Does it appear that the more momentum we gain, the more divided we get?

[RagingInMiami]

We've had the largest antiwar demonstration since the Vietnam War and GD is filled with threads about how ANSWER and Cindy Sheehan are detrimental to our cause.

It's almost like some people are scared of success so they find any reason they can to defeat the cause, which is to end the war and remove bush from office.

What I'm seeing here is that we're becoming our own worst enemy.

But what I saw on Saturday is that the antiBush sentiment and the antiwar movement is reaching all levels of society.

It really is no longer about Cindy Sheehan although I don't see her doing any damage to the cause. And it really has nothing to do with ANSWER either. They are seriously outnumbered by those of us who are focused in our anger.

I suspect the next big figure in the antiwar movement is going to be the veterans themselves. Most, unfortunately, are still in Iraq, but when they start coming home -- if they ever do -- I'm willing to bet that they are going to become more involved in this movement.

[AuntiBush]

1. No, No, No.

What you're seeing is hundreds of thousands of Americans that "DETEST" Bush for a ton of reasons.This adm has shoved so much on us, deriding everything we stand-for, is it any wonder so many had a lot to say to this (won't repeat the word here).

That's all. Here's betting everyone up there is against the war "and" Bush. NONE OF US are DIVIDED ABOUT THOSE IDEAS.

[Pam-Moby]

2. I agree.

We will keep going no matter what. We will prevail.

[ConsAreLiars]

3. It's not that "we're" becoming our own worst enemy.

Those who spend their time on DU trashing the anti-war movement as whole by denouncing any particular part of it (Sheehan, ANSWER, vegans, anarchists, whatever), are not "us." They are serving some other agenda, and they are using time-tested "divide and conquer" tactics. See http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/newleft.htm for some historical examples of "how things work" when those who hold state power face a broadly based popular resistance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I am sorry to say it but do google

FBI and Black Panther... you may also want to look into the Tsarist and Russian Intelligence Operations agaist their own people and formations of "popular movements" out of whole clothe to ahem, round up the usual suspects

If you are not paranoid, you are not paying attention.

(Answer fomed three days after 9.11 and was ready to go with posters on the 20th, curious, rather curious)

[ConsAreLiars]

18. That is just silly

The FBI did everything it could to de-fang the Black Panthers - many members were murdered. If you want to repeat the lies that ANSWER is the enemy of (or a handicap to) the peace movement, that is your right, but your Panther-FBI reference is obscure at best. (Yes there was some infiltration, but the goal was to destroy the Panthers, not to advance the Panther message.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I know it is obscure

basically in the 1990s some records at FBI were declassified and they showed that they not only infiltrated the movement but actually helped to create it, why? keep African Americans from integrating with the rest of the society and whites from accepting them.

By the way this is an ancient trick used by many a government, and if you don't like the fact that I will continue to ask about ANSWER that is your prerogative as well... but those who know a little history and have a healthy dose of paranoia will tell you no organization is ready to go off the gate as fast as ANSWER did after 9.11... but go ahead, don't ask the questions

Oh and yes when gov'ments do that blood WILL flow.

[ConsAreLiars]

24. Your "concern" about the "quick response" re: the posters is based

on ignorance. I work as a printer. Anybody in the trade can tell you that getting the work done in a few days is easy. My employer (I work part time) asked me today if I could come in tomorrow and print sone 4-color posters tomorrow. No problem. If ANSWER was UNABLE to get that work done in a few days it would be grounds to question their competence or connections, but the fact that they could accomplish this is definitely NOT evidence that they have secret ties to the CIA.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. ok explain this one

they got those posters to Hawaii that FAST, when the only ones who could get anything to the Islands that fast after 9.11 was the US Military... heck we even got to taste SPAM (as in WW II), because nothing went back to normal in a month, the USPS more or less normalized (never went to pre attack levels service) within a month, and none of the UPS, FED Ex et al could go back to normal for two weeks

Look I have a very nice and strange gut feeling, for the tactics they are using are old... effective and efficient... and I don't mean about the organizing part.

Oh and if you believe your dear government would not do this... I have a huge bridge to sell you... they would, as they have in the past.. nothing like today, but they have...

Their model, if I am right on this and I will not be able to prove it until those archives are opened, is the NKVD...

As I said, we are not paranoid, they are out to get us... and you need to be alert.. I know you don't want to even consider it, and that is ok.

[ConsAreLiars]

26. I'm as (justifiably) paranoid about "them" as anyone.

Been there, done that. And no fan of the "Trots," for what that is worth. But I have also known, worked with and against, the WWP over the years. It's possible that they are tools of the CIA, and it's possible that even DU is such a tool, but I have never seen any evidence. As for your suggestion that I "believe dear government," well, that is a limitation of this media, and no surprise that you do not know me well enought to eschew (there's a fine word) such speculation. I learned long ago that the government cannot be trusted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Good then as they say keep yrou friends close

and your enemies closer, we are not paranoid when we raise questions... we are not.

[ConsAreLiars]

30. Thanks. And remember that sowing distrust

and discord is Step One in any Cointelpro type operation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I know exactly what that is

and the reason why I am asking the questions is... some of their actions... I just don't trust them, you do, that is your prerogative, but at this point I think they are far darker than CONTRIELPRO... that damn historical training of mine... but the parallels (in their antisemitic stance) are too close for my taste to... NKVD and tsarist Intelligence Service Operations, so I will stay away from them... and has nothing to do with being Communist, I could care less about that.

[moddemny]

4. You'll have to forgive some of the people.......

who are anti-bush but didn't sign up for the Communist revolution.

[RagingInMiami]

5. I must have missed that document

When they passed it around Saturday.

All this talk about communists on DU reminds me of all the Cubans in my neighborhood, who swear that a vote for democrats is a vote for communism.

[John Q. Citizen]

8. It's red baiting on DU.

[moddemny]

9. You missed a copy?

Hmmm maybe I'll scan some flyers and post them but you have to promise you won't call me a freeper, republite, redbaiter or other nasty things. I already outlined the problem I have with Communism is this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4895425


I know I am not allowed to have my own genuine opinion though based on my own experiences and those of others, I automatically must be a mole, spy, divider etc. right?

Thanks ahead of time though I know you are going to really try hard to protect my right to free speech.

[RagingInMiami]

12. You have the right to free speech and your opinion

But I was there Saturday and the only thing I saw related to communism was a few teenagers running around with Che Guevara T-shirts.

[libnnc]

14. didn't you get the memo?

Communism is dead. The cold war is over. We've got a new boogey-man to scare us into turning on each other.

Flyers and 4 page newspapers printed by well meaning folks who just want to erradicate global poverty and bring social justice to underdeveloped nations are nothing to go screaming into the dark night about. Don't worry, no one is going to take your property or seize your SUV in the name of "the collective".

Don't go jumping the red herring.

[moddemny]

16. Oh my.......

Communism is dead? I used to think so to, until I went to a few marches......... watch out one of those communist lurkers may sign on to flame you know. That's what happens when I make a brief remark about a che guevara avatar. Your in trouble now.

I didn't turn on anyone, I just had a problem with ANSWER and people turned on me. I am not the guy who goes around writing posts knocking, Bill Clinton, Hillary, Biden, Liberman, Michael Moore, Bill Maher after almost every show, or even Jon stewart.

[0007]

50. A little more transparency would help your cause if you are

indeed serious!

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[moddemny]

13. "politically impotent, moderate democrats."

Hmmm,I wonder how it was that I was standing in front of the White House waiting to get tear gassed on Saturday. I'm sure it was harder for me stand there than for many of you, because I am partially disabled. But I went anyway despite the fact I risked hospitalization. While I am standing there screaming fuck bush, jail to the chief, etc. some a**hole has to stand in from of me waving a che guevarra banner and I have to respect him more than my friends who risked their lives to leave Communist countries? Thanks for all the "progressive" understanding.

[libnnc]

17. well then why didn't you move away from said asshole

with the banner in your face? Like I chose to move away from the deliquent, deliberately placed trolls wearing sickle and hammer CCCP tee-shirts screaming "Death to Capitalists!!"

It. Was. THEATRE. Bad, tacky, performance, freeper-art meant to disrupt and distract. Yes there is a communist party in the US. Yes there were socialists there. But they don't SCARE ME. And they should'nt scare you either.

[moddemny]

22. It has nothing to do with being scared...........

It has to do with

#1 - Principle - I think i posted the link above where I outline why I feel the way I do. I am going to a March based on principle and protesting a criminal regime yet I have to ignore regimes that are worse? Other people may be able to compartmentalize that in their minds but I because of personal experience cannot. So others people can have their principle but I can't? Hmmmmmm, interesting.


#2 - That a**hole with the banner(and thier were a few, a group with a really big banner) discredits my cause and the effort I expend being there.


#3 - Growing up I have a few friends who became Cops and I know their mentality and some are ex military and when they see Communist bull it pisses them off. And I want the Cops on MY SIDE, for obvious reasons which I am not going to lay out here because it is better left unspoken. I have already said to much.

[libnnc]

23. well I don't know what to tell you

I've said my peace. You've said yours. There are lots of people in this country who hate GWB and this administration. Some of those people include folks who are members of the Green Party, Progressive Dems, run of the mill Dems, Yellow Dog Dems, and Socialist Dems. And just to piss some of us off, some of the people who hate this administration are self avowed communists. Shit happens.

Last I heard, it isn't against the law to be a member of the communist party in the US. It doesn't bother me because Stalin is dead. He's been dead for a very long time. So is Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Andropov. I let go of that "commie-pinko-boogeyman" fear a long, long time ago. I wish to hell others could do the same. Red baiting is so 1956. Way out of touch and out of style.

[moddemny]

29. It may be way out of touch and way out of style for you.

What do I tell to friends who have had relatives imprisoned by Communist regimes? It happened to people who I know from the former Yugoslav republics. When I ask them to come to DC to protest Bush am I suppose to tell them to forget about the torture their relatives experienced? I can just see the look on their faces when they see ANSWER wants Slobodan Milosevic freed, I dont think they'll ever speak to me again after hearing that. They expect me to know better. And those are only the ones from the former Yugoslavia which wasn't as bad as some other former Communist countries. I outlined those concerns in this post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4895425


This is about building a bigger movement isn't it? and right out of the gate you are alienating large swaths of potential supporters. For someone who hasn't lived under one of those dictatorships it may be easy to brush off but it's not for the people who were there.


It's not against the law to be a devil worshipper either, that doesnt mean I am going to go hang out with them or approve of their mindset.

I am not trying to be mean and I understand your opinion but I am the one who always gets the .... oh my god! he must be a freeper! response from people who claim they are progressive undertanding individuals. If people tell me they care about Human rights then I expect them to take a hard look at the historical evidence of not just America's wrongs but also of the regimes that are much, much worse and not throw out these reflexive "he must be a troll" responses or Communism is bad but everything wrong in the world is still America's fault. If they don't they cheapen the meaning of the word "progressive".

[libnnc]

34. I don't think you're a freeper at all

You are very anti-communist. Nothing wrong with that. I minored in Russian Studies at university. I'm very aware of Stalinist communism. I'm also aware of how the more idealized view of communism was villified--leftist thinkers and artists here in the US were labled "communists" for opposing corporate gluttony and fighting for worker's rights. Here in the states, innocent people were harassed, their careers ruined, they were jailed and some were executed for having so-called "communist" ties.

Witch hunts by power hungry tyrants are horrible no matter which side of the Atlantic Ocean you're on. We've had our share here. And we don't want to go back to those days ever again. I know who my enemies are. They aren't from Russia or Eastern Europe or Cuba. They're right here on my soil and ironically they're the ones telling me who I should fear and who I should trust.

[moddemny]

40. "You are very anti-communist. Nothing wrong with that."

It's ok to be anti-communist? gee thanks, I feel so much acceptance. So it's not too much to ask that people drop Che Guevarra as a symbol of protest? He was basically a thug after all. Why not pick a guy like Vaclav Havel, the Czechs had a nice peaceful revolution I wonder why I don't see his name thrown around. Or how about Lech Walesa? Isnt the anti communist revolution in Eastern Europe one of the best examples of a peaceful overthrow of tyranny. I wonder why so many DUer's have selective memories. There are a lot of good historical models being overlooked.

I know the right wing accuses many people who arent communists or socialists as being so, I dont consider National Healthcare, Social Security, or Labor Unions as communist or even socialist. Some right wingers would even consider a water utility or the trash collector a Communist. Do we really have to throw them a bone with a group like ANSWER though?

[ConsAreLiars]

7. I didn't see the sign-up sheet

at the march I participated in. Where did you march, and was the Communist Party sign-up mandatory for participation?

[Qibing Zero]

52. Yep, communists marching beside libertarians.

Where were you? Are you just too good to be seen with people you disagree with on certain issues even if you both have a common goal in mind?

Don't bullshit with us.

[moddemny]

53. "Don't bullshit with us"

I think your confused about who is spreading bullshit, I called it as I saw it, I make no apologies for not liking ANSWER or any other extreme hardore communist apologists. I have outlined why I feel the way I do in this thread and others that I linked to. They are valid critcisms. I understand you may be the one who has a problem with a well grounded opinion. You can keep going pretending to be an open minded progressive.

There is another poster in a recent thread who asked how people would feel about marching with a neo nazi group if they happened to be anti-war, a good question to put things into perspective, when I find the link I'll post it. Millions of people around the world suffered under Communist repression, How dare you accuse me of spreading bullshit when you simply brush aside their history? I am not the ones who alienated tens of thousands of potential supporters with the ridiculous positions a group like ANSWER takes. You talk to someone who survived the massacres in Bosnia and then tell me you want Slobodan Milosevic free. Keeping running around pretending your for Human rights and other progressive ideals while you piss on some of the true heros of the late 20th century who stood up to real tyranny.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. As movements grow you will see this

the early egos try to stamp the later egos and so on.

My experience is I really don't have an ego when it comes to this... my first demo we were 20 people, Saturday there where 2000+... the first was over the election, this was over the war... (well with usual dilution)

So that is part of the growing pains.

I have said this before and I will say it again, because of ANSWER's antisemitic stance, (aka they kept a Jew off the stage because he is a Jew before the war started in San Fran) I will not go to anything organized by them... and if they had been there on Saturday... I would have picked my ball and gone home... their communism does not scare me, hell I can go down Marx and Engels with the best of them... and some of the theory I am currently using in creating some fiction... and I did study history and social science with some hard core marxists, but my problem is their antisemitism, and quite frankly how they insist on having a Cuba Libre rally in the middle of a Peace demonstration... poor judgment methinks

That said, after much thinking I am starting to suspect something far more sinister for them (yes read CIA), and I cannot prove it, and will not be able to prove this gut feeling, for at least another 30 years.. assuming I am still around. But that is a whole different ball of wax.

But as to the division, it is natural, happens ever time.. read about the civil rights movement, or the anti war demonstrations of the 1960s... perchance for a dramatic example, read about Leon Trotsky and Stalin... Leo lost, he got a bullet for his efforts.

Oh and before anybody says it, I am not a communist either, the system when put in practice failed misserably... just as unbridled capitalism is failing miserably.

But hey all ideal systems do fail, and we will need to move on, taking the best from human experience... I hope.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. Yr still repeating that crap about Rabbi Lerner??

I have said this before and I will say it again, because of ANSWER's antisemitic stance, (aka they kept a Jew off the stage because he is a Jew before the war started in San Fran) I will not go to anything organized by them..

They did NOT keep Michael Lerner off the stage because he's Jewish. That nonsense has been refuted in other threads you've been posting in, so why do you keep on repeating it? The idea of Rabbi Lerner as a speaker was floated, and it was decided not to go with him, not because he's Jewish, but because he'd publicly criticised ANSWER in the past and they had a policy of not giving time or space that they'd paid for to people who publicly criticise them. How is that anti-Semitic??

Violet...

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Not according to David Corn at the Nation

and for the record he is far more of a mench than A.N.S.W.E.R

Oh and their little action has actually cost many protestors and participants ok... a friend of mine saw the events on C-SPAN and now she is fully convinced she wants NOTHING to do with these marches, thank ANSWER for that one

[fujiyama]

42. Don't you know...

Corn is CIA! :sarcasm:

Anyone of us that opposes an organization that gives a stage for apologists of dictators is apparently DLC or a coward.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Nah, just a liar...

And I have a massive problem with bullshit artists and their apologists...

As I've never said that anyone who opposes an organisation is DLC or a coward, not quite sure why yr going on about it in this post...


Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Then David Corn is a fucking liar...

That's for the record, y'know. You've been told the facts, which you can check for yrself if you do a bit of research. Another thing that proves yr repeated false claim wrong is that ANSWER do have Jewish speakers at their rallies. Or are you going to ignore that as well?

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Here's some FACTS for you...

I'll post it in the hope that when you criticise ANSWER in future, you do it armed with facts and aim yr ire at something they're actually guilty of. You'll garner more respect that way...

"According to the statement posted on the United for Peace and Justice website, it was Michael Lerner's public attacks against one of the anti-war coalitions that, "resulted in his not being formally proposed as a speaker on Feb. 16; his views on Israel and Palestine had nothing to do with it. Within the anti-war movement, there is a wide spectrum of diverse and opposing views regarding Israel and Palestine, and those views will be heard on Feb. 16. On that day, two rabbis, David Cooper and Pam Frydman-Baugh, both of whose views are similar to those of Michael Lerner, will be speaking."

http://www.alternet.org/story/15185/


And here it is from the UFJP website:

We would like to clarify the misunderstanding regarding Rabbi Michael Lerner's perception that he was "banned" from speaking at the peace rally. His charges are untrue, and we wish to set the record straight.

As the Bush Administration continues its relentless drive toward war, the mass mobilizations in cities around the world on the weekend of Feb. 15-16 have taken on great significance. Millions of people are expected to demonstrate in cities around the world in what may be the last opportunity to stop a new war on Iraq before it starts.

In the San Francisco Bay Area, four coalitions - each comprised of many organizations and individuals - have come together to sponsor a broad and united anti-war march and rally on Sunday, Feb. 16. The four coalitions - Bay Area United Against War, Not In Our Name project, United for Peace & Justice, and the International A.N.S.W.E.R. (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism) Coalition ˆ have been working together successfully for the last several weeks to maximize the turnout on Feb. 16.

One of the first agreements that was made between the groups organizing the Feb. 16 anti-war protest was that none of the coalitions would propose rally speakers who had publicly attacked or worked to discredit one of the coalition groups. When members of the Tikkun Community, who have actively participated in the organizing meetings for Feb. 16, suggested to Bay Area United for Peace and Justice, that it propose Michael Lerner as a speaker, it was explained by members of UFPJ that since he had publicly attacked A.N.S.W.E.R in both the New York Times and Tikkun community email newsletters, his inclusion in the program would violate the agreement among the Feb. 16 organizing groups.

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=945

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. You can give me all the facts you want

International A.N.S.W.E.R is an antisemitic group, they are, they are driving people away and if you cannot live with it I don't care

What is more, their antisemitic tactics are out of the handbook for Teariest Intelligence, yes the same people who brought you that other gem, called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and if you want to call me a DLC tool go for it, I can call you names all night as well, including antisemitic, Communist and Red... but I won't, you want to believe in the ideals of Communism go for it, just as Capitalism it has failed... at least the idealized version because utopias don't work

That said this group IS antisemitic, and is pushing an antisemitic agenda... and any body with some knowledge of history can tell what play book they are using... whether they are using it on their own (Trotsky and Stalin and all that), or they are doing the bidding of the CIA is open for discussion, The latter, if they are, will not be proven for a good thirty years at least.

So go report me to the mods, go ahead, that is all you can do...

Oh and don't start with anti zionism is not antisemitism, it was when Echeverria gave his speech at the General Assembly back in 72, just as it is today...

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Okay, so yr not interested in facts...

Yr coming through loud and clear on that. Jumping up and down hysterically and yelling that they're anti-Semitic when proof is given to you that yr accusation against them was wrong isn't convincing at all. This discussion with you's got zero to do with communism or any other red herring you try to throw into the mix in an attempt to divert attention away from the fact that you wrongly accused ANSWER of banning Rabbi Lerner because he was Jewish...

Why should I report you to the mods? I think yr post should stand as an example of what happens when someone isn't interested in facts :)

Violet...

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. RLOL

Ok, whatever, fact is ANSWER and some sections of the American Left are engaged in antisemitism.... it is sexy and trendy

You are the one not interested in these facts nor do you want to deal with them

By the way, I don't care if they are communists so don't put words in my mouth... but I do care that they are anti semite and that Jewish College Students today are afraid for their lives at campuses... how long until this BS translates into hate crimes? Oh wait it already is happening....

Oh and those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it, and you dear madam are refusing to learn from history.

Which is funny at many levels given that Marxism is ABOUT the dialectic and the study of history and the passage of history.

[spindoctor]

19. No, our diversity is our strength

We may not agree on all issues but we have enough common ground to build a strong foundation.

It has always been that way, it gets more apparent as we get closer to the goal. Don't worry about it. It's democracy in action.

[devilgrrl]

20. No. Just a lot of trolls unleashed to try to bust it up.

In fact, I've got a feeling this tread will bring out more. :evilgrin:

[rman]

28. it's make-believe division

Who'd benefit from us being divided? Who'd try to divide us? Is it possible for people who are not ours, to come to DU and post dividing messages? Nah, to far-fetched... or is it?

Many of the people who are critical about ANSWER did in fact go to DC and do support Cindy as ever before.

[mogster]

33. Interesting discussion

From both (or more) viewpoints ;-)

Why no votes? Recommended!

[radfringe]

36. it's what happens when a "uniter" divides

The biggest divide is the "uniter" -- we've been split into many camps depending on the issue

The only point since January 2001 that we have been united as a country was just after September 11, 2001 - and that lasted only a couple of months.

All sides of the aisle are wandering about, angry and lost. There is no ONE issue or leader out there that we can unify behind.

An interesting note - in Pennsylvania - the state legislators voted themselves a raise. Many people are upset about this, they see their paychecks are not covering expenses, local property taxes are going up, gas and heating fuel going up, no light at the end of the tunnel - and the state legislators give themselves a raise and refuse to consider raising the minimum wage.

Yesterday there was a protest outside of the the State House in Harrisburg. It wasn't a right vs left, liberal vs conservative crowd - it was a mixed crowd encompassing the political and cultural spectrum. For Pennsylvania - this was a unifying issue.

On the national stage - is there one issue that can/will unify us all?
Is there one leader out there we can all get behind?

[radfringe]

37. duped again - self-delete

[radfringe]

38. dupe - self-delete

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Interesing errorr you got three mesages, that said

good question, in the 1960s leaders emerged

In my view Cindy Sheehan is potencially one of those leaders, but most likely another person will emerge

People are gonig but we can get behind this or that politico.. when the leader that will unify the country emerges all that talk will be over... and it will NOT be a politician (why I think Cindy may be that leader, and if this is Cindy, she still needs to learn a lot about how to run a movement)

Now on my down days, if a leader does not emerge, and they have every time this country has a crisis... then we may very well hang that shingle called the US.

[sandnsea]

41. Again, REMEMBER THIS

The next time you're tempted to post a piss on Dem thread. The divisive ANSWER bashing threads were no more helpful than the Dem bashing threads are. And if you respond that it's just constructive criticism of Dems, well then that's what the ANSWER bashers are saying too. Either you focus on your part of the message, or we stay divided.

[rman]

43. Is constructive critisism of Dems and ANSWER even possible?

Is there a basis for constructive critisism, or does any critisism equate to divisive bashing? The latter would imply that Dems and ANSWER are beyond reproach.

[sandnsea]

44. There isn't any purpose to it

It isn't constructive criticism, that's a sorry excuse to substitute spewing for action. You can beat your dog from now until it dies, but if you never teach it anything positive, it'll never change.

[rman]

51. There's no purpose to constructive critism?

Or did you just not answer my question?

[moddemny]

54. "substitute spewing for action"

That's a common line thrown at the ANSWER critics, that they just complain. I don't like ANSWER but I still went to the march.

[bemildred]

55. The more momentum we gain the more attempts are made to divide us. nt

[Mr_Spock]

56. It's normal for this to happen to some extent.

We'll eventually realize that we have to keep our eyes squarely focused on the prize - at least that's the way it's supposed to happen!

[KG]

57. no.

the DUers that whine that ANSWER and Cindy Sheehan are detrimental to the cause are a vocal minority of idiots that just don't get it. forget about them, coz when it comes to manning the barricades, they won't be found.

[moddemny]

58. Your the one that doesn't get it.........

If you had scrolled through some of the anti-answer threads you would see what the thrusts of the complaints are, if you didn't that's your choice to be ignorant. I was there at a barricade right in front of the White House, I went there even though I am partially disabled and I still don't like ANSWER. I haven't seen the anti-cindy thread so I don't know where that started but the anti-answer folks are not anti-cindy. Because of my diability I could not stay until Monday but if I could I would have probably been there getting arrested with everyone else. I was almost arrested at the RNC when the riot police moved in to clear protesters off a corner near 34th street.

[KG]

60. i know what the complaints are, been hearing them for years.

they're commies. yawn.

but, do let me know when one of those firebrand moderate group stages a peace rally that brings 200,000 people together. i'd be real interested in attending one of them. :eyes:

[moddemny]

63. The group doesn't have to be moderate......

they just have to be benevolent radicals and not do things like call for the release of Slobodan Milosevic. On Saturday United for Peace simply had to dump ANSWER. You know what the complaints about commies are but I am assuming by your statement you haven't live in a communist country. It may be boring to you but it wasn't a small issue for people who lived under harsh marxist regimes. I choose not to piss on real dissidents who faced real tanks and real slaughter, the way ANSWER pisses on them.

[jonnyblitz]

59. they won't be found is right. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Right, so apart of demonstratiing what else

have you done? care to compare notes?

[baby_mouse]

64. Yes, but it doesn't matter

The larger a group gets the more difficult it is to control by peer pressure, but the anti-war movement doesn't need to be controlled. In fact it's better if it doesn't have a convenient centre for the RW media witches to discredit.