Why do many DUers like Bill (Big Dawg) Clinton but dislike Hillary?

[WI_DEM]

politically they are pretty much in harmony. Both are centrist Democrats, though at one time Hillary was considered the liberal conscience of the Clinton White House. Both are extremely bright and talented speakers though Bill is much more charismatic.

Just curious.

[youthere]

1. This should be good:

:popcorn:

[kstewart33]

2. She has no charisma, and her voice is hard-edged.

Both should mean nothing, but unfortunately today, it means quite alot.

[newscott]

19. That's exactly it. She can't sell it.

[AtomicKitten]

3. I LUV them both.

Always have, always will. They are a breath of fresh air that invigorated the Democratic Party and led us to victory. Of course, I'm prejudiced because I will never forgive the Rs for their jihad against them.

[formernaderite]

33. Led us to victory???

Oh, you mean because he won the oval office without a majority of voters....right. Not a problem since he managed to LOSE the congress and SENATE. Thank goodness the Republicans are complete morons...who against the publics own desire pursued Clinton for his sexual weaknesses, and managed to lose some of their seats as retribution.

I did vote for Clinton, but by 1997 realized he was just a place holder to nowhere.

[CottonBear]

4. We are all US citizens but only some of us are from New York.

Bill was elected nationally. Hillary was elected by New York state.

[wildhorses]

5. as for me

I pretty much don't care for either...

[jillan]

6. Me - I forgot how wonderful Bill was until I saw him all over tv

this weekend.

I am waiting for Hillary to give me a reason to vote for her.


(You should do this as a poll)

[Verve]

7. I'm curious too. I've often wondered if it might be a gender bias?

On the flip side, though, my staunch republican mother might just vote for Hillary if she ran. She loves and wants to support strong women and she thinks it's time for a woman in the WH. Yet, she said, "Just don't tell your father."

[mondo joe]

18. In many couples one partner is more charming and charismatic, the

other less so. Sometimes the more charming is the man, sometimes it's the woman - and it's true of same sex couples as well.

I really don't think it's gender bias. At least not for a lot of people.

[Verve]

20. Women who have assertive characteristics are seen more negatively

than men with the same characteristics. Even women can be biased against women.

[mondo joe]

27. Sure. But that's not true in every case.

I know plenty of same sex couples in which one partner is simply more charming. I'm in one of them. And I'm not him.

If we can recognize these differences in same sex couples we ought to be able to in differently sexed couples as well.

[firefox]

8. For one thing

He made his own name recognition. And a lot of us do not idolize NAFTA clear-cutting Clinton. But politics aside, the guy had true brilliance and charm. That is what made him so slick.

[mike_c]

9. DU has helped raise my understanding of politics in America...

...far beyond where it stood during the nineties, when I was a stalwart supporter of the Big Dog. I'm not nearly as big a fan today as I was then, and yes, it is that very centrism and focus on corporatism that I have grown to oppose. Clinton's foreign policies were especially at odds with my personal ethics more often than not. Today I'd prefer someone much further to the left of EITHER of the Clintons, and in particular, someone willing to tackle REFORMING the American political system rather than simply exploiting it, even for the greater good.

[true_con]

10. Well, for me

I don't understand what she stands for. She attacks the chimp for the war, but not only did she vote for it she continues to think we should stay there. Which is it? I would much rather see her stand up for what she believes in rather than try to be a slimy politician. She seems to want to be a liberal as long as no one seems to be looking, but when a camera is on her it's amazing how fast she jumps to the right to appear more centrist.

That is why I like the DU (and glad I found it). People here are not afraid to stand up as proud liberals/progressives!

That's my opinion at least.

[Larkspur]

11. I don't like either

I respect Bill for being a very competent President and politician, but his fornicating with Monica in the Oval Office helped fuel the rabid Republican machine to lead us to where we are now. Also under Clinton's term, the Dem Party decreased. He didn't do much to help the Party grow.

Hillary screwed up when she decided to champion the DLC wing of the Dem Party. Her vote for IWR when we all knew that Bush was spouting lies to justify his war proves that she is willing to sacrifice American citizens for her potential political gain.

[xiamiam]

23. your reasons are valid...and right on the money..whether we want to admit

or not...
she's hard edged...and plays politics...i am so tired of that from anyone...period...part of the old order that makes me gag...doesnt diminish my respect for her however or appreciation that she had the fortitude to be so established within a very rigid governmental patriarchy..
and bill ....always impresses me as someone whose ideology cares deeply about the future of humanity..and has the intelligence to create and determine meaningful steps toward that end....in that respect, i see bill as the visionary and hillary as the active movement...archetypical role reversal...
but you're right...no matter how insignificant it was to anyone, myself included, ..Bills little indiscretion is what helped get us here... I forgive him...but its true...

[Verve]

25. I disagree that Bill's indiscretion got us here.

If it wasn't his indiscretion, the repugs would have kept talking about White Water. They were relentless about finding fault with him!

[Larkspur]

31. But they could not impeach Bill on Whitewater

Bill's lying about his affair is what the Repukes seized on to justify a coup. Yes, it's true that most men having or had an affair will lie about it, but Bill should have just come out and said he had an affair and apologize for it and then asked the nation to allow his family and him some privacy for them to reconcile. The nation would have been angry but forgiving, especially since Bill was doing a fine job running the government.

Bill the great Dem politician screwed up on this issue and failed to see how the Repukes would milk it.

[formernaderite]

34. Well his indiscretion bought a little public sympathy, which

won us back some seats that HE managed to lose.

[question everything]

12. On reason may be the political path

though, in all fairness, we often seek someone from outside politics to lead us.

Bill Clinton had been in politics all his adult life - most of it. Started as being elected as AG of AK, then as governor. And we know that except for papa Bush, all the recent presidents were governors first.

I think that many still are ambivalent about her carpetbagging New York. Yes, many do so but still, she was never a NY resident until 2000.

And, as is true for too many women, one has to think about her path going through her husband. Of course, if one stops and think - had she not chosen to follow him she could have had her own brilliant career, either as an attorney or as an activist or as an elected official. But the reality is that she came to public life as Mrs. Bill Clinton (oh, how I despise this form of addressing any married woman!)

Of course, we know of many men who had similar path and no one would ever hold it against them. But women are different, as we all know.

It would be nice for her to build a resume of what a good senator she has been. Does she have any bills with her name on it? I don't know and I suppose it would been difficult in a Republican controlled Senate and White House. Has she done anything as a Senator that really made a difference? Again the Republican control may be a factor.

And, as many of us said about Kerry last year - Senators do not get elected Presidents. The last one was John Kennedy in 1960. I think that if she were a governor she would have had better chances.'

[Blue Belle]

13. I like Bill...

I remember thinking on 9/11 how I wish he was still the President. I like Hillary too... but, like a previous poster stated, she hasn't given me a reason to vote for her yet. She seems to be taking more giant steps to the right... and the more she does that, the further she steps away from me.

[peace frog]

14. Bill has all the charisma she lacks

but I do like Hillary Clinton... I just don't want her to run for president.

[bowens43]

15. She is probably

the most hated woman in America. I like her but as a presidential candidate she would be a disaster. She would bring more Republicans to the polls than Reagan did.

[Lena inRI]

16. Like, like, like. . .

what's to like. . .it's what comes out of their mouths (or what doesn't in Hillary's case) that matters. . .

For BOTH, if they had to choose between a community-based grassroots fundraiser and a business-professional fund raising dinner, they BOTH would choose the wealthy folks.

They may justify this by saying money wins elections. . .

but they lost my trust and loyalty as a result. Period.

Their being palsy-welsy with Papa Bush really turned me away!



:thumbsdown:

[mondo joe]

17. Because he is charming and she is not. Also...

... he tends to put a better face on the democratic party. He is, again, charming, but also sympathetic, compassionate, fun loving and is well spoken. Hillary rarely appears to be any of these things.

I really think they are best as a team - but even then better off with him as the face to the world.

[Nye Bevan]

21. They are both extremely intelligent, HOWEVER

Bill is one of the best politicians of all time. Hillary is not.

[edhopper]

22. She's my Senator

and I like her just fine. I like the Big Dawg, but felt he lacked conviction in some areas (welfare reform for one)
He is also an EX-president. Even "George I" gets a bit of a pass.

[nevergiveup]

24. Hillary is obviously brilliant but

she is a terrible speaker and she lacks "fire". Can you imagine her acceptance speech at the 2008 Democratic Convention? Billions and billions of red, white and blue balloons would not save her. I would vote for her but her candidacy on a national level would be a monumental disaster for our party.

[txaslftist]

26. I'm one. Loved Bill. Don't care for shrill.

I'll still vote for her if she gets the nom., but (a) I think we can do better and (b) I HATE putting close family members of other preznits in the White House. We ain't a dynasty for ruling families, no matter how nice.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. Dislike, no make that loathe, both of them.

DLC, pro-war, brown-nosing, appeasers, that they are.

[Nye Bevan]

29. You really "loathe" Bill after this?

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Former US president Bill Clinton sharply criticised George W. Bush for the Iraq War and the handling of Hurricane Katrina, and voiced alarm at the swelling US budget deficit.

Breaking with tradition under which US presidents mute criticisms of their successors, Clinton said the Bush administration had decided to invade Iraq "virtually alone and before UN inspections were completed, with no real urgency, no evidence that there were weapons of mass destruction."

The Iraq war diverted US attention from the war on terrorism "and undermined the support that we might have had," Bush said in an interview with an ABC's "This Week" programme.

Clinton said there had been a "heroic but so far unsuccessful" effort to put together an constitution that would be universally supported in Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050918/wl_afp/usweatheriraqeconomy_050918200308

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Yes, coupled with sheer contempt.

He seems to have left out the part about his support for the sanctions that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

Not to mention his active undermining of UN efforts to stop the genocide in Rwanda.

[pitohui]

30. because she's a woman, ya'll

by definition a woman can't be charismatic & if she is a powerful woman then by definition her voice is grating & her manner irritating

seriously

we have not come so far from the cave as we pretend

that's it in a nutshell, simple prejudice agn. the strong female

[Gidney N Cloyd]

32. "By definition" ?

I'm not following.

[jonnyblitz]

35. bullshit. many of us don't like her because of her centrist views.

it has nothing to do with her gender. you might be correct about the freepers though.

[sendero]

36. Or could it be..

.... that she was associated with the most monumental failure of the Clinton tenure (other than that pesky BJ), the Healthcare Reform fiasco?

Seriously. Someone PLEASE tell me of the great accomplishments of Hillary, because I'm obviously in the dark here.

Folks think she is going to ride in on Bill's coattails, not even his coattails are that long.

And folks seem to think that because she plays in NY she'll play in Peoria. Ever looked at an electoral map?

[formernaderite]

37. bullshit....I see Boxer as both passionate, strong and brilliant...

and feminine. You're living in a different century. It's all about Hillary personality and more importantly POLITICS.

[Throckmorton]

38. I have wood for Hiliary

she can jump my scooter anytime.

[Ron Mexico]

39. You lost me at "both are centrist Democrats."

Bill was, Hillary is not, and her recent steps towards the center aren't likely to fool anyone. I'd like Hillary a lot more if she just came out and supported everything she believes.

Hillary could run a perfect campaign, win every debate, pull babies out of burning buildings and whatever else, and she still won't get more than 49% of the vote. The Republican turnout against her would be massive.

I'm not her biggest fan, but even if I were I wouldn't want to run a candidate who has (in my opinion) no chance of winning. Give me Clark, Richardson or Gore. I just want the fucking White House back, so I'll take any Dem with a chance. In my opinion (I repeat: IN MY OPINION), Hillary doesn't have one.

[jsamuel]

40. I started getting scared when O'Reilly and Newt were talking all flowers

about her...

That is some scary sh/t.

[burythehatchet]

41. she has closed herself off to the world.

when she started campaigning with bill she had a great charm about her. She smiled a fair amount although in hindsight her demeanor may have been forced because there were already fidelity issues in the marriage. PM (Post Monica) she closed herself off to the people. She become cold and distant. She went into a super-wonk mode and has honed her policy positions incredibly well. I am totally impressed by her grasp of the issues. Its what bill and her have in common. So she became this super-policy analyst and forgot that politics is about sharing your vision. She has no appreciable vision that she has shared with me. I don't know what she stands for. One day she's called liberal next day she comes across as a Conservative. It all seems like she has to calculate every move. The lack of spontaneity hurts her a lot. Leaders are supposed to come out AHEAD of the masses. So bottom line, she's not (yet) a leader. But people change over time and someday she could be. Right now to me she is...

Cold
Pretty
Smart
Hard-working
Great mother
Hurt kind of person