on Pine Ridge, to install a solar energy system. The people there were very kind to me. I hope the solar energy system is still working. If you know any thing about the system, and if it is being used, please let me know. When I was there I prayed with your people. We had a sweat and it was one of the most amazing things I have done. Peace to you.

[mzmolly]

241. I just visited South Dakota, and the Wounded Knee Memorial Museum

among other places.

I think you ask very legitimate questions.

I honestly believe Native Americans must form a united/national coalition and address/politicize the issues of concern as a group. Natives of this land must address the many broken treaty's and ask for X,Y,Z specifically.

Unfortunately money/politics plays a role in the land of "white men" ... and one must operate in said land in order to acquire justice.

I hope you'll stick around and ask questions that need to be asked, thanks for the thought provoking question(s).

[puerco-bellies]

242. I agree with your perceptions, and the rank and file do support

Native Rights. I am of Apache blood but do my smoke, and lodge ceremonies the Lakota way.

[obxhead]

243. How correct you are and....

welcome to DU. Please stay for awhile.

:bounce: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: