let's speak plainly here folks

[nadinbrzezinski]

What is the GOP doing here?

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/House_Republican_Study_Committee_document_recommends_huge_0922.html

As you know they are planing to gut all social programs, and other functions of government, This has been their wet dream for many, many decades.

Now what the GOP is doing is laying the foundation for the Second American Revolution, no other way to explain it. We, the people, have been shoved off the process, our representatives have been emasculated. and government has been emasculated to the point, we are on our own.

So what will be the consequences of this?

1.- Revolution, if we have it in our heart. Our present condition is that of a people living in tyranny, not unlike the generation of the Founding Fathers, who fought a very LIBERAL and RADICAL revolution.

Of course the above assumes we have it in us to do what must be done, and demand our Representatives do their job, or we decide to do what is right.

2.- Civil War, very likely if we take power, why? the Right is THIS CLOSE to their wet dream and they will take up arms... why? They are THIS CLOSE... the civil war will start on the right boys and girls not on the left. And if this happens... I am foreseeing the end of this country and the emergence of three to four regional successor states, roughly based on the dominant ideology... yes Jesus Land will be one nation, under god, the christian god... and pretty closed off from the world... destined to go down into poverty and ignorance. California, Oregon Washington and maybe Colorado and Nevada will join into another, the Northeast into another, and well the Prairie states, one nation or be split between everybody else.

But the point is, the GOP in their greedy crony policies have been laying the foundation for these events, and they are sowing the wind, and the whirlwind is coming.

(On a historical note we were close to a revolution in 1932 and the New Deal stooped it, the violent kind that is)

Oh and don't expect the demorats to draw that line on the sand... you and I need to draw that line on the sand.

[SteppingRazor]

1. you and I need to draw that line on the sand...

And then get branded "traitors" and be massacred by the U.S. military. I'll pass. For now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. we either stand all together

or we will surely hang apart

Benjamin Franklin

[SteppingRazor]

5. Frankline said that at a time...

when the British military was armed with slightly mor-powerful muskets.

And we live in a time when... well, I'll let you fill in the rest.

Basically, the military can see at night time and pick off people a half mile away. They can also kill a few thousand people in one fell swoop. You can't do either of these things.

Revolution against the U.S. government is a last ditch, we're-all-gonna-die-anyway thing. It's doomed to failure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. then I guess you accept living in tyranny

we got the message

By the way a modern military can and will win a battle against a convectional enemy every day of the week and twice on Sunday....

Algiers, Nam and Iraq are proving that this same military is hampered by guerrilla warfare... which by the way the British were not willing or able to fight either in 1776... we got roundly spanked every time we faced them in close drill formations... but boy they hated our snipers who took out officers...

Read a little about that war... not as simple as you make it sound

[SteppingRazor]

13. "boy they hated our snipers who took out officers..."

Yeah. Pity the best shots in the country are all in the military.

A modern American revolution is an utterly quixotic campaign. It's doomed to failure, except with the possibility that the U.S. government doesn't have the stomach to massacre its own populace, and would therefore sue for peace and grant some concessions.
But if the government called the bluff of the revolutionaries, they'd all be killed or jailed eventually. Just a matter of time.
That said, if something started up tomorrow, I'm not saying I wouldn't lend a hand... I'm kinda stupid like that. :evilgrin:

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. And the police, still many of them Scout Snipers

have also retired from the armed forces, in fact more than we make... so don't count on it, As I said, a guerrilla war with suport of the population is a loosing proposition... and that is exactly how the Second American Revolution will be faught, Guerrilla

[SteppingRazor]

23. Right. Lemme know how that goes.

Talk is talk, as they say.

Like I said above, if something started up tomorrow, I'd lend a hand. But I don't see anyone taking to the streets with guns. Nobody's taking potshots at the people in power. And I don't expect anyone will.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. I am sure King George

didn't either... there is a limit of how far you can push a people

You stay home and enjoy the tyranny ok..

[SteppingRazor]

30. And you keep threatening to revolt on message boards, OK?

When something real happens, I'll deal with it then.

As it stands, I think revolting against the government in this day and age is an incredibly bad idea. That said, I wouldn't stand idly by if/when my people (by that I mean people like you, who share most of my political philosophies) decided to do it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I'm not threatening to revolt, giving an analysis of the

current situation and the consequences of the current situation, to quote another Historian, those who refuse to learn from history are bound to repeat it... guess who is repeating history? if you say the GOP, DING. DING. DING.

All I am saying is that their actions have consequences and the consequences will include, if they keep pushing, a revolution... a very violent revolution.

What does the good book say?

Oh yes

Sow the winds, for you will reap the whirlwind.

now you may choose to put your head in the sand, or realize it is coming... me I'd rather prepare as well as I can... for I see it coming... will it be violent? Mebbe, will it be peaceful (1932) mebbe, I have no way to know.. just that one is coming.

[SteppingRazor]

39. Ah! Now we're getting somewhere closer to agreeing...

Arguing with you has been kinda surreal (I tend to remember posters I comment on, and I'm usually saying "Yeah!" or "damn straight!" whenever I reply to one of your posts). Anyway, I do agree that we likely stand at the beginning of some social upheaval. I don't know that it will take the form people assume it will -- it could just be as simple as a huge resurgence for the Democratic Party. It could, God willing, mean a semi-permanent second-party-status for the Greedheads (my pet name for the GOP). I doubt it will be anything that will make the history books -- violence in the streets, that sort of thing.

At the same time, while this looks bad, the country has certainly faced far worse in its history. And given that massive upheaval has seemed to come on us in 80-year cycles (Revolutionary War, Civil War, then the whole Depression-World War II thing), It'll probably be another 25 or 30 years before the shit really hits the fan.
And that sounds about right to me. Americans aren't going to be angry enough to do something until things are a lot worse than they are now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. No we are not agreeing

I see the revolution coming in the next five years tops, and that is TOPS,

The fate of the RNC, will be a party that will die, conservatives will come in another form.

Things are as bad as they have gotten in the past... very close to 1932 in fact, and a great depression is coming

Oh and those cycles have accelerated, we are at the brink of something, and IMHO, not that I am leading it, it will be an armed revolt. The way they have gerymandered districts and now play with votes they have closed all avenues.

READ the American Declaration of Independence, for I am sure if Jefferson was alive today the document would look VERY similar.

[SteppingRazor]

44. Armed Revolt in Five Years? Yeah, we're not agreeing.

I don't think there's any chance of that happening. Too many people care more about the next episode of American Idol, and not enough about the next American war.

As for the Declaration of Independence, I can cite it almost word for word, along with the preamble of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I am sure I know what you're referring to (primarily the second paragraph).

(And please see my signature line. thank you. :) )

[DaveJ]

9. Conceivably...

part of the military might join in such as revolution.

[Richard D]

15. You are assuming . . .

. . . that the whole military will stay on the side of the government. Just speculative fiction at this point, but I'd be a lot of them, being from minority backgrounds, might join any revolution that might start. I'd hate to see this type of revolution though.

[melody]

29. That's all the stuff people told John Adams, too

They were a tiny group against the world's largest, most powerful military.

The thing we have that they didn't have is the internet - that is what counterbalances their arms. We can now broadcast what is going on here across the world. The US/US-siding-EU sells "human rights" as a stock-in-trade. What happens if the majority rises up and is driven down?

[SteppingRazor]

34. Sure. My point, though is...

That the parity between rag-tag guerrillas and the most powerful army in the world in 1776 was a lot closer than the parity in 2005.

That said, it certainly is an interesting point that, with the Internet, one can bypass the media and simply set up some official provisional New U.S. Web sites to get the word out.

But technology has advanced in all quarters, of course. If we've got the Internet, they've got clusterbombs. I remain convinced that, except as some sort of huge bluff, revolt against the government is a pretty bad idea. But like I said above, if the revolution started tomorrow, I'd probably join in anyway.

[nashbridges]

54. I think they'd take the internet down

If anything got started. It really wouldn't be that difficult to issue an order to the telecom companies to turn off the pipes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. oh it is amazingly easy

all the net goes down to five supercomputers, WE control, aka the US Government

[melody]

59. which would instantly signal to the rest of the world ...

That's my point.

If they can't sell the "USA is the hope of the world" Kool-Aide, they're going to have a very hard time selling anything else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. And remember

the most effective campaigns during that little disagreement with the Empire were Guerrillas .....

We invented modern guerrilla tactics... and the most modern of armies cannot face guerrillas. In the end they always loose...

[melody]

60. teenagers in pajamas kicked our butts in Viet Nam

[shadowknows69]

11. Just the fact that you fear that is why we must stand

No more easy ride. Time to stand or hide.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Yes it si time to decide

what side are you on...

[DaveJ]

3. That is one war I'd be glad to fight. nt

[CountAllVotes]

16. ...

:D

:kick:

[Bernardo de La Paz]

4. To answer your question, this is what the GOP Leadership is doing:

GOP Out in 2006!


.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Oh I know what they are doing

and I also know history, let them eat cake soonoer or later leads to....

Revolutions... and once that happens... truly all bets are off

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. It's almost like the rw needs to get their way, in order to get the

attention of the american voter. Once they realize that they have been gamed into supporting this shit with distractions about gay marriage and guns, it will be too late, it will be time to start over.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Same as in '32

and they lost poer for close to two generations, we may see the same happenign here... hence why I expect the RW to take up arms

[DoYouEverWonder]

37. The only arms the RWers are going to take up

are the ones on their easy chairs. That crew would never make it past lunch.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. that is our advantage but I expect

a McVeigh or Two and the Turner Diaries are still ahem, a-circulating all over Right Wing fan dom.

[DoYouEverWonder]

42. Odds are that there are always a few wackos

who will do crazy things, so what else is new? It's just BushCo wants everyone to believe that everyone else is dangerous and that the world is running rampant with terrorists. When if you got rid of the CIA and Spec Ops, most of the turmoil would stop.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Actually I will slightly disagree with you

countries do need Intel Services and even Spec Ops, just to know what potential enemies are doing or not doing... since time immemorial...

No I don't believe in the world will become a great kumbaya... but the US is no longer a super power... that much is clear... and this is part of it... another one of George's historical legacy, taking the last empire (China is on the rise) and gutting it

[DoYouEverWonder]

56. Even if we took just half the money we spend on Defense

and the CIA, and spent that money on things like alternative energy, stem cell research and a cure for AIDS, we wouldn't have to worry about enemies so much. Especially now that we've become our own worst enemy.

[hwmnbn]

12. I agree. I forsee an emergency insurgency....

springing up all over. Gated communities will become GOP "green zones" but the rest of America will be a "free fire zone"

Unless we peacefully stop the GOP now.

This GOP government does not represent me, my values, or my interests. They have stolen my tax dollars and lined their greedy pockets. By doing so, they've taken food from my children's mouth and hope from their future. I will not accept that. It has to change, one way or another.

[Solon]

14. The only question is the timeline...

For some reason, the American People have an extremely high tolerance for bullshit and being trampled on, despite our history. But, as you pointed out, back when Roosevelt was put into office, with a damn near 48 state electoral college vote, no Alaska or Hawaii yet remember, this country was in turmoil. It only took his leadership to get people to HOPE again, getting things DONE is what matters, not pretty rhetoric, and the Repukes are good at the rhetoric, just not the delivery. We can be distracted for only so long, and now, in this new century, we seem to be repeating the steps of the last one, just on a slighter faster scale, no Teddy to delay it a decade or two. We went though the "Roaring 90's" what's next is the question.

What is different now, than back then, is this, Bush is Hoover redux, but unlike Hoover, he stole elections twice, and I think people are waking up to that. Also, add to that the fact that the problems seem to be coming from one side, the side with power right now, that it IS a partisan issue, just like back then. However, coming up on 2006 and then 2008, I don't think the Democrats can sweep into either Congress or the White House, not without the Republicans willingly ceding power. I have not seen them even attempt real compromises since '94, they have power, I don't think they will give it up, even if it means destroying democratic institutions.

I would say that, given Bush's approval ratings(or lack thereof), that violence will be from the right, at first. However, this will be from the "besieged" fundies, and as we know from ALL fundies around the world, they prefer violence to compromise. Luckily, they comprise a little less than 20% of the population, regardless of what they want you to think. The apathetic I think are waking up, and THAT makes the biggest difference. We who have been calling out Bush since his inauguration are hardcore liberals, leftists, or just politically active, another minority. Its the apathetic middle that will make the difference, and they are turning to our side, and are just now waking up to what we knew all along.

If I were to guess at a time line, assuming a lot election fiascoes in the coming years, the Repubs in power will be clamping down HARD on us "malcontents" withing the next 6-12 months. This will further polarize the country, pretty soon, sporadic fights will break out, more or less along lines of whether you support the President or not. Most of these will be fights that are started by those on the right, but portrayed in the media as being instigated by us. Depending on the over reaction of this administration, we may see our Cold Civil War turn hot within 2 years, max. How the country will divide itself is a good question, it may not, as I said, these people ARE the minority, and the Majority are beginning to side with us. You need at least 25-30 percent of any given population on your side to sustain an insurgency. They will be outnumbered and desperate, prepare for more Timothy McVieghs, that's all I can say.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Why do the people tolerate the tyranny?

I have referred in the past to the Misery Index, which has been fairly low, or rather lower than the threshold necessary... but now I am willing to be it is over 70%, that is when the BS stops working and you may get riots...

I am counting on them stealing every seat in both houses next year. I am counting on a 100% Republican House and Senate (Yes worst case scenario) and the establishment of a police state...

As to revolution, it will start in different areas, mebbe brought up by the pukes who will go see we now have complete control, live with it... I am also counting on them rounding people up...

Hence I am counting on those who can leaving and those who want to stay, well staying...

And yes worst case scenario (they tend not to come to pass) the Gov'ment will shoot on the people and it will take several million on DC to get rid of them a la Ceausescu..

Now best case... the elections will be clean we will sweep the gov'ment and all of a sudden we will return to legal government and yes impeachment... that is a nice dream at this point, IMHO.

[Solon]

33. Two key reasons why they tolerate it...

First, most of Bush's policies do not directly effect the lives of most people, not in tangible ways, at least until now. Second reason is apathy, simple really, most people in this country feel they can't make a difference, so they don't even try. These are the people who either ignore history completely, or don't know about it, but this country has been in worst places before, and the ones who pulled it out of those situations were ordinary citizens who voted in the ballot box, lifted a pen or, in rare cases, lifted a gun.

All totalitarian regimes rely on these two points to keep power, they live in palaces made of cards that can fall at any minute if these things don't go their way. I feel the winds are changing in this country, and none too soon if you ask me. Hurrican Katrina has blown the blinders off of the People's eyes and the palace of cards the Repukes built is now beginning to fall down. We need to increase the pressure on them, before they shore up their defenses, and go for the figarative killing stroke, and make it impossible for them to cheat at the ballot box again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. I;ll offer a third reason

as bad as things are right now and I will contend they are as bad as they ever got in the past... there is fear... but they have the guns? So ... and your point (not you)... but what will happen the day after!

the ever so popular it is better to live under the tyrant you know than the tyrant that might rise.

[Solon]

51. You know that canard wouldn't happen if such resistance is...

organized from the bottom up. We aren't talking bread riots or destruction for destruction's sake, that is folly. What we need is true blue PLANS laid out as to what goals we would have, and layout the plan of action, along with time line and contingencies. Violence is to be only used as a last resort, and as self defence only, otherwise we lower ourselves to the level of the Faschist Reich Wing. BTW: You're right, fear is a great manipulator of the masses, but it hasn't really been working since 1 year after 911, since then it has been mostly apathy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Agree plans need to be laid out

and a strategy worked out.. problem is that most people still believe that they can work within the system... I will contend that is no longer possible

[catmandu57]

35. I believe you're correct Solon

It's the squishy middle that needs waken up, and they are waking. They've been lulled to sleep by the bread and circuses, but, now the bread isn't coming.
We talk of the moran's* base being somewhere in the range of 33% of the population, that leaves a huge majority subjected to the tyranny of fools.
I don't think the majority will embrace the vision the right has for America, especially the religious right, I'm not afraid of the military joining the other side, they've been used and used badly for the last few years, mauled in a guerrilla war stretched thin and treated badly when they do get to come home.
One of the things that pisses me off is being old and fucking crippled when fell deeds await, though to borrow a line from Tolkein I'll smite some brute before it's all over.

[sweetheart]

20. 3. Empire collapse

The historical collapse of empires happens when all the competence is
denied franchise and fools take the helm. And the titanic has a mighty
gash, taking in water, on every front, every other contenstant challenging
the once fabled power of a superpower, now little more than a fraud
running on fummes.

And if we look at empire collapse in its modern incarnations, the
reality always begins with an empty treasury.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Well that goes without saying

civil war or revolution means the end of Empire... that is why I did not even mention it.

Oh and by the way that is already well under way... the chinese set the terms with the NK, and dictated them to us as well... that speaks volumes.

;-)

[DaveJ]

22. One small problem...

If the U.S. started a revolution or civil war the Chinese, Saudis, etc, would take every advantage of such a divide and conquerer scenario.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. yes the chinese will advance their imperial power in Asia

and the saudis may actually collapse sa we prop them up....

For the most part people will watch and only recognize one side or the other once it is more or less clear who is winning... but why interfere in that fight? If I were China I would not.

[rniel]

25. To boil it all down into one little bit

POLITICIANS DON'T REPRESENT PEOPLE ANYMORE!!

and it's only a matter of time before people will not stand for that anymore.

[klyon]

27. The fact is that most states are not blue or red but purple.

This country is divided right down the middle 49% to 49% most states are a mix of right and left. Nothing so civil as dividing the country into regions is possible. Although I think the religious right would like to over run the east coast from Virginia south.

KL

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I'm not talking secession here

though the result of a civil war may very well be the balkanization of the country... along political religious and dominant lines... to think that this was fiction but twenty years ago for many... but now this may be in our future.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

28. "the Northeast into another"

Yes, a land where we don't take crap yet uphold animal right laws, intelligence and other great qualities :D the united states of the north east..one can only dream.

[Timmy5835]

45. You are also assuming.......

Our boys and girls in the military will walk in lockstep and kill fellow American citizens. Don't assume that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. I am not asuming that whatsoever

some troops will take orders, some will walk away and some will join the revolt... that happens every time there is an armed revolt

[ToolTex]

61. I remember Kent State, I think they will.

At least for a while.

[tkmorris]

62. Kent State was a different matter.

In fact more than a few Ohio NG quit after that. When deployed the NG there did not view their role as taking violent action against protestors. Tensions escalated over time ending in tragedy.

The scenario being discussed here is vastly different. In this situation the military would be asked to battle American citizens, not protesting but revolting, and in a cause that many military members would sympathize with.

Please note that any discussion of such an event should be viewed as an intellectual exercise only. Attempting to incite anything like this on an internet board would be both counterproductive and stupid.

[jim3775]

47. Some important things that need to be remembered

We at DU are in the minority. The majority have no interest in government and do not vote, read the newspapers/blogs, couldn't name their congressman, know who is running in the primaries or care about the state of the country. As long as people's regular daily lives don't get too disrupted (meaning people stay employed) nothing that you said in your OP is ever going to happen.

If you take for example other truly oppressive countries such as North Korea, some middle eastern governments, and many african governments, you will notice a trend:

True revolutions rarely happen.

Most people end up living with their oppresses above them and still going about their daily lives. The BBC did a report on a government in Africa (i can't remember the name of the country it might have been Namibia) it is one of the richest countries in africa because of oil and the diamond trade. The government purposely keeps the people poor and doesn't share any of the wealth. The government refuses to build any water infrastructure and instead forces the people to buy clean water from trucks that ride out to the villages. Now you would think that being forced to purchase your drinking water would make you want to throw out your corrupt government, right? So far the people are just going about their daily lives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. I know we are the minoroty

but I feel in my bones, something is coming and I haer more and more of the sheeple actually going, hmmm LOOK AT WHAT THEY ARE DOING!

[Stinky The Clown]

48. I'll posit an alternative scenario ......

We manage to win an election and take back one house of congress. Then we win the presidency. Then we put back what the RW has taken away.

At that point, the RW nutties will start that war, for pertty much the reasons you suggest. But we now control the military.

After much pain and angst, our new president sees the folly in holding together such a divided nation and diplomatically arranges a split.

Two countries ensue. The liberal country is both coasts and a stipe across our border with Canada. The conservatives get the south, some of the midwest, and the Gulf coast; they then hire Ariel Sharon to advise on the construction of the fence.

Or not .....

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. I actually foresee the balkanization of the country

into anywhere from three to four successor states, and that is one of the reasons

Of course we all may be Cassandaras

;-)

[mandyky]

53. It's long past time for liberals to form their own militias

Those survivalists in Idaho and Utah have theirs. Otherwise, we are sitting fucking ducks. We best embrace that second amendment before GWB proclaims only "patriots" can own guns or some such. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!!

[Tactical Progressive]

55. Thinking like that can be counter-productive

I realize it's just a release valve, but that's kind of the point. When you say 'The revolution is just around the corner' it is mostly out of frustration and helplessness, and gives a sense of 'you'll see, when things get bad enough we're going to kick ass' which is kind of a deferral. Like, just you wait, I'll do something then. Now, I know you don't mean you or we will sit on our hands in the meantime, but that kind of attitude lends the perception that one can sit back for now because later we'll step up when we have to.

In some sense the feeling of desperation and futility lends itself towards change better than any kind of - even emotional - prospective revolution that will change the day, when it becomes necessary. Simple human nature really. I say don't count on any revolution where the victorious citizens rise up against the capitalist ubermasters to regain the world. If it comes to that to finally get relief, there won't be much of a country to come back to for decades.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fantasy where I lead my team up the hill to throw the grenades into the freeper-packed pillbox. Tom Hanks can star in the movie version later. But really, freepers are nasty and there'd probably be Claymores.

We'd do better to fight this now without any sense that it could somehow work out in end in drastic measures.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Unfortunately this is not a fantasy

and I know what it means, but... I guess taht other bunch in 1776 was also living a fantasy...

No I don't expect things to get bad, they already are, hence why things are reachign that point

Oh and by the way, for me it is not a nice fantasy to crawl to a freeper pillbox and pull the pin and spoon and throw the hand grenade... been there done that, and nobody hates war more than people who have been there done that... it is the last resort, but the last resort is coming