I don't think I can do it anymore.

[Pacifist Patriot]

For years I have enjoyed participating on internet bulletin boards devoted to discussing and debating current events. Unfortunately, one I participated on for over six years and enjoyed tremendously disintegrated. The site owners tinkered with the format making it too cumbersome for debating.

I recently found another site that seemed quite promising. I've tried debating on it for a week and am about to give up in frustration. I had forgotten what rubbing up against people utterly devoid in compassion felt like.

I am constantly being called to provide evidence for my statements of fact yet those on the right are able to post outrageous opinions without challenge. I supply links to show where I got my information and it is attacked as partisan. You know, those horrible left wing sites like the Centers for Disease Control, the American Medical Association, the U.S. Embassy to Japan and the University of Michigan.

I had hoped to keep my debate skills honed, stay in touch with alternative points of view and maintain an open mind.

Instead I am sickened by people who maintain homelessness is mostly a choice, insist African-Americans are evenly split between the Republican and Democratic parties despite statistical evidence to the contrary, ask "when did being poor become a bad thing?" and think the PNAC agenda is a good thing!

These people are being raped by the right wing and simply bend over uttering, "please sir, may I have another."

When did I lose my objectivity????? I really and truly miss a good respectful debate. It used to be possible. I swear it did.

[Bouncy Ball]

1. You didn't lose your objectivity.

What you just described is the reason I don't debate on boards with people of the reich wing persuasion anymore. It's just too sad to see people with absolutely no sense of humanity. I'd go so far as to call most of them craven. And completely willfully ignorant. Cruel.

There's only so much a feeling, thinking person can take of that.

Hell, I read some things in the paper and think "what happened to this country?" I just read a column by a guy who said hey, Iraq is going ok, the US can "handle" as many as 20,000 casualties over the next 30 months, so we're ok.

He's 24 years old, I found out. And NOT in the military.

You read things like that and think "My God. His blood must be 30 degrees Fahrenheit to say something like that."

[Pacifist Patriot]

5. Ouch! That's damned frigid.

The sad part of all this is that the debate board is populated by ministers of a variety of spiritual persuasions. I never cease to be appalled by heartless clergy.

[kiki]

2. Forget about it.

It was when one proud young American chickenhawk told me that the BBC was a Communist news agency that I realized that it is utterly, utterly pointless to engage in debate with these people. To them, freedom is the freedom to do - and say - what the fuck they're told.

[Bouncy Ball]

3. Yep.

You get to a point where you realize that is an utter and complete waste of time. And if they are there in person, a waste of breath.

I used to think you should never give up on people. But when the people in question are intentionally cruel and willfully ignorant, they are better left to struggle in their own little hateful world.

[brainshrub]

4. I've noticed what you are saying.

Conservative: The sky is green because Hillary Clinton eats kittens.

Liberal: The sky is blue and Senator Clinton doesn't eat kittens. But even if she did, her food choices wouldn't effect the color of the sky.

Con: Ha! Do you have references for that?

Lib: (after a quick Google search) www.skyisblue.com, www.whathillaryeats.com, www.noah.gov

Con: I refuse to visit those sites because they are run by LIEberals. In fact, one of the NOAH pages has a link to a site in Iraq. And that site in Iraq is a known supporter of communist, anti-american causes.

Lib: Oh, never-mind.

Con: Once again, the conservative wins the argument. I will now make snide comments about you the rest of the evening.

###

I stopped visiting conservative sites. It's like screaming into a pit.

[Pacifist Patriot]

7. Yep, that's pretty much how it goes.

The sad part is that this particular debate forum isn't at a conservative site. But I should have seen the writing on the wall when they debated something posted at Drudge.

[Dave Reynolds]

39. That sums it up quite well.

I have stopped trying to debate with them. It's a waste of time. Now, I just mainly target shoot.

[crispini]

44. LOL!

Good job! :thumbsup:

[yodermon]

48. They imploy the logical principle

(whose name i forget) that goes like this:

Assuming We Know (or can prove):
A is false.
B is false.

Then the statement A=>B (If A, then B) is actually a true statement.

A silly example being "If shrub got more votes in 2000, then I'm a monkey's uncle". Not a false statement.

Point being that if your premises are false, you can basically make up any old shit based on those premises.

And they do.

[Crunchy Frog]

50. That's a pretty brilliant summation.

What's the point in even trying to argue with that? You'd accomplish more by banging your head against a brick wall. I don't think they really believe those arguements, it's just some sort of bizarre game for them, although their hate is very real.

Life is just too short to engage in hate filled people with insane, twisted arguements. There's plenty of genuine debate to be found on places like DU.

[doublethink]

6. Give yourself some credit .....

to discern truth from fiction, fact and logic from propaganda and spin. Some people are going to just go on believing what they want to believe, no matter what. Hang in there, breath, smile, life is a gift. Thanks for caring enough about your fellow man/woman to at least try, unlike quite a few of the people your referring too. If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall into a ditch. Peace. :)

[Pacifist Patriot]

8. Part of why I do it is for the lurkers.

I know there have to be other people reading the discussions who choose not to get involved. If I can educate just one person.....

[bunkerbuster1]

14. oh, man, do I ever resemble those remarks

I continue to play in some neutral forums, trying to shed some light here and there and take down the occasional wingnut in the same hopes of possibly, just possibly, influencing some fence-sitters.

But it is a lot of work, not just in crafting appropriate replies but in resisting the urge to get down and dirty. I tear up more replies than I ever send.

[annabanana]

17. It takes a stronger person than I

to go to those places and confront those RW shills. Part of me is convinced that there are legions of these bozos on the payroll while the rest of me suspects that they've discovered the rush that they get from shutting someone up is addictive.

I'm trying to remember exactly when that style of "argument" became pervasive.. I remember the saying "You haven't convinced a man because you've silenced him" began to echo through me like a mantra.

I think there may have been an account of these tactics, and the teaching of them, in "Blinded by the Right" by David Brock.

How can we ever get "reason", that quaint concept, back into public discourse?

p.s... You are right about lurkers.. just knowing that there is another way to view an issue is liberating for someone who has been fooled into thinking that there is something "wrong" with them for believing the way they do...

[Pacifist Patriot]

20. I'm mindful of that when I remember a woman who recently joined

our church. For years she listened to her fundamentalist minister rail against homosexuals. She just couldn't reconcile that with what she knew of her gay uncle. Only when she stumbled into our congregation and lucked into a sermon that supported GLBT issues did she come to the realization that her inclinations were correct and what she was being fed was wrong. She needed to hear a validation of her suspicions voiced by someone else.

[crispini]

45. Yes, you are correct.

That is why I wear Dem pins, put Dem bumper stickers on my car, etc. People need to see that it's ok to be a Dem.

[doublethink]

23. Wise perception, educating the lurkers.......

I am sure there are more of them, then there are of us. And I know you have educated quite a few 'lurkers' in your posts. Hell you educated the rest of us too! :) ... all you can do is speak the truth however it presents itself to you. Some will get it, and others won't. I was once a lurker here too not that long ago. Think we all were at some point or rather. But the 'logic' truth, reasoning and perceptions from people as yourself made me get more involved. Believe me there are lurkers that go from your posts, and get curious enough to look into things for themselves. The silent ones you never hear about, but then you see every day someone with a low post count come into a discussion somewhere on this board. They came here because of people like you. Peace. :)

[bonito]

9. There are some people you can't intelligently reason

with they can't be objective, and it looks like this is what the administration has gathered under there fold, they believe just about everything there being fed. and there are people than can think for them selves that you can reason with.

[Pacifist Patriot]

13. On the bright side I have received a few PMs

from people who have thanked me for bringing "a breath of fresh air" to the boards, supporting my comments with facts and being willing to engage the right. It's just damned frustrating when they don't have the stones to back me up within a debate.

[FlaGranny]

28. That reminds me of a board I used to

visit before the 2000 election. I was doing a lot of research on Bush* and posting it in their political forum, which was run by someone who claimed to be a Democrat, but admitted to voting for Reagan, Bush Sr., and was boosting GW. Go figure. I debated her for months and got many PMs from people who agreed with me. One day I went to the board and the political forum had disappeared. I guess she didn't want to think about the research I posted there. She and one other heartless, cold soul would team up against me.

[femrap]

10. I see people behaving just like the leadership of our nation...

It all starts at the top...and look what is there! W. sets the standards for this nation so we shouldn't be surprised to see lots of arrogantly ignorant people who think their opinions count more than fact. I've talked to college professors and agree with that statement.

Also, W. looks down on the Intelligent, on Science...so now all of the Bubbas out there think they are top dog. And W. appeals to the not-so-smart religious...they finally have someone who tells them they are RIGHT and the tolerant and reasonable are WRONG.

It all starts at the top....just like in a corporation...the leaders set the stage.

We have to get rid of this leader.

[Pacifist Patriot]

11. You have an excellent point.

When leadership disdains evidence how can we expect their followers to do so?

[adigal]

12. I understand what you are feeling -

a colleague of mine, wingnut, with whom I had a shouting argument last week, told me he never reads the NY Times, "that liberal rag." Yet Hannity and Limbaugh's words are considered true?? Are these people freaking kidding me?? Truly stupid, although he is not a stupid man.

He told me to read his LTE in the paper today, and in it, he went on and on about how the govt cannot help people, govt is not any good and he would shudder to think of the govt taking over health care.

I emailed him that for the 45 million uninsured people in the US, the govt helping set up health insurance might sound good, compassionate conservatism means "I got mine, screw you," and told him about a friend whose husband lost his job and they had to eat really crap food because their health insurance cost $600 per month. One would think he never knew anyone like this!! I told him I hoped he thought about what would happen if our job stopped providing insurance or he was fired (which he should be for that letter devoid of compassion in the paper!!) Then I told him that I CANNOT discuss politics with him anymore because I get irate!!!!!!!!!!!

GGRRRRRRRR!! Smart people, who have bought Limbaugh and Hannity's "govt is the problem" BS. They have no compassion for other human beings and only think of themselves.

We can see the results of this with Katrina.

[Pacifist Patriot]

16. This is how bad it is.

Are you familiar with the "poor is..." thread on the Greatest page? I posted some of those and was met with..."Well geez, I identify with some of those because of the choices we make. Guess that means poor isn't so bad."

Grrr....they don't get the difference between frugal by choice and being poverty-stricken.

[Fight_n_back]

15. You can "debate" when discussing the Designated Hitter

but not when the person you are talking to doesn't think you should even use a ball.

Bush's Republican Party doesn't care what you think. I never debate them I just ask questions.

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. Excellent analogy.

Have any questions you want me to throw out? ;)

[Fight_n_back]

26. Tons actually

"How does that address poverty in this country"

Followed by:
"That addresses the urban poor, the majority of people on welfare are rural whites, how will you address that?" (see what I did there?)

some good wedge issues for those claiming to be christian:
"Do you believe in demonic posession?"

or
"Do you believes Catholics go to heaven?"
or
"Do you believe in gifts of the spirit?"

on abortion:
"Why do you think Europe has a much lower abortion rate than we do ?"

When they challenge you for facts on this ask them why they don't know that info yet go into a debate in the issue.

Never ask a question for which you do not know the answer. Almost all the Bush Republicans use talking points so it usually only takes about three questions for those to be exhausted. The logic they use is flawed so you can let them debate themselves rather easily.

Always, ALWAYS point out that "w" is completely in charge of everything that goes on in the White house, there is no Rove, no Cheney, no rumsfeld, no FEMA, only the strong, forceful leader sitting in the Oval Office.

[Fight_n_back]

47. Let me give you an example

I was at a job in the cinferenc room watching the NBA playoffs on our enormous TV. For some reason the news was on and somehow the death penalty was discussed. My co worker, out of the blue, goes on a torade about how we need the death penalty or "some liberal judge will let a murderer out so he can kill again".

I asked him if he could give an example of that ever happening.

He looked at me like I threw cold water in his face and I didn't have to yell or even think hard.

[Cleita]

19. It's a waste of time. When it affects them directly, they wake up.

Many staunch RWingers have seen their jobs and benefits disappear and it hurts. When that happens, it becomes a wake-up call for the smarter ones. Otherwise don't bother.

[Pacifist Patriot]

22. I mentioned it above, but I don't really do it for the RWingers.

I do it for the lurkers who might be fence sitters or wafflers. It's just that the beating becomes overwhelming after awhile without a safe place to say "AAAGGGHHH!!!!!"

[Time for change]

21. What board(s) are you referring to? n/t

[jedr]

24. If the polls are true , then you're dealing with "dead enders"

and trying to talk to these people is like trying to teach a pig to sing ( and you know the punch line that goes with that)

[Barbra Whiner]

25. What to do, what to do......

Well PP, it sounds like there's only one thing left to
do...try harder.

[ArkDem]

27. I can't stand it when people disagree with me either.

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. LOL! Yeah, that's pretty much the size of it.

[ArkDem]

30. I think when you are younger it is easier to see another POV and

I think when you get to senior citizen status that ability usually returns.;)

[Pacifist Patriot]

31. Well I'm firmly in between the two so I guess that clinches it.

Cheers!

[damntexdem]

32. You must have gone to Volconovo.

A bunch of rightwing yahoos on there.

[Bouncy Ball]

33. What someone else mentioned here is true.

Asking them question after question after question is fun, too. Seriously. Ask them questions with all kinds of twists and turns, so they have no idea where you are going. Don't make them so hard they can't answer them, but do make them a bit difficult; two-part questions are especially nice because they never answer both parts, so you can ask follow-up after follow-up about the second part of the question.

Really the only thing you can do with dead-enders is toy with them. But the questions and THEIR answers (really non-answers) do get lurkers thinking quite a bit. So that's the good part.

Plus it drives the dead-enders crazy. If they start refusing to answer questions, just throw out very innocent comments about how they obviously can't answer any questions about their positions, so they must be indefensible.

[melody]

34. These guys are whatcha call "stupid"

Seriously, the Rove contingent has brilliantly played the ignorant, through appealing to their ego and emotional needs with right-wing radio simple-minded manipulation. The racists (also stupid) were already on board. And a sociopath steers them all on toward bedlam.

[tlsmith1963]

35. I Call it "The Coldness"

And it still shocks me. You think I would have gotten used to the behavior of neocons by now. But I haven't. I cannot believe that they could actually be members of the human race. I think it's pointless to debate them anymore. Just fight them. They have to be stopped.

Tammy

[Fire Walk With Me]

36. Imagine how bad it could get if you don't resist.

Keep up the good fight.

[cbear70]

37. debating is impossible nowadays

I came here and was going to start a new post but will just add to this. I too used to enjoy debating but for some reason find it impossible to debate with people these days.

I just got off the phone with a dear friend, despite the fact she is a diehard Bush person who bends over all the time for him. I try so hard to stay away because you cannot debate with her about anything. Tonight she was singing Bush's praise again and when we started discussing the hurricane, she mentioned global warming..and then for some reason started trashing "tree hugging" Gore. Out of frustration, I told her in very not debate like format, that he was so much better than her leader, the idiot..phone went quiet and we changed the subject.

I have so much anger when it comes to this administration. In the beginning I tried to debate and reason but its impossible and it the recent years damn near impossible. I am so pissed off all the time, I just want the day to come where the Democrats are in control again. I am so tired of the bend over mentality that republicans have. Its like they have all gone freaking nuts and have been brainwashed. They just repeat things over and over like robots. Its pathetic. If they could only hear themselves and how riduclous they sound repeating their republican catch phrases. Not a one of them can actually carry on a conversation, much less a debate.

It is so easy to give up. Especially when we do not seem to have a leader emerging... what are we to do???

[NNN0LHI]

38. They have the same mind set as a drunk who needs to hit rock bottom...

...before they will understand the real meaning of words like empathy, sympathy, and compassion. And not the dictionary meaning of these words either. They need to understand the "real" meaning of these words. Then they will become rational enough to reason with...maybe?

Don

[applegrove]

40. When you meet freepers - keep in mind some are paid "role-players"

and their only job is to stop any discussion of the facts and teach us to act on our baser instincts.

Hang out here because those people are not allowed to log on and disrupt the discussion.

Then when you have the strength you could go back and try again. But keep in mind those people you run up against -many of them will not change their minds. Because they are not arguing how to better their country - they simply want it & all debate diminished.

[Cats Against Frist]

41. I actually met one of them on a poetry site

It was really creepy. I think the entire persona was made up, with a web page, and everything -- but this "woman," would basically paste articles from NRO and Horowitz's rag, and claim them as her own. For some reason, it seemed to me, like she had permission... It was very odd -- anyway, her handle was Linda Marie, and I handed her her ass BTW, so Rove's minions aren't invincible. I bet half of Freaky Pubelick are paid operatives -- starting with that "cripplecreek" asshole, who must spend his life on there. BTW, it doesn't make me "uncomfortable" for him to call himself "cripple," -- I'll go one further and call him a lame dumbass motherfucker.

[applegrove]

42. Oh - I am not saying they are nearly all "made-up". What I mean is

they are given "talking points" and do not deviate from that. So you are not talking to the person in the person. The ones who sit all day long and post - well we know they like their fancy suits so there isn't a chance they would donate that much time for free. Not when there are so many billions floating around Republican organizations.

Just keep in mind - when you are arguing with anyone - you never can tell. Just add a grain of salt to all your discussions. Accept that there are sheeps in sheep's clothing and then there are freepers in sheep's clothing. And the loudest bleaters are usually the latter. But you never really can tell. So when they start trying to get personal & insult you - move on.

[sweetheart]

43. There is no truth

There is only your opinion. There are no facts, there are just the
papers that scientists are paid to write. There is no human ingenuity,
the world is run by congress. There is no justice, there is only the
lies of a corporate state of extreme wealth distribution. There is
no equality, as only the wealthy have rights.

Only the wealthy have the right to an opinion, to speak it aloud, as
more than a ripple. And plutocracy has so eaten away any foundation of
a founder's democratic experiment, the wimbledon audience that has
watched from britain since 1776 is disappointed. The expectations of
the experiment were so incredibly high, and the profound tragedy of
the failure of the experiment to hold truth sacred is a warning sign
to all supposedly civil societies.

Everyone has their own religion, and we have freedom of religion in
america, that nothing is common except plutocracy and corporate
underwritten greed based desire-culture that has burned out the
civility in what was once a greeat sense of community on another
planet in an impossible science fiction parallel universe past
that never existed.

[tabasco]

46. I just found out today my half-sister from CA is a Bushbot.

This sad news has me wondering just how bad does it have to get, how low do the neocons take this Nation, before the People wise up and rise up. I am almost convinced another revolution is unavoidable. The super-rich own our Nation right now, and they are running it into the ground and stealing our resources. They don't care how their insane policies affect future generations of Americans, because THEIR people will be set to lord over the rest of us for generations to come. The battle has been going on for centuries and the front lines are now in America. I have become pessimistic that it will work itself out. Maybe I will feel better tomorrow.

:hi:

[Crunchy Frog]

49. I understand what you're talking about.

I've realized that I have become far more black and white in my thinking in the past few years than I ever was before. I too used to like to look at debates from different sides and stay in touch with alternate opinions. I no longer think that there are any legitimate "alternate points of view" on the far right. I'm far more likely to simply dismiss something out of hand without even looking at it. I am no longer willing to read columns by right wingers. I no longer will listen to or watch the RW screaming heads.

There is a wide range of legitimate points of view that I'm willing to look at and debate, but the RW has become a caricature of itself and of debate. Their M.O. is to simply say the most outrageous things that they can possibly come up with. There just isn't any point to debating them, since they are not intellectually honest and are not looking for honest debate.

I think that paradigm wise, I just about occupy a different planet from those people. This is what the extreme polarization of our country, along with the glorification of saying outrageous things simply for their shock value, has brought us too. It's really too bad. I honestly don't know how this country can ever heal from these kinds of divisions.

[earth mom]

51. I spent OVER A YEAR posting on a political forum...

that was part of a website that had a really broad mix of people, from all walks of life. While there were some good caring people on the political forum there, the rethugs there were the scum of the earth; ugly, nasty, inhumane, relentless and totally obnoxious! I fought them long and hard for just the reason you posted upthread-to not allow their lies and disinfo to sway lurkers who may not know enough to make an informed decision. But after the '04 stolen election, I finally realized that those evil creatures were totally draining my energy and poisoning me with their hate.

So I looked around and found DU. Since then, it's been a pleasure posting here at DU and venting about * Inc. with like minded (for the most part) people. :)

A couple of weeks ago I went over there to see what was what and I wasn't surprised to see the same old rethugs STILL there posting their hate. I swear, I think they must get paid to do so!!! :puke: