Florida has gone too far.

[Lilyhoney]

Let me know when they make a law that lets you kill your neighbor because you thought they might want to covet your goods.

snip>
On Saturday it will become legal to use force on an attacker without first trying to escape the confrontation.

Supporters say the measure, which they dub the "Stand Your Ground" law, allows residents to protect themselves by meeting force with force.

Opponents, who call it the "Shoot First Law," warn it could hand itchy trigger fingers a license to kill.

"It's a particular risk faced by travelers coming to Florida for a vacation because they have no idea it's going to be the law of the land," said Peter Hamm, communications director of the Washington, D.C.-based Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "If they get into a road rage argument, the other person may feel he has the right to use deadly force."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/legislature/sfl-fforce25sep26,0,6655063.story?track=mostemailedlink

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. If I stop posting for two weeks straight, it's because my right-wing nut,

crony-corrupt, motorcycle midlifer neighbor shot me.

[moondust]

20. You'd better "take care of him"

before he takes care of you. He was nosing around your garage the other day, wasn't he?

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. I won't bite.

He amuses me when I catch him allowing his dog to pee in the back corner of my lot. And his wife is a laugh a minute. The woman has been working on an adverse possession against the golf course property behind our yard, and just to be a snot, she dropped some weeds directly behind my lot in the wooded area. She's so dumb she probably did it to stop me from claiming any adverse possession rights against the golf course, if she succeeds in her efforts.

No. I wouldn't harm my neighbor. I'd much rather, someday, write about the dysfunctional joys of suburbia.

[tom_paine]

47. Sounds like a case for a "preventative strike"

by the Bushevik Code, you are permitted to use up to and including a battfield nuke on him.

[OrlandoGator]

2. It's a good law.

I should not have to wager my life on the sanity of my attacker.

[hwmnbn]

6. Yeah, it's better to kill him first......

then ask questions later. That's what he's thinking too.

[chalky]

35. Yeah, 'cause that whole "pre-emptive strike" thing has worked SO WELL

for us on a national level. :sarcasm:

[Lorien]

66. Yep. I'm from Orlando and I'm moving the hell out.

Hurricanes, micro-dick nut jobs with road rage who feel like cowboys shooting it up with impunity, bigots galore, undereducated people damn near everywhere-I've had it! I'm moving to a civilized Blue State.

[OneAngryDemocrat]

7. Hmmm?

Should you wager your neighbor's life on whether you simply BELIEVE he's armed and dangerous?

[OneAngryDemocrat]

9. Hmmm? Pt II

Or simply SAY you thought he was armed and dangerous? This law permits MURDER.

[MadHound]

11. No, it is vigilantism dressed up as self defense

Sorry friend, but this is one of those laws that just screams of abuse. Two people get into a screaming match, and one of them decides to end it with a gun. Nobody witnesses this, and the perp can claim "Stand Your Ground" Utter BS.

This is the Wild West style of law enforcement, cruel, quick and barbaric. One would have hoped that we had progressed beyond such madness in the past hundred years. Sadly, it appears we haven't.

[damntexdem]

16. I had heard when this law passed. I decided then to avoid Florida.

I will continue to do so as long as this uncivilized statute remains on the books. I certainly don't wish to wager my life on the sanity of any Floridan who supports this law.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

64. as a Floridian i say this to you

you should have decided to avoid Florida long before this law.

;)

[Qibing Zero]

21. You didn't have to before. This is, no pun intended, overkill. nt

[OrlandoGator]

26. Someone threatens me with a weapon and I'm supposed to run?

If someone makes the conscious decision to threaten or attack me, I can not be reasonably expected to trust the judgment of the attacker and hope he doesn't use the weapon as I run away.

Fighting back isn't for everyone, I know. But some of us don't cower to cowards.

[pitohui]

29. i agree w. you orlandogator

you can die just as good of being shot in the back, it's a chance i would prefer not to take, sometimes you do have to defend yourself & any delay could be deadly

[geomon666]

61. Well you know, it worked alright before.

I sure as hell didn't hear anyone complaining about it. Now I have to wonder if some freaking nut bag is going to kill me in a bar or a club or hell just on the street. And all he has to say is "He threatened me".

[Qibing Zero]

72. Who on earth said you had to run?

If your options are either kill or run, we have larger problems than just this bill.

[OrlandoGator]

76. Someone threatens you with a weapon. What other options are there?

You can fight back or run. Or hand over all your money and shiver with fear, I guess.

[Qibing Zero]

79. 'Fighting back' doesn't mean using lethal force... nt

[buzzard]

31. Only if you are sane. n/t

[OrlandoGator]

33. This is not a debate about gun availability, though.

This law only applies to people who own and carry a gun legally.

[aquart]

3. Which will kill tourism and kill the state's economy

Causing people to move elsewhere diminishing its electoral value. Not to mention the ones who are just flat out shot down in cold blood.

Every cloud has a silver lining.

[FreedomAngel82]

10. Yep

Why would a young family want to come for Disneyworld or other theme parks with this law? Why would school trips come? With this law there if I had children I wouldn't let them there either.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Eight Hunded People A Day Are Moving Here

I doubt this will stop them...

[damntexdem]

17. Let natural selection work its way on them.

And if they're mostly Republicans, so much the better.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. TX Is No Better

You can pack heat in church!

[Pithlet]

80. Yep. If I didn't have family there

I wouldn't step foot in Florida. As it is I'm going to convince her to move the hell out of that state.

[FreedomAngel82]

4. This is bad news

People need to get rid of the GOP in Florida and these unsafe ridiculous laws.

[pitohui]

5. i'm not so sure

the last thing an assault victim needs is to worry abt is having to prove later that she made enough effort to escape before she exercised her right to defend herself

my understanding is that a great many women in prison not just in florida but all over the usa are in prison for the crime of self defense, it is apparently not well-tolerated by juries in this country

a woman cannot realistically flee an attacker in many situations, given the reality of our stride and footwear

before i would say this is a bad law, i would like to know more

[OrlandoGator]

30. Requiring a victim to flee in all cases is utterly ridiculous.

If someone pulls a gun and you run, you are betting on whether or not the attacker shoots you. It's not a gamble I'm willing to take, and this law supports that idea.

[peacebaby3]

43. If you try to pull a gun, I'd guarantee he or she will shoot you.

And the attacker has the advantage since they already have the gun aimed at you.

You'll have a much better chance if you give him meth and read him A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren.

[OrlandoGator]

48. Self-defense isn't about OK Corral quick-draws.

It's about assessing your surroundings constantly and not getting yourself into situations as these. And it's about being ready in advance when an unexpected situation escalates.

I'm not saying that the use of lethal force is for every situation or every person. But we shouldn't penalize people for confronting their attackers and refusing to become victimized.

[peacebaby3]

51. You said the attacker had a gun so I was replying to your statement.

I've never heard of anyone getting penalized for reasonably defending themselves from an attacker. Do you have any examples?

[OrlandoGator]

55. "Reasonable defense from an attacker" is the point of this law.

It's not a free pass to shoot whomever you want. It just says that if you are threatened, you don't have to run away or surrender.

I live in Florida and I can't stand Jeb...but to me this is one of those "broken clock is right twice a day" things.

[peacebaby3]

63. What is the standard to decide threat?

What I may feel is a threat, you may not.

If you are in your car and I walk up to ask you directions with my hands stuck in my coat pocket, should you have the right to shoot and kill me? All you would have to say is you felt threatened if there are no witnesses.

I'm not arguing that a person has to wait until someone has them down on the ground with a knife to their throat to defend themselves, but I think that this has the potential to open up a pandora's box.

As I am sure you know, not every gun owner out there is reasonable and I think they will have the opportunity to use this law to practice vigilantism.

Also, I'm not ready to gun down some kid who comes on my property to steal my garden gnome. I had a pink flamingo, but someone stole him. :)

[Indy Lurker]

73. What a "reasonable" man or woman....

...would see as imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another.

The "Reasonable" man / woman concept is not new.

Also, this is not a license to kill, it a "justification" defense.

This means that if you shoot someone, you will still be arrested for murder, and it will be up to 12 people in a jury to decide if you were acting reasonable or not.

But then again, I'm not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.

[OrlandoGator]

81. "Reasonable" is used in law all the time.

In such a situation, it would be up to a judge to decide if the use of lethal force was reasonable.

[Indy Lurker]

74. no example but...

The article of the original post did state that previously in Florida, the attacker could sue the victim in civil court under the old law.

[SlipperySlope]

8. I'm shocked

I had no idea that there was anyplace left in the country where people had a duty to retreat. Thank God that Florida has finally joined the ranks of the civilized!

[Lilyhoney]

18. I am not sure I understand your post.

You thank GOD for florida joining the ranks of the civilized, by being able to not having to try to not kill someone? That's just fucked up.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DawgHouse]

44. By the way, you mispelled "maybe". NT

[Ladyhawk]

52. By the way, you misspelled "misspelled." n/t

[AlCzervik]

13. shoot first and don't ask questions later.

C'mon Florida, you know you want to change maybe this will be your rock bottom.

[RagingInMiami]

14. Maybe now I can whack that right-winger neighor of mine

Who keeps giving me dirty looks because of my "impeach bush" bumper stickers.

[Hand]

19. "You lookin' at me? You lookin' at ME???"

KERPLOWIE! "Yer honor, I'm SURE he was lookin' at me..." "Case dismissed! Whew, busy today..."
:scared:

[Oeditpus Rex]

23. I've had a saying for a long time

"That's illegal — except in Texas and Florida, where it's encouraged."

Somehow, it doesn't seem funny anymore.

[Lilyhoney]

24. I laughed for just a nano second.

You are correct, it is not funny any more.

[Lilyhoney]

27. Here is a link with a few good examples of what this law means.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/sebok/20050502.html

[pitohui]

34. thanks for the link

while the author clearly doesn't think it's a good law, i still don't see why

as a man, he probably doesn't fully understand what a threat it is to lisa when bob invades her home, even if he is un-armed, the fact that bob is likely to be twice her weight and much more physically powerful than lisa seems to escape this person

i'm satisfied this is a fair law

if you don't break into my house or car, if you don't physically assault me in a public place where i have just as much right to be there as you do, you got nothing to worry abt from me

the reality is that burglars who break into homes are opportunists & they DO rape when they get an opportunity

women should not have to worry abt being jailed or sued when they defend themselves against home invaders

[chalky]

38. Breaking in? Sure. But looks like Lisa can just shoot Bob down in the

the front yard with the belief that he was going to break in.

From the article:

....Lisa can now "stand her ground" even if she is outside of her home. But to do so, she must "reasonably believe" that using deadly force is necessary to prevent "imminent" use of deadly force against herself or others....
Previously, all Lisa had to do to win her case was argue that she honestly and reasonably believed that she could not retreat safely. Now, she has to argue, instead -- somewhat similarly -- that she reasonably believed that if she didn't use deadly force, Bob imminently would.

[Indy Lurker]

40. They have to be breaking in

The actual text of the law is below.

The law requires unlawful entry, or the process of unlawful entry.

Someone walking up your driveway could not be in the process of unlawful enrty.

"
64 The person against whom the defensive force was used
65 was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had
66 unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or
67 occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was
68 attempting to remove another against that person's will from the
69 dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle. "

[Lilyhoney]

42. Link Please.

[Lilyhoney]

53. Here is the text of the bill at this link.

http://www.flsenate.gov/data/session/2005/Senate/bills/billtext/pdf/s0436er.pdf

[DanCa]

28. If you percieve a hurricane as an eniment threat can you shoot at it?

Just wondering

[Flubadubya]

32. I've never been to Florida...

and I will never go there willingly. The place really is a "swamp", you know! :rofl:

[Canuckistanian]

36. Oh yeah, I saw an advisory in our local paper about this

They were warning people who are about to vist Florida.

Nice move for tourism, Jeb!

[meisje]

37. fine with me

[peacebaby3]

45. self-delete. Posted in the wrong place.

[Indy Lurker]

39. Seems reasonable to me

If you break into someone's house or vehicle, you run the risk of being shot, and if you are shot, you have no legal recourse.


If you act in such a way that a "reasonable" person believes you are about to cause imminent death or great bodily harm, you run the risk of being shot, and if you are shot, you have no legal recourse.


So if your not breaking into homes or vehicles, or threating life or limb, you will be just fine.

[peacebaby3]

49. Do you think Freeptards are reasonable?

I'm sure the Freeptards in FL are already salivating.

Bubba Freep can't wait to get him one of them aliens who was threatening him.

Seriously, what's the exact language of this law? What is legitimate/reasonable threat? Isn't that objective? What I might think is dangerous or a threat, you might not.

What if we are passing each other on a dark street and I reach inside my coat pocket to pull out my cell phone to make a call, but you think it looks like a gun and blow me away. Is that ok? You may have felt threatened.

You have always had the right to defend your life and property so it sounds like this law goes way past that. I haven't read it word for word so please correct me if I am wrong.

[Lilyhoney]

54. Link just for you.

http://www.flsenate.gov/data/session/2005/Senate/bills/billtext/pdf/s0436er.pdf

[moondust]

50. Until...

somebody who doesn't like you--for whatever reason--invents a little story about you "coveting his/her stuff." Bang! You're dead!

[GoneOffShore]

41. yet one more reason

that I won't be spending my vacation time in Florida.

I like Key West, but the rest of the state is a damn nut house.

sorry Floridians.

I do agree with Carl Hiassen that the best thing that could happen to Florida is a . . . no, I'm not going to say it.

[peacebaby3]

46. There will be a case like the one where the foreign exchange student

walked up to the front door of a house in a costume on Halloween night and the guy blew him away because he was scared (yea, sure)and then they'll revisit this stupid law. It'll take a couple of innocent, tragic deaths and it'll get changed. Too bad for the people who have to die and their families.

[lildreamer316]

56. I believe VA already has this law

Per my friend the law officer who was educating me about NC versus VA home invasion laws (like what you are to do legally when confronted with an armed intruder). I'll check and report back.

[genieroze]

57. Sounds like an excuse for premeditated murder

[OrlandoGator]

59. How can you "premeditate" a murder when an attacker comes into your house?

You'd do well to read the law before offering commentary on it.

Kthxbye.

[genieroze]

62. dupe

[Guaranteed]

71. Doesn't have to be an attacker.

Someone could come into your house unarmed, and it would be legal to shoot them.

Not a nice way to treat a houseguest.

[OrlandoGator]

75. If someone breaks into my house...

...it is simply not my prerogative to determine their intent and whether they are armed before I act to defend myself and my family.

[-..__...]

58. What Florida needs to do...

is honor all concealed carry permits issued in other States.

Currently, certain active duty and retired police officers can carry a firearm in any State they wish (with a few restrictions). This privilege right needs to be extended to the average law abiding citizen.

For any number of reasons,it is the tourists in FL that are more susceptible to being victims of crime than residents.

Don't want to get shot? Then don't try to steal my shit or threaten myself or my family. Pretty simple rules to live by.

[OrlandoGator]

60. This is a CASTLE LAW. People, please read the law before commenting.

From 776.013, F.S.:
"An act relating to the protection of persons and property...authorizing a person to use force, including deadly force, against an intruder or attacker in a dwelling, residence, or vehicle under specified circumstances"

Please play out your fictional "bloodbath in the street" scenarios elsewhere. If someone breaks into my house, it is reasonable for me to assume they are there to harm me and my family and the use of lethal force is justified.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

65. how does it differ from the previous castle law that was in effect

in Central Florida? Because from what you have posted that has always been the case here.

This is an honest question and not any kind of accusatory remark I'm genuinely curious.

[peacebaby3]

67. For one thing it extends it to include vehicle, so I could walk up to your

vehicle to ask you directions and if you felt threatened, you could shoot and kill me. You could say my cell phone in my hand looked like a gun.

This law also puts property over life. Before, if a person was unarmed, you would at least be questioned as to why you felt you had to use lethal force and there would probably be an investigation, but under this law, you just have to say you felt felt threatened because you are not required to value life.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

68. gotcha

thanks for the post.

[Horse with no Name]

69. Very real likely scenario

If a hurricane the magnitude of Katrina or Rita were to hit Florida, you will see people killing people at the pump.
Is it not a safe argument that if you don't get gas, your life could be in danger?
They should have really thought about this a little more.

[Guaranteed]

70. Yup. That's dangerous as hell.

They're extending "the line" outward.

There are going to be a lot of innocent people killed because of this.

[YouthInAsia]

77. I'm predicting someone blasts someone as soon as this law takes affect.

Guar-un-tee. I say by Saturday NIGHT some nut has already blasted some poor sucker who steped on his lawn or looked at him over the fence the wrong way

[kerry-is-my-prez]

78. The lawsuits will be flyin' soon - and for good reason....

If I were an personal injury attorney - I'd be moving to Florida - we will need them down here....