Dem leaders should be ashamed that they didn't come out in support of us

[me b zola]

I don't care that there were *some* people their that had other agendas besides getting the troops out of Iraq. There will always be splinter groups who will use whatever forum that they can to spread their message, too bad.

The overwhelming majority of people who came from across the country to march on DC were there to bring out troops home and stop the killing in Iraq. Period. Even repukes joined us because ending the war was the message and is why we gathered.

How difficult is it to, if asked by reporters if Senator so-in-so also supported all of the other issues, for a Senator to flatly state that they were there because they want to bring the troops home and that is the only cause that they were supporting, just like the overwhelming number of people that were there?!

Congresswoman McKinney is the only elected official that I heard speak at the rally. She is my hero. I saw her before she spoke and all I could think of to say to her (with tears in my eyes) was "Thank you, Congresswoman for joining us." Her face lit up and she smiled very warmly at me and said "You're welcome". I will never forget that moment. :hug: :loveya:

The real reason that elected Dems were not there (except for Congresswman McKinney), is that they still haven't found the courage to say that it is time to end the Iraq war. They haven't the courage to say that that they were lied to about the reason why they voted for the Iraq War Resolution.



Shame of the rest of Congress. Shame on our elected officials for not representing us. Shame.

[Child_Of_Isis]

1. Shame on our elected officials for not representing us

They have no shame.

[me b zola]

60. Let me say this about the OP

I was only reporting what I witnessed. I know that a couple other of our most respected Dem LEADERS were supposed to speak. Whether they did or not does not make me look down upon them because, as we all know, there have been a small handful that have consistently spoke on our behalf. If any of these patriots were not present does not take anything away from all that they continue to do on behalf of the American people and the Constitution.

My entire point with this thread was to prick the conscience of the Democratic Party which has been largely silent (or wrong) on the issue of the Iraq War. I also did not intend for this thread to be a place to complain about specific elected official. This was meant to demand that the Democratic Party, as a whole, come out firmly against the Iraq War.

The absence from the march, for many, was a symptom of the absence of representative government on whole. We know who the patriots are who stand up and fight for us everyday. It's the rest of the party that we need to reach.





Child_Of_Isis, I'm sorry for attaching to your post, but there were some who were not sure of what I was posting and it was too late to edit. I owe you one. :D

[eleny]

2. There's even a House caucus of Reps wanting to end the war

So, over 60 are already on record to be against continuing in Iraq. Maybe one of the speakers could have read off their names. That would have been a hoot!

[me b zola]

8. That would have been nice

I know that there are some House members who have come out against the war, and Finegold in the Senate. It just so frustrating. This should be the majority opinion in our Congress.


I just got so irritated watching the freepers attempt at a rally. Their turnout sucked because no one but most severe of the nutcases supports bush* or his war anymore. But I saw at least 3 elected repukes speak at their rally. :mad:

[BrklynLiberal]

3. You are right. WHERE ARE OUR LEADERS???

[Southsideirish]

5. We have none - even Howard Dean has let me down. We need a new

party.

[Toasted_Halo]

24. They only care around election time I guess.

[Ladyhawk]

109. It looks like we are the leaders. In times past, the politicians have

followed where the people lead. I hope they'll do it again if we smack them upside the head. Helen Thomas replied to one of my e-mails, saying we need to hold the Democrats' feet to the fire.

Maybe I should take her advice and daily write to my representatives, both local and national. I'm disappointed with Feinstein and can't stand Radanovich. And I don't even know who runs things on the county level.

[leetrisck]

4. Oh yeah, can just see them up there with ANSWER

with nobody else in sight. A real winner. Smart move on their part not to be there. We acted like we didn't know about ANSWER but we really did and chose to ignore it. They've done it every time. I'm very sorry the attention was taken from the march because it was fantastic.

[Southsideirish]

7. Glad that you think its "smart" for Dem's to act in a craven and

selfish manner when they should be standing up for what's right. What is more important, upholding a principal or protecting your own fat butt?

[Blue-Jay]

10. It's not craven nor cowardly to not want your face seen with ANSWER.

[Mari333]

15. I agree.. Its terrible PR to be associated with ANSWER

and no politician will be onstage with them, and I dont blame them. Heres hoping United for Peace and Justice runs the next rally.

[me b zola]

13. There will always be splinter groups that try to attach themselves to us

So we should just quit and go home? Never. Most people just tuned them out like Mr zola.

I really don't want to be "represented" by someone who does not posses the verbal skills to convey to whom ever may try to attach other agendas to them that the only message that they were there to support was the "bring home the troops" message.

[KittyWampus]

22. ANSWER is NOT a splinter group that's attached itself to the anti-war

movement.

They are a powerhungry group that exists for its OWN benefit and is using the anti-war protestors the same way the Neo-Cons use racists and homophobes to draw crowds and garner votes.

[MADem]

25. Yep, if I were a politician, I would not have touched that with a fifty

foot pole.

Now, if Rob Reiner put together a rally, that would a great venue...but those ANSWER folks are just way too far out there...

[PassingFair]

28. This is a BS argument!

We should have had OUR OWN STAGE.
ANSWER didn't hold a monopoly on stages at the mall.

The absence of Dems is inexcusable.

The only reason ANSWER is prominent, is because our elected officials refuse to take a stand.

Howard, if they have you in a corner...then it's time to take your marbles and start a true populist party.

[MADem]

66. That begs the question, who is WE???

If elected leaders were running around organizing rallies, I just might have a problem with that, like I did for that JUSTICE SUNDAY exercise. The job of elected personnel is to represent the people.

If someone wants to put on a rally and invite them to speak, fine, but I wouldn't ally myself with ANSWER if I were an elected official--it is just asking for defeat, indeed, begging for it. They are too far out there to appeal to the mainstream, and the GOP would not have to look further than CSPAN to get some priceless video for their attack ads.

Any stage placed ANYWHERE on the mall would have been viewed as subordinate to ANSWER.

A separate venue, on a different day, is certainly preferable, sponsored by a group with a single focus, like, say, IRAQ VETS AGAINST THE WAR.

[librechik]

74. out there is ok, we have a big tent--just not on THAT DAY

That day was to focus on the Iraq war. At least, that was what I was led to believe. Are they just so beholden to certain funding sources that ANSWER CAN'T organize an event for that alone?

These people are just fine on the fringe. However, their seizing of the leadership position gives the wrong impression. We need to pay as much attention to image as we do to framing. Nobody is at the wheel.

[MADem]

83. I say let's encourage a single issue group to run the next one

It will take money, and we all have to be prepared to chip in.

[Melinda]

117. Dem Leaders follow "Winds of Change"; appearances come long after intial..

organizing begins. It's how political landscape is formed - history bears this prevelant fact out.

Hell, even Tom Hayden went mainstream.

[demnan]

6. Nominated.

One of the speakers mentioned the lack of Democrats there at the march saying to paraphrase, "Capitol Hill is equally responsible for allowing this war to happen." That got a huge round of applause (from me!) and others.

[MountainLaurel]

9. Vichy Dems n/t

[tridim]

11. The real Dem leaders were there

Jessie Jackson, Cindy Sheehan and 150,000 patriotic Americans.

[me b zola]

55. and Congresswoman McKinney

:loveya:


We can't forget her, or all that she has done for the people. She truly embodies representative government.


:loveya: :patriot: :loveya: :patriot: :loveya:

[Lecky]

12. I'm glad they didn't attend an ANSWER rally n/t

[me b zola]

16. Was it an A.N.S.W.E.R. rally?

I flew to DC (Maryland) from Oregon to attend a peace/anti-war rally.

So did so many other thousands of people that no one could count us all. We came to end the war.


WE CAME TO END THE WAR.


Are we going to sit in the corner and be afraid to speak because a handful of people out of millions of us have a different agenda?

Not me. And I vote for someone who will represent me.

[Lecky]

19. It was organized and funded by A.N.S.W.E.R yes...

While I can sympathize with some of their causes...especially the war in in Iraq, that particular organization does not speak for the majority of Americans.

Since you were there you saw something completely different from what I saw on C-SPAN...

Not only will I vote for someone who will represent me but I vote on someone who would best lead this country into the right path, I couldn't care less if they attended an anti-war rally or not. I know for a fact that if a Democrat were in the White House in 00', there would not be a war going on in Iraq right now.

[Coexist]

100. I, too, watched it on C-SPan and the war seemed to almost be a side note

to the speakers. ANSWER funded the stage- so they controlled the message. Such a shame.

[countmyvote4real]

14. They should be voted down in the primary elections.

With Dems like these, who needs Repubs?

[madfloridian]

17. No, this is getting of control.

Those who chose to attend, fine. Those who chose not to attend, fine.

We turn off those rallies when all their agendas are pushed, because it is embarrassing. In the past we got people to watch them, but they turned them off when they started all the other things.

Answer can have their agenda. The anti-war people should know by now not to hook with them. It happens every year this way.

Talk about one-issue people.....you guys are worse than us women and our rights.

[Lecky]

20. Amen! n/t

[willing dwarf]

18. A movement in search of strong leaders.

Until we're united we'll continue to be divided into smaller and smaller groups--loosing strength, loosing our voice, constantly talking over each other.

In DC yesterday we really needed stronger leadership and the strength of a coalition. It's just not there yet. It's sorely needed and wanted. Stay tuned to see what leadership might emerge. I'm hopin for fresh strength and vision.

[prof_youngblood]

21. Maybe John Kerry can explain motives to not showing up/ I would like

to learn the pro's & cons of disassociating one's self from war protests
Guess they're not for withdrawing the troops? -- whatelse can it be?

[eggman67]

39. Yeah he could've stood...

... right between to the guy declaring "I am a communist." and the one claiming "All of Israel is occupied land." Hell, he could've even worn a "Free Mumia" t-shirt.

That would've put him in solid :sarcasm:

[bvar22]

40. If our celebrity Dems would show up and speak out.....

...no one would notice the the fringe eccentrics. They would die from lack of oxygen.
The celebrity Dems are ALLOWING these people to be the focus.

Can you IMAGINE if Kerry called out for loyal Democrats to join him in DC to protest the WAR???!!!!!
Millions would come.
No one would speak for Mumia.

[eggman67]

43. This is about yesterdays debacle

ANSWER controlled the speakers, and you can bet your ass that the guilt by association bullshit would've headlined every paper today.

I'm grateful to my elected representatives for having the comm sense to stay away from those assholes.

I'm fucking sick of the media peddled perception that Democrat=commie. Until we disassociate from the ANSWER scum, we're going to have a hard time countering that perception.

[bvar22]

45. What better way to dissociate from them....

...than by having our celebrity Dems control the microphones?
A fringe group like ANSWER was able to put 500,000 people in the streets yesterday.


Imagine how many people would come if the celebrity Dems organized the event and called the loyal?

Of Course, there would always be the armchair activist group at DU who could rationalize a reason so that they wouldn't actually have to get off their ass.

[eggman67]

47. We're talking at cross purposes

I'm not saying they shouldnt have their own event, but I will not criticize them for not attending ANSWER's event which is what this thread is about. ANSWER owned the permits and the stage. In other words the mics were ANSWER'S mics.

[bvar22]

23. A kick and a nomination!

It seems to me that ANY politician who sees 1/2Million people marching in the street would get the idea that these are votes and activism looking for a Political Leader!

Why are THEY ignoring US!!???

It will be a TRAGIC mistake to take OUR votes FOR GRANTED AGAIN while they pander to the RICH Corporations!!!




Republican GREED has now KILLED more Americans than Al Qaeda!

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners)
at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Chi-Town Exile]

26. Oh For God's Sake Grow Up!

Who are you going to vote for? Nader?

It was this kind of attitude that has handed the country over to the Republicans. Because we had people that had to back their vanity candidate Ralph Nader and still cling to the notion that there was no difference between Gore and Bush we are sinking further and further into darkness.

The Republicans stay on message while we goof around with agendas from Mumia to God knows what.

The reason we don't have any leaders in the Democratic Party is we don't have a clear voice or vision.

Our only motivation right now should be getting out of Iraq and getting rid of Bushco. You can start moving toward all the other causes ONCE you get back into power. We can't even get our representatives to be heard in congress at this point, let alone any where else.

[Beam Me Up]

27. Your opinion. That's all it is. It is not the truth, just your opinion.

A very strong argument can be made that what has "handed the country over to Republicans" is the Democratic pandering to the wealthy. There are so many people who are just FED UP with being shafted time and time again by both Democrats and Republicans alike that many just GIVE UP in dismay. Don't tell me there is no room to criticise the Democratic party. I call BULL SHIT.

[Chi-Town Exile]

29. Where did I say that you can't criticize the Democratic party?

Criticize all you like, God knows I do.

I was just pointing out that if people had voted for the DEMOCRATIC candidate in 2000 things might be quite different now.

Personally, I believe that the majority of the Democratic leadership has their heads planted firmly up their asses.

But, we have an unusual opportunity right now to get middle America back by hammering the "Get out of Iraq now" message whenever and wherever we can.

A majority of Americans are sour on the Iraq war, now is the time to act.

[Beam Me Up]

38. So, you think it was people voting for third parties that cost Gore the

2000 elections and not Florida disenfranchisement of voters, corruption of vote count and the US Supreme Court?

You believe Kerry lost in 2004 because he didn't have a majority of votes in Ohio?

I believe the evidence points strongly against you.

Gore won. Kerry did too.

The man in the White House is an interloper and the people who put him there and keep him there are nefarious profiteers of war.

[Chi-Town Exile]

50. Man, you must be Psychic

Because you seem to know everything I'm thinking. If we must let's beat the dead horse once again ... (it's so boring to watch Naderites spin their disaster)

Let's put it this way, anyone with a brain knows the Florida debacle was a complete and total fraud, but voting for a 3rd party that couldn't possibly win didn't help the situation.

Since the election was ultimately *won* by such a minuscule margin, those votes that went for Nader certainly would have put Gore over the top and Florida would not have been an issue.

And it would have also been helpful if Al had won his own freakin' state.

Stick to your own agenda and keep my thoughts out of it, you have no freakin' idea what I'm thinking and I certainly do not need you to put words into my mouth.

[Beam Me Up]

57. Perhaps I owe you an apology for putting words in your mouth.

You are right, I shouldn't do that and for that I apologize.

Then again, perahps you owe an apology to bvar22 for insulting his maturity with "Oh For God's Sake Grow Up."

We do have differences of opinion here and insults are generally not appreciated.

[bvar22]

33. The reason....

You said:
"The reason we don't have any leaders in the Democratic Party is we don't have a clear voice or vision."


I respond that the reason we don't have a clear voice or vision is that the Democratic Party has become so polluted with Corporate Money that it can no longer CLAIM to be the voice of the Working American!!!

The fact that the Party Establishment CAN take us for granted has allowed them to drift ever RIGHTWARD chasing the imaginary centrist voter and Corporate bribes.
Then they wonder why 40 MILLION Democrats don't bother to vote!!!

I voted for a PRO-WAR, Anti-LABOR Democrat in the last election. I WASTED my vote!
I WILL NOT vote AGAINST my own interests again.
I am NOT alone!

I think maybe YOU had better wake up!
Not fot God's sake, but for your own sake!



The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners)
at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[LittleClarkie]

51. If that was who you thought John Kerry was

and if that's was your attitude in the last election, then I'd kinda rather you went your own way.

You're not doing the Dems any good if that's your attitude toward them. Go where you can make a positive difference. Those of us staying will be the stronger for it.

[LittleClarkie]

35. Indeed, and it was that lack of leadership

and organization in the Dem Party that was a factor in how things went in the last election, no matter what folks thought about our candidate.

Part of winning nationally will involve getting the party organized. Which is one of the reasons I joined the thing last spring. It's the only game in town I see in any position to go after what's wrong in this country.

I can't bring myself to say that people shouldn't support any little candidate they want if they feel he represents what they feel. But sometimes I feel like we're eating our own tail (is that the right metaphor?)

[bvar22]

37. If you subscribe to the "Vote for the Democrat No Matter What" theory,

the appropriate metaphor might be "marching to your own funeral".


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners)
at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Lecky]

53. Exactly!

[Beam Me Up]

30. Did not CONGRESSWOMAN BARBARA LEE also address the demonstration?

Lee is MY CONGRESSWOMAN -- and I stand with her against this war and against the Bush Cabal. I wasn't there but this is from her web site:

Barbara Lee To Address Anti-War Rally In DC

Friday September 23, 2005

(Washington, DC) – On Saturday, Congresswoman Barbara Lee (D-Oakland) will address the tens of thousands of Americans gathered in Washington DC to call for an end to the war in Iraq. The following are excerpts from the text of her remarks:

“My friends, it is past time to bring an end to this unjust, unnecessary war in Iraq. It has claimed the lives of tens of thousands, it has cost us hundreds of billions, and it has made our country and the world less safe. As the daughter veteran, let me tell you we must support our troops, and the best way we can support them is by bringing them home.
…
“The human cost of this war has been terrible. It has undermined our nation’s standing and made the world less safe, but this war is also sowing destruction right here at home.
“Hurricane Katrina has shown the world what you and I have long known: that America should be fighting poverty at home, not an unnecessary war in Iraq.
“So we must end this war, and we must ensure that the most vulnerable among us do not continue to be collateral damage.

“Who do you think will pay the price for the $250 billion dollars we have spent in Iraq thus far? Will it be Bush’s wealthy friends, with their tax cuts? Will it be the oil companies, with their price gouging? Of course not. The cost of this war will fall on those who can least afford it.

“Look at the record: The Bush administration has deserted the 45 million Americans without health insurance. They have abandoned 37 million people to poverty, here in the richest nation in the world. They’ve ignored Osama bin Laden, but they’re going to cut Medicaid and food stamps to pay for this war in Iraq. I ask you, is that what America should look like?”

Lee, the most senior Democratic woman on the House International Relations Committee and Co-Chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, voted against authorizing the President to use force in Iraq and offered a substitute measure that would have required renewed weapons inspections and diplomacy. She has authored a bill, H.Con.Res. 197, to make it US policy not to have permanent military bases in Iraq. She has also led efforts to demand answers to the questions raised by leaked British memos as to whether the Bush administration “fixed” intelligence in order to justify the invasion of Iraq, and introduced a bill to renounce the doctrine of preemptive war.

[me b zola]

56. McKinney was the only one that I saw/heard

That, of course does not mean that I may have missed someone. It was also my understanding that Rep. Conyers was supposed to be there, but I did not hear him speak.

Here. I'm going to attempt to do a late edit to my post by piggybacking on the first response.

No worries :hi:

[seabeyond]

31. has parties ever participated in the marches of "we the people"

their job isnt to be in the mass marching. their job is to be in congress, doing the work from the senate and house. the way it works.

i am sorry you are disappointed the dem leaders arent walking this the way you think they should. i think the dem leaders have been kicking butt since this second term and have accomplished a lot. i look forward to the future to see all else they are able to accomplish and i will be there to support them

[Bonhomme Richard]

32. You are not "getting it" The "Leaders" don't support you or......

me or anyone else who might want a more civil, fair, and caring society. There isn't any money in it.

[LittleClarkie]

34. What about the people on the board who didn't come out

should they be ashamed as well? I see many people who had a problem with the way the rally was run. If we can't agree it was a good thing, then I don't see why we should be down on the politicians who opted out.

[me b zola]

59. Absolutely not!

This is how I see it. The majority of the American people, regardless of their political party, now believe that the Iraq War is not going well and want it to end. We live (we think) in a representative government, and expect for our voices to be heard and responded to.

An elected official did not need to be present at the march to give their support to the voice of the people. We have a small handful of representatives whom have come out with statements saying that they support the withdraw from Iraq, but not nearly the number that would be representative of the number of Americans speaking out. A simple statement of support would make good use of the grassroots movement sweeping the country at the same time as adding strength to that movement.

Another thing that I have seen on this thread that I did not intend was the singling out of specific officials. My thought was to prick the collective conscience of the Democratic Party, not to trash ones pet most hated Dem.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. I agree

I wrote my Dem congressman today and told him I will not be voting for him when he is up for re-election unless he supports an immediate withdrawl of our troops from Iraq. I told him that while he was on vacation in August, an antiwar movement started down in Crawford, TX and he and the other Dems had better wake up and pay attention.

[Singular73]

41. I gave up on spineless democrats long ago.

Fuck em. We will vote in a new batch.

Democratic party needs to be gutted.

[ElectroPrincess]

73. I'm with you and I feel that there are MANY MANY more on board :-) n/t

[Silverhair]

42. They can't be seem to be associated with ANSWER. NT

[Walt Starr]

44. When the "splinter group" is a sponsor, has all the permits, and controls

the stage, I'd be ashamed of any elected officials stupid enough to come in common cause with Communists.

[ElectroPrincess]

71. Yeah, well those COMMIES at least have spines

Where are our so called Democratic Leaders? Answer: Kissing the a**es of their corporate masters.

I'm no commie - but - I'm sick of IN-ACTION. I don't have to be guilt-tripped because I choose to march along side of folks who are further to the left than myself.

That's the Right Wing's taking point. Why are YOU using it?!?

[malaise]

119. And that's the truth

As I posted yesterday too many Big Dems and little dems continue to look over their shoulders worrying about what the right wing think of them. You don't remove corporate fascism without broad alliances. It's about unity and large numbers.

[tomg]

46. Lets us say for the sake of argument that ANSWER

ran the show entirely. And let's say for the sake of argument that ANSWER is, what a radical Trotskyite ( or is Stalinist) organization that fulfills every McCarthyite fantasy. And let us say, again for the sake of argument, that ANSWER does not represent the majority of Americans and they are off message. Okay. Three major concessions (none of which I am willing to concede in the real world, but here to make a point). That still does not excuse the Democrats and their leadership from not being there.
My town judge was there. And he is not connected to ANSWER. I was there, and I'm not connected to ANSWER. The Bread and Puppet Theatre was there, and they are not connected to answer ( and they rock). There were people from Democratic Underground who were not ANSWER. There were sisters from the Order of Saint Joseph who were there, and last time I looked. they were part of Answer
In fact, who says the Dem leaders even had to speak. Save for very few speakers ( like Cindy Sheehan), most of the speakers were not really listened to. Save when there is a great moral presence ( and yes, I have seen and heard some of them, including Dr. King - and while Cindy Sheehan doesn't have the rhetorical power, she has a moral gravitas), we've never listened. We are the choir. At most, they are cheerleaders at the rally.
But can you imagine a contingent - just like, say, Code Pink was a contingent - of elected official dems - senators, house of reps, governors, maybe with a banner, lined up like all of the rest of us. Not at the front of the line, but marching with us, not because they were in the limelight, but because it was right. Picture that.
As far as I'm concerned the real leadership was there. And it was us.

[mcscajun]

48. You're never going to find our Democratic leaders under an A.N.S.W.E.R.

banner.

Never.

You won't find me there, either, and there are plenty at DU who agree with that.

[Rex]

49. Didn't want to be associated with ANSWER.

The MSM would just LOVE that. Still, stand up and fight you Dem leaders! Show up and take COMMAND of the rally! Take up the mike and AMAZE us!

Awesome pics of the rally! Peace is the way!

[NVMojo]

52. makes one wonder how many are really neocons!!!???

:hurts:

[paineinthearse]

54. Are you calling Rep. Conyers "MIA"?????

See: "John Conyers' role at this weekend's events" - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2110745

http://www.conyersblog.us/archives/00000251.htm

Blogged by JC on 09.23.05 @ 07:38 PM ET

This weekend's events

I know that many people will be coming to Washington for the End the War on Iraq rally here this weekend. This event will show the Bush White House how widespread the opposition is to the administration's war. I hope to see you if you can make the trip.

At 10:30 Saturday morning I will be at the rally in front of the Washington Monument. At 11:30 I will lead the march through Washington alongside Cindy Sheehan.

On 10:00 Sunday morning, I will be speaking at the Progressive Democrats of America's Grassroots Strategy Day at the University of the District of Columbia's Clarke School of Law.

Sheesh!

[me b zola]

63. I cannot imagine *ever* speaking a bad word about Rep Conyers

I revised my OP. Please read post #60.

[ladylibertee]

58. Wait, Wait Now, I am FIRST in line to criticize our Democratic

leaders when they do not lead.I have expressed my utter disgust in Feingold and Kohl for being cowards and misrepresenting Wisconsin Democrats by voting YES to confirm Roberts, but as far as our Senators not showing up to the Protest Rallies is different.I do not think it is a good idea for a politician to be at either a pro or anti rally.They have to send a clear message.One that is not mixed with any, well as you said
snip

I don't care that there were *some* people their that had other agendas besides getting the troops out of Iraq. There will always be splinter groups who will use whatever forum that they can to spread their message, too bad.

The truth is, it would be too bad and because they would not be able to answer for all the groups different agendas they would be open for major political attack .They represent the Democratic Party of The United States of America.Not everyone there was from the U.S. and I'm sorry, even I couldn't understand what lady they were talking about that was a Bush Puppet?Our Democratic Leaders should stay away from stuff like that when they are in office.We know they're hearts are with us.Hell, we all saw old films of John Kerry before Congress.Was he at the rally? No,but the ENTIRE country knows he is against this war.John Edwards spoke at an event in Iowa think, and expressed views about the war.So,I do not think they should be there.Retardican Leaders were not at the Pro-War rallies but we all know they are for it.Just a thought.:patriot:

[fujiyama]

61. Yeah all those Dems that don't stand right by ANSWER

are vichy Dems and traitors. :sarcasm:

Spare me the self righteousness. I am not one to defend DLCers, but this is nuts. I frankly didn't expect them to show before the protest and simply kept quiet because so many seemed to expect so much from this. So many people railed that Dems were spineless for not attending a rally.

Well, now I guess many know that ANSWER is a group (or collection of groups) that is really not very trustworthy. I am glad that Dem politicians showed decent judgement in not attending the demonstration.

ANSWER is not operating within reality. They have a bunch of demands and want them solved immediately. Some demands seem reasonable on the face of it, but I'm wary of groups that feature apologists of dictators as featured speakers.

[me b zola]

62. Slow down. I didn't call any one any names.

And self-rightious? Not me. Please read post #60.

[fujiyama]

64. I understand your frustration

with Dem politcians and their cowardice in either being incapable or unwilling to address the war and its consequences.

But ANSWER isn't the answer. Aside from the fact that their message is fragmented, incoherent, and completely unfocused, it either features or is controlled by organizations with ties to Stalinism and other forms of authoritarianism.

[jmatthan]

65. Interesting all the comments about A.N.S.W.E.R.

But then why did not the Dem leaders organise their own protest to repressnt the views of THEIR electorate?

Most of them are a bunch of rabbits eating corporate carrots handed out to them by the neocons. they have little of no connection to their electorate.

[ElectroPrincess]

68. Ding! Ding! Ding! We've got us a winner!

You nailed it ... Kudos galore! :-) :hi:

The vast majority of OUR so called Democratic Leaders are nothing more than "rabbits eating corporate carrots handed out to them by the neocons."

It's time for THE PEOPLE to wake up to the fact that we need NEW Democratic Leaders.

[spanone]

67. Dem leaders should be ashamed....PERIOD.

[Freddie Stubbs]

69. Perhaps they has important prior commitments that they had to keep

Even Dennis Kucinich wasn't there.

[ElectroPrincess]

70. They probably needed to spend more time with their families?

:sarcasm:

[QC]

72. Yes, they need to be seen w/ a crowd chanting "Death to Israel!"

That would do us all a world of good, wouldn't it?

[ElectroPrincess]

75. Don't go there ... that lame argument was diluted long ago n/t

[QC]

76. So Daily Kos is a Republican source now?

:tinfoilhat:

[ElectroPrincess]

77. You know, you can find a few a**holes in EVERY crowd... doesn't make it ..

frame the whole MARCH as such. But hey, go ahead and scream it some more ... it falls on deaf ears. The atrocities are on *both* sides.

[QC]

79. You're the only one screaming here,

as per usual.

I only pointed out that people who have to run for public office cannot be publicly tied to Stalinists and the like. It would give their opponents way too much ammunition.

[ElectroPrincess]

81. No, you are making baseless claims ... now Stalinists? unreal notions n/t

[QC]

85. ROFLMAO! Baseless claims? Unreal notions?

Do a bit of research on the Workers World Party and get back to us on that. You clearly have not the slightest idea what you are talking about, not that that ever stopped anyone from pontificating around here.

[ElectroPrincess]

87. ROTFLMAO at the way you generalize ... many people represented there n/t

[QC]

116. Still haven't looked up the history of the WWP, I see.

I'll save you the trouble: when the Socialist Workers Party denounced Stalin's 1956 invasion of Hungary, a pro-Stalin faction broke away and formed...the Worker's World Party.

So yeah, they're quite literally Stalinists.

[second edition]

78. I understand why they didn't!

These rallies always seem to be so unorganized and not focused entirely on what they should be- which is protesting our involvement in Iraq and ending the conflict. Instead, there are "unusual" groups, declaring their angry over other controversial issues that others would be in disagreement with or even be appalled at having to listen to others rant on about. I could mean political death to a politician if the opposing party were able to connected the politician to unorthodox and threatening looking groups.

[ElectroPrincess]

80. "unorthodox and threatening looking groups"?

There were a number of children there. That doesn't sound all that threatening to me?

No, I give our gutless Democratic politicians NO PASS. The party needs to be gutted before we can have it truly representative of the people.

We have spoiled corporate millionaire representatives who don't give a damn about their constituents ... well, not about the non-investor class ones anyway.

[second edition]

86. Oh, come on, you did realize I meant the political groups and

not the families with children. I don't agree with gutting the party. You will never get any true leader to agree with your point of view 100% of the time. If they do, they are just after your vote and are not true leaders. Believe it or not,others may not share your beliefs and opinions and may have knowledge of situations that you do not.

[ElectroPrincess]

88. What freaks you and many like you out is - that our numbers are ...

on the rise. That's why all the disrespect and republican smear tactics. You are becoming what you despise. I'm just the messenger. Nothing more, nothing less.

[seabeyond]

82. you democrats are almost to the point of convincing me to leave

the democrats behind. i am not even a friggin democrat, i have spent more time over the last handful of months or year, defending and stating the actions of the democrats. the good they do. the accomplishments they have made. and i hear nothing, but a bunch of democrats, whine and ignore what their own party leaders are doing

really

you want a senator to walk out and embrace that rally, when they cannot. you throw a little tantrum, ignore everything the dem leaders say because you want them to do it your way. they would be crucified. and it would have been bad for the rally, it would have focused away from iraq in media. do a rally on administration wrongs that are documented. dsm, then maybe you will get support from the dem leaders,.... but not with what this rally represented. not gonna happen

today, this morning, i am thinking wtf. if dems are so pathetic and bad, maybe i ought to just work thru the independent party. start locally and empower. i am in texas. dems cant hardly say they are in my area. independent wins here.

you democrats that refuse to see what your party is doing are part of the problem. the voice the dem leaders use, the words they say to you. you refuse to hear them. what the hell are you doing for your party here.

[ElectroPrincess]

84. Nope, the problem is: We have NO Democratic Leaders ...

Only corporate a**-ki**ers who parade as Democrats. Yes, those who are not against this immoral and illegal war can ki** their re-election campaigns goodbye.

I'm not alone. There are many of us "left of center" people who have compromised to help the so called DLC Democratic Leaders.

No more. We'll stay home and shed NOT A TEAR when these posers get their political butts handed to them.

Only then can there be hope to rebuild the Democratic Party.

Right now we have NO Democratic Party. We have Republican Lites. :puke:

[seabeyond]

91. because you say it does not make it true. such repug

talking points fed to you by.......

wow. yes

this is exactly what i am talking about. bully for you. stay home. get another repug in there. wth. dropping days out of our childrens academic week because school cannot afford to have children in class. what does it matter to you.

k. so basically what you, the democrat, are suggesting to me the independent. i had better get my ass into the republican party to support the moderate, educated repugs.

what?

what site am i on? shaking head in wonder

[ElectroPrincess]

93. Thanks for at least tying to understand

BTW anyone who knows my person, also knows that I have NOTHING *fed to me.* I am the genuine article.

Also, I understand that you disagree and that's cool by me. :hi:

[seabeyond]

95. trying to understand? i understand. i have spent the last two years

obsessing on this damn iraq war and how to get out of it, and what we need to do. to understand every angle. of course i understand. i am the one that lost friends last election. a vote for bush is turning your back away from our troops. i pulled my kids out of a private school that they loved. effecting their whole life.

yes iraq and the discussing abuses and incpompetence and corruption and deaths are huge.

i understand.

i cannot afford to live life, all or nothing. all support of leaving iraq, or i wont elect you

healthcare is killing us, financially and literally
credit card laws oct
bankruptcy law oct
my childrens education and every other child thruout community

let me ask. are you trying to understand at all what i say?

[ElectroPrincess]

97. Of course I am empathetic to the "present" American Situation ...

However, perhaps unlike your family, mine is proud of our military service. Every generation of my family have served in the US Army. Yes, Back to the Civil War - my ancestor fought as a regular mule skinner caring ammunition to the front lines for the Union Army.

My Dad was battlefield commissioned at Anzio during WWII (from a staff sergeant to a butter bar lieutenant). My older brother served in combat as a Sergeant in Vietnam (101st Airborne).

Me? I served during peacetime as an Intelligence Officer. Yes, I think things through.

However, through MY LENS of Military Family Service, I feel it a tragedy that our Armed forces have been misused. I remember many of us saying after the Vietnam War tragedy, "NEVER AGAIN!"

It's happening again. I feel for my Country and the memory of my honorable ancestors, I must do all I legally can to stop this HORRIFIC mistake - This occupation of Iraq must end or it will bankrupt our Nation.

[second edition]

89. Alright! I agree with you!

Let me just ad this, they behave like Republicans with their, you either share my opinion on this war, or I'm done with you attitude. Just like Repubs- your either with me 100% or your against me 100%.
No room for any compromise or differing points of view.

[ElectroPrincess]

90. Well, when it comes to an IMMORAL and un-Godly war - YES! that's true n/t

[seabeyond]

92. ok, how about when it comes to all the uninsured people in this nation

is it only the suffering in iraq that makes it onto your meter? how about all the children being indoctrined into a cult christianity? how about the working class spending their money on school supplies, higher gas, higher taxes and not able to put food on the table, do they matter?

thinking it thru is a good thing

[ElectroPrincess]

94. You are "off topic" - If you wish to address this in another thread OR

via PM, please do so?

[seabeyond]

96. wow., i dont do well with limits

i can go off topic, and it doesnt even hurt. hm

[ElectroPrincess]

98. Sorry, send me a PM and I'll chat all you like :-) /eom

[seabeyond]

101. i do discussion boards not pm

you llike control dont you? come on, admit, there are good things about wanting control. do you have kids? lol. i am not a kid. i dont do ultimatums. my posts are exactly on topic. why we cannot afford to walk away from democrats even if we oppose war and dont get support from senator. i happen to think real soon, the senators are going to have to oppose what is happening in iraq to the point of pulling out. things progressively worsen. a fund raising raised $600. and the people speak. they will have to listen. i hope.

but..... this doesnt mean i walk away from the areas the democrats are fighting. i wont do it. and if this conversation is off point, i say, wtf?

[ElectroPrincess]

105. Sorry, I'm not going to go off topic to discuss insurance, etc.

That's too bad because I'd like you understand your points in more depth via PM. But that's cool.

No, in my "control freak" family, I'm the accommodating one.

We clearly disagree about this war. To me, there's no middle ground when the occupation of Iraq is clearly both "immoral and illegal."

There really is no middle ground when the truth is in our faces. That's why we need to bring the troops out NOW. The Iraqi people are NOT ignorant and illogical. We are only delaying the civil war and we can NOT at this point lessen the damage.

It's beyond time to end the occupation of Iraq. Nope, no middle ground here. ;)

[seabeyond]

107. ok i get you. if i were to talk insurance crisis, i would go off topic

i just dont want to talk that right now, after all this thread is why it is so important to continue to support the dems, even though they werent at the march. you should know the insurance crisis, it is going thru the roof. hubby owns business and cant afford to pay employee insurance anymore. hitting every family nationwide,.....

i dont believe we disagree on this war at all. the repugs have been saying a couple years, if i oppose bush i dont suport the troops. bullshit. i worked ass of for kerry for the troops, because i knew there would be an almost given chance, we could get out.

of course we agree on troops and war, and please dont assume you care more. we equally care, i assure you

walking away from dems, sitting down the line to the dems, is not the answer in my book.

just like, telling hubby, i want a divorce. you had better be willing to walk out that house.

i am not willing to allow another repug voted in. i am just not willing to vote another repug in by staying at home.

that is where we disagree

[ElectroPrincess]

111. Ok, truce is good :-)

BTW I know commitment - I've been married to a Retired Marine for a while - going on 24 years.

I don't "break ranks" on anyONE or anyTHING without good reason.

Best wishes, EP

[seabeyond]

112. ty. we arent in military

i can look at the world in busniess sense, in my own lifestyles but i dont have knowledge and info in military. your unique gift to voice. i value it greatly. i have a military family that has come into my world the last couple years. i watched their oldest son go over to iraq and be injured. the fear going to germany. they had their first child with lifetime illness because of the anthrax shot. and i have listened to the mother and daily dialysis and what she lives. she is so young, 21 and she is afraid to have another baby. this man goes back in a couple months.

another son, now in iraq, by the syria border

another son that just signed up and will go in a year

and one son, that smokes pot and listens to music

they gave me a video of the picture their oldest son took while in iraq. graphic. and long. i havent been able to watch just yet

but i feel i just need ot continue to support and continue to show our dems why, they have to walk away from this war. i also feel circumstance and the rest of the world is well into creating this too.

[ElectroPrincess]

113. Understood - I can respect your opinion ...

However, when OUR Democratic Leaders begin to respect the non-investor classes (working and middle), I will, once again, support them. Until that time: They can pound sand!

Now, that's where we differ. And that is understandable.

[me b zola]

104. Did you wake up on the cranky side of the bed?

At this point in time, the overwhelming number of Americans are against the Iraq War and want the troops to come home. The poll numbers cross party lines, as many repubs are now seeing the travesty of this war and are realizing that they have been lied to. With the exception of 40 Dems in the House and Senator Feingold, Dems cannot even find their voice to agree with the majority of the country.

It's funny, Mr zola is a reformed repub and considers himself an independent, but he feels much the same way as I do. We wish for representation by our elected officials. Saturday was a great day as we marched on DC. It was the aftermath that ticked me off.

I watched a bit of the freeper rally. It seemed as though there were as many speakers there as there were people in the crowd. Among the speakers I saw three repub elected officials. Then I also had to listen to the Sunday morning talking heads brush off our march shaking their heads and all agree that the Democratic Party doesn't know where they stand on the war.

You accuse me of "throwing a little tantrum" because I don't see what the Dems are doing. Well, I don't see what they are doing. More times then I can count I have bit my tongue when frustrated by the lack of clear vision and leadership of many of our top Dems.

I'm not as hard on our elected officials as many on this board for voting for the IWR. They were lied to. Fine. But since the DSMs came to light, there is no excuse for not strongly opposing this war. None. Now we have polls that show that an increasing number of republicans are against the war and still some of the Dems are calling for MORE troops to be sent to Iraq. I wonder if they would send their own children.

We have some wonderful Dems who have used their voice tirelessly against the Iraq War and other issues that are important to us all. It is not just me who would like to hear from the leaders in the Senate, the House Dems who have been carrying all of the weight would probably like to hear from the others as well.

[seabeyond]

110. i think you will continue to get exactly what you are asking for

may not be exactly your way though. but i think it will grow and become stronger, and ultimately get what you are looking for. maybe not saturday or tomorrow. i have listened to so many dems, and repugs yes, and i mean our dem leaders, and i do hear them critize the war efforts. they are slow on saying all pull out. i understand why. it is easy for you and i to accept with our admin there is nothing they will do to heal aghdad. but i think our dem leaders in the vaccuum, are coming to the conclusion, fighting hard the wanting to fix what we did. that is not an unvalid issue, it is just something that will not work with our current adm

i have hope, that dems will be able to do this. may take a few more months, and the public yelling. how it generally happens. but i do not lay the line, i wont vote for a dem. that isnt ok to me. i dont want repug.

[Skidmore]

99. Den leaders should be ashamed because they should have

been leading in this area all along. I still maintain that, if so many of us out here in the boonies could tell that we were being lied to based on simple news reports and no access to classified reports, then these leaders should have known also. They are also responsible for these deaths through their silence.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

103. can you inform us who want to know - what is Clark's plan?

thank you.

[ElectroPrincess]

106. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss?

You seem to think getting rid of the Republicans will solve our problems? Nope, and Cindy Sheehan has the courage to speak out in public. God Bless her because the "Republican and DLC" Noise Machines are trashing her.

Although I may not agree with all that she says, I will always admire her courage. BTW IMO she's anything BUT an idiot. ;)

[me b zola]

115. You know, I would never speak so rudely about a GS mom

Many of us here use restraint when speaking about freeper GS moms, unless they are vile to anti-war GS moms. Cindy is an intelligent and passionate woman. Her bravery & strength amaze me. Shame on you for not having the ability or desire to criticize her view point without calling names.

Look, this is not a political Rubik's cube. Simple acknowledgment that hundreds of thousands of Americans came from across the country to say they want the war to end. That acknowledgment gives power to the movement which in turn gives power back to the Democratic Party. A leader does not have to agree with every stance of every protester to stand up and say that the people are rising up and demanding a withdraw from Iraq.

[Beam Me Up]

118. "Reality."

That right there is the problem.

Whoever controls your perception of reality controls you.

Given where we are now, on the verge of economic collapse, on the verge of broadening resource war that will NOT stay 'over there' but is coming to a neighborhood near you soon, whose to say what REAL POLITIC is? Ask the citizens of New Orleans and throughout the South if they ever thought they'd be abandoned by their government. It is totally real.

We've gone down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass: The United States of America has been without a President for FIVE YEARS: The man in the White House is an interloper, a clueless flack-catcher, put in place by a cabal of paranoid misanthropes who not only hate and mistrust humanity, they mistrust and hate one another and themselves. Worse, they're armed to the teeth with WMD's so powerful it could END human existence.

"Reality based thinking" is precisely what has gotten us into this mess. Look, are you a Christian? Look at what JESUS said: "Blessed are the gentle for they shall inherit the Earth," and "Blessed are the peace makers for they shall be called Sons of God." Tell me about "Reality", PLEASE! If only we could hear what those words really mean.

Sunrise!
Surprise
Civilized Man
You were keeper to me
Now your animal is free
And you're free to die

Die!

You're old and your hands are gray
Your old go home and pray
We've all heard you dirty stories

Two thousand years
Two thousand years
Two thousand years
Of your
God damn
Glory!

...

Only the sun knows what we really need to know
Only the sun holds the secret
And more than human can we be
Cause human's truly locked
To this planetary circle

You gotta ride said the Doktor of space
I have lived here once before
The lites in the nite are a village of stars
Of stars that I have explored
Beyond the idea of beyond the void
And beyond that and more
Parallel lines in this village of stars
Will lead you to the second door
And time won't wait for the Doktor of space from the city of the sun to come

WHERE DO YOU GO FROM HERE

CHAOS OR COMMUNITY?

CAN'T YOU SEE - ON THIS AND FUTURE SUNDAYS!

7000 Gypsies swirlin together
      Offering to the sun in the name of the weather
            Gonna Hijack - HIJACK THE STARSHIP

...

We come and go like a comet
We are wanderers
Are you anymore?
The land is green and you make it grow
And you gotta let go you know
You gotta let go you know
You gotta let go you know
Or else you stay
MANKIND GONE FROM THE CAGE
ALL THE YEARS GONE FROM YOUR AGE!

At first I was irridescent
Then I became transparent
Finally (Finally!) I was absent

Can you believe it?

Ah, can you believe it?

--Jefferson Starship Blows Against The Empire, 1970

Fuck "Reality", we see where that's gotten us. Lets try the infinite and limitless realms of the HUMAN IMAGINATION for a change! Lets hear it for poets and dreamers! Lets hear it for the Saints and the Profits and those with broken hearts WHO AREN'T GONNA TAKE IT ANY MORE! Fuck your god damned GOP reality and the fascist materialist 'real politic' HORSE SHIT it rode in on!

[Ladyhawk]

108. Cheney went on the Limbaugh show...that should have turned some

people off, but apparently not.

I'm just saying that the MEpublicans don't seem to care who they associate with.

[cassiepriam]

114. WHERE IS OUR LEADERSHIP????????????? nt

[dbeach]

120. Dems like these are the repukes best agenda realized

and in the end are either in on the sinister gig or enablers.

Either way the Dems have abandoned the citizens and should pay at the ballot box providing of course that diebold don't steal more elections ..

Loser dems supporting a loser admin in yet another loser war and we all LOSE BUT THEM

Cuz its a about them the ruling elites of bothaprties having one big ole party on my tax dollars