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The REAL problem with A.N.S.W.E.R. is the U.S. public.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:45 PM
Original message
The REAL problem with A.N.S.W.E.R. is the U.S. public.
Edited on Sun Sep-25-05 07:46 PM by Zhade
I've read multiple threads on yesterday's march in D.C. full of sound and fury, signifying something - and that something is, I think, very telling.

Over and over, the same complaints arose. "This is supposed to be about the war!" and "ANSWER always hijacks these things!" Quite a few comments (some perhaps not surprisingly from brand-new posters) centered on the "fringe" issues being "allowed" at the rally.

I won't argue that a scattershot approach is a good thing. In many ways, I agree that having a laundry list of (legitimate) issues diffuses the impact of the event. When posters insisted that the focus remain on holding this administration accountable for all its lies and corruption surrounding the war, I found myself nodding in agreement.

But I want to point out something that may help explain the 'A.N.S.W.E.R. Effect' - an explanation that doesn't rely on unproven assumptions about the organization's alleged rightwing funding or other assorted nonsense. No, the explanation is, I think, much less complicated: people are desperate to make their voices heard, desperate to the point of sacrificing effectiveness for access to a soapbox.

Some of these issues have remained largely unresolved for decades - the U.S. militaristic and, yes, imperialistic interference in other countries' internal affairs to the detriment of those countries' civilian populations, for example. Or the injustices done to the Palestinian people by the Israeli government, or the concerns about political prisoners, some held for crimes that strong evidence suggests they did not commit.

I submit that A.N.S.W.E.R. may be a symptom of the illness that is American myopia and denial.

How many people would show up to a rally that discussed, say, the brutality of the U.S.-backed coup in Haiti? Would the assumed low turnout say something about the worthiness of the topic, or would it underline the problem of a propagandized American public that does not view reality the way the rest of the world does?

I would suggest the latter.

In my mind, the driving factor behind the A.N.S.W.E.R. Effect is quite possibly the fact that, as a result of decades of lies and manipulations of the public on the part of our government and corporate interests, Americans don't understand these issues. Yet to many Americans, and many more non-Americans, they remain important issues that need to be addressed if we are to move toward a future where we live up to the ideals we claim to hold dear.

That groups like A.N.S.W.E.R. glom onto a major march, or even that they arrange one with a loud acknowledgment of the issue of the day and a quiet announcement of other peripheral issues, should surprise no one when the above is considered.

As long as injustice goes unaddressed, desperate groups will try desperate approaches, and those may hurt more than they help. If you want to alleviate this kind of situation, dealing with these peripheral issues is the, well, answer.

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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. There is an underlying core issue and that IS US and multi-national
corporate greed at the expense of human values.

Thank you for your analysis. Very well said.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I'm glad you found it worth reading.
I'm hoping there will be few, if any, flames.

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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Excedlent read. Glad to see you've gotten nomed up to greatest page.
:hi:
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. It's a first for me!
I feel giddy.

:D

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. kicked and nominated eom
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thanks!
NT!

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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree with you...I can't understand why some here get their panties
in a wad over the Palestinian view...I feel that if you say anything about this subject, you are called anti-semitic and I really hate that because it is just not true.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. I have no problem with most of ANSWER's platform, but
this weekend was billed (by ANSWER) as a "March against the war in Iraq", not a "March for every issue under the sun". As far as I know, nobody is stopping ANSWER or anyone else from having rallies that address their issues. The net result of CSPAN's poor coverage became a muddled mess, when it should have been focused on the BS war in Iraq.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I agree.
It's the bait-and-switch that A.N.S.W.E.R. always pulls that is unethical. The other issues are certainly worthy, but not when you've pulled everyone's chain about the war and you KNOW that's why they're coming.

The really bad thing is SOMEDAY it's going to backfire on A.N.S.W.E.R., and since they're the only ones who seem to know how to organize a rally, we'll all end up utterly voiceless.

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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. There was NO bait and switch by ANSWER
Here's their flier:
http://answer.pephost.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ANS_S24flyers

Doesn't look at all to me like a bait and switch. I believe that it was everyone outside of ANSWER (each individual group) that was pushing the protest as a protest for their cause.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I've never seen that flier.
And there have been many, many posters today who have stated that they didn't know any of this other stuff was going to be raised. And we've all seen this tactic used many other times by ANSWER. They know that the antiwar crowd is their bread-and-butter, and they hope that they can get some support for the other issues while they have their attention.

I can't really blame them for this approach - really. But I just think people will get wise to it in time, and it won't serve any of us well.
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mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. That's right, we were a captive audience.

I think their tactics are counter-productive even to their causes (some of which are not good). People don't appreciate it.

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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. All I'm saying is that it wasn't ANSWER that was pushing the Iraq message.
Other sponsors for it may have, but ANSWER didn't.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
75. Well, I have to say that anyone who traveled hundreds or thousands...
...of miles without knowing who was organizing the rally, and furthermore didn't look at that group's website and read the unhidden fact that concerns about the Israeli government, Haiti, and other issues would be part of the rally, have only themselves to blame.

Regardless of how ANSWER handled the rally, it's unreasonable to hold them accountable for attendees failing to inform themselves of the planned speakers and issues.

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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Isn't today's short soundbite politics part of what got us into this mess
The more people understand the underpinnings of this neocon destructiveness, the more they understand this war. We can only hope that some of this gets through the media.
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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. On the contrary, it was "Fund people's needs, not the war machine"
Here's a link to their fliers for the event:
http://answer.pephost.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ANS_S24flyers

One of which was "Palestinian people's right of return".

The Iraq war was only PART of it. It was everyone else outside of ANSWER that was touting it as an anti-Bush anti-IraqWar protest.
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. According to United For Peace and Justice, the co-sponsor,
it was a march against the War In Iraq, and their site (and almost every site on the net) featured this flier I had never even seen the flier/logo about "Fund People's Needs Not The War Machine" till I got to the march and that was on t-shirts.
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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. They are not ANSWER though.
I'll put money down on the fact that many of the co-sponsors and supporters were printing up their own single-message fliers.
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
30. I watched CSPAN coverage, did not see what is painted here. Not a given
And the premise by which almost every post begins: "I also don't like ANSWER" (without any substantiation, "but see the need for the march" etc. OR "OK, ANSWER is bad..." (like smoking I guess). or still again, "despite my dislike of ANSWER", etc. again and again. These are the descendents of those who thought MLK and his methods were communistic or "radical" or thought Muhammed Ali, calling him Cassius Clay, should serve in Vietnam. That they awakened at all I am grateful for, but they haven't ever shed quite enough of that mindset.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
74. "nobody is stopping ANSWER..from having rallies that address their issues"
I think you missed the point of my post - ANSWER pulls this stunt every time because those issues (which many more than ANSWER are concerned about) DON'T make for large rallies, because the American public doesn't understand the import of most of them.

Of course, YMMV.

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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. I admit I haven't read all the many long complaints about answer
here at DU, so can someone, in a couple of sentences , explain the beef? Stopping this war seems to fall under their scope of interest, right? Is ther something "bad " about them that I don't know about? Isn't stopping this war and the neocon insanity behind it a common cause?
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Here's A.N.S.W.E.R.s Coalition:
Steering Committee:
IFCO/Pastors for Peace
Free Palestine Alliance - U.S.
Haiti Support Network
Partnership for Civil Justice - LDEF
Nicaragua Network
Alliance for Just and Lasting Peace in the Phillippines
Korea Truth Commission
Muslim Student Association - National
Kensington Welfare Rights Union
Mexico Solidarity Network
Party for Socialism and Liberation
Middle East Children's Alliance

When ANSWER puts on a rally, they're sharing the podium with all of these groups - many of whom have nothing to do with the war in Iraq. But they all get speaking time - CONSIDERABLE speaking time. People then start to wonder what's going on "I thought this was about the war . . . " etc. People get alarmed seeing folks in Palestinian scarves and talking about Communism - IMO, it dilutes the real message that seems to actually get people out - the anti-war message.

On the other hand, ANSWER seems to be the only group that knows how to get a rally organized, so at least they provide SOME forum and show of opposition. I just don't think it will ultimately prove to be the best strategy.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
92. Read a bit about them...
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. As someone who was there
I don't have a problem with people bringing other messages to the protest, they could have reserved literature tables at the Peace & Justice Festival or handed out literature. I do have a problem with them diverting the rally from the main issue. The rally and the people speaking at it should remain for the most part on topic and ANSWER didn't. Near the end (when the ANSWER related speakers got on) it was becoming less and less about the Iraq War and more and more about all sorts of other issues. Many people got up and left.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. A.M.E.N. Zhade***
You make some great, insightful points as you often do.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
77. And to think, we fought a few weeks back!
That makes me really appreciate your kind words. :)

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. great post
Haiti is an excellent example. The poorest of the poor, brutalized and victimised... and forgotten

You can barely get people to pay attention to many of these issues in "liberal" circles.

I think you are correct in that there is a terrible desperation born of Americans living in bubbles of various diameters and densities.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Yes...Haiti is a disaster and I was glad to listen to the speaker on it
yesterday.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #14
78. When even major Democratic leaders and candidates...
...(I'll leave aside who, exactly) get it flat-out wrong on what happened in Haiti, you just know the issue is being lost.

I mean, we allowed Papa Doc's thugs to take over! That's criminal!

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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. yeah, but ANSWER also shill for and defend North Korea
as well as many other revolting causes

They are an embarassment
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. During part of the rally I was right by the group
Edited on Sun Sep-25-05 08:20 PM by Puregonzo1188
For Pulling the US out of Korea or something like that group. I found that cause hideous, since no one can tell me the South Koreans would be better under North Korea. And as for the people protesting I will say the same thing to them as I will to the pro-war people "Follow your own advice. If you like the North Korea so much go live there. If you like the war so much go fight it. Its easy to propose wars/ideas that will cause so many others to suffer when you don't have to" In this groups defense though, they were mainly drummers and percussionist and had a pretty good beat. They even chanted into their microphone in rhythm with the drums "Hey ho hey ho George Bush has go to go" and "End the US War Machine From Korea to Iraq to The Philippines." The later which I have not been able to get out of my head since. Bad idea, great rhythm (Letting North Korea take over South Korea, not ending the War Machine). B-)
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. The problem is they are not anti-war
they have no problem with war, violence or repression if one of their guys is doing it. If North Korea massacred 10,000 civilians tonight, the ANSWER people would find a way to defend it

Likewise, Ramsey Clark and others actually hung out with Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Clark on C-Span said Saddam "was a man of great strength and integrity." It just shows you how intellectually bankrupt Clark and his followers are.

They also took an extreme pro-Serbia line in the 1990s

The thing is, they have no principles---they just support and shill for anyone who is anti western
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mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Amnesty Intl on human rights in North Korea
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA240022003?open&of=ENG-PRK

"As the UN Commission on Human Rights discusses the human rights situation in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), Amnesty International today expressed its concerns about continuing serious human rights violations in the country and the lack of effective action to reduce widespread malnutrition among the population. ...

North Korea continues to rely on international aid to feed its population, but many people in the country are suffering from hunger and malnutrition. According to a study published last year by the Food and Agricultural Organization, 13 million people in North Korea -- over half of the population -- suffered from malnutrition. Aid agencies have estimated that up to two million people have died since the mid-1990s as a result of acute food shortages caused by natural disasters and economic mismanagement. Several million children suffer from chronic malnutrition, impairing their physical and mental development. Many people in the country also lack adequate medical care due to lack of medical personnel and supplies. ...

Any unauthorized assembly or association is regarded as a "collective disturbance", liable to punishment. Religious freedom, although guaranteed by the constitution, is in practice sharply curtailed. There are reports of severe repression of people involved in public and private religious activities, through imprisonment, torture and executions. Many Christians are reportedly being held in labour camps. ..."

Democratic, my ass. Kim is a tyrant who is responsible for the death of millions of his own people.




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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #18
80. The more I learn about A.N.S.W.E.R., the less I like.
That said, I still feel strongly that the varied groups under their umbrella are so forceful out of a deperate need to address at least most of their "pet issues" (which I don't see as fringe at all).

I don't have to like A.N.S.W.E.R. to hate Ariel Sharon, or to want justice for what we did to Haiti.

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Terran1212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
21. Good post!
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tlsmith1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. The Problem is Their Approach...
...not their message. They come across like a bad parody of liberals. And people *really* want the Iraq War to end & Bush gone. We want it so much that we can't help it if we are resentful when these people playing at being "revolutionaries" hijack our cause. Maybe ANSWER should try a different approach. People would listen if they were more "real". To me, they just seemed like they were playing for the cameras, trying to say "Look at how cool I am! Revolution!" Most people just look at them & say "What idiots!"

Tammy
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:19 PM
Original message
Blaming the organizers is just stupid. (Rant)
I don't care what affiliation they have or what ideology they push. How many people bothered to check to see who was organizing the protest? Did it stop them from showing up? We marginalize the issue by arguing about ANSWER, but really they set up the shin-ding so wtf?

This is why Dems are seen as whiny and decisive, because they are and they do it in public and in volumes. This will allow the Repukes to say to the ignorant among them, "scattered, confused, flaky, liberals can't even decide who they support!"

Sure Repukes have rallies of 50 people, but you won't hear them whining like children about who is there - they all support Boosh.
Solidarity? Well no, not the left.

Rant off.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
40. Yeah, what Rex said! And the OP
I cannot judge ANSWER one way or the other, because I do not know that much about them, (though have learned some things here), and I won't come to a conclusion or opinion on them one way or the other just based on DUers opinions. (No offense intended there.)

I knew ANSWER, as well as UFPJ, were co-sponsoring these demonstrations, but I went because I wanted to protest the war (and Boosh), and that's what I did.

Several people in other threads suggested that if people really don't like ANSWER and don't want to go to anything associated with them, then they should step up, or help another group step up, and organize the rallies. Not a bad suggestion. Not saying it would be easy, but not a bad suggestion.

Maybe there were a lot more ANSWER speakers at the DC event, but there weren't a lot at the Seattle one. There was some mention about other issues, but some of the ANSWER people spoke directly about the war. Most of the speakers we had were not from ANSWER, so I guess my experience was different than the DC attendees.

Honestly, I am getting weary of the sniping, for lack of a better word, from some of the posters here who obviously hate ANSWER. I personally felt very good, VERY good, about participating yesterday, and still do, but sometimes I get the feeling from some of these posts, that my participation is being invalidated because I dared to go to an even co-sponsored by ANSWER. Look, there are a lot of groups out there, and many of them are going to show up at events like these, even ones not sponsored by ANSWER. If I don't want to buy into a particular group's agenda, I won't.

Again, I don't know much about ANSWER and so do not have an informed opinion about them one way or the other. Maybe I'll look into them more, maybe I won't. There are so many battles to fight that I don't have the time or energy to know everything about everything.

'nuff said.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
41. I agree, it was their show and the speeches were the price for admission,
so to speak. But the point is, are they the only ones who can get permits and organize rallies? From what I can see, they are pro's and have been doing it for decades....but the bigger concern I have is, are they reflecting our collective interests? Or are they controlling the message that could easily be turned against us?

Not really dissing them (hell, I'm in the middle of nowhere and I'm in no position to lead a movement :-) ) , but there aren't better buses for us to board?
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. If we could just energize our Dem leaders somehow.
You would think a huge rally would do it. Someone else posted that ANSWER can trace it's origin back to Stalin, well that is horrible if true.

I swear if I win the lottery it will be for another rally in DC! That way NO one will have to fight over agenda. :)
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Here's a link on a thread that I started
Edited on Sun Sep-25-05 10:12 PM by Old and In the Way
Can't really find a whole lot on ANSWER....but this stuff about the WWP is pretty disturbing and I doubt there are many who attended the rally that would find much common ground with these people

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2112958&mesg_id=2112958

People cry about the lack of Democratic leadership. Howard Dean, might it not be in the interests of the Party to capitalize on this momentum? You guys (the DNC) could get the permits, you could do it regionally....a good old fashioned Democratic barnburner type rally. Showcase the candidates for the 2006 race. Demand Paper ballots. Demand a plan to end the occupation of Iraq.

Whaddaya say Howard?

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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Hell ya Howard would energize any rally!
Wes Clark would need to be there, Obama, someone get Waxman out in the sun and let him have a microphone. Make sure Pelosi is a key speaker. Have Dennis ask the question, 'why the hell do we have a department of war but no department of peace?'. Have Sharpton there, Gore, Carter, demand a response to BBV, all the corruption in business and politics. Show a ZILLION replays of Boosh and crew as they lied over and over and over. Remind everyone...'WMD? Not under the table or behind a chair.' Remind people and energize our leaders.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
71. Its about PR. and ANSWER is bad PR.
Its that simple. ANSWER does not play well in rural Iowa.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
93. Actually, A.N.S.W.E.R.'s involvement IS one of the things that stopped
me from going.

I marched against the War On Iraq in NYC in March 2003, and A.N.S.W.E.R. had the same shit going there. It was very discouraging.

Many of us avoided the Washington demonstration for similar reasons, and most of us (certainly I) kept our mouths shut so as to let people make up their own minds. If we'd spoken up about A.N.S.W.E.R. beforehand, we'd have been jumped on from every direction as discouraging turnout. Certainly, I didn't want to discourage turnout.

But when the subject finally came up during the viewing of Saturday's C-Span coverage, we certainly weren't going to hide under the covers, either.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. I don't even agree that ANSWERS issues are legitimate
IMO, most are not.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. What Do You Have Against Self Determination For Puerto Rico?
eom
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Because Peurto Rico has voted on it many times
and the majority has always voted to stay connected to the US
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I Was Being Sarcastic
eom
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. How would cutting ties with the U.S. improve the lot of Puerto Rico?
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. See Above
Is irony dead?
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I tell you, it's hard to distinguish anymore.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
49. Walt, tell us, what are some of ANSWERS issues
Edited on Sun Sep-25-05 10:06 PM by shance
that you claim are illegitimate and that you have problems with. I hear the accusations and yet I see nothing to even show where your complaints even arise from.

I am not as informed on ANSWERS "issues" or even their origin, but I believe they did a great job yesterday, I appreciated what I saw and heard, and felt more informed after hearing from the different speakers. I felt it represented a more realistic and well rounded perspective, and it taught me things I certainly wouldnt hear on the corporatized network news.

If you are more informed on the issues and believe they are illegitimate, then why don't you actually explain some of those issues to us, so you can better inform us of any legitimate argument you are posing? That would be more beneficial than simply throwing out a blanket accusation. Anyone can do that.
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TomNickell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
37. Q: You want to win, or you want to make a point???
Zhade,

The situation in Haiti, awful as it is, will never win an American election. To help Haiti, we need a liberal (Democratic) administration that -will- care.

I've not dealt with ANSWER. I -have- dealt with the Socialist Workers Party, which seems to be their spiritual, if not actual ancestor.

The trouble SWP was never their policies, but that they were far more interested in their manifestoes and their theoretical correctness than in actually getting anything done--Stopping the War (Vietnam) or the Dam or whatever.

Make-believe revolutionaries playing foolish games with deadly serious issues. But keeping themselves safe.

We can find a better sponsor for antiwar protests.
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tlsmith1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Exactly My Point
They are people playing around at being revolutionaries. Just as out of touch & flipped out as the neocons & fundies. I mean, did you notice how much they were playing to the cameras, even when they only had a small crowd because almost everyone left in disgust? Talk about being deluded! They actually think people care!

Tammy
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #48
83. "They actually think people care!"
Bingo. That's exactly the point of my post.

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mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #37
54. "Make-believe revolutionaries playing foolish games"
"Make-believe revolutionaries playing foolish games with deadly serious issues. But keeping themselves safe."

Well said, many of them are very naive. If they had to live in a Communist country for some time, experienced an actual revolution, or even did some serious research into what they think they believe in, I think many of them would wisen up. And they are keeping themselves safe, I think many don't really believe their own bullshit, they know it's a pipe-dream. It's weird that they believe the Communists' con game, when the actual evidence shows it to be false.

Yes, unrestrained Capitalism is bad, but the enemy of my enemy is not my friend. The answer is not to replace Capitalism with Communism, but to have a reformed capitalism with strong unions, higher taxes, better social programs, to clamp down on the abuses of corporate leaders and the mistreatment of workers, etc. Basically, to return to the New Deal. That happens through working to change the current system, not revolution.

You say you want a revolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be alright
Alright alright

You say you got a real solution
Well you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money for people with minds that hate
All i can tell you is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be alright
Alright alright

You say you'll change the constitution
Well you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well you know
You better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know know it's gonna be alright
Alright alright

Lennon/McCartney
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
39. The problem with ANSWER is ANSWER
So the American people are blissfully ignorant of the real workings of international and domestic politics. As the saying goes, "no shit, Sherlock!" What else is new?

ANSWER goes about educating the public in a totally backwards way. Think about yourself for a minute. Did you come to hold progressive ideals through listening to a litany of the abuses of the Empire? Or was it a gradual realization of the state of the world triggered by your exploration of a few key events? The anti-war movement is moving mainstream. Its a key teaching opportunity, a spring to educate the public about a vast array of issues that have been out of consciousness. But people have to first understand the big picture before they can digest the nitty gritty details.

ANSWER stayed true to form; I don't really expect more from them. The sorriest aspect of all is that the left in this country has to rely on relics like ANSWER. The left opposition in this country has matured a needs newer stronger organizing.

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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I agree with your assessment...
We need to build a better bus to carry us in the 21st century...
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Bingo
as u say TorchesandPitchforks, "The left opposition in this country has matured and needs newer, stronger organizing." :thumbsup:
ABSOLUTELY.

There is an inherent clash in these 2 viewpoints:

a) ANSWER does not answer the needs of many in the mainstream to reclaim a unified voice.
b) LIBERALS by definition are inclusive and receptive to a diversity of voices and issues.

------------------
I have to conclude that, as contentious as it is, the dialogue that has grown out of this clash here at DU is good and indicates that the new anti-war movement is defining itself. I'm encouraged by that. There is room and opportunity for those with fresh ideas and vision, those who are not weighted down with old ideologies.

Don't we ALL really know what we want? Keep that clear vision in mind, and nobody can take it away from us again. One of my favorite signs from the DC rally said (something like):
"Why are we here again fighting against this crap?"
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. You're right. It was the war in Iraq that got me looking other places. nt
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. just for perspective
anyone who watches the coverage and interviews with Amy Goodman on Link TV will tell you this a hugely positive and successful event, a milestone!
Don't let the limited C-Span coverage fool you.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
69. But mainstream america doesnt have Link TV
and we now have a majority of americans questioning the war..now is not the time to turn them off with ranting ANSWER speakers, which is all they saw in the MSM.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. not really all they saw
according to most accounts the MSM didn't show the morning speeches in their limited (or non-existant) coverage, exept for maybe a snippet of Cindy Sheehan. As for C-Span I doubt if many 'average Americans' were watching. I think to most Americans the march probably never happened.
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tlsmith1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
51. We Are Changing & They Aren't
ANSWER is the old way of doing things. It's not working anymore. You have to be *real* to people. Those "radicals" seem like aliens to me. They aren't real. I just put them in a category with other "fringe" groups, like the neocons & fundies.

Tammy
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
45. Kick because of the good discussion.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
52. Well Put, Mr. Zhade
The gist of your explaination, Sir, is worth repeating: "People are desperate to make their voices heard, desperate to the point of sacrificing effectiveness for access to a soapbox." You may forgive me for placing the greatest emphasis on the latter portion of that, the recognition effectiveness is sacrificed emotional gratification. This is a long-standing Achilles heel of the left; it is a self-destructive cycle whose course is obvious. The sacrifice of effectiveness for gratification reduces effectiveness, and so nothing real is acomplished, leading to greater desperation, leading to greater pressure for gratificatuin in whatever form it can be had, and effectiveness be damned, till not only our present situation, but something even more impotent, obtains.

The unhappy fact is that success for the political left, success, even, for the revolutionary left, depends on cultivation and exercise of the dowdy bourgeois virtue of discipline exercised towards delayed gratification. There can be no real gratification without real success, and to achieve this everything must be subordinated to achieving real successes.
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SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
68. Brilliant explaination, Sir.
It is truly a vicious cycle of failure due to the left's over-emotional tendencies. Passion is good, except when it gets in the way of organizing the many (by clouding judgement) to accomplish a common goal.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #52
84. See, now you've taught me something.
Great response. It gives me something to consider.

Kudos!

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #84
95. My Pleasure, Sir
Let me repeat: your piece at the head of this is an excellent and insightful one, about the best commentary that has appeared here on the matter lately.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
55. In an otherwise worthy discussion and post, I wish you hadn't
insinuated about the connection between brand new posters and folks who are upset about the rally. Unless that wasn't your intention, it makes it sound like you're suggesting that these folks aren't on the up and up, if you know what I mean.

Or were you suggesting that perhaps newbies (low number posters who may have only just become aware of the issues) weren't "getting" ANSWER for the reasons you state, in which case I retract my comment.
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Chi-Town Exile Donating Member (546 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Good point
Just because we are NEW at posting, doesn't mean we haven't been lurking ... for years in my case.

There are many wonderful resources on this site and this is where I go to find out what is going on.

So please don't assume that because we have only started to post here that we don't know what is going on.

In my case, I wrote off ANSWER when they wouldn't let Lerner speak in San Francisco. That told me all I needed to know about them.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Welcome, and who is Lerner?
You are more informed than I.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. He Is A Rabbi, Ma'am
Associated with the Tikkin organization, a voice for peace rspected by most of good will on both sides of the Israel v. Palestine matter....
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Thank you, Magistrate. Did they explain their reasons?
I'd heard that story, but didn't know the Rabbi's name, and some on DailyKos said it wasn't a confirmed story.

I'd hope ANSWER had a reason for not allowing him to speak.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #61
87. Their public reason was because he criticized one of the involved groups.
They apparently have a policy of not allowing speakers who have criticized any members of the working coalition.

Not sure I like that policy, but it wasn't an example of anti-Semitism.

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Chi-Town Exile Donating Member (546 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Rabbi Michael Lerner
Edited on Sun Sep-25-05 11:10 PM by Chi-Town Exile
I know he has a publication of his own and he is also a regular contributor to beliefnet.

Edited for a typo.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. I'll ask you too, in case you know. Did they say why exactly?
Though I'm starting to get the feeling I know why.
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Chi-Town Exile Donating Member (546 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. This link sheds some light on this
Edited on Sun Sep-25-05 11:15 PM by Chi-Town Exile
Here is a column that David Corn wrote ...

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=385

Edited for a comment I made about linking ... I believe this link works.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. They support Milosevic? Zoinks!
Thanks for the link.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #65
76. Yea they do
and what they did to Lerner is the reason I will NOT go to any event organized by them... and you have no idea how many folks have the same stance
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #76
81. What they did to Lerner??
What happened was his name was floated as a possible speaker. It didn't even get to the stage where he was invited to speak. It was decided not to go with him because he'd publicly criticised ANSWER in the past. What's the big deal with that? There's many organisations who won't give time and space that they've paid for to someone who's opposed to them....

Violet...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #55
82. I'm sure that wasn't Zhade's intent...
I'm pretty sure most of the new low-count posters are on the up and up. But I'm also pretty sure that there's a few who aren't. There's one I've spotted that's been nothing but divisive since their arrival, to the extent of insisting that socialists should be excluded from anti-war rallies so as not to offend 'middle america'. If they are on the up and up, trying to create divisiveness and offending socialist DUers isn't the best way to jump on board...

Violet...
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. Thanks for the backup, Violet.
I've hopefully clarified that point a bit better in a response to LittleClarkie - those lowpostcounters are potential examples of the problem the OP was directed at.

That's not to say they are problems, just that they reflect what I mean when it comes to the general public not being up on the issues.

Cheers!

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. And thanks goes to you for this thread....
With one or two minor exceptions, it's been a great thread to read on a day when I needed a thoughtful thread like this one to put me back on track :)


Violet...
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. Wow, thanks! I'm very glad you and others found it worthwhile.
I'm pleased I was able to get across what was on my mind, and that people found it good fodder for discussion.

Good discussion is why I haven't left DU. :)

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #55
85. It's the second one.
While one or two of the posters I'm referring to sound like possible disruptors, it could just be that they aren't informed on the issues, perhaps from not being exposed to the kinds of discussions (real discussions, not flamewars) on DU.

They are, in fact, examples of the average American whose ignorance (note I do not say stupidity!) helps fuel the furor of the A.N.S.W.E.R. types.

Hope that clears it up!

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Chi-Town Exile Donating Member (546 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
56. Great Discussion
And many very good points were made by all.

Thank you.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #56
88. Agreed, I'm getting a lot out of it.
Thanks to everyone for responding, it's been a good back-and-forth.

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pox americana Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
63. A thought about C-SPAN
They're pretty much all about broadcasting political discourse, so that's probably what they came there to film.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
66. Excellent Analysis and Very Important Suggestion..
Sometimes stating the obvious is, apparently, necessary.

These problems that have gone on unresolved for decades (many of them actually much longer)are indeed serious, need to be voiced and resolved. Forums and Town Hall meetings dealing matters such as Haiti or the Sudan or Venezuela or Indonesia, or the Prison Industrial Complex or Health Care or Living Wage and on and on - should be addressed separetely with as much vigilence and organization as the anti-war demonstrations are.

So I agree, that is indeed the ANSWER.

No, there won't be as big of turn outs as the anti-war demonstrations, but none the less, rallies on each specific issue can be cordinated around the country and on College campus as well as in civic venues from City Halls to State Capitals to Washington DC.

It just has to be focused on separately, despite the fact that all these issues are interconnected, some more loosely than others.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
67. Very insightful, thank you.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-25-05 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
70. the US public is right on the fence as we speak
and they are finally questioning the war in Iraq/ This is not the time to turn them off with bad PR from the left. ANSWERs rally speakers were bad PR.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #70
89. I don't agree with the approach, myself.
I think it's too strident and, frankly, too easy to misinterpret if one doesn't know the issues well.

But I really feel an undercurrent of desperation regarding a number of these issues, many of which even some great liberals are in denial about despite solid evidence of their importance.

By the way, I still think about your loss from time to time, and always hope you are doing well. Your son, too.

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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
72. Great post, Nominated
:toast:
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ladylibertee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
79. Well put..
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
94. thank you for posting this....
I've been astounded and disappointed by the range of anti-ANSWER screeds floating around here.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
96. So why didn't y'all just march with UFPJ like 'most everybody else?
The vast majority of the people in DC on saturday were associated with the rally held by United For Peace and Justice - the coalition that includes Cindy Sheehan. UFPJ is obsessively single minded about the war in Iraq. Yes Answer was there and had their own rally, yes ANSWER wants to pollute everything with their smorgasbord of issues. So what?

As far as I can tell there were technically two marches but in reality everything got mingled and confused due to the late start which was mostly caused by both groups trying to work around the VERY CONVENIENT amtrak malfunction.

But basically who gives a flying fuck what the 'official organizers' think the march is about? I've been going to demonstrations since '67 and I have never cared or been concerned what the pompous self-annointed leaders thought.

This is what Democracy Looks Like! It looked to me like four generations of americans of every shape size and flavor in an ocean of people surrounding the stolen white house. It looked to me like the DC Metro was stuffed with americans talking politics both on my ride in and on my ride out and we all felt connected and we all felt the power. It looked to me like america is on the move, like america gets it finally, like the freeptard world view is losing its grip.

Make your own signs. Bring your own message. Make it your parade.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Unfortunately all rural America saw was the ANSWER rally
and not the march. Its a shame that was the only PR on the mainstream media.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. Exactly!
But people are too afraid of what others are going to think about us if we happen to associated with any other issue, legitimate or not. The one question I have is what is going to happen if George Bush calls all the troops home tomorrow? There are still going to be many issues that are connected to the larger issue of the military industrial complex and the war on poor people in the US and all around the war. I'm not saying the ANSWER was right but I showed up with my kids in tow and I marched for myself, my children and my country.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-26-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. As I explained to my ancient mom and my brother
as I interrupted our bi-annual get together, I can't do nothing. So good bad or ugly, stupid, or not, I'll do it if there is even the remotest chance that it will help. I can't do nothing, and I view all the negativism the preceded and followed this huge and successful demonstration as the 'stay home and do nothing meme'. I reject it. Get out and do something - anything.
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