International A.N.S.W.E.R and CONTIELPRO

[nadinbrzezinski]

Ok ok any of the real old hands know what CONTRIEPLRO is, and if you do not, wikipedia and google are your friends.

Here is a thought that just occurred to me... the peace movement has been growing. Hell they were massive demos before the war... but I cannot shake one memory, on September 20th, 2001 a young man came to the book store in Hawaii and put this well done poster, very well done poster, from INTERNATIONAL A.N.S.W.E.R. Now I am a publisher so I know how expensive it it so print in color and to print good quality stock.
Those posters were not cheap to produce.

Well well, after seeing how the peace movement is basically getting diluted in its message by these clowns, who are ALL but inclusive... it occurred to me... could INTERNATIONAL A.N.S.W.E.R be the equivalent of the modern CONTRIELPRO? Think about it folks, they were ready to go from the gate. No I am not saying that all of them are... but what if there are some and their initial funding did NOT come from donations? I can tell you I sincerely doubt it did. Those posters were the kind that you think about producing for a major event in the gaming industry, if you happen to have the money. They were not cheap computer knockouts, they were not cheap...

Now what has International A.N.S.W.E.R so far managed to do?

1.- Dilute the message

2.- Keep people home, those who know what they have done will not go

3.- Sorry but Free MUMIA does not belong in a peace march, nor the antisemitic crap they espouse

The messages they espouse seem clearly designed to keep middle America out... The message at this point should be laser focused on the war... and the war alone and brining the troops home. The nuances, and they do exist, of why we went to war belong in teach in, not in a major march. A major march is not a teachable moment.

Oh and yes these questions are apropriate and NEED asking, everybody has an agenda, what is theirs?

[leveymg]

1. Nobody stayed home because of ANSWER except Mr. Starr, yesterday.

This is a non-issue.

[unsavedtrash]

39. actually, I did stay home because I refuse to be even slightly grouped

with Anti-Semitic groups.

[leveymg]

50. Your loss. It was wonderful. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Yet again you are missing the point

thousands if not tens of thousands will STAY HOME because of the antisemitic crap... and that my friend is also image management... make the peace movement antisemitic, you will keep young Jewish progressives out and what is more their skills... need I remind you of the role of those same Jewish Progressives in the Civil Rights Movement and the anti war movement? Care to think they want to keep these people out?

No, my tinfoil hat does not need any adjustment, this group has way too many black marks against it.

[entanglement]

77. You're one of those 'any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic' people

so naturally you don't like ANSWER

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. No I criticize Israel all the time

that is not antisemitism, but keeping Rabbi Lerner off the stage in San Fran simply because he is a Jew is antisemitism...

I also believe that the over simplification of the issues at the march is antisemitism, what is more I am of the opinion that unless you are willing to move to the ME, we have no right to an opinion anymore, not after Abu Grab, ok.

But I also can see the complexities and they don't belong in a rally either

[Raksha]

100. ANSWER kept Rabbi Lerner off the stage????

Re >>...but keeping Rabbi Lerner off the stage in San Fran simply because he is a Jew is antisemitism...<<

That is absolutely outrageous, especially when you consider that Rabbi Lerner is one of my heroes, and he's anything but a gung-ho Zionist neocon. He's one of the leaders of the Jewish peace movement, and a tireless advocate of a just and lasting peace between Israel and Palestine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. Yes they did

in the anti war march before the war started, the huge march in San Fran... when I heard about it, that is all I needed to know about ANSWER

[Raksha]

122. It's all I need to know about them too. Screw them.

If they kept Rabbi Lerner off the stage they are well beyond "anti-Zionist." They are anti-Semites, period.

[leveymg]

123. Please cite a source for that accusation.

I haven't heard that about Lerner.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Bernie Ward mentioned it on his program

and care to tell me how many times Lerner has taken the stage?

[leveymg]

133. If Ward's right, I'll second the motion.

But, we still should thank ANSWER for their work onN the DC rally. That can't be taken away from them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. He is right I have been listening to Bernie for years

he was PO'ed that night and even tried to get Lerner on the phone... who graciously refused because he did not want to take away from the march by what he saw as a stupid do, stupid says... but because of that, they are involved I don't go.

But last night watching the rally I went... HMMMMM ... I write fiction for a living, have talked to snake eaters and over the years, I was a medic in an interesting place... so have seen more than most... that is why yesterday I went, perchance... and the question needs asking... because we all have an agenda

Mine, bring the troops home, rebuild this country, re industrialize this country, and god dammit, lets take apart the military-industrial complex... that is in broad strokes... oh and national health care for all, but hey...

[leveymg]

87. I get your point.

I just think you miss the multiple larger issues that drew us all out into the streets of DC. If what you say is true, it's a tragedy that some obsess with single-issue politics to the exclusion of all else.

That's the height of folly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Sorry their antisemitc stance is not single politics

neither is their anti american stance, old style stalinist and marxist language does not in the streets belong. And I for one will NOT associate myself with it.

[leveymg]

108. You're right. There are at least two issues here.

1)Is ANSWER really anti-semitic, or just pro-Palestinian? 2) Do the Old Left really belong in the streets - or should they just go back to the banks and boardrooms, perhaps?

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. You are missing the whole issue

and that is okay... you will go to their rallies, I won't... it is as simple as that. I now beleive after some research, that ANSWER is nothing more than agent provocateours, good ones, I might add, who are keeping the old image of left= commies and left= radicals going

you like that image, go to the rallies...

[leveymg]

127. It wasn't their rally. Please don't spread that misconception!!!!!

There were dozens of groups involved in the planning. Hundreds of thousands of people attended without the slightest idea of who put on the show. Don't diminish this.

Your approach would be like staying away from the SF music scene of the late 60s because Phil Spectre was one of the promoters. Here's another metaphor - we shouldn't have fought Hitler because Stalin was also involved. Glad you're not runing things.

Please try to see the larger picture.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. ANSWER is involved I don't go, periiod

and you can see I am not alone

[leveymg]

131. That's your choice, and I understand

your feelings even if I can't agree with your reasoning. No hard feelings either way, I hope.

Enough said about this.

[Nikki Stone 1]

We were told here on DU that ANSWER organized the march

So which is it?

[Darranar]

145. Which of their stances strike you as "anti-American" or "Stalinist"? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. Tehir top down organizatiion IS

stalinist command structure....

And they do have some rather anti american views, such as the US is guilty for all the ills in the world, and suport kim jung ill, who is all but warm and fuzzy.

now middle america sees that, and they see one thing, hate america first pinko comies

This is about IMAGE CONTROL and PERCEPTION which many of you are having a problem comprehending...

This is also why I am starting to wonder where their damn funding is coming from... as it is not transparent.

[Darranar]

154. No, it is not Stalinist, merely somewhat authoritarian.

If you don't like it, don't join.

I do not believe A.N.S.W.E.R. has ever accused the United States of being "guilty for all the ills in the world." I would like support for that statement. I would also like support for your accusation that ANSWER has supported Kim Jon Ill - not that one of their supporters has, or one of their leaders, but the organization itself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. There you have it

you have no problems nor are you willing to ask questions...

I guess it was the same way in the sixties, and it will take longer to get the troops home because you don't get it... joe six pack will distance himself from them... and many of us, no, not only Walt, will NOT associate ourselves with them.

Have fun storming the castle.

[Darranar]

160. So ANSWER has never said those things? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. They don't have to say the are a command structure

actions prove it

[Darranar]

So ANSWER has never supported Kim Jon Ill?

And it has never ascribed guilt to the US for all the ills of the world?

If it has, I would like evidence to support those accusations.

I believe the WWP has expressed a degree of support for Kim Jon Ill, and the splinter group PSL may have as well, but neither of those are the same thing as ANSWER, nor have either accused the US of being responsible for all the ills of the world.

[Old and In the Way]

92. Hi Mark!

I enjoy your posts here a lot. I would agree that the organizers of the event don't particularly bother me, but I wonder if we need to start steering away from them in the future? I'd really like to see a more secular, mainstream organization do this in the future...maybe PDA or even MoveOn.org?

Here's a thread I posted earlier...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2112958&mesg_id=2112958

[leveymg]

115. Before we fire them, we at least owe them a lot of thanks.

That would be the decent thing to do. This immediate call for a purge is absurd in light of how successful the event was, and how essential ANSWER was to that success.

We'll be judged by how we deal with our own imperfections. I'm not too happy about how ADA purged the old Left progressives in the late 1940s and early 1950s. We can do better than our parents did.

[Old and In the Way]

119. Agreed...no bridges need burning.

Just think we should start building a new bridge.

[leveymg]

120. We shouldn't burn any witches, either.

Mr. Clarke is perplexing and something of a contradiction, I agree. His judgment has been wanting at times.

Not being able to see inside his head, however, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Cookie wookie]

65. That's not the only reason I didn't go,

but part of it / getting off work when I'll need to use vacation time off for evoting activism this year was the other part. I warned my friends who were going to stay clear of ANSWER.

I definitedly did not go last year because ANSWER was front and center. I will not associate with anti-american/communist groups, particularly when they have used threats of violence, as I am am an adherent to MLK/Ghandi's principles of nonviolence.

[Dr Fate]

106. Actually- I avoid nearly all San Francisco demonstrations b/c of them.

So it is not just Walt.

All the I cant find "My Mommy" & Jews vs. Muslim stuff is over my head.

[skooooo]

2. Cointelpro

..also served to cause discontent between various factions of the resistance movement. So what's your agenda?

I'm not defending ANSWER, or dismissing your questions, I'm just saying. :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. I'm just asking the question,

it is a valid qusetion to ask... given they have kept people off their stages adn they are diluting the anit war message and making middle america go... see I told you them liberals were Stalinists?

Oh and if you think the gov'ment is above using a group for this, I have a bridge to sell you... as I said, I am just raising that posibility... they are extremely well funded...

[skooooo]

9. Ok, let's approach it this way..

What if the answer is "yes" - what does it mean?
If the answer is "no?"

I think we analyse things to death sometimes. If something is "wrong" with ANSWER, how significant is that "wrongness" when we see 100s of 1000s of people on TV protesting the War?

I think America may not be so naive that they aren't aware of the validity of a LARGE movement, nor so naive to realize that there are always "hangers on" (however they define that).

So if you don't like ANSWER, join another group and do your thing. I don't think what ANSWER did was so aggrievous that the day was somehow a "net loss."

That's my take.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. You are avoiding the question

they were ready to go OFF THE GATE a week after September 11, 2001, most of the country was still in shock... these guys were ready....

That is why I ask the question, who the hell are they and where did they get the funding? They must have known that a peace movement was going to rise... and PNAC has also said they were going to manage all... that is why I am asking exactly what are the motives? I know this is a very complex quetion for some

And as to staying home, they are involved in any local event, I stay home...not only Walt, many more, just that Walt voiced it.

[Beam Me Up]

97. Some of us WERE ANTICIPATING a 9/11 like event. That doesn't make us

run by cointelpro. Rather, it underscores the LEGETIMACY of our analysis.

You are saying that ANSWER is "diluting the antiwar message" which is bull shit provided you understand what is really behind this war. What is behind this war is BIGGER than Republicans vs Democrats.

You seem to not understand that there have been progressive class analyses of the structures of power for a very long time, not to mention progressive people's struggles for independence from eurocentric hegemony and imperialism.

9/11 did not happen in a vacuum. Those of us who have been watching the way the National Security State apparatus works was already ANTICIPATING some sort of event that would allow them to do precisely what they have done: 1) further the process of limiting constitutional freedoms here in the US (prior to 9/11 "the war on drugs" was what was being used) and 2) generate wide support for international aggression. That is what 9/11 was used for.

Now many of us anticipate yet another, much bigger and more horrific, "terrorist attack"™. We believe this because we already know what there agenda is: 1) SILENCING dissent both domestically and internationally; 2) Instituting a drastic reductions in civil liberties if not full-on martial law; 3) Using the event as justification for reinstituting the military Draft; and 4) "Justification" for using tactical nuclear weapons ON A FIRST STRIKE BASIS against anyone this or any future administration declares a "threat".

Note: I am not a member of ANSWER.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Again you are avoiding the question

but that is ok... after all we know all these fringe groups who came into a coalition on September 14 had LOTS of cash to print and ship out very expensive posters to the four corners of the country and even... off the continent.

Ok you were able to predict 9.11 (so was anybody paying attention, it is called blow back and it is a consequence of our policies in Afghanistan, the ME and other places) that does not mean you have thousands of dollars hanging around, now does it? And their money gathering is NOT transparent.

Go ahead ask al the questions about the gov'ment, but don't ask them about this group, because we all know the gov'mnnt has NEVER infiltrated groups, or hells bells created them out of whole cloth.

[Beam Me Up]

111. Hello.

A: I'm not avoiding any question. See my post below re asking ANSWER re their funding.

B: It could just as well be that the funding came from one of the more extreme left organizations.

C: 9/11 was NOT blow back. It was not an "intelligence failure". It was and remains to this day an "intelligence success."

D: How do you know ANSWER's financials are not available to the public? Have you asked?

E: I did not say nor did I imply that the government doesn't infiltrate or use groups such as ANSWER. I'm quite convinced they do. As a matter of fact, I expect some cointelpro operations go on right here in good old GD DU. I could even say that your posing the question re ANSWER without having FIRST ASKED THEM FOR CLARIFICATION is a typical cointelpro ploy to create division and suspiscion. But I won't.

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. You can ask, I asked the question

becuase it struck me as odd that they were ready to run off the gate so fast, barely a week after 9.11

And yes 9.11 is blowback, 9.11 can also be seen as an intelligence success, depends on how tight you want that tin foil... but it was both, best case scenario....

Oh and I am not an agent of the government, I asked becuase it struck me as strange... and yesterday's C-SPAN coverage raised way, WAAAYYYYY too many questions... mostly due to their speakers

[MADem]

3. Do you, perchance, mean COINTELPRO??

You need to get the spelling right if you want folks to look it up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I mean them

[Autonomy]

4. Don't you mean COINTELPRO?

Not to be nitpicky. It stands for Counter Intelligence Program.

Your theory needs more tinfoil.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. ok, I see, nobody even wants to ask the question

[MADem]

11. I didn't say much because I do not believe that there is any kind of

COINTELPRO operation going on within ANSWER.

In the newsrooms, maybe, but not with that outfit. JMO. YMMV.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. But we know the FBI has been infiltrating

oh peace groups, what makes International A.N.S.W.E.R to be above it? Or quite frankly a tool even if most of them are not aware of it? When you use a group as a tool you just don't take over... but have people at decision level to do this

[MADem]

139. Well, you have every right to your opinion nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

14. In a thread I started yesterday, there were several people who were

question who was behind ANSWER.

Here is a link to an intelligent well thought out post by Mistrel Boy. No tinfoil required.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4878874

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. thanks so Ramsey Clark and his

Intel boys are behind this... hmmm that answers all I wanted to know....

No tinfoil required, you are right... no tinfoil required. I am betting when the dust settles somebody will find out I was onto something with this post.

September 14 formation date, and they had posters and people on the ground on the 20th? Folks this is fast, and if you have ever lived in Hawaii, this is astronomically fast.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

38. Your welcome! I also posted a big snip on my post #30 in this thread.

[Autonomy]

40. You're failing to recognize

that ANSWER is just a splinter group of a decades-long series of organized political activist groups. They had everything they needed before the group was formed, no government conspiracy required.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

57. And our government has been using these groups for Decades. nt

[Autonomy]

20. OK, I'll ANSWER the question

I didn't mean to be entirely dismissive. Is it possible ANSWER is infiltrated? Yes, in fact it's most likely. But I don't think infiltration is the problem. Yes, I agree ANSWER can be as much of a hindrance as a mover of issues. But they put things out on the stage that the powers-that-be would rather have hidden. They clearly work against the government's interests. The fact that they work against the interests of quasi-organized Left is another matter, a by-product of predictable in-fighting.

[skooooo]

26. What Autonomy said.

[librechik]

34. I will ask the question also

and it makes me suspicious that there seems to be a stubborn element which seems to want to protect ANSWER from criticism from the left. Are they not open minded enough to discuss it at least?

And yes, the US and other international entities would not be above funding and launching such a group for their own manipulative purposes, and perhaps to attract a certain type of person that they can then surveil. We know they have done it before, and we know they think the PATRIOT act gives them the right to do it again.

I believe it's a possibility we shouldn't be blind to, even though it was great ot have a well-funded sponsor. It is just one more reason why we need to get our OWN organization WITHOUT such forced alliances that will speak for us instead of "special interests" as the Pukkkes call them. We used to be able to count on the Democrats to do this, but they are on the other side for now. Maybe we can take them over.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

30. And this government never used agent provocateurs? Please. From Wikipedia

Agents provocateurs are also used against political opponents. Here, it has been documented that provocateurs deliberately carry out or seek to incite counter-productive and/or ineffective acts, in order to foster public disdain for the group and provide a pretext for aggression; and to worsen the punishments its members are liable for. Within the United States the COINTELPRO program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation had FBI agents posing as political radicals in order to disrupt the activities of political groups the U.S. government found unacceptably radical, such as the Black Panthers. However, since there is some evidence that the Black Panther organization was itself established as a provocation, aimed at disrupting and discrediting the integrationist program and coalition politics strategy of the Civil Rights Movement, this example drawn from FBI archives may be deliberately deceptive.

Now team this up with this excellent post of this morning by Mistrel Boy on Ramsey Clark
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4878874
Minstrel Boy Sun Sep-25-05 09:13 AM

Is that your final A.N.S.W.E.R.?


Another march on Washington, and more grumbling about A.N.S.W.E.R.'s performance.

----------------snip-----------------------------------

Now I don't have a problem with radical politics. Those are my politics. And I do believe that mass events are good occasions to wisely shed light upon the interconnections of injustice. What I have a problem with is Ramsey Clark. I don't trust him. And so, I must have a problem with A.N.S.W.E.R. I don't trust it, either.

A.N.S.W.E.R., established by Clark's International Action Center, shows a national, organizational savvy in securing police permits and outclasses and outspends all popular opposition groups in America. (Though there's no transparency regarding the source of its funds.) While the Iraq War is its rallying cause, A.N.S.W.E.R. was founded, presciently, on September 14, 2001, even before the "War on Terror" was officially launched, even rhetorically.

Why don't I trust Clark? If LBJ's former Attorney General was ever going to win my trust, he would have repudiated his handpicked Clark Panel, its medical professionals linked to the intelligence community, and its findings a whitewash of John F Kennedy's incomplete and adulterated autopsy records. He would have apologized to history and America's thwarted justice for stating just days after the murder of Dr King, and even before a suspect was in custody, that "all of our evidence at this time indicates that it was a single person who committed this criminal act." Years later in The Nation, after his radical makeover, Clark said James Earl Ray should not be given a new trial, but rather his case ought to be studied by a government panel. As Lisa Pease asks in The Assassinations, "Did Clark really think the government, which produced the Warren Commission and the HSCA and failed to reveal the truth about either the Martin Luther King case or the Kennedy assassination, should have been given a chance to bamboozle us yet again?"

The American Left of Chomsky and Cockburn and The Nation will never touch these matters of conspiracy. So Clark is largely untouched by his legacy of abetting three of the most egregious miscarriages of modern justice - John, Martin and Bobby - which, uncorrected, have brought America to this point of low comedy and great horror.

If your intent is generational warfare, you had better give some forethought to the stage management of your opposition. As you turn up the pressure, you need to ensure people can vent some steam. It makes them feel better. Like they've done something.

[Mari333]

8. I said this yesterday, this is similar crap to what happened

back when I protested the war in Vietnam. There were soooo many groups, with their own agendas, diluting the message, infighting, people intent upon screaming their own particular agenda onto the stage, and I remember well when I attended meetings to formulate rallies, people with huge egos would attempt to take over the message.
I was young, and didnt care back then how the PR worked, but now that Im older I understand it better. ANSWER does more harm then good, because its agenda/speakers only reinforce the stereotypes that people in the anti Bush movement are crazy loonies.
And trying to get thru to a lot of these people in ANSWER will be hard..they are hell bent on their ideologies..many of them are certainly well versed in the nuances of imperialism, capitalism, and the lumpen proletariat..heck I read Marx and Engels too when I was a youngster...
But the average Joe and Mary out in Iowa just see a bunch of nuts when ANSWER gets coverage. The average Joe and Mary are right now on the cusp of change..the majority of US citizens are against this war, finally...to reach them where it counts now is imperative..and ANSWER is not the answer.
I wish the MSM would have covered the march, instead.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Agree fully

what bothers me is that even asking if some of the agenda is gov'ment control seems verbotten

[Mari333]

12. personally, I think , after viewing some of the speakers yesterday

Rove was in ecstasy.

[skooooo]

13. What was the end result??

Nothing is "pure" or idealic. People are messy. That's the way things are.

[Mari333]

21. end result was the only anti war people the US public saw

were ANSWERS speakers. the MSM didnt cover the march, so all the US public saw was ANSWERs message, nothing else.

[skooooo]

23. I'm asking about the end results of the 60s

Point is, it worked, to a measurable extent. However messy it was, there were some real outcomes that we can see despite all of the problems.

[Scurrilous]

51. Bullshit.

Here's your non-coverage:

http://news.google.com/?ned=us&ncl=http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/12737681.htm&hl=en

[Mari333]

64. was the march on mainstream TV news? no

and thats where US citizens in rural USA get their news.

[Scurrilous]

73. Yeah...

...people in 'rural' USA don't read newspapers. Or have internet access. It they don't see it on TV it didn't happen. LOL

BTW...I saw coverage of the march on CNN, MSNBC, and my local TV news. So I call bullshit on your contention there was no mainstream TV news coverage too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. So they had the coverage of 70% katrina

20% march and 10% others? I had no time to watch the evening news.

[Lars39]

22. And C-Span was complicit by not switching to the march itself

at 12:30 when it "officially" started.
How did ANSWER garner enough "pull" with C-Span to allow the focus to stay on them?

[Mari333]

27. yes, it was awful..made me so angry

that the march was given no press at all.

[skooooo]

33. time to get over your anger, i would say...

...and redirect it toward something like Bushco.

[Mari333]

44. Ill get over my anger on my own time.

[reprehensor]

15. Sigh.

Let me know when a Democrat can draw 300,000 to an antiwar rally.

If there was any COINTELPRO-type activity, it was the 'Black Bloc' trying to provoke a riot-cop reaction.

[Mari333]

18. but the march wasnt covered on TV

the only PR that got out there was ANSWERS speakers. They owned the message to the US public.

[skooooo]

29. No one sits and watches CSPAN except us

Most people will see the pictures on the Internet, or catch local coverage of local marches with mentions of the DC march.

That's what I saw.

[Autonomy]

31. If by "the US public" you mean people who watchhours of boring speeches

on C-Span, then you're probably right. But I would bet the house that there were more of us marching in DC yesterday than watched C-Span, and that's what the general public saw.

[Mari333]

47. the march wasnt shown on TV at all

so the US public didnt see it.

[Autonomy]

69. Unlike all the other peace marches regularly

televised? Please. There was no expectation of the MSM covering the march or the speeches on TV. We got newspapers and magazines and limited C-Span coverage. That's all that was on the table from the beginning. The march was a positive. I would just as soon believe that some people on DU are actually counter intelligence agents trying to sow discord than to believe that they infiltrated a marginal TV station with zero mainstream appeal with the nefarious plan to undermine the anti-war movement by showing speakers at an anti-war rally.

[Emit]

81. Yes, and now all the Bush supporters I know

(and it's only a few, but...) are emailing me about ANSWER and saying all of the usual crap I hear from them about how I'm a 'pinkie commie', etc. To them, this coverage of ANSWER by CSPAN just confirmed their skewed view. I knew this was gonna' happen after I watched CSPAN yesterday. Urrgh.

[reprehensor]

62. Sigh. P.II

The Washington Post did cover it fairly well, and the other coverage was spotty.

Just like all the other anti-war rallies.

MSM never gives the antiwar crowd a fair shake. It's business as usual at the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Thinktank-Entertainment-Complex.

I think Steve Earle put it best yesterday when he played at the after-march concert... (paraphrasing)

"...they're trying to keep people out of here, because the last time this many people showed up for an antiwar rally was Vietnam."

At the big anti-invasion rally in LA in 2003, the LATimes headline read "10,000 Attend Antiwar rally" there were 100,000 in the street, funny thing is the photograph they chose to run showed a massive crowd, well over 10,000.

COINTELPRO?

I doubt it.

The bottom line is that the MSM did not cover it sufficiently because the interests that own those companies are tied into the war industry in various ways.

Thank you, CSPAN and LINKTV and Democracy Now!. If not for them, all we would have is blogger coverage.

[bpilgrim]

16. attacking and dividing groups that are working against the empire IS

MUCH more like COINTELPRO.

fyi

peace

[skooooo]

35. WHAT HE / SHE SAID!

[Finder]

137. Agree...and how ironic.

I am disappointed with the slamming of ANSWER on DU.

[Scurrilous]

25. If ANSWER was infiltrated..

..in order to keep people home, COINTELPRO failed miserably.

Perhaps they infiltrated the Freepers by mistake.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. no this is far more insidious, this is about image

control

[skooooo]

32. can i see your tinfoil please?

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. You can see whatever you want

September 11, 2001 happens, they are formed on the 14th and they have posters as far as hawaii on the 20th, you can see whatever you want.

Oh and Ramsey Clark used some of the good ol boys from Intel and their funding is all but transparent... I think my tinfoil is working very well thank you

[skooooo]

43. Well by all means, let's create a big fissure among..

..liberal groups. That will help alot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. The fissures are already there

we are not focused enough, but media savy and message control is critical if we are to win this battle and none of this existed yesterday

[bpilgrim]

42. it's ALL bout image in america, sadly

peace

[Mari333]

36. the march was not covered by the mainstream media

only the ANSWER rally. Its all about PR, and that PR was bad juju.

[Scout1071]

149. Agreed.

I was amazed at the crowds and wanted to see shots like the one a few posts up. Instead, I watched (and recorded) several hours of anti-Israel/Pro-Palestine speeches.

I started to get pissed as they got more and more away from Cindy's message - OUR message - that George W Bush and his administration must be held accountable.

[murdoch]

41. COINTELPRO's main goal was factionalization and neutralization

COINTELPRO did not create fake movements and set them forth, that would be quite a conspiracy. One thing COINTELPRO did, and did well, was try to exploit existing friction to get groups fighting. So if blacks and whites were working together, they would send racist notes to the blacks signed as a supposedly anonymous member of the predominately white group working with the black group. COINTELPRO also worked to get in-fighting in groups, like between the east and west coast Black Panthers. Usually they sought to widen existing rifts when people were trying to work together.

COINTELPRO also sought to neutralize successful leaders, like Fred Hampton and whatnot. This had some success, but was not as successful. I recall they created rumours about some woman who killed herself, so for the FBI, that was a success as well, I suppose.

US intelligence also got behind the "anti-communist left" big time. So any group that called itself left-wing that was virulently anti-communist would often get funding through CIA conduits.

After Watergate, a lot of this funny business came out. It's good to go and read the record yourself, because if you don't, it can all blend together with some wacky conspiracy theories.

Another thing is the agents from intelligence agencies were usually the people who would come to a meeting and say, "Let's shoot everybody, let's blow up buildings". People who promoted physically harming people, or blowing stuff up, were often government agents, or in the pay of the FBI.

As far as ANSWER, I have problems with them but one thing is THEY DO THE WORK. It's always going to be the people who do all the grunt work, who get the permits, who work long, hard hours getting these events to go who are going to have a lot of control over them. I'm tired of hearing people complain about ANSWER, if you don't like them, join up with other people who think they can do a better demonstration and do the work and do it. Hey, I'll come. If all the people complaining about ANSWER got together and organized their own demonstration instead of complaining, ANSWER would shrink enormously in importance. But since ANSWER is one of the few groups to have the work ethic and the initiative to do demonstrations, they often take the lead. United for Peace and Justice will do the work if necessary, but they pay too much attention to DLC DINOs who don't like anti-war demonstrations.

[skooooo]

45. what murdoch says.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. All I am saying is, they learned their lesson

for CONTRIELRRO ultimately failed, this is about perception management. Last Night I saw some of the rally on C-SPAN, and I had to shake my head. This was supposed to be about Cindy, Casey and bringing the troops home... all I heard was Mumia, Palestine and Aceh.

Oh and more Stalinist and Neo Stalinist language than you can swing a dead cat at, hard to miss it.

(Ok, so I heard the speech by Jackson and the one by Cindy, but the point is their message was drowned by Free Mumia, Aceh and Free Puerto Rico, did I mention Cuba?, I knew I was forgetting somebody)

[bpilgrim]

49. people in the streets is the ONLY way we get ANY Perception/IMAGE out

fyi

peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Yes and a laser focused message

so far if anybody was paying attention to C-SPAN they saw a bunch of old style commies telling them that democrats and liberals are anti american and well yes communists.

[bpilgrim]

58. that strat is so DLC, not to mention 12-20-00

it's always worked in the past and especially AGAINST COINTELPRO.

fyi

peace

[Mari333]

53. too bad the news media didnt cover people in the streets

and showed only the ANSWER rally.

[bpilgrim]

60. some did -------------------- ----------------------- > LINK

http://GlobalFreePress.com
(click on the latest protest photos)

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[Mari333]

61. The mainstream media did not cover the march on TV

and believe me, thats where middle america gets its news.

[bpilgrim]

71. no one mentioned it?

i have been finding PLENTY of pics from M$M print sources online :shrug:

peace

[Scurrilous]

88. Don't bother...

...she's made her mind up that the march wasn't covered by the media. No evidence to the contrary will sway her from that position.

[Catrina]

82. Could someone explain how ANSWER

did the work of getting all those people to DC? I was not even aware of them until yesterday, (other than to avoid them, since the rightwingers I know always use them to undermine any arguments that the anti-war movement is not a 'commie' plot against America).

I saw NOTHING on television about the huge demonstration most of whom got there because of groups like:

IVAW
VVAW
Military Families Against the War
Veterans for Peace

and many more organizations like this. Did the media anywhere say that these groups, military families etc. were responsible for the huge numbers of people who were there? The only media article I found prior to the event, was in USA Today, I believe, and it said that ANSWER was organizing an Anti-war rally.

People can say that it doesn't matter what TV does, that all that matters is that those who were there knew about the march. That is a fraction of the population, and yes, not many people watch boring speeches on C-Span, but they MIGHT watch exciting speeches, if they had the chance.

I told many people, people on the edge of whether to support or not support this war, to watch C-Span ~ thinking they would see the huge numbers that were predicted to be there. After the Raging Grannies, who were great, Cindy and the Rev. Jackson, I was squirming and wishing I had not told anyone to watch.

But I kept hoping they would at least go over to the march as the crowd dwindled, to about three people, and the shrill yelling increased, at which point most, except possibly rightwingers for PR purposes for their own movement, had tuned out.

Why is everyone giving ANSWER credit for getting those huge numbers there? Seems to me, they are good at getting permits (they never seem to have a problem with that, oddly, considering how opposed the right is supposed to be to them, while other legitimate groups do) and then everyone else picks up the ball and most people pay for their own transportation etc. so why are they credited with 'funding' the events?

I have no idea what their agenda is, I don't listen to shrill, screamers no matter which side they are on, but personally, I didn't know I was helping ANSWER when I helped people get info on how to get to DC. I actually was avoiding them, and used the info I got from various Veterans, and Democratic Women's groups ~

There was NO TV coverage of yesterday's events. That needs to be fixed. ANSWER hogged the only coverage there was, which was on C-Span. And that is a fact. And imo, that should not happen again ~ because it does matter that people see these events. Fox will certainly give coverage to the PRO WAR rally today ~ and we got zero coverage.

[newspeak]

93. remember the government

set up their own Communist party in the US, then proceeded to recruit members. Is it above them? NO They have set up organizations before, not just infiltrate them.

[Chi-Town Exile]

54. And I'll Say It Again

Why give the Right the proof they need?

They have accused the Left and any anti-war protesters of being Communist Socialist Pigs for 30 Years.

What is gained by proving them right?

Middle America is ripe for the picking right now when it comes to Iraq, I'm sorry if this is hard for some people to understand ...

Mumia IS NOT GONNA FLY for the "American Idol" crowd.

[bpilgrim]

68. "the "American Idol" crowd." ain't gotta CLUE

who mumia is or anything ELSE for that matter... it ain't like the media is covering this as the mumia rally, when they cover it, it's the ANTI-WAR RALLY.

lets not DIVIDE ourselves, work with them... if you want more say over the 'image'

pace

[Mari333]

80. the US public, for the first time, is against this war as a majority

and they will not identify with the Free Mumia shills as representation of who they are. They will identify with Cindy Sheehan and Vets for Peace. We are on the cusp of change in the US, and image is , indeed, a priority. I doubt you can get thru to the ANSWER people to change their image.

[SlowDownFast]

What He Said.

Why is this so hard for A.N.S.W.E.R. and those who keep sticking up for A.N.S.W.E.R. to understand?

Havn't you been paying attention to the successes of the Repugs over the last 5 years? Sure they do alot of straight out lying BUT THEY STAY ON MESSAGE AND KEEP HAMMERING IT HOME 'till America gets it, whether they like it or not or it's the truth or not.

STAY ON MESSAGE!

It's pretty fucking simple, really. And A.N.S.W.E.R. just obfuscates the message of GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW/BRING THE TROOPS HOME/IMPEACH BUSH.

[Beam Me Up]

55. Why doesn't someone ask ANSWER where they get their funding?

Instead of innuendos that they are a front organization, why don't we call them on Monday and ASK?

Look, I have questions too, but one can ask for clarification. I went to the rally in San Francisco. Towards the end one of the ANSWER speakers thanked two organizations for their financial support. One was the Vanguard Foundation. The second one was three letters but I couldn't tell whether it was "L. E. S." or "L. E. F." -- sounded something like that but not sure.

In any case, WHY MUST WE CAST ASPERSIONS WITHOUT ASKING FOR CLARIFICATION FROM ANSWER?

A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition
(Act Now to Stop War & End Racism)

National Office in Washington DC
(Also for International Contacts)
1247 E St. SE, Washington, DC 20003 · [phone]
[e-mail] · www.internationalanswer.org
For media inquiries, call here.

New York City Office:
New Office
2295 Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Blvd., New York, NY 10030
[phone] · [e-mail]

Western Regional Headquarters:
2489 Mission St., Room 24, San Francisco, CA 94110 · [phone]
[e-mail] · http://actionsf.org/

Los Angeles Office:
1800 N. Argyle Ave., #410 LA, CA 90028
(1 block N. of Hlywd. Blvd., corner of Argyle and Yucca) · [phone]
[e-mail]· www.answerla.org

[Jose Diablo]

56. Historically, it's a common thing

to invest in both sides of a conflict. To make money from a conflict by selling to both sides is an old international banker trick. It goes all the way back to the times when kings fought other kings and on the side were bankers selling arms to both sides, encouraging the conflict.

The question is, how could someone know an anti-war movement would come into existence before 9-11? Thats what I wonder about.

But ANSWER did do the organizing and I wonder where their money comes from. Maybe some other group needs to take over from ANSWER, in the future protests.

Let's not get fooled again, like we did in the 60-70's.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Have you read the

Project for a New American Century: Rebuilding America's Defenses?

That is one of their white papers... it is in there, not the peace movement perse, but to manage all aspects of public life... given the history of Nam, they would have been idiots not to consider the rise of a peace movement...

[Jose Diablo]

66. Yep, that would explain how they

hit the ground running so fast after 9-11.

Let's use ANSWER then expose it when a replacement is ready.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. We need a replacement and pronto

[Mari333]

70. I always liked United for Peace and Justice

and the Interfaith Alliance is another great place to start.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Correct, now my question is why are people so afraid

of asking this damn question? I know rethorical, but still

[Cookie wookie]

98. political correctness

and a sense of owing something to ANSWER for what? For their being able to fund what must have been able to come up with tens of thousands of dollars to stage a rally at an event that other groups and people from all over the country who have nothing to do with ANSWER attended.

If you look at the ANSWER crowd after people started to leave in disgust to go march, there sure weren't many people from ANSWER in the crowd or if there were, they left their group to go march. Maybe all ANSWER's members were speakers, just a thought.

They are funded here in Georgia. Actually better than the Green Party from what I've seen.

And the poster who suggested we call is right. Will do that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. You are right

will ask them I know they are not a 501 C, whatever that means, so there are way too many quetions

[Autonomy]

86. I agree. We need a solution to ANSWER

but not because it's run by the government. If they were that good, and the tactics you're suggesting actually worked, then nothing we ever did would ever matter. Thankfully, it's not the case.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. Oh they are that good

historians calculate that the damage done by CONTIELPRO may have cost the lives of thousands of US Troops, and untold vietnamese but most importantly kept many blacks from ever integrating with white society, and the other way around, as the Black Panther was set up by the FBI... that I call success.

They learned though...

Now watch out for any movement you create will be infiltrated, they have way too much at stake... and a public forum (fuck hoover) is not the place to organize this either

but to think they are not good is to delude yourself... it is just that social movements reach a critical mass and all the forces of the state cannot stop it.

[Autonomy]

99. Accepting your premise...

and if I were a count-intel agent, I would use the Internet and simply log onto political websites and insist that the anti-war movement is infiltrated with ultra-powerful spies who can accomplish near-miracles of espionage in any and every group and public communication medium, thus instilling deep suspicion and distrust within any potential group, and minimizing their effectiveness.

That way I would not have to get off my ass and go to some boring steering committee meetings. I could sit home and drink beer and watch football.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. It is known that the GOP has PAID agent provocateours

hell I saw an add for a forum poster... so yes they do exist... and from time to time we even see their work here... granted we are good at smelling most of them, but those are not the pros.

[Terran1212]

72. I've been in operation with undercover agents and infiltrators...

As part of a homeland security exercise I was contracted with (sister is intern with that organization).

They dressed up as interns, pedestrians, and they trained MARTA agents and others.

To think that ANSWER is not infiltrated I think is naive, and even as someone who is not apalled at all that ANSWER was there, in fact, I think not linking issues and standing up for real justice is a CRIME, I am very much concerned over federal infiltration of peace organizations, especially following several recent ACLU developments, including the busting of homeland security agents in Georgia (for once, it wasn't me that busted them).

[bpilgrim]

79. most orgs are 'infiltrated' - zactly

letting COINTELPRO divide us is simply playing into their hand. dismissed

peace

[Jose Diablo]

94. That is why I

signed a right wing wacko I worked with into membership in Atlanta's branch of ANSWER. I mean this guy was a foaming at the mouth, KKK loving redneck.

Don't work with him now, but I wonder if he is being investigated. I wonder how that worked out.

[Cookie wookie]

75. These are good questions. I've been wondering the same

and more. Just where does ANSWER's funding come from, considering what a fringe group they are.

I did some searching today but couldn't come up with anything except that the ACLU has filed FOIA's to find out what inforamtion the FBI is holding on United for Peace and Justice and Boston International Action Center (aka ANSWER).

I've wondered too, about the relationship between UPJ and ANSWER. Is UPJ another name for ANSWER? How are the groups linked? If people planning to go to DC had known that ANSWER would be taking center stage at the rally, not UPJ, would those people have attended the rally?

[Terran1212]

84. "Is UPJ another name for ANSWER?"

This left-wing infighting has just gone insane. Why not just tear apart every left-wing group as an FBI inplant?

[Cookie wookie]

113. Interesting characterization: "left-wing" infighting

Is it "left-wing" to be concerned about the negative and deleterious effect ANSWER's being "front and center" has on the anti-Iraq war movement?

Might want to think a little down the line as well, just in case guilt by association becomes an American way of life in the "domestic war on terrorism." Especially with far right wing judges in line to take over the supreme court, which not too long ago just ruled that the president can't just arrest and hold people without due process because he says they may be a terrorist threat.

The vote when this comes up next time will likely go the other way.

Then with the proposal that the military take over disaster operations (which include "domestic terrorism"), hey, how much will middle America defend those who have associated with known and avowed communists? All they'll see is someone like Sheehan on the stage with "comrades".

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Good point

I hope Good Luck and Good Night wakes middle america up as well, I mean when 20% of pre release crowds asked who played McCartey you know we have a problem

[JHB]

78. You see the "Coalition" part of 'ANSWER Coalition'? There's the problem.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was some sort of COINTELPRO operation going on, but you can't neatly account for ANSWER that way.

Their problem is precisely that they are a coalition of pre-existing activist groups (or their subsequent splinter factions), and they're too damn used to hearing each other's speeches and completely unable to step outside of themselves and understand how their message is being received by anyone not already within their "activist community".

You know the "pushmeepullyuu" from the old Dr. Doolittle movie? The llama with heads at both ends (and apparently no ass to let the crap out)?

You know the hydra from Greek myth? Cut off a head and two more grow back in its place?

Combine them: ANSWER is a "hydrapullmu" with too many heads, no direction, and it ends up poisoning whatever worthy goals it intends because it's too full of its own internal crap to focus on accomplishing any of them.

And does the RW exploit it, SURE. But they didn't make it, they're just using it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. What concerns me is they were formed on

the 14 and were running by the 20th.

What also concerns is that mamy of those splinter groups have been infiltrated in the past... so they could have been formed with infiltrators alraedy in place and that, woudl be an innocent explanation.

Look it is the how fast they were running that has bugged me from word go.

[JHB]

102. As I tried to point out, they are a COALITION...

The people involved were already longtime activists who were part of pre-exisiting activist organizations. We're not talkin' Cindy Sheehan here, having to learn as she goes, we're talking about people who actually are "professional protesters".

Look into what these groups were doing before they organized ANSWER. I think you'll find they tended to show up at the same venues a lot, and already had a high level of de facto cooperation with each other. I'm not at all surprised that such people could form (or rather, announce that they'd form) a protest organizatio and get it running in six days. IMHO, that's these peoples' strong suit. It's in accomplishing their goals that I'd be surprised.

[Old and In the Way]

117. That surprised me too when someone posted that earlier today.

Way too quick to get organized. And how do they control the permitting process? What's their mojo on this? I never see them mentioned except in context to protest marches. But in researching their background, I was surprised to see the role WWP plays. That should bother everyone of us.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2112958&mesg_id=2112958

[KittyWampus]

89. I Wish You'd Post This As A Seperate Thread. You Really Probably Have

it 99.9% right on.

:thumbsup:

[SlowDownFast]

95. Bingo!

Whether or not ANSWER is COINTELPRO, it comes down to the one thing that dilutes the message:

their "coalition" of groups who all have their own agendas.

[Toasted_Halo]

96. At least ANSWER tries!

I'll support anybody who tries, they did a good job getting people out I thought.

[Cookie wookie]

101. If we are to win, we have to

be selective about support. To support a communist group because "they try" seems counterproductive, that is unless one is a communist.

[Darranar]

130. So how exactly is ANSWER "communist"?

More specifically, what aspect of their "communism" do you object to?

[Cookie wookie]

156. Have you listened to their speeches?

Have you read what's on their website? Check out the Minstrel Boy thread here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4878874 . Lots of good information about ANSWER.

Second question:
"What aspect of their "communism"" do I object to?

Every aspect. I am pro-American, I am pro-democracy, and pro-capitalism (as long is it is tightly regulated so that all members of society have equal opportunities and protections under the law).

Communism is a failed philosophical idea that is repressive, and just as evil in its extremism as fascism because, in practice, it perverts and inhibits healthy intellectual and spiritual human development.

[Darranar]

164. ANSWER is not the WWP, nor the PSL.

Do you object to Howard Zinn, too?

The political ideology of communism is neither anti-American nor anti-democratic. It is most definitely anti-capitalist, but we have a long way to go before the question of whether to have "tightly-regulated" capitalism or an alternative to the capitalist system entirely is on the table. Certainly, allying with communists on an issue of imperial aggression is not going to tip the balance.

[Imajika]

104. Really? Anyone?

So you would grant legitimacy and support to anyone that denounces Bush and the war in Iraq?

How about Kim Jong Il? He denounces Bush and the Iraq war all the time. Would you go to an anti-war rally sponsored by North Korea?

Oh wait, ANSWER does support Kim Jong Il and his revolting regime.

We are just lucky most Americans were not watching the CSPAN coverage of the rally. I'd bet most average, non-partisan Americans who actually saw that lineup of ANSWER speakers would want nothing to do with them and by association the anti-Iraq war movement.

Could there have been any more Palestinian flags, PLO coloured neckware and anti-Israeli speakers? Ugh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. It is amazing to me that nobody is willing to ask

the hard qusetions about these people.... I am getting my answers very well and I think I am not off the mark when I say, they are a counter intel operation...

[Scurrilous]

110. Those who can do...

...those who can't go on the internet and kvetch.

ANSWER not only tried, they succeeded. Kudos to them.

[laura888]

112. Exactly! n/t

[Cookie wookie]

138. This isn't kindergarten and we're not

discussing someone's fingerpainting.

This is a dangerous world, getting more dangerous by the minute. The ability to use our collective judgment and intellect is essential to our survival and the survival of democracy.

[Puregonzo1188]

118. Thats a good point

only the FBI could be as clueless as A.N.S.W.E.R. Communist Palestinians reading poems about Freeing Mumia at an Anti-war demonstration????? A.N.S.W.E.R. has definitely been infiltrated by clueless people.

[Cookie wookie]

135. They've always been like that, from

the first rally I ever saw of them on CSPAN. I was so excited and desperate for an antiwar movement to be on tv and when I watched it afterward I was so depressed I couldn't sleep for days.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

125. You should get Lieberman and the DLC to start anti-war demos.

Then you could feel safely "moderate", anti-communist, pro-Israel, and politically correct.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. Has absolutely nothing to do with the DLC

again where did their funding come and how the hell did they get the posters to Hawaii on the 19th. They put them in place on the 20th... I mean USPS was not working well, and neither were any of the express services, such as UPS... delivery on the Islands took anywhere from two weeks (for the express services) to two months for the USPS to normalize...

And free mumia belongs in a bring the troops how rally? I guess so does Freedom for Puerto Rico and Cuba Libre....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

136. It's a Vast Left Wing Conspiracy run from Havana!

Funding, undoubtedly, comes from Beijing or Caracas, or maybe a commie cell in Brooklyn.

So, what do you have against a left wing organization promoting left wing causes? Too "liberal" for you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. Read on Contielrpro and the Black Panthers

funding may be coming from Washington DC... and the people who brought you message control and ... infiltration... oh and TIA (total Information Awareness) which even though is not officially ongoing, you can trust these people as far as you can throw them... and this is what you are discounting at your own peril

By the way, all the way to the 1960s the US Communist Party WAS funded by the Com intern in Moscow... that is a historical fact. but I am raising a very different issue, methinks, if I am right, that ANSWER is being funded by the FEDS. Oh and don't expect proof, as this would be one of them opps clasified so deeply it will take a back hoe and many years to dig it out (thirty + for the Black Panthers)

[Cookie wookie]

141. They are being used to characterize the

antiwar movement in the US. Wittingly or not, doesn't matter as the results are just as destructive.

The problem is not that a left wing organization promotes left wing causes.

The problem is that they are the public face (or farce, whatever) of the anti-Iraq war movement. They are front and center on CSPAN at every march/rally and have been for all the years since the runup to the war.

[Occulus]

142. Mumia has little to do with ending the war.

What will happen if the free Mumia? "Yaaaay! He's free! The war's over!!"

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

No, ANSWER is doing very little good aside from taking up valuable time that could be spent on, oh, I don't know, maybe speeches against the Iraq war?

Palestine has little to do with end ing the Iraq war. Is there really any chance in hell that "issue" will get resolved anytime soon? NO!!! So why devote valuable time on the national stange talking about "resolving" an unending issue?

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

ANSWER has its priorities WAAAY out of whack. At the least. They need to get rid of the wild-eyed beamspreaders and install a focus lens instead.

[Puregonzo1188]

146. Believe me, I'm no fan of Lieberman or the DLC

but that doesn't make a connection between freeing Mumia, and the War In Iraq. Nor does that mean I have to support Stalinist. I went to the march in Washington yesterday. I missed the first part of the rally where the sane people spoke (Cindy Sheenan, Jessie Jackson, etc) and I was shocked at the things I was hearing. I hear more about Palestine, than I did Iraq. Not that Palestine isn't an issue, it just has no place at an Anti-Iraq War Protest. Needless to see I left after listening to it for about 30-45 minutes.

The people from ACTION did not represent most of the people at the march, many of which were Veterans groups. Now I'm not saying there was not a diverse group of people at the march, which there was. Democrats, Socialist, Greens, Anarchist, all kinds of ideologies were there and I am not trying to exclude anyone of them. We need all of them to fight against this war, but that does not excuse them from the need to stay on topic or allow one fringe group to disproportionately represent 300,000-500,000 people.

[npincus]

132. interesting.

I agreee with all you have said about A.N.S.W.E.R.- I was pissed watching the rally on C-SPAN. I've posted also about it.

[Darranar]

143. Yes, let's get rid of A.N.S.W.E.R.

Let's replace it with a nice, kind and gentle "Bush is incompetent" rally.

We can have people like Joe Lieberman speaking, explaining to us how our attempt at the domination of the Iraqi people could have been done far more competently, if we had sent more troops. We can have other Democratic leaders, too, telling us that if only we had bribed and coerced more imperial powers to send troops, we would be able to kill far more Iraqis and force US domination down their throats that much more effectively. We can bring in PPI, and listen to them explain how American global domination is best achieved with other means.

Certainly, we shouldn't allow people like Cindy Sheehan, with their troublesome, revolutionary, divisive, anti-American ideas, like the concept that neither Iraq nor its oil belongs to the United States, and that we have no right to dictate to them how to run their country. After all, we wouldn't want to offend people who like it when the United States murders one hundred thousand people to secure its hegemonic interests. Those are the kinds of people we want to bring to our side, instead. Remember, the Democratic Party is big tent.

And all these implications that the US government has deliberately committed injustices? Let's get rid of those, too. Everyone knows that the United States is the most noble country in the world, with everyone's best interests at heart. And again, we don't want to scare away the ordinary American, who might be upset by the implication - nonsensical, of course - that it is wrong to kill Haitian children so that we can install a properly servile government.

We really don't need those anti-American, anti-Semitic, extremist commies. They ruin our presentation to the American public.

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. Joe Liberman will never speak at a bring the troops home

rally. he may speak at a freeper rally, but will not stand besides Cindy and the rest of us.

So tell me exactly what does Free Mumia do to bring those troops home?

Care to explain to me how Cuba Libre helps?

I am all ears.

[Darranar]

151. That was the point. It wouldn't be a "bring the troops home" rally.

It would be a "Bush is incompetent" rally.

And Cindy Sheehan wouldn't speak. She would make troublesome accusations about American policy.

If you are looking for a nice, moderate approach to things, look to the DLC, and get a rally talking about the unfortunate errors Bush made in his attempt to dominate Iraq, and how, if the Democrats were in power, the domination of Iraq would have been completed so much more effectively.

If you are looking for a real anti-war rally with real stances on the important issues at hand, do not flinch when "extremists" bring up other injustices committed by the American government.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. I am not looking for a mdoerate aproach

read the opening paragraph and deal with the questions I asked.

Then come back to me.

And yes I'd rather listen to Cindy speak passionately about Casey than free mumia... it was about Casey and the 1900+ OTHER troops who have died... not Mumia. It was about the 100,000 Iraquis, last caculus, taht have died, not about Cuba Libre.

[Darranar]

159. So you're looking for a focused, non-moderate approach?

What sort of organization do you think could organize such a thing?

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. UPJ can

and it should and must be done, laser focus on the cause

Free mumia does not belong... neither does free palestine... or cuba libre or libertad para Puerto Rico

[Darranar]

167. Why do you think ANSWER is still running these rallies?

Do you think UPJ is unaware of these issues?

Do you think there has been no pressure for them to take over?

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. Excuse me but rallies have been organized WITHOUT

Answer, now answer this one, why do they get an easy time gettng permits, while everybody else is given all kinds of hassles?

Things that shoould be making you go HMMM?

That said, again how exactly does free mumia connect wtih the issue and how exactly will free mummia convince Joe Six Pack at home that it is time to get off his doff and march?

[Mairead]

163. Permits? They don't have an "easy time", they have a machine

They know how to force the system to deliver. They start early and if the system doesn't deliver, they go to court. Google "a.n.s.w.e.r. coalition" lawsuits

[Walt Starr]

152. So long as the anti-war mpvement makes common cause with Communists

we will be in Iraq.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. Many are having a problem with this

little thing called perception

That said, if these guys were not avowed Stalinists, in some cases of the worst kind... I think they would have better luck. And to think that many Troskytes from the 60s are now running teh government you'd think they would be happy... which is the other reason why I go HMMMM

[Cookie wookie]

165. deleted

[LynneSin]

157. I'm having problems with International Answer

First, I think they shoved out UPJ, which is where I got my info when organizing.

Second, anyone will to be a part of their 'coalition' gets the chance to put a speaker up there for before the rally. That means we get too many speakers diluting the message from the great speakers like Cindy, Ramsey, Jesse, George G. etc. I appreciate the democracy movement in Haiti but I really don't want to hear about their speaker. And personally I find the pro-palenstinean have no purpose putting a speaker up there because this protest wasn't about Palistine AND it's offensive to the Jewish people who might be protesting.

I'll probably do future Anti-War protests because IA and UPJ have the ability to organize large numbers but I'm starting to think these daybus trips I can take from DE is the better way to go. IA needs to look at how Planned Parentood/Naral organize their "March for Choice" protests because they pick speakers who stay with the message.

[pox americana]

166. Next: Conyers and McKinney are Rove plants! (n/t)

[ChiciB1]

168. Just Watched FSTV Program ANSD

Untited For Peace & Justice was one of the FIRST Promoters of this Rally way back in February!!

Is UFPJ communist too????

[Moderator]

169. locking

this thread has gone off topic.