I Have Had It

[RoyGBiv]

I am going to try to remain civil during this very brief, but scathing rant, and then I am going to bed before I say something more profane. So, if there are any smarmy replies to which I should respond, and this thread doesn't get locked or deleted, I apologize up front for not addressing them sooner.

I come here, day after day, and I watch Democrats get bashed left and right. Where are the Dems? The Dems are cowards! Dems suck! We need another party! I'm a Democrat. That's why I'm here. That's implicit in the site name, and it is spelled out in the rules. I often wonder why I see more ridicule of Democrats here than I do on the daily news.

But that's okay. I can look past it, mostly. Some Democrats need quite a bit of criticism. The blanket condemnations are annoying, to say the least, but I have come to understand I just have to deal with it. I'm adjusting my beliefs to accommodate those who disagree with me, whether they offer me the same courtesy or not.

But, tonight, just now, here, in THIS forum, I have seen something that has finally sent me over the edge. I saw Cindy Sheehan questioned, not just questioned but implicitly cast aside, challenged on whether she was "helping" anymore, as though she is an expendable commodity to be thrown away when her presence no longer draws the kind of attention it did during her intentionally brief yet far more influential than anyone had ever suspected stand against this evil, illegal regime. Her courage is implicitly thrown away as not helpful anymore, and just to fill out the suit, Democrats, as a whole, are again bashed for not doing enough to make her more relevant. Commodities. Bought and sold.

Well, fuck that.

The day I see any of these people out in the middle of the firing line, in ditches, grieving over their dead family, trying to make a difference without a thought to their own advancement, willing to sacrifice their own precious freedom in any way even similar to what Ms. Sheehan has done -- or for that matter the countless Democrats who are political leaders or individual fighters in this war against the filth that occupies our White House -- then I *might* listen, if I think they are being helpful.

Good night.

[Erika]

1. There are a lot of trolls who post here

many with over a thousand posts.

[Psephos]

33. One person's troll is another's gadfly is another's teacher is another's..

I agree there are trolls aplenty. But that's like saying cats have fleas. It goes with the territory. Not just on DU, but on all political forums.

But are trolls such a bad thing? What, exactly, is a troll, anyway? Someone whose views are different? Unfortunately, that is some people's definition. (BTW, this isn't directed at you, Erika.)

What good would it be to even have a forum if everyone had the same opinion? I suddenly have mental pictures of the endless rows and columns of like-minded people at a Nuremberg rally.

Practically speaking, I divide the trolls into two groups. Site roaches, and wrong thinkers. Naturally, the wrong thinkers are everyone who doesn't have the same opinion as me. :-0 My policy is to tolerate them civilly, provided they stay away from personal excoriation. Sometimes I actually learn something from them too, which, come to think of it, is kind of the whole point here. The site roaches, on the other hand, are those who get perverse delight by making inflammatory or inciteful posts, and my tolerance for them is very low indeed. The moderators do a reasonable job of weeding these out, anyway.

Tolerance, it's been often said, is the hallmark of the liberal mindset. Civility, I might add, is another. I am willing to tolerate a wide range of opinions regarding Cindy Sheehan here. I hope others feel the same way.

Peace.

[nolabels]

47. Cindy Sheehan is one them rare people who can show whats in her heart.....

and not be afraid of what other people think of it. As for the gadflies, fleas or whatever, the world cannot function without them.

If all life was so purposeful, it would be utterly boring and probably unbearable.

Btw wouldn't it be hypocritical to protest about protesters protesting about other protesters?

[Psephos]

52. Luv your last line :-)

[melody]

56. People offering a genuine opinion are not trolls

Trolls are the bane of every public forum (having run them, and having sworn to never, ever do so again, I know too well). They no doubt see themselves as "dadaist" internet figures, but I think they are pathetic and ruinous slime. They block real debate. They flout and even defy public forum rules put in place to provide a means of discourse, not to inhibit it. They freely and overtly (especially on Yahoo's message boards) take obnoxious racist, sexist or jubilantly sociopathic stances that no sane person could possibly embrace. They take twice the time and energy of every sane poster and are otherwise pointless members of any community.

They also tend to be cowards who are terrified of real discussion, so they cloak tiny opinions behind "great and powerful" ones.

Trolls AREN'T giving a real opinion - they are preventing them from being exchanged. Anyone giving a genuine opinion (even within the perspective of other cultures where free and earnest insulting is encouraged, such as Parliament or some US talk shows) is a different person altogether from a troll, at least in the original intention of the word.

I don't care what anyone thinks, so long as *they* think it and are willing to put their money on the table.

That said, the initial poster was merely offering his/her opinions and should be allowed them also. I happen to agree with them.

[beam me up scottie]

57. Well said.

A lot of people agree with him.

It's easy to see why hardly any of them ever speak up.

If you do you're a troll, a freeper, a disruptor, etc.

Geez, atheists don't get treated this badly when they question god.

[Joe Chi Minh]

83. "beam me up scottie"

Willingly.

[beam me up scottie]

94. As if you could.

Oh brother.:eyes:

[Psephos]

69. Thoughtful post n/t

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wellstone_democrat]

2. Amen brother, amen....

n/t

[Lex]

3. I agree 100% with what you say.

It's sick the way some people "play" politics like it's a SIMS game to them.

These are real people.

[SteppingRazor]

11. You mean it's not like a SIMS game?

But seriously, I agree too, for what it's worth.I think you should be able to question anyone, including Sheehan. But this deliberate casting her aside like yesterday's news because, to some, she doesn't fit the current agenda, is just appalling.

We're the big tent, remember?

[leeroysphitz]

92. It does seem appalling...

There is practical and pragmatic political strategy which I understand and sometimes grudgingly support and then there is downright heartless cynicism which I think we here at D.U. ought to leave to the republicans. (Since I'm pretty sure no one can really hope to beat them at THAT sleazy game anyhow.)

[jonnyblitz]

13. that is a good analogy...

:thumbsup:

[niyad]

4. you can rest easy, what you said is absolutely accurate. sweet dreams.

[roguevalley]

5. cindy was the first breech in the dipshit dike that has held us hostage

all these years. She's got more guts than everyone in congress. I agree with you.

[Stand and Fight]

6. No disagreement from me. Recommended.

I agree 100% and am tired of the haters on here.

[Der Blaue Engel]

7. Bravo, RGB

You said a mouthful.

[ConsAreLiars]

8. Don't let the bastards get you down!

The Cons have their agents here as everywhere. No surprise.

[VTMechEngr]

9. I dream of a day we Democrats will unite and save this country.

I'm tired of us standing on the hill watching the train wreck below.

[cynatnite]

10. sigh

It's a forum. People post what they want, say what they want and how they want.

You've got some choices. Get a thick skin. Ignore it. Or start a thread more to your liking. You did. You posted a rant.

The one thing to keep in mind is we all may not agree with the varying opinions on different topics and issues here...we all do agree on one thing: GET RID OF BUSH AND MINIONS.

Methods, tactics and other forms are at our disposal and we all vary in the ones we choose to exercise.

Face facts. I will not, in any way, follow the crowd, walk in lockstep, or say the same exact thing as everyone else. If I did, I'd be a goddamn republican.

I'm a Democrat and damn proud of it. I don't have to share your opinions or others in order to be one.

[Spiffarino]

18. Right on!

Face facts. I will not, in any way, follow the crowd, walk in lockstep, or say the same exact thing as everyone else. If I did, I'd be a goddamn republican.

That's exactly why I'm here. I don't always agree nor do I follow in lock-step. I am a proud Christian who enjoys hearing from atheists. I don't care at all for socialism or communism, but it's still great to read their posts here.

It's a big, crowded tent and occasionally somebody farts; I'll get over it.

[yodermon]

67. lol

what a great analogy.

Know i know why freepers are so uptight, they're all bloated from holding in their dissenting farts.

[Joe Chi Minh]

82. The problem is will they get over you?

You don't care at all for socialism? What, just the law of the jungle? It's not that big a tent here.

[beam me up scottie]

95. Here?

Where?

You're in Scotland.

In case you're wondering, the tent is not THAT big.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

29. I wonder if that's our Olds we used to have years ago...

sounds familiar.

It almost reminds me of my RW mother. Her fundie ways and avid support of bush drives me crazy. There've been other things that she has said that has just set about set me off and once I almost got kicked out of her house for it.

Then what does she do? She volunteers at a homeless shelter, does food drives, gives out money to those who need it the worst and would probably give someone the shirt off her back. She's got a heart of gold that blows me away.

And she laughs at all the bush and republican jokes I tell her.

:shrug: I don't get it either.

[Vektor]

37. Clever, but goodbye.

:hi:

[cynatnite]

42. hmm...don't I feel sheepish

:blush:

[Vektor]

45. It's ok - you were just trying to be sociable.

But I smelled that one's stank from a mile away. He was a Baaa-aaa-aaad man! :-)

[beam me up scottie]

12. Bullshit.

The poster was very respectful of Cindy and simply stated that they "think she is helping move public opinion in our direction any more".

How in the world do you get "her courage is implicitly thrown away" out of that statement?

And since when does someone have to lose a loved one to this sham of a war to be worthy of voicing their opinion?

Have you?

[Mr_Spock]

72. Wow , you are even defending the other post over here!!

How DARE anybody question someone who proposes casting aside Cindy Sheehan - igniter of the peace movement.

How DARE they!!!

[beam me up scottie]

96. It's a good thing

you decided you liked me in the other thread or I might just have cried when I read this.
:hi:

[SeattleGirl]

14. No argument from me!

The "Cindy is of no use anymore" thread or threads but me, and frankly I don't look beyond the post title. If someone is "tired" of Cindy, fine, don't pay attention to her any more, but please don't try to convince me to join you. I kind of like to think for myself.

Have a nice sleep, RoyGBiv! There are lots of trolls around, but there are even more GOOD people at DU!

[Meatwad]

15. It seems like 7/11 is giving out free Haterade.

And it's making me sick.

[beam me up scottie]

19. Posting one's opinion is NOT hate.

Trying to foster hatred towards dissenters is cowardly and unworthy of a liberal progressive, IMHO.

[LittleClarkie]

16. Were you at all conflicted then

when Cindy went after Hillary Clinton?

[jonnyblitz]

20. i stood up and cheered. nt

[LittleClarkie]

22. Did you hold the OP's opposing viewpoints

about going after Democrats and going after Cindy? Considering Cindy did what he says annoys him, it was interesting to me to find out if he was conflicted at that moment.

[beam me up scottie]

30. Good point.

I doubt the op will make the connection.

Neither will the posters who compare dissenters to freepers and insist that you have to have a dead child to opine.

[LittleClarkie]

38. Too much like being called a Communist

for being a Democrat, or unAmerican for criticizing Bush. She's a woman with a dead son. That gives her a certain platform from which to speak, and power behind her words. It does not, however, make her infallable.

[beam me up scottie]

48. What a bloodthirsty crowd.

All because of a mis-characterization of a post most of these people never even read.

I specifically remember reading:

"I honor her son's sacrifice and her sorrow.
And she obviously has every right to keep on speaking out"

And now this person is a troll?
A freeper?

For speaking his mind?

Respectfully, no less?

[fujiyama]

62. Well said

nt

[frankly_fedup2]

121. Good point made. I don't know why suddenly we cannot express

our honest opinions regarding the way we look at issues and/or the people that raise them.

It's almost like you said if we question Bush we are unAmerican and traitors.

So does that apply to Cindy Sheehan too? Have we made her a martyr for the Democratic Party? Because if we have, we sure have put a lot of pressure on a woman who has already lost her son as well as her family because she is speaking out against the lies Bush used to get our troops in Iraq. I don't know how she holds herself together at times. I couldn't do it!

I missed Cindy's criticism of Hillary. Do you remember it? I would like to know what she said.

[ruggerson]

17. If you want to keep lying about what I posted, go for it.

If that makes you feel better.

But it sure doesn't engender any respect for your words. Because the pretext underlying them is nothing but venomous smear.

Have a good sleep.

[Erika]

21. -huh-?

Oh, well.

[donheld]

23. I'll trade the whiners for more Cindy's any day

She's done a great job, where no one else has bothered to try. It's real easy to get on line and whine about what others like Cindy are doing. Makes me want to know what these whiners are doing.

[Fox Mulder]

26. I was gonna type something like that...

but I wasn't so sure how to type it.

Thanks.

[yurbud]

24. people are correctly mad at the large number of elected Dems

who do not stand up for the issues that got them into office.

No one expects them to win without the majority, but they at least need to get on the record as opposing the abusive, corrupt, and undemocratic initiatives of the GOP.

Their policy of voting with the GOP because their bills are going to pass anyway is worse than defeatist--it gives the GOP a stick to beat them with.

I recall when Scott McClellan was asked about some Dems questions for the administration on the DSM, he said, "Did they vote to give the president the authority to go to war?" and that was a semi-legit question.

Blind cheerleading doesn't fix anything--just look at the GOP.

[leeroysphitz]

99. You put your finger on it when it comes to criticizing dems...

I don't expect to find a candidate that is somehow guaranteed to vote the way I want on every issue and if I did there would probably be a lot off angry people in my district\ state but for pete's sake how can shaking a finger at DEMOCRATS that voted to give Bush his war, or for the bankruptcy bill (which I'm calling the GRINCH bill because it is going to steal X-mas this year...), or to rubber stamp a presidential nominee for Chief Justice who only has 3 (???) years experience as a judge be considered whining or disloyal to the party?

We aren't republicans and we shouldn't require loyalty oaths to attend the rally. Our diversity of opinion and thought can admittedly be a liability but is at the same time our strength, I think it depends on how we use it.

[Vektor]

27. Agreed, fully.

She's a brave woman, and doing the right thing. I support her for her sheer intestinal fortitude.

[spindoctor]

28. Oh yea, I will bitch at our "leadership", and what's more...

I will bitch even louder when they are in the White House and don't do their job right.

THAT, my friend, is the difference between a Democrat and a Republican. We do NOT blindly follow our "leaders". We like to think for ourselves.

Well...most of us anyway.

[Erika]

31. Yep

Bushbots would back W if he crucified you know who.

[WilliamPitt]

34. It'd be nice, tho,

to have them become our LEADERS before we bitch them into shame and defeat.

Just sayin'.

[spindoctor]

50. That will take some work

We are a diverse bunch. We care about more than gay marriages and abortions. We weigh the issues on our individual scales and set our own priorities.
That's freedom, that's democracy, that's us.

Come election time we will all dilute our principles and rally behind the next best thing. Until then, it will be interesting to see if "The One" will emerge before the primaries.

The DNC establishment is simply not showing enough leadership to stop the voice of dissent.

[WilliamPitt]

53. Oh no, work!

www.pdamerica.org

[WildEyedLiberal]

36. And do you thinking bitching is actually productive?

As far as I'm concerned, Dems could use MORE unity. Face it - not every little left-wing faction is going to get his way all the time. And so you'd just throw out people who are far more in agreement with your views, and in doing so, elect Republicans who have NOTHING in common with you? All because elected Democrats didn't agree 100% with you?

That's a foolish mindset, and I'm sorry, if I need to bitch, I'll bitch about the Republicans who are destroying our country. Why some need to bitch about the people who are trying to offer a solution and tear them down - and then BRAG about it - is beyond me.

[spindoctor]

41. Ain't too proud to bitch

And I'm also able to walk and chew gum at the same time. I can express my dissatisfaction with the administration and with the DNC all in one night.

Many of us do not want another election scenario where we are faced with the choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich, no matter how they label themselves.

[hippywife]

64. Come to Oklahoma and say that.

Come to a state where the Dems in office totally subverted the process by making sure that we didn't get to vote on our resolutions at the state convention because they were too chickenshit to stand on the platform that had been approved all the way through the process to that point.

When there are Dems at a national level that do nothing but equivocate when lives are on the line, you have a much worse scenario.

[prof_youngblood]

102. If we didn't have Cindy, who then? - Dean,Biden,Kerry, not really

I can only recall the efforts put forth by CONYERS/Boxer and Lieberman? - man I hope he's replaced by another Dem Senator in 06

[K8-EEE]

32. I've Felt That Way At Times BUT...

I've really learned to ignore the trolls and negative people, because they really ARE in the minority. Mostly what I get here is lots of good info, encouragement and laughs so I focus on that and ignore and I mean IGNORE the rest.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

39. Oh goodie.

Another "you're either with us or against us" cheerleader.

Where have I heard that before?

And who are you?

You think you can dictate who belongs on this site because you're friends with Cindy?

[az chela]

44. no cheerleader

I think that anyone who feels that way about Cindy should keep their opinions to themselves as she isnt doing this just for Casey ,she is doing it for all of us.How many others are willing to sacrifice their time and their family so that this war will end???If people are just using her then they should be ashamed.!!!
She gets more coverage than bush so thats a good thing,doesnt matter how she does it.
If you want her to step aside now that she has this country waking up from their deep sleep then you must not want freedom and democracy for any of us.
I disagree totally with that!!!

[cynatnite]

46. Bullshit!

I've got just as much right to voice my opinion as anyone else. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

[beam me up scottie]

51. Do you know where you are?

This is a PUBLIC INTERNET POLITICAL FORUM.

People are ALLOWED to speak their minds.

In fact, that's WHY they come here.

If you want to silence dissent and get rid of those with different opinions, you're on the wrong website.

[Kali]

55. keep your opinions to yourselves??!!!

I do not know the original post but obviously someone has been speculating that things Cindy Sheehan has said may not be good for the "whole movement" whatever that is. Fine, argue the merits of those positions (personally I am totally in awe of the woman) but don't tell people to keep thier opinions to themselves, to get off the ship if they don't agree with you/her - it sounds EXACTLY like the fascist crap from the other side. - from the last illegal war: America - Love it or Leave it. Of course they meant love it blindly.

You are either with us or with the enemy??????

[eggman67]

98. Irony

A forum of dissenters that wants no dissent.

[leeroysphitz]

101. keep their opinions to themselves

Ok Mr. Fleischer... Sorry but that's really what that statement sounded like.

[Joe Chi Minh]

84. "You think you can dictate

who belongs on this site because you're friends with Cindy?"

You betcha, punk! See my obliging post 83. You won't even be here. I'm beaming you up right now!

[beam me up scottie]

97. "punk" ???

Who are you pretending to be?

Dirty Harry was so 80's.

[leeroysphitz]

103. Although the last of the "Dirty Harry" series was made in the 80's

It's really more associated with the 70's... FYI
(and that's one to grow on.)

Spelling!

[beam me up scottie]

104. "on to grow on" ?

For some of us that lived through both, the latter is the one most commonly associated with the pop icon in question.

I had to put up with brothers, a couple of boyfriends and a husband that thought those movies were da bomb.

[leeroysphitz]

105. da bomb?

Lol. I've never been a fan of Gritty Urban Police type action movies of any decade. I'm just sayin is all...

[beam me up scottie]

110. I know, I'm really

mixing my decades.
:evilgrin:

[Joe Chi Minh]

120. James Cagney, the 30s.

Anyway, I've decided not to reconstitute you from your beam form, but keep you insuspended animation. So any noises emanating from you will be deemed not to have been uttered.

[FM Arouet666]

40. A very passionate post

I know exactly to which post you are referring, in fact I was going to respond. I was formulating an answer, affirming what the poster had stated.

Sheehan has allegedly made some very provocative statements, "insurgents as the true freedom fighters." I guess, it depends on your perspective, but that is not what I found troubling. Her comments make her an easy target for the conservative attack dogs. I was thinking that she would be a better symbol of the movement, a more effective weapon, a better democratic icon....

But wait, a symbol, a weapon, an icon. She is a human being, a mother who just lost her son in an immoral war based on lies. She is not an object. Democrats did not create Mrs Sheehan for the purpose of making a statement, defending a position, or spreading a message.

There are many voices in the democratic party and in the anti-war movement. A call to homogenize all these voices to form a single message will squelch individual expression, leading to a hoard of uncritical followers, towing the party line for the party's sake. Sounds like the GOP.

We must unite as democrats, but accept that we are all different, and have views which may be contrary to our own. In the end, I did not post to the thread which you referred to because I did not accept the premise, however, I also do not accept yours. We can still be united as democrats and take the party to task for things which we find troubling. Conservatives, apparently, cannot, and in the end, that is what will make us stronger.

Just a thought...... You are free to accuse me of being fecally impacted, but I, too, will be going to bed..... :hurts:

[KitchenWitch]

43. Thank you for this rant

I felt very sad when I saw that "Cindy" post...

Activism is activism...Period.

Cindy, for whatever it is worth, is out there DOING something.

[Dunvegan]

49. Amen...A "Noble" Cause...She still doesn't have an answer...

...from Bush himself to her for her question, "For what noble cause did Casey die?"

Until she has an answer, she has the moral right to press and press and press the question.

Speaking of "Noble"...Cindy Sheehan for the Nobel Peace Prize:

http://nobelprize.org/peace/

The Nobel Peace Prize

"The ways and means to achieve peace are as diverse as the individuals and organizations rewarded with the Nobel Peace Prize. Henry Dunant, founder of the Red Cross, shared the first prize in 1901 with Frédéric Passy, leading international pacifist of the time.

"Aside from humanitarian work and peace movements, the Prize has been awarded to a wide field of work including advocacy of human rights, mediation of international conflicts and arms control and disarmament."

(Edited to say: So, at what point should Martin Luther King have stepped down? Mandela? Et. al.?)

[az chela]

54. she deserves it!!!!

If ever anyone worked very hard at trying to attain peace ,it is Cindy
Sheehan.She spends most of her time on the road,writing and giving speeches and organizing rallies and doing talk shows instead of sitting at home and doing nothing.She has had her husband and part of her family and her friends turn again her.She has paid a great price to be a voice for the people who are against this war.
Cindy hasnt been home in months and is working very hard to turn this
government around.She gets 3 or 4 hours of sleep a night,usually staying at some supporters house and doesnt see her 3 kids very often and yet she keeps on.Does she get discouraged???YES,it is a hard life
she has chosen and she has had a lot of death threats.I doubt many of us could walk a mile in her shoes and for all her hard work she deserves to be nominated for the peace prize

[LibertyorDeath]

58. Well said !

the individual that was
questioning the usefulness of Cindy can fuck off & die already. IMO

[file83]

60. I agree with you 100%.

Cindy Sheehan is a great, GREAT human being fighting for peace. That's it. That's all. That's EVERYTHING. She challenged the President of the United States of America and HE BACKED DOWN this summer.

How many of you Cindy doubters can say that about yourselves? Cindy put Bush to SHAME in front of the World. They are talking about her all over the planet.

I love her spirit and she is the best thing to happen to the anti-war movement in a LONG FUCKING TIME. Appreciate what you have and grow from there. Don't throw it away when you get bored with it like a child would.

Grow up and support her by sticking with her through thick and thin you doubters. An ounce of loyalty won't hurt.

[Dunvegan]

61. This is courage in action...

[Alamom]

63. I don't want to sound dense........

I'm a middle-aged Mom and (God Forbid) from the South....BUT as a lifelong Democrat and American who wants to see change in this country before "WE THE PEOPLE" means nothing and personal Freedom is only a a beautiful memory.........So I will ask,

when Cindy Sheehan went to Crawford last month and then to DC this month, did she not start a movement that has been so long over due, it is shameful?

When was the last time hundreds of thousands of people gathered in DC, other cities large and small across this country and other countries on the same day, with a purpose and a message to the US Government?

There were other issues brought forth, however, it appears the main message here and all over the world was to get rid of this "PILE OF SHIT WHO GOVERN BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE TO CONTROL AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE IN AMERICA AND ABROAD".

If Cindy Sheehan has become the FACE of the beginning of change, can we not take it as such and hope others will step up and follow with a message so loud and clear "THEY" will have to hear and cringe that "WE THE PEOPLE" ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE. WE CAN'T...IT HAS GONE TO FAR.

If I am confused, please let me know. Cindy Sheehan has taken on the US Government in the only way she knows how.

The question is, What will the rest of us do to carry on & not let it die?

If I am confused, please tell me exactly what else can be done at this point.

I have the upmost admiration & respect for Cindy Sheehan and all women & men of the past who have demanded answers and accountabilty.

Our Founding Fathers saw into the future and provided an avenue to question a bad goverernment. It was and is a priority of upmost importance.

So important to the people of this nation to keep the government from becoming too powerful, it is the First Ammendment.

Freedom of Religion, Speech , and the Press;
Rights of Assembly and Petition.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of a religion, or prohibiting the free excercise thereof ; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;
or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

(My intent is not to insult the intelligence of the members here with this reminder. I read a report yesterday that stated, most High School students do not know or understand the First Ammendment. This was a report by educators, my sister being one for over 20 years)

This is a very sad fact.




edit: spelling

[yodermon]

65. Do not let them get to you.

There are agents provocateurs on this site.
Every progressive movement has always had them.

The challenge, of course, is to distinguish the honest disagreement from the purposeful provocation. Freepers have boasted about high post counts here, and provoking honest DUers into getting Tombstoned for subsequently calling them out (but w/o proof).

So the best solution? Be civil to each other. Don't engage in tit-for-tat flaming. If you feel uncontrollable rage, HIT THE ALERT BUTTON, and/or post a separate generalized thread explaining the frustration (as the OP has done, :toast: ) without naming names.

The very intent of the agent provocateur is to foment discord. While we cannot identify all the infiltrators, at least we can deny them the satisfaction of seeing DU degenerate into a divisive pit of left-wing angst.

Principles of non-confrontational, non-violent protest work in cyberspace as well as IRL.

[dave123williams]

66. You need help with reading comprehension....

The post that questioned if Cindy was helping or not summed up by suggesting that she's not merely helping; she's leading.

[dogday]

68. Both Parties are involved with corruption and

special interest. The lobbyist give money to both sides and they have their own agendas at heart not ours. Having said that, the only ones I see standing up are the Black Caucus. Give them a hand for having the stones to say what they feel.

I believe in order to really have the government we so desperately need, we will have to have a strong third party that believes in the system and holds each elected official accountable.

Not Left, Not Right but middle ground. The constitutional party of the people is what we need. A new third party and it can happen...

[txaslftist]

70. AMEN

[helderheid]

71. excellent and recommended

[Chi-Town Exile]

73. Thoughtful Posts

Just so you guys know, I'm a newbie and I've been treated like dirt here because I ask people to consider gray areas.

Guess I'm just an old Liberal, but the older I get I realize that balance is needed in just about every human endeavor I can think of. It seems to me with my experience on various message boards over the years that anonymity breeds nasty behavior because this type of communication allows people to talk to one another without the benefit of looking another person in the eyes.

It doesn't go unnoticed by me that extreme positions on either side of debate ultimately brings consensus, however, there are a lot of nasty people on this site that don't take too kindly to those that don't share the same opinion as they do.

I've been guilty of it myself since I got here mainly in response as a defense mechanism, but I must tell you I felt so unwelcome yesterday that I vowed not to return here but I can't stay away because I learn so much here and have learned a lot over the years I spent on DU as a lurker.

Just because a person has a lower post count (sounds like a fertility problem, doesn't it?)does not mean they are out of touch or downright stupid as many of the veterans on here suggest when someone that is new dares to challenge them.

In reality, there are quite a few people on here that act just like Free Republic types except they hold Liberal beliefs. I've been called a troll already because I haven't agreed with some people on here with respect to the Arab/Israeli conflict and my subsequent criticisms of ANSWER. They suggest that if you don't step in line with them you are a tool of the right.

That isn't right (pun intended), this is the "Democratic" Underground. It should have enough room for those that are Ultra-Liberal, Liberal, Moderate, etc.

Jeez, if we can't pull it all together, how are we going to fight that heavily armed, heavily funded noise machine from the RIGHT?

edited for spelling

[eggman67]

100. Amen! n/t

[Chi-Town Exile]

117. Thank You n/t

[RoyGBiv]

107. Just so you know ...

You are completely welcome.

As noted, I'm not replying to each individual post in this thread, but I have read them all, and I felt I should take the time to comment on yours directly.

I know how you feel, completely. I have a long memory, and the first heated debate in which I was involved, which started barely a week after I registered, still sits with me. I remember the names of everyone involved, but not for the reasons one might suspect.

I have tried very hard in my time here to find common ground with just about everyone I have encountered, everyone except those I have determined for myself are not worth anyone's time or attention. (And for the most part, those people aren't here anymore anyway. Draw your own conclusions.) That's not to say I've tried to bend to anyone's will, nor that I dilute my opinions for the sake of consensus, but I do seek to find some path we can all follow, and I try most ardently with those who seem to find my opinions most obnoxious.

No matter how harsh my words were that began this thread, I feel no particular malice toward the individuals I had in mind as I was writing, We're all supposed to be in this together. Deep down, somewhere, we all have the same kinds of basic goals in mind.

We'll fight amongst ourselves, and that's okay. Don't be discouraged. I'm not. I am inspired by much of what I see in this forum, including most of what I've seen in this and related threads, even when I didn't agree with it and despite occasional twists and turns that do in fact point to a potential organized effort to separate us. The fact that people care enough to argue is important. This fight, this broad struggle in which we have taken interest and which I shall not claim can be defined only by myself, is a collective effort and needs all of us. I hope you'll hang out with us.

[Chi-Town Exile]

118. Thank you for the kind words, I appreciate it. nt

[sinkingfeeling]

74. Excellent! Right on !

[bemildred]

75. Well said.

"Well, fuck that" indeed.

[goodhue]

76. Hear, hear!

[earth mom]

77. Excellent Rant! Thank You!

I too, am disgusted and pissed off at the people who slam Cindy just because her every view point isn't lock step with theirs! Give me a break! :eyes:

Cindy has done what thousands if not millions of people haven't been able to do in almost 5 very long years! Cindy had the guts to face the evil bastards head on and I support her completely as should ever other real dem who wants to see an end to the war and the removal of the BFEE!

Cindy has made Bush Inc and Congress nervous as hell and put em all on notice that the people aren't going to just sit there and take whatever Bush Inc and Congress dish out! Look how Cindy confronted Hillary and proved just how much Hillary (and no doubt many other assholes in Congress) wants this war! That should get every dem out there good and pissed off, but HELL NO! Some have to whine that Cindy doesn't have the right "message" now. Again, Give me a fucking break!

The truth is until we call every single one of these evil bastards-republican and dem alike-to the carpet we are NO WHERE. People will continue to die and this country will continue it's journey down the toilet.

:rant:

[BiggJawn]

78. Yeah, I don't understand that.

I mean, did I miss Cindy's declaration that she was now an Atheist or what?

She still speaks for me.

She looked so SERENE as they hauled her to the paddy wagon yesterday.

Civil Disobedience in Action, People....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

79. Gosh, didn't you see all those Dem "leaders" at the anti-war demo?

Neither did I.

[ginnyinWI]

80. I hear ya, RoyGBiv

I absolutely agree. I often wonder what is with Democrats who can't seem to resist pulling down every elected official or private person who attains or holds some degree of power. It is so easy to sit and judge, and so unfair.

Do they do it to grab some kind of feeling of power themselves, like the little guy who feels bigger because he assassinated a famous person? Is it envy, wanting to pull down someone who is more important than they are?

There are sincere people out there working for the public good. If we knock them all down, where will we go for good government and people willing to speak out? I would like the people who just like the red meat/entertainment aspect of this to start following something less consequential to our country, such as a reality-based TV series.

Luckily the voices heard here are not going mainstream. But they are destructive enough as it is, because they inject a level of cynicism into the debate which causes many to become hopeless and apathetic.
I'm not saying it is wrong to offer fair criticism--but it has to be based on well-reasoned analysis of facts, not pure emotion and an agenda of offering harsh judgements at the drop of a hat.

[Joe Chi Minh]

81. "I often wonder why I see more ridicule

of Democrats here than I do on the daily news".

A lot of neocon operatives work these threads, RoyGBiv, as I'm sure you've noticed, when you were less depressed; as well as "middle-of-the-roadkill", who want a "nice", exclusive middle-class Democratic party. Kind of like what you have already, only much more so.

[cry baby]

85. I'm with you.

The "Cindy isn't helping anymore" thing is infuriating!

I criticize the Dem leaders that need criticizing by name, not as a whole.

If we splinter then the repubs win again.

[RoyGBiv]

86. I suppose I should say something ...

I do not have the time or energy to respond to each individual comment in this thread, which I regret because some of those who disagree with me made cogent points, while others spouted inane drivel that begs to be ridiculed as such. In addition, many of those who offered kind words of support deserve to be acknowledged. So, for now, I'll just summarize some of my thoughts after a day of reflection in the real world and add that I appreciate the kind words from most of you who have responded to this thread.

My point is this. We live in a world with very few heroes. That's not new or unexpected. Heroes are by nature rare. But, when one comes along, we would do well to acknowledge it and not pick at the fine details without a dedicated examination of the whole picture. Are we free to pick at the details, i.e. free to question her individual actions? Sure, of course. We're also free to throw ourselves off a cliff. I will not question your right to shoot yourself in the metaphorical foot; I'll get a little pissy when you point the gun at me.

Cindy Sheehan is an icon; her image has become larger than she is as an individual, and the reason is that she managed to do something no one else has done, but that so many of us wanted done but could not or would not do ourselves. She made us feel legitimate, heard, powerful. Some of it was accidental, a product of luck. Much of it was carefully planned. These elements combined with the power of her strong, genuinely benevolent personality created a force that those opposed to her fundamental message are scrambling to negate.

The only way they will succeed is if we let them, that is if we accept the counter-image they are trying desperately to create. That new image in which they are trying to recast her is of a deeply flawed woman who says and does things that a lot of us find abhorrent or at least unworthy of one who has come to be seen as a hero. Ms. Sheehan has said a hundred or more things in the last week with which most of those who visit this forum for the reasons in keeping with its mission would fully agree. She has said one, maybe two things that some of us question. A heroic image is the sum of its parts. Focusing the lens on any one particular misses the point entirely, yet those who seek to cast Ms. Sheehan, and that for which she fights, as somehow less than worthy of the lofty praise with which she has been presented need those points and demand we aim our examination at those points, in particular the ones that cause us to question.

Divide and conquer is not just a trite phrase. It is a strategy as old as recorded history, and it works. Well.

I am not saying we should ignore any one thing, nor excuse that which is truly wrong by our own moral and ethical standards. I am saying that if you are willing to cast aside this person and her image and everything she has done for us and the cause we so firmly support because she said or did one thing that makes you squeamish, you may well not have the heart for this fight nor the energy to do the work necessary to pursue it.

I'll close with a somewhat off-the-subject commentary regarding a man who is a hero to some and a villain to others. I offer it not as a direct analogy, nor as a comparison to any individual today, but as an illustration.

Abraham Lincoln was a racist by any modern standard. He was by the time of his election a relatively wealthy lawyer who crafted a somewhat false image of himself as a poor "common man" for political gain. He was a divisive President whose mere presence in the White House, and what that represented, fueled the fires that brought this nation to its one and as yet only civil war. Hundreds of thousands died. Mr. Lincoln, at one point in his life, advocated deporting all people of African decent to colonies outside the United States as a solution to the so-called "negro question," and when war came he initially believed black men were not capable of fighting for their own freedom. He married a woman who was arguably insane and whose family owned slaves. He himself possibly lived in a home briefly with an enslaved servant near the beginning of his marriage. His economic policies were by his own words modeled after Henry Clay's American System, which some modern economic and social critics point to negatively as the progenitor of the corporate, near fascist state in which we live today.

A lot could be said to criticize Mr. Lincoln and cast him aside as "not helpful" to the cause of abolition, national unity, and economic prosperity for all. It's all in how you frame it, what elements of the larger picture you're willing to include when you make your judgment. At the end of the day, at the end of his life, and in enormous part due to his own personal efforts, slavery was abolished, the idea that the nation was created by and for the people as a whole had been solidified, the elements that would one day lead to legal equality for all people, no matter their ancestry, religion, or even gender, had been planted firmly in the ruling documents and institutions of the nation, and, that nation endured for us to fight about today.

No, Ms. Sheehan is not Abraham Lincoln. No one is. But she is a hero and an individual much like he was. She is flawed, as we all are flawed, but she stands for something in which I believe. I will not case her aside.

[Kukesa]

87. I hear ya, Rainbow Man. n/t

[ruggerson]

88. Sifting through your words

you still have not admitted your error in positing that my post implicitly or explicitly suggested Ms. Sheehan should be "cast aside."

I don't take kindly to having my words or my intentions distorted. Nor do I take kindly to someone making blanket accusations about the activist bona fides of another. Putting it quite bluntly, you have no clue what you're talking about.

I do respect people who own up to their errors and move on.

Your silence on this tells me all I need to know about character. Or lack thereof.

[RoyGBiv]

90. My words ...

This was not directed entirely at you. In fact, I even told you I wouldn't be "yelling" at you. A comment from someone else in and an entirely different thread is actually what sent me over. Your post inspired a lot of what came along, and I have seen other comments from others recently, so much it seems strangely organized even if it is not, that do in fact suggest she's worn out her welcome, as though we sitting here at our keyboards have final edit over the invitation list.

That said, I'll offer how I and many people interpreted the following comment from one of your posts:

"She's become more of a distraction and a side show and some of her over the top statements do not reflect well on the movement that is trying to end this bloody mess."

Words and phrases like "distraction" and "side show" are often used by those who seek to discredit an iconic leader of a movement and suggest that individual has outlived any usefullness to the cause. That is so close to suggesting that individual be "cast aside" as not to make much difference in the specific wording.

If that was not your intent, then fine, I apologize for misinterpreting your remarks. With that apology, I will ask that you choose your words more carefully and direct your criticisms more specifically so as not to open your intentions up to such a misunderstanding. I will not be blamed for a misinterpretation that so many others took the same way I did.

[ruggerson]

108. re: "My words..."

If that was not your intent, then fine

No, my intent was never to suggest that she be shunted aside. I thought I was quite clear in what I wrote: that I respected her contributions and honor her sacrifice and what she has been able to both draw attention to and accomplish.

I was looking at it from the point of view of political strategy. Remarks about Israel getting out of Palestine, and that we should not have attacked Afghanistan, whether in or out of context (and I have read the full context and still have questions), merely serve to distract. And when the media focuses on ONE PERSON as representative of an entire movement (and we both know how stupidly facile the media is), then the fate and fortune of a very important movement stands to suffer if the reputation of that one individual suffers. My point, strategically, was that we should look for ways to broaden this, in the media's eyes. Cindy lit a spark, a spark that resonated with millions, and now, perhaps, it is time for the resulting fire to be supported by all of us, with many folks being ambassadors in the eyes of the media.

Someone who attended the rally outside the WH wrote that the media, instead of focusing on the message of the crowd of 2000 that were demonstrating, focused entirely on Cindy getting arrested. Thus giving short shrift to the entire event. *That* is what I"m referring to. How to get around the media and make them cover this as a broad movement and not marginalize us.

I apologize for misinterpreting your remarks

No problem, apology accepted. And I will certainly try to be clearer and use my words carefully in my strategic mullings. But I think it behooves all of us to remember that we are on the same team. Cindy is one member and her contributions will be remembered for years. But most of us, I daresay, hated this regime and this war long before Cindy Sheehan became a household name. Let's honor her struggle and our struggle by trying to be constructive and trying to understand each other. You're my brother, not my enemy. The enemy is the man in the WH who is wreaking such horrible havoc in our beloved country.

[RoyGBiv]

109. On the same team ...

Well said, and fair enough. As mentioned elsewhere, I do not seek animosity, nor to impose my beliefs on anyone. We disagree on details, and I think that can be managed.

I'll accept your interpretation of your own remarks and leave it at that. I hope there are no hard feelings.

[RoyGBiv]

89. Bashing Dems -- One other thing ...

Some of you have focused almost exclusively on my comments about the bashing of Democrats I see here. Most of the more insightful criticisms of my comments revolve around this. As indicated, I was ranting, and in so doing, I did not thoroughly review my own remarks before posting, and I left a bit of what I was trying to say unclear. So, let me explain.

I am continually struck by a tendency many of us have to "eat our own." As I did say, many Democrats are deserving of criticism. I have no problem with such criticism when it is warranted, and the measure of that is largely in the eye of the critic. No, I do not want us blindly following our leaders, in particular our political leaders. As someone astutely observed, a great deal of what separates us from Republicans is that we refuse to do that. This is, in fact, part of why I am a Democrat.

But, let me briefly tell you what I and many others see, those others being friends of a similar ideological persuasion whom I've introduced to this forum at one time or another. At times, not a lot of perspective is to be seen among some (emphasis on some) critics. I am not the only one who has commented on this, and it is not something any of those who have so commented have seen only recently, but a recent example is appropriate.

A few weeks ago some individual I don't remember posted a mini-rant about the lack of courage among our Democratic leaders in criticizing the administration for horrendous management of the tragedy along the Gulf Coast. On that same day, before I even started reading the forum for the evening, I checked my e-mail and read through no less than two dozen official press releases from various Democratic leaders harshly criticizing the administration generally and Bush specifically. On that same day, as is usual, many threads existed decrying the mainstream media and its treatment of those who dare question the administration, pointing out, quite correctly, that dissenting opinion has remarkable trouble being broadcast anywhere but in private circles, like e-mail recipient lists for those who voice their dissent.

Does anyone not truly see the disconnect here? Dems are cowards, but the MSM won't let their voices be heard, so when they do speak out, no one knows, and so Dems are cowards. It gives me mental whiplash.

Sure, some Dems are cowards and idiots and no better than their Republican counterparts. Being from Oklahoma and having suffered under the rule of so many of these imbeciles, I know that as well as anyone. To directly answer a question asked of me above, no, I had no difficulties with Ms. Sheehan taking Hillary to task. Nor do I have difficulty with anyone taking any Democratic leader to task for blatantly refusing to serve our interests. But, criticizing those individuals or the DLC or whatever is your target of ire is entirely different from a blanket condemnation of the entire organization and is quite frankly ludicrous when directed at those who *do* what they are asked to do but can't manage to get their message across to a so-called mainstream audience because they are locked in basements or deleted from editorial lists.

All I'm asking is a little consistency and a little understanding that some of our leaders are in fact trying very hard, and they need to be acknowledged, not implicitly lumped with those who are perfectly willing to sell us to the devil.

[beam me up scottie]

93. I agree.

I understand completely what you're saying.
I grew up in a state where you could trust your representatives.

I now live in a red state with what seems like the most corrupt government run by the worst criminals I have ever seen. (well, except for Texas maybe)

Anybody heard of Mitch McConnell?
Jim Bunning ring a bell?
How about the honourable Governor Fletcher?
These guys are crooks. And everybody knows it.
And they get reelected.
And the cycle continues.
I am in a constant state of shock when I hear the local news.
How can people not care?

But it makes me respect the hard working honest Dems and Independents even more.

No, they're not perfect.

But they also don't deserve to be lumped in with the slackers and burned at the stake because we're feeling a little fickle today.

Excellent post-rant.
Much better than your first!

[Cleita]

91. There are people who like to stir the pot who post here.

Attacking one of our icons usually does it. Most of us liberal lefties are very supportive of Cindy. The character trashers really don't matter and it will probably be a matter of time before they cross the line and are tombstoned.

I have been posting here for years since 9-11 and I have seen these closet trolls tombstoned one by one eventually.

[stepnw1f]

106. I'm with You

message to Freepers: Constructive Criticism for Our Side is Appropriate, but "blanket statements" about Dems reveals much more than distaste or ignorance. Thanks for playing!

[tlsmith1963]

111. I Don't Bash Cindy

I appreciate her efforts very much, & I want her to remain the focus. She comes across as real, someone people can relate to. It's important for our side to have people like her speaking for us. So I cannot understand why people are attacking her.

Tammy

[nvliberal]

112. A lot of the Democratic Party haters are Greens.

They have an ulterior motive in trashing an established political party which represents the average person rather than the rich.

Unfortunately for them, this is a two-party government, and a stable country needs a two-party system, not a one-party system or a fractured system of a bunch of little fringe political parties.

The Republicans, of course, want a one-party system, and they are all too willing to see these "progressives" trash the Democratic Party and split it up.

I hear Greenie talking points on Mike Malloy's show, on Bernie Ward's show, I see them on this board, and on the so-called liberal blogs which trash moderate Democrats and the (despised) DLC.

People who spew this nonsense aren't helping the liberal cause at all.

[d_b]

113. Register Green. Vote strategically.

Same difference with half the guilt.

[Seansky]

114. I had a similar reaction, still, idea is everyone expresses what

they think and democratic environment should allow it, shouldn't it?

[MADem]

115. Why I think Cindy is cool

She lost a child in a wrong war, and wants the monkey to explain to her WHAT NOBLE CAUSE? he died for.

That's it--that is why I like her and support her.

I could care less about any other opinion she may or may not have, the thing that resonates with me is the simple fact that she insists, in simple language, that the nitwit explain himself. She's got moxie, guts, and the grit to persevere, too, and that is also endearing.

[mvd]

116. Yes, I do my share of bashing, but I try not to..

be inflammatory, as I know there are fans of many Democrats on these forums. Cindy deserves our continued support. I don't see what she did with Hillary or even what Russ Feingold did as betrayals.

[Peace Patriot]

119. I agree with you about Cindy, but, you know, I think it's just trolls.

This is a fairly open forum. Anyone may join and comment. That's okay with me. Trolls sometimes provide a foil against which interesting discussions develop.

On criticizing Democratic Party leaders, however, I disagree. The party leadership has betrayed the majority of Americans--who looked to it to save the country and our democracy from the Bush Cartel--in such a fundamental way that it is difficult to get your mind around it.

The Democratic Party leadership PERMITTED two far rightwing Bushite corporations--Diebold and ES&S--to gain control of the tabulation of our votes with SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, during the 2001 to 2004 period. The venal corruption connected to the $4 billion electronic voting boondoggle, and war profiteering corruption, are largely responsible for this betrayal. The Democratic leaders' failure to prevent this outrageous theft of our most fundamental right-- our right to vote--their failure to warn voters or to object to it in any way, and their SILENT COMPLICITY in the non-election that occurred in 2004 (completely non-transparent and unverifiable election) has done severe damage to our country and to our democracy--because it took away any hope for change, and condemned us to continued massive theft, massive slaughter in illegal wars, egregious unlawfulness in our government, and loss of our civil rights, with no recourse, no one to appeal to, and no way to stop it.

The Democratic Party leadership's complicity in the war, and complicity in election theft, NEED TO BE exposed and condemned--and changed.

We need a BIG BROOM. And the Republicans are not the only ones who need their house cleaned.

If we don't recognize this and do something about--if we just let the Democratic Party elite PROFIT FROM Bush's loss of support, to install more War Democrats and Elitist Democrats and Global Corporate Predator Democrats--then we have gained NOTHING, and the war will go on and expand, and--my prediction--we will see a military Draft (which Bush cannot do). We'll see consolidation of all the enormous gains of the super-rich. We will not see any significant change.

Because neither Democrats nor Republicans are any longer beholden to the people. They are beholden to two far rightwing companies, who have decided and will continue to decide who our candidates are, and who wins.

This is not "Democrat-bashing." This is reality, and the truth. And if we don't face it, and do something about it, our democracy is over.