Anyone who becomes "born again" is a follower and does not deserve to lead

[tk2kewl]

Would you have a Branch Davidian as POTUS or SCOTUS justice? Born-agains are cultish freaks IMO.

[opihimoimoi]

1. Most are sincere hard working folk honest to the bone... its those fundies

who wish to impose their shit on the rest of us...dats the prob...

[tk2kewl]

4. i didn't say christians... born-again = fundie in my book

and i never implied they weren't hard working, just that they are cult-like followers and that disqualifies them as leaders in my opinion

[madeline_con]

9. They are definitely hard working....

they're workig hard to impose their will on all of us!

[opihimoimoi]

17. I agree, ya right...the koolaid is getting to me I guess...lol peace

[bmbmd]

36. How about you review the original source

before you make a proclamation like that? Jesus himself instructed Nicodemus to be "born again" in John 3. He teaches that a person must be born of the flesh and of the spirit. It's that "whosever believeth" stuff.

[triguy46]

63. I guess as long as you decide the definition and description...

you get to make the rules and pass the judgement. I'm a born again Christian. I worked for Gene McCarthy in 68, in '72 voted for Mcgovern and have a 32 year history of NEVER, NOT ONCE voting for a republican. So, I guess that is insufficient in your eyes? I am unqualified based on my faith? In this case you hold a negative religious test; The constitution holds no religious test for office. You carry that to be exclusionary, ie. you cannot hold office if you DO believe.

Or are you allowing older, mainline, non-evangelicals, to be OK? Is it just the 'born again' piece you don;t like?

We need a little bit bigger tent around here, perhaps. If you paint with a broad brush, expect to be painted with same.

[madeline_con]

7. I heard they're not Fundies....

but Evangelicals. They don't like to be confused with the "other" group. (wink wink)

[WI_DEM]

2. Jimmy Carter is born again and he is someone I admire

and has been a leader movement for peace and understanding for years. I believe Bill Clinton has said he was born again at one point in his life as well. I don't like broad statements like you made because it is too simplistic and doesn't apply to everybody.

[readmylips]

5. Jimmy Carter is not born-again...

He's a true Baptist just like Bill Clinton.

[WI_DEM]

6. Sorry, but Jimmy Carter said in his book "Why Not the Best?"

that he is a born again Christian.

Here's another reference (check out second paragraph of Early Career)
http://yahooligans.yahoo.com/reference/wak/presidents/carter_jimmy.html

[comsymp]

10. Better not tell him

'cause he thinks he http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22jimmy+carter%22+%22born+again%22">is.

[triguy46]

64. Of course he is

he'd admit proudly and share his testimony glady with you. By definition he's born again because he has admitted his public profession of faith.

[readmylips]

3. Most have mental problems and lots to hide.....

from the public.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

8. Gee Whiz!

Anyone who believes womyn are second best because some chick named Eve had a dish session with a gossippy water moccasin has no business in polite society, let alone the highest court in the land. Honestly!

[Az]

11. Ok this really has to stop

Yes, there are religious forces that are threatening our society. But just because a person is part of some of the sects that are behind these threats does not mean they are the same. There is a great range of belief even within groups that call themself Born Again.

Its a big tent we put up. The only requirement is you have to grant the same rights to the rest in the tent as you expect for yourself. And as long as they recognise that right as well they are welcome just as you are. It doesn't work any other way.

Our tent contains within it Christians, Atheists, Jews, Catholics, Taoists, Muslims, Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindus, and a host of other beliefs. All stripes and mixes of them. While they may believe various things the one thing they share is that in our government no one group can force their belief on another.

There are born agains defending the wall of seperation between church and state just as there are atheists up there.

[CBGLuthier]

14. Bravo

Unfortunately the antitheists just can't help themselves. They are more obsessed with god than most religous people.

[Fescue4u]

29. Exactly. Atheism is just another religion

And its becoming apparent that Atheist have their fundys to.

[Az]

30. Not quite

Atheism on its own is no more a religion than theism is. Its just a label telling you whether a person believes in a god or not. You can't really tell much more beyond that from the label.

There are atheistic groups that tend towards aggressive tactics but there are also groups that try to promote positive ideas and reason.

[QC]

40. But fanatics are all pretty much alike, and every ideology has its fundies

as the religion threads here remind us so vividly.

That's why it was so very easy for David Horowitz to make the transition from Stalinist to fascist.

[BeTheChange]

74. *Golf clap*

Im freaking appauled by this thread thus far.

Every couple days when this crap comes up I get to question my involvement with the Democratic party... sometimes I feel that DU is just the polar opposite of FR, with all the screwed up baggage issues.


Where does a very proud to be Christian yet Democrat for generations fit in here? Do they?

[CBGLuthier]

78. It can be disheartening

But don't give up, they are a small but unfortunately vocal minority and the mods will clean up the worst of the bunch. (3 cheers for The Magistrate for cleaning a mess an hour ago)

Funnily enough, I am actually an agnostic who tends to be very close to an atheist. But I do not consider christians, muslims, hindus and other who have beliefs different from me to be a threat to me.

The antitheists do not not represent the democratic party or even liberal values in my opinion. If they get too bad, just use the ignore function. :-)

[southlandshari]

41. .....

:applause:

[SaveElmer]

12. Evangelical and Fundamentalist are not the same thing...

There are many evangelical christian Democrats who consider themselves born-again. Many are liberals.

Fundamentalists on the other hand believe in the literal truth of the bible and believe government must be reshaped to conform to these beliefs.

[Bridget Burke]

50. Not all Fundamentalists want to reshape the government.

In fact, many have avoided political involvement, since their history often includes oppression by Established Churches. Amish & Mennonites are Fundamentalists. The Southern Baptists were the first to be seduced by Conservative Republicans. It happened in Texas.

Read up on the Dominionists, who actually have the frightening political plans. They "use" Fundamentalism & Evangelism but go several steps beyond.

www.theocracywatch.org/

[jaysunb]

13. And, I wholeheartedly agree w/ you !

:toast:

[11 Bravo]

15. Flame bait.

Christians aren't the enemy, Hoss. I despise the words, attitudes, and agendas of many "Fundies" as well, but I am not ashamed to be a Christian. And Jimmy Carter is a BAC, do you include him in your broad-brush slur?

[tk2kewl]

32. I did not blanket all christians in my statement...

just those belonging to cultish born-again sects.

[triguy46]

66. What's the beef with 'born again'???

Why do you keep on about those two words?

[MiniMe]

16. When was it that * was born again?

Wouldn't that make him too young to be president? Damn, we should have thought of this before!

[WritingIsMyReligion]

23. LOL Didn't the whole thing happen

up here (here as in, my land) in "the Port" (Kennebunkport)? I heard that Billy Graham did it on Poppy's porch, or something of that sort...

[Don Claybrook]

28. Not Billy Graham. That's the official cover story

I remember reading about this in the runup to the 2004 election. He was actually "saved" at a Holiday Inn in Midland or Odessa, can't recall which.

It was Arthur Blessett who "led" him to god. Remember this guy? He's the guy who wheels a cross around everywhere. I think he's walked every state in the country and in many foreign countries. Like Forrest Gump, but with a big cross. Anyway, he's the guy who converted W at some sort of religious seminar he was doing at the local Holiday Inn.

But apparently this didn't sound good for someone running for president. So they came up with the Billy on the Beach scenario, and his conversion experience is much more palatable now.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Billy Graham has denied that the beach thing happened.

[sweetheart]

18. and in every moment we are born again...

the past an illusion of ego and self. There is no leadership
in following the path of ego and self, and hence the
logical impossibility of this thread.

[H2O Man]

19. I respectfully disagree.

I suspect that viewing people who are "born again" as Branch Davidians is a rather narrow manner of thinking.

[rndmprsn]

20. i'm born again evangelical christian and def not a follower...

of those fools...dobson, fallwell, robertsom etc etc...false prophets every one of them.

i'm an evangelical in the jimmy carter way.

[QC]

21. Ah jeez...

[LittleClarkie]

22. Speaking from experience, are we?

Some born agains think that Dubya is the anti-Christ. What would you say to them.

You may have some born again Democrats bopping around here. Would you say the same to them.

Sometimes, having a non-religious talk about religious is like a mammal describing a fish. (with apologies to GARP)

[Hello_Kitty]

24. Born-again is not so much a problem for me but

Thinking that means you have to become a Republican is just plain fucking being born stupid again.

Either that, or you're an opportunistic power grubbing arsehole like * and Harriet Miers.

[name not needed]

25. Anyone who bases someone's leadership ability on their religious beliefs

does not deserve to lead either.

[name not needed]

26. .

double post

[Hello_Kitty]

27. I feel sorry for their kids.

It's one thing to decide to give your life to a fundie cult when you're an adult and entirely another to be from a family where you're indoctrinated with that shit from the time you are born. I'm amazed by the people I meet who came from these repressive hyper-religious background who are able to leave it behind when they grow up. That's gotta be very hard. My family was pretty dysfunctional and I've had to unlearn some deeply entrenched things as an adult but at least I'm fortunate that they weren't religious nuts.

[gulliver]

31. Do-over, wipe the slate clean, mulligan ...

... to me it is just a mighty cheap way to escape guilt. It's a form of spiritual bankruptcy. Bush used it to escape the weight of his worthless existence prior to his reaching 40. Personally, I don't think it is cool for anyone but the needy to use the born-again route. Certainly I can't stand the idea of it being used cynically to grab a presidency based on daddy's name.

[tk2kewl]

33. Born-again-ism show a lack of faith in humanity to me...

It shows a complete lack of imagination to take the words of a book literally.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. Good... Then Don't Vote For Any Born Again Candidates...

I guess you eliminated Clinton and Carter but look on the bright side you didn't exclude Nixon....

[Rose Siding]

57. You're misunderstanding the metaphor

The term "born again" represents renewal and redemption of oneself through faith.

It's entirely possible to accomplish this without strict adherence to a literal interpretation of the Bible.

In fact, not even the most conservative (right wing) fundamentalists take the concept of being "born again" literally, which actually proves another inconsistency of their literalism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. I Think Christ Addressed It....

A born again person is one who is born of the water (physical birth) and born of the spirit...


I have a lot of problems with fundamentalists but it's hard to fault them there...

[triguy46]

67. Once again, you are confused...

Not all born again evangelicals believe in literalism. Just the opposite regarding 'faith.' It is ONLY by faith that we believe we have entered into the personal salvation relationship. it is not earned, it is not bought, it is only by faith.

And the promise of humanity is??? Compared to the promise of Jesus?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Can We Nominate This For The Dumbest Thread Page?

eom

[BIG Sean]

56. Dumbest for sure! And Hate filled!....eom

.,.,.,.

[AirmensMom]

68. I'll vote that this thread is dumb and hate filled!

And let's not forget downright offensive.

[davepc]

37. So you voted for Regan over Carter then?

Carter being all "born again" and a cultish freak not fit to lead.

[QC]

38. And let's not forget Bill Clinton and Al Gore,

both Southern Baptists and therefore born again and thus unfit to lead.

Presumably the person who posted this blatant, pointless flamebait had the good sense to vote for Bob Dole in 1996.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. Yeah Being Born Again Is Common Among Baptists

and they are the largest Protestant nomination...


That's the opposite of a cult...

[triguy46]

70. Yes!

By definition, if you are a Baptist, you have been born again! So what??

[tk2kewl]

48. there are always exceptions

there are republicans that are pro-choice and democrats that are pro-gun.

but politics is about generalizations, that's how we end up with two parties; that's how we end up with left and right.

my original post was not meant to be hateful, but it was meant as a generalization, that for the most part i find to be true.

i find religious people to be more narrow minded than non-religious and i find the born-again variety of Christianity to be among the most narrow minded.

i call it as i see it, but i offer my apologies to those offended, and i encourage anyone who is born-again to work to bring about change within their church.

[QC]

52. "my original post was not meant to be hateful"

But it was. Moreover, it was based on an apparently total and absolute ignorance of the differences between fundamentalism and evangelicalism.

Quite a few Democrats are evangelicals. Why foster division among people on our side? What on earth is to be gained from that?

[triguy46]

69. Not getting any better...

I just hear antireligious bigotry. You could replace "born again", "sect" "fundamentalist" with black, nigger, spic, hebe, polack and it would sound just the same to me. You have stated and chosen a purely polar, all or nothing stance. Lighten up, its a big world and you need to be a little more accepting. if you want to purge the Dems of born agains and they'll never win another election, period.

[Shell Beau]

39. I hate you feel that way!

People who have a change of heart in their beliefs are not freaks. Yeah some are, but it is a shame you lump all Christians (born again) together like that. I am a Christian and I don't fit your description at all. But go ahead and feel that way. That is certainly your right!

[MellowOne]

62. "Born again" has been misunderstood

Beause a hand full of people claiming to be born again misuse the concept, it makes everyone else look bad.

Born again is to die to our old nature of selfishness and hate to renew ourselves to selflessness and love.

Most born-again Christians are loving forgiving people but you never hear about them. They are in NOLA giving out supplies to the people when the government didn't come through, or our "born-again president", I should say.

[mattclearing]

43. Tell that to the Washington Redskins. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Good One

How many SuperBowls has Joe Gibbs won?


Three...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. Good One

How many SuperBowls has Joe Gibbs won?


Three...

[tk2kewl]

51. a football team is a dictatorship, not a representative democracy

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. You Didn't Specify That In Your Original Post

eom

[mattclearing]

61. Doesn't matter. The issue here is leadership.

And Joe Gibbs is an undeniably successful born again leader.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. He Also Walks The Talk..

He doesn't holler at or curse at his players....


He is a true teacher...

[qanda]

46. Oh well, there goes the black vote

Newsflash!!!! Many black Democrats are born again Christians, myself included. But I guess we were born to follow, not lead. Sometimes DU amazes me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. I Don't Think The OP Is Here Anymore

eom

[tk2kewl]

49. still here...

my thoughts on the responses in this thread are here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4973098&mesg_id=4977438

[Tatiana]

54. Being a born-again Christian does not mean you are a "cultish freak."

I am a "born-again" Christian. The only person I follow is Jesus. The true teachings of Jesus.

The problem is that there is a false representation of "born-again" Christians in the MSM. People who truly follow Christ's teachings would NOT enact the policies that these right-wing zealots have.

You have shown by this post that you have bought into the lies of the MSM. REAL Christians love their neighbors. Real Christians take care of those who are sick or in need. Real Christians know that the love of money is the root of all evil. They are not greedy. They are not mean-spririted or evil. They seek to provide for the least among us and they seek to accomplish this through actions, not just speech.

Take for instance the example of Al Gore chartering airplanes and flying Hurricane Katrina victims out of LA. That is an example of a Christian. Not the zealots like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson.

Look at the work Jimmy Carter does with Habitat for Humanity, building homes for people who need them. That is an example of a Christian.

Look at Bill Clinton, meeting personally with survivors of Hurricane Katrina -- listening to the things they have been through, the pain they have suffered and ordeal that they continue to go through. He is trying to address the concerns of those people in shelters. He held hands with these people in prayer. He showed those people love and kindess. This is what a Christian does.

A Christian things of others and not just themselves.

I would be more than proud to have people like these as my President.

[BIG Sean]

55. Bullshit...and your post is no better than the Freeps

that hate for stupid reasons as well.

[rndmprsn]

58. this post is bullshit...

the level of religious discrimination and hate baiting on DU is really starting to scare me.

[dogday]

71. Maybe we should focus on that for a topic

Why are so many so angry at religion? Do they not know this is not religion that the far right has shown us? I am tired of seeing this Christian Bashing as well. Will we start Bashing all groups? Because otherwise I would think that this is bigotry....

[Stockholm]

60. Being born again is the best twelwe step program in the world

Think about it. No other twelwe step program known to man offers the same level of tolerance and excusability and as being a born again christian.

Take * as an example. Is he really a bonafide born again christian? Or, is he using christianity as a letter of indulgence for his previous abuse of toxic substances and a life of perpetual preppy "sturm und drang"?

Wake up born agains, you are being used.

Turning the table on those who for some reason feel a necessity to defend born again christianity. There is in my experience hardly any group who are more exclusive as born agains. Some cross the line and become Talibornagains.

[TWiley]

65. Hearing voices, and talking to imaginary friends should be

a requirement for anyone who supervises our arsenal of nuclear weapons.

[tk2kewl]

77. thanks for making my original post seem mild

:P :hi:

[Ron Green]

73. Maybe being Born Again happens EVERY DAY

or even every hour, or every minute. I can imagine that this corresponds to the "vibrational" activity of other spiritual traditions.

[rbnyc]

75. From the Tao te Ching:

"Therefore, desiring to rule over the people,
One must in one's words humble oneself before them
And, desiring to lead the people,
One must, in one's person, follow behind them."

And from the Grateful Dead:

"You who choose to lead must follow
But if you fall you fall alone
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."

Listen, I'm not religious AT ALL. I am very much non-creedal, and born-agains and fundies seem cultish to me as well, but A. we can't discriminate against a person for their religion--plenty of other valid things to talk about. And, B. I disagree with your premise that leaders should not follow for reasons that I touched on with the above quotes.

EDIT: typo, as if anyone will read this far in this ridiculous thread anyway.

[tk2kewl]

76. Good quotes.

the original post definitely got a lot of attention here. I am really surprised it hasn't been locked, especially seeing that a number of other threads that seem to have been in response to this one have been locked.

I find your quotes to identify a type of follower almost diametrically opposed to the type I referred to in the original post. A leader who leads by understanding and "following" those he or she leads is an entirely different thing than one who follows dogma.

[rbnyc]

79. Agreed. Thanks! (nt)

[Moderator]

80. Locking.

Please do not make broad-brush negative statements against a group (with the exception of republicans!)