That's it. No more demonstrating for me.

[Ignoramus]

There are democrats in ANSWER and United for Peace and Justice. These democrat thugs support the patriot act, torture and preventive war, they talk nicely about pinko commie fag cuba and support socialists and they oppose abortion and they support the terrorists in Iraq. They hate the America.

What we need is a focus to convey a clear non-offensive message to the majority of the people. Only attractive people should be on stage, because attractive people sell. They should be white so we can appeal to the most people. I have an idea for some uniforms that attendees can wear, and a marching formation. We can distribute candles and flags for the marchers to carry. I have an idea for a song about how tomorrow belongs to us.

Also, we have to make sure the message doesn't include any of those unimportant issues like racism and stuff. It's best not to directly attack Bush or the war. Let's have a pro-bush pro-war organized march in uniform, that's for moms and saying "yay republicans! liberate iraq! bring the troops home, enlist now!".

Oh, and until then. Make sure you don't go to any demonstrations.

[MostlyLurks]

1. I predict a shitstorm of flame posts from the "Sarcasmly Challenged".

[Snotcicles]

62. Are you two the same person allmost the same number of posts

[Ignoramus]

70. Last time I checked

No. You can check the profiles to see that we're probably different people.

[derby378]

2. We don't need any "bait-and-switch" demonstrations...

An anti-war rally should focus on anti-war issues instead of exploding all over the left-wing political spectrum to the point where you have "Bad Pink Floyd Karaoke Night" performed by some Filipinos protesting something that has no tangible link to what's going on in Iraq at this moment.

[DistressedAmerican]

5. Were You There? If You Were, You Would Realize That This Was Not

a bait and switch situation. I recommend that you go to the next event and see it for yourself rather than getting the distorted view from TV.

The problem was with C-SPAN not the event.

[donco6]

25. Oh, now really.

How many posts have I read from people who WERE at the event and described it as exactly that - a bait and switch? I know I've read at least a dozen.

[Atman]

28. I've read many, many dozen. And got it first-hand from a marcher.

I'm actually surprised to keep seeing so many "stop bashing ANSWER!" posts. There were literally hundreds, if not thousands of them, since Saturday. This isn't a secret. People just need to be made aware.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. But awaremenss is dangerous

comrade....

:-)

As this awaremenss may let people make a more informed decision... comrade

:-)

[donco6]

41. *snicker*

yes, . . . comrade.

Jeez. :)

[DistressedAmerican]

46. I Do Not Know How Many You Have Read. Try These Numerous

posts from people that were there and completely disagree with your assessment. If anything the media distorted the event.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4910414

I think you are way off base here. It is quite clear from this thread that the majority of folks who attended totally disagree with your armchair assessment.

How about links for for the however many posts you claim to have read. I have seen exactly one myself.

[moddemny]

54. The people that disagree with the .......

assessment of the anti-answer folks may be well meaning, but they are unaware of the demographic of people that ANSWER alienates. And by demographic I am not talking about middle america, or white people or attractive people or whatever gibberish is in the original post. I outlined some of the demogprahic in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4895425

[donco6]

57. There's like, a jillion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4905558&mesg_id=4905558

But rather than beat this dead horse, let's just agree to disagree, OK? You liked it; I didn't. You don't think ANSWER's involvement matters; I do. I can't see you moving, and I'm not either. What's the point?

[derby378]

49. I agree that it was partially C-SPAN's fault...

The UFPJ rally didn't make it on-camera, while ANSWER's did. And I appreciate you showing up for those of us who couldn't. You are a trooper.

But my main bone of contention with ANSWER remains. If they want to juggle various socio-political issues, they have the right to do so. But when it comes time to focus on one particular issue, they need learn to push everything else aside for just a little while and focus, focus, focus.

[AlphaCat]

53. And, in any case...

...the one who pays the piper calls the tune. We need our OWN march! YAY!

[Just Me]

3. Whew!

Thank goodness I've still retained some sense of my own humor! I'd prolly be reeling, otherwise.

[NervousRex]

4. ......

:boring:

[Atman]

6. Sarcasm can be funny

...when you know what you're talking about. This is just plain misguided. ANSWER is a pox on not only our party, but on America. Yuk it up if you want. But you're simply mistaken if you think ANSWER is anything but an anti-American hate group using us to advance their own agenda, NOT ours.

In fact, many of your comments aren't even sarcastic. They're facts. They DO hate American, they DO support I socialists and Iraq over American interests. Do some research, man.

And be sure to keep the RALLY and the MARCH straight...two different events. The MARCH was awesome and successful. The RALLY was an ANSWER-only agenda and made us all look like kooks.

Bad post.

[Ignoramus]

8. What does it mean to

"hate america"?

[Atman]

12. That is why you need to do your research

Those aren't empty words.

Much of their agenda is blaming America for every ill in the world. You can call it something else if you want, but that's probably what your Congressman's opponent will call it if he shows up an any rally run by ANSWER. And believe me, they're waiting for exactly that. There is a good reason why no prominent democrats showed up to speak at ANSWER's rally.

[Ignoramus]

18. You mean they're blame america firsters?

Dang. They're probably some of them hollywood liberals who hate our freedom.

So, why do they think the continent of america is to blame for every ill in the world? Is it the effect of accumulated micro-climates?

[Atman]

22. No, they're Stalinists, actually.

Again, do some research. If you want to align yourself with a Stalinist agenda, you do it. But don't come waving an ANSWER banner at the first big DU-Sponsored rally!

[Ignoramus]

24. I bet my friend in ANSWER didn't even know

that by passing out a flier they had been magically transformed into "a stalinist". Sounds scarey.

I'm kind of stuck though. I can't think of any way to go to a demonstration that won't magically transform me into "a stalinist" or "a republican supporter". I mean the democrats support war and oppose war and support and oppose abortion and free-trade and fair trade. How do I avoid aligning myself?

[Atman]

26. GOD, this isn't so hard to understand!

DO you think everyone in the republican party is behind Bush's agenda of world domination and breaking the backs of Middle America?

How can I make it any more clear? You may not be a Stalinist. Your friend likely isn't. ANSWER's trouble is, they can't get many people to join and offer the type of rabid support some people seem to be giving them, if they are up front about their deeper agenda.

So they soften it. Soft-peddle it to get ACCESS and perceived credibilty. This isn't rocket science...they're in the "gaining a toehold" phase now. As long as you help them via your support, you're helping them towards that goal.

It doesn't work to say, "well, I'm not a Stalinist, so it's okay if I march with them." That's NUTS!

[Ignoramus]

33. So, if any democrats organize an demonstration against the war

I should not attend because they are trying to soft-peddle their support for corporate globalization, and are in fact supporters of military aggression?

[Atman]

38. Okay, if your just going to be ridiculous, what's the point?

How does ANSWER get equated with "any democrats?" You're reaching.

[derby378]

45. "Stalinists?" No. More like Trotskyists...

...although in past ANSWER marches I have seen some banners and marchers from people like the Marxist-Leninist Party of America. Those guys actually supported the Albanian model of Communism, which was pretty scary. I'm sure Enver Hoxha appreciated having some American allies, but still...

[tatertop]

9. But you can't stop marching because of them

They will always be there.
More of us need to march, not less.
If we have allowed them to bogart the agenda, that is
our fault, not theirs.

[Atman]

16. Oh, absolutely

We need to continue demonstrating, with bigger, better marches, bigger and better sponsorship, bigger and better speakers. And we WILL do it. We simply cannot allow ANSWER to have any formal role or connection with anything we ever do again.

Mark my words...ANSWER's agenda will come back to haunt us come election time if our candidates are seen within a hundred yards of them.

[tatertop]

21. They seem good at organizing

We need someone to lead (I can't do it all myself ;)
I would gladly march behind Kennedy, or Byrd,
or Gore, or Kucinich, or Moore or a bunch of others.
Until they start leading the marches, someone has to.

[Atman]

23. Hitler was good at keeping the trains running on time.

Who gives a shit if they're good at organizing? There's 70,000 DUers here, from all walks, all abilities, all talents.

And for the record, ANSWER did not organize that march. They glommed onto it and co-opted it for their own agenda.

[Scurrilous]

32. LOL

Calling ANSWER Stalinist and evoking Hitler.

In the same thread.

Hilarious stuff. :thumbsup:

[bemildred]

36. I'll bet they crush small furry puppies for fun too.

And, they're contagious, I gather, you could be a Stalinist
too almost before you know it, or Trotskyite, or whatever it
is, completely mentally ruined for life, contaminated with
unacceptable thoughts.

[Atman]

37. Thanks!

It's pretty rare one gets the chance to do both!

But OP did use "ANSWER is good at organizing" as his defense of ANSWER's politics. The old "Hitler made the trains run on time" has never been more apropos. Or are you one of those people who thinks the word Hitler should never be uttered? Just curious, because there was nothing untrue about either of the comments.

:thumbsup:

[Just Me]

10. They hate America's foreign policy, as do I, not Americans or America.

Why do you insist upon the stoning of the whole of ANSWER? There are many fantastic constituent organizations that are a part of ANSWER.

[tatertop]

14. Good point, good question

ANSWER, for all its faults, is not the KKK.

[Atman]

17. Then they should break their affiliation

ANSWER is a poison that will cost them politically.

[jonnyblitz]

15. sarcasm isnt funny when it hit's a nerve. nt

i think it is right on!!

[moddemny]

55. ANSWER makes protesters....

look like a scene out of TEAM AMERICA (Movie)

[tatertop]

7. excellent sarcasm

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. pass the popcorn

this shuold be fun....

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[Melodybe]

13. Here's how I feel about it and I was in DC this weekend

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4914382

[Atman]

19. But I haven't heard anybody saying we should stop protesting!

The only people saying that are the ones who post these crazy "don't bash ANSWER" threads. Demonstrations are absolutely vital. But not ones sponsored by radical organizations like ANSWER. They must be marginalized.

[Melodybe]

20. Exactly, but there are a few floating around and I wanted to do my part to

squash them.

[jonnyblitz]

35. then start marginalizing. start your all out war on ANSWER

in the meantime the rest of us have serious stuff to do with our time.

[Ignoramus]

40. How about this

You apparently don't condemn people who associate with ANSWER, it's just their politics that you disagree with and you worry about the media image.

At demonstrations I see a few people who support the demonstration but oppose ANSWER.

Why don't you do something similar. Attend the demonstration and form a "we're anti-occupation and anti-answer" platform. I know ANSWER will not like it, and may even hassle you. But, you can still attend in some form and probably gain some support as long as you make the message clear.

The important thing, in my opinion, is that you not encourage people to avoid going to demonstrations, even if they are run by ANSWER. ANSWER can't control the overall message of the demonstration, even if they want to.

In other words, hijack the demonstration back.

[Atman]

48. Even in this thread, I have CONSISTENTLY said DEMONSTRATE

Period. End of discussion.

That is all I've called for. Demonstrations. Big ones. Loud ones.

But we DON'T NEED ANSWER. Their cause hurts our cause.

And now, with my post below, I'm done with this, as we're just repeating stuff said and flung a thousand times over the past two days.

Here is an interesting DU thread wherein it's all been beaten to death, and many links included. Something for everybody. Including answers!

Buh bye.

ANSWER is a PRO HUMAN RIGHTS organization!

[bemildred]

27. Wikipedia on ANSWER:

A.N.S.W.E.R. (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism)—also known as International ANSWER and ANSWER Coalition and sometimes written as "ANSWER"—is a protest organization established by the International Action Center, which was founded by former United States attorney general Ramsey Clark and has taken a leading role in the post-9/11 antiwar movement. The organization characterizes itself as anti-imperialist, and its steering committee consists of socialists, civil rights lawyers, and progressive organizations from the Muslim, Arab, Palestinian, Filipino, Haitian, and Latin American communities.

It has organized many of the largest anti-war demonstrations in the United States since the September 11, 2001 attacks, and has also organized activities around a variety of issues, ranging from Palestine, to immigrant rights, to Social Security, and the extradition of Luis Posada Carriles. Though its national headquarters are in Washington, D.C., where it organizes its national antiwar demonstrations, the coalition's influence is seen as being strongest in San Francisco, and increasingly, in Los Angeles.

A.N.S.W.E.R. was one of the first organizations formed to protest the policies of the Bush administration in the wake of the September 11 attacks. Their first major action was a September 29, 2001 "Anti-War, Anti-Racist" political rally and march in Washington, D.C., primarily in protest of the then impending U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. An estimated 8,000 people participated; other rallies organized by ANSWER in protest of both that conflict and the 2003 invasion of Iraq have been even larger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSWER

Doesn't say much about Stalin, but anyway I think there were
some Trotskyites involved in the old days, and they probably would
have gotten pretty worked up about being called "Stalinist".

[Atman]

29. wikipedia can be changed/written by anyone.

Search DU threads...it may take some time, but you'll find 'em. That wikipedia entry is the kindest description of them I've seen so far.

[bemildred]

30. No shit, just like the rest of the web? Who knew? nt

[Atman]

34. No, actually

Go on...try to change any of the posts in this thread that aren't your own. I'll wait.

;-)

[bemildred]

39. So now "changed/written" is just "changed"?

I would think being editable was a strong point
of Wikipedia, that's the way Demopedia works to,
but I suppose opinions will vary on that.

[Atman]

42. Some info NOT from wikipedia

http://www.authoritarianopportunistswhocozyuptogenocidaldictators-forpeace.org/

http://www.infoshop.org/texts/wwp.html

International A.N.S.W.E.R. is not the answer. That is the conclusion which has been reached by the majority of the American anti-war movement after two years of ANSWER's efforts to "lead" the American anti-war and peace movements. ANSWER bills itself as a coalition, but it is nothing of the sort. ANSWER is a front group organized by Stalinists associated with the Workers World Party. ANSWER has led the anti-war movement around in circles for two years, continuing its practice of organizing safe protests which promote the organization, but do nothing to slow down the war or even bring us one day closer to abolishing the U.S. war machine. What's more, scarce movement resources have been diverted into ANSWER's organization, which has only helped promote the authoritarian politics of the WWP. ANSWER has squandered movement resources on symbolic protests in Washington and San Francisco which every seasoned activist can tell you are a waste of time. ANSWER isn't interested in ending any war--they want to be in control of any new social change movements that grow in the United States.

The International Action Center is a prominent Left organization located in New York City which is known for organizing large Left protests. What most people don't know is that an authoritarian Left organization stands behind the IAC, an organization known as the Workers World Party. Both organizations have been criticized by Left activists for supporting unsavory leaders such as Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevic. They support these unsavory rulers because they subscribe to a shallow version of anti-imperialism. Quite simply, they will support any regime, no matter how vile they really are, if that regime is opposed to U.S. imperialism and aggression.

The WWP is an authoritarian organization. Decisions about when and demos are going to be held are made by a small group of leaders. The WWP expects endorsing groups to participate under the banner of one of its front organizations, frequently the International Action Center and currently through the International A.N.S.W.E.R. coalition. This goes clearly against the non-hierarchical and democratic organizing models that have characterized the anti-globalization and anti-capitalist movements. There is no spokescouncil in the IAC.

The IAC is also known for the timidity of its protests, which are typically permitted, symbolic affairs that involve endless hours of speakers and a permitted march. The IAC actively discourages all forms of direct action, including civil disobedience. The IAC actively participates and cooperates with the police at all stages of protest organizing. One of their frequent tactics is to take out permits for all the public spaces that other protest groups might be using for a large mass action. They then play "permit broker" in order to gain influence among other protestors.

[bemildred]

43. More unreliable web stuff, huh? nt

[bemildred]

47. FWIW I find these Trotskyites and their annoying little power struggles

stupid, but I fail to see why I should give a shit, and
no I'm not a Commie or an Anarchist, I'm an anti-totalitarian
democrat in the Orwellian vein. All this guilt by association
is ridiculous.

[Atman]

50. I just don't get you

"I'm an anti-totalitarian democrat in the Orwellian vein. All this guilt by association is ridiculous."

So, flame me in defense of a totalitarian organization, then call it "guilt by association." It ain't guilt "by association." IT'S GUILT!

Again, lots of DUers are moving forward with plans for our own sponsored rallies. Whether or not we can pull it off remains to be seen. But I promise you, if DU members sponsor an anti-war rally, our permits and our air time will be used to protest the war, not to FREE MUMIA!

You can scoff from the sidelines, or you can help us make changes. The very level of controversy ANSWER generates on DU alone should be a hint to you that maybe they aren't the broad coalition builders they claim to be. They're users.

[bemildred]

52. I was around 40 years ago.

I consider this ANSWER stuff all a red-herring. The anti-war
movement is the hundreds of thousands of people that showed up,
and those who support them, not ANSWER.

There were similar attempts to focus on the various anti-war groups
with "special" agendas back in the old days too (we had commie contol
freaks and all sorts of "radical" wannabes, back then too, some of
them violent), it's the old "divide-and-rule" tactic, and the best
thing to do IMHO is ignore it. Bush doesn't seem to feel he has to
divorce himself from Jerry Fallwell and his ilk, eh?

I am sure that if the various other members of the anti-war movement
are unhappy with ANSWER, they will go around them and that's fine
with me, but I will support them either way.

[Atman]

58. "I will support them either way."

Sounds like you simply don't care to learn about things which may be outside the realm of stuff you already know or think you know. I've provided links, and here are some more. If you want to laugh it off as being "just another web post," so be it. But you've been given the facts. Consider them or discard them as you see fit.

But you might also want to consider how you'll feel when you find out we're right, and that despite all the warnings, you refused to even question ANSWER's motivations. "I will support them either way" sounds eerily cultist, IMHO.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4905558&mesg_id=4905558

[bemildred]

59. You don't feel I should support the anti-war movement? nt

[Atman]

64. I feel you should read what I post, and not make stuff up

I NEVER said ANYONE should not support "the anti-war movement." If you can find one post in which I've done this, I'll stop posting on DU forever.

"crushing fluffy puppies?"

:eyes:

You're reading what you want into this, and not reading what is actually being posted.

EVERY ONE OF US SHOULD BE ON THE STREET EVERY DAY PROTESTING THIS GODDAMN WAR. I cannot say it any more clearly, and I've stated it repeatedly.

ANSWER.

ANSWER.

focus now....

ANSWER.

They are NOT an "anti-war" or even a humanitarian organization, and they set back our cause by keeping real democratic Congressmen from attending our rallies and lending legitimacy to our cause.

ANSWER. Don't support ANSWER. They have they're own agenda, and it is not "anti-war."

How many more times/ways do I have to say it for you?

Sorry for being snarky, but you just don't appear to be absorbing what is being said. And I KNOW you didn't read the ToqueDeville post in that short a period of time. So you blew off the research in order to do some more self-serving bashing. I'm very sorry. I've done what I can.

[bemildred]

66. But, I don't support ANSWER:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4914331&mesg_id=4915427

[Atman]

67. This is YOUR quote...

"I am sure that if the various other members of the anti-war movement
are unhappy with ANSWER, they will go around them and that's fine
with me, but I will support them either way."

[bemildred]

68. Right, the anti-war movement, did you think I meant ANSWER? nt

[goodhue]

44. I like it

Thanks for this

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. Don't forget the Loyalty Oaths and vows not to offend anyone.

We sure wouldn't want to upset the rightwingers and those who tremble at the thought of being called "too liberal".

[LoZoccolo]

56. One strawman deserves another.

Oh we should all support dictators and be complete communists and anti-Semitic Nazis at the same time!

_{NOTE: This post is sarcastic.}

[LittleClarkie]

60. Pardon me if I still show up at the Sunday peace march outside the library

smack dab in the middle of Sensenbrenner's district, in the heart of freeperville.

Who needs ANSWER. Who needs UPJ. Who needs someone to lead us out of this mess. We'll do it ourselves, thank you very much.

[bemildred]

61. Bravo, well said. nt

[Atman]

65. EXACTLY! We don't need ANSWER.

No one does, except ANSWER. In fact, ANSWER needs far more than we need them. That is why the co-opted our peace march for their own agenda.

[Ignoramus]

71. Hijack it back then?

So, I agree with: "we don't need ANSWER". And, I agree with "demonstrate". If you are saying that you will attend demonstrations, even if they are organized/hijacked by ANSWER, then I agree with your general points.

A demonstration isn't a press-conference. I'm willing to attend a public event together with other activists who are associated with organizations with appalling and even murderous policies, e.g. the democratic party or the workers world party or probably the socialism and liberation party. The activists aren't the policy, nor is the demonstration.

If other anti-occupation demonstrations are organized by other groups, those will be good to attend also.

[True American]

63. Everyone should get involved with this story!!!!

Have you read the Sibel Edmond's story. I never know about this story until today. I urge everyone to read this story about the Bush Cover up. The Aurthur is Real Time.

Post a reply to Real Time in order to keep this story front and centered.

The Truth will prevail.

True American.

[dogday]

69. Don't forget the catchy slogan, that always

helps and a theme song. Matching outfits, maybe some acrobats... I like them, I would come out to see them....