WTF is "born again?" I never heard of it before the 70's...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

But then again, I wasn't into rural religions back then.


Hear this and buy it. I have no idea who they are, but they are good.
http://www.jcbsong.co.uk/jcbvideo.asp

[WritingIsMyReligion]

1. You "sinned" but then

accepted Jesus Christ in this really weird conversion-thing... so you were "born again." It's kind of difficult to explain...

[dalaigh lllama]

9. someone on DU had a bumper sticker that said

"Instead of being born again, why not just grow up?"

[JohnnyBoots]

41. Hahaha...spit out my coffee on that one. n/t

[tk2kewl]

55. Good one

:thumbsup:

[gauguin57]

56. Someone I know has a bumper sticker that says ...

... "Born right the first time!"

[Shell Beau]

62. No, not really. Christians

know that they will always be sinners. It may be weird to you but not to us Christians.

[ClassWarrior]

2. It's from the Bible...

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

NGU.

[dflprincess]

7. Though some think that may be a reference to reincarnation

not whatever it means to the fundies.

[dweller]

34. as if one today would have an idea

of what went through the Xrist's mind then.

still i believe it was in reference to reincarnation. Why is that so hard to believe in a cosmic consciousness that entails reincarnation in its philosophy? We live on a planet that is renewed yearly in many of its life forms throughout a seasonal process. While we are not plants, we have obviously evolved from lower life forms. Watch the creatures, and all other viable life bud forth, mature and pass away, the process repeating again and again. Why are we supposed to be different?

it's all just energy, in exchange and flux. All the more reason to nourish our giver, this planet, in this millisecond in eternity while one's awareness is alive.

dp

[Bellamia]

12. From the Bible, yes

and some liberals, non-literal Xtians understand it as a metaphor for "change your thinking, you change your life."

[ClassWarrior]

20. It basically means you were born into sin and death. Now be...

...reborn in Christ and life.

NGU.

[Shell Beau]

63. That is a good definition.

[CatholicEdHead]

3. Usually the context is that only faith (usually non-thinking)

will get you to heaven. There is no "works" component unlike in Catholism and many mainstream Protostant sects (e.g. ELCA Lutheran, Methodist, etc...).

[Blue_In_AK]

66. But the Book of James, I believe

says that faith without works is dead. One of many contradictions in the Bible.

[Shell Beau]

71. Where is the contradiction there?

[Blue_In_AK]

75. I think Christians of the "born-again" variety

believe that once you accept Jesus as your savior, that's it, you're saved, and you can kind of sit back on your laurels, whereas other more progressive branches of Christianity believe that you have to continue to "do" things, i.e., good works, to remain a Christian in good standing.

Additionally, it seems to me (and I realize this is a generalization) that the "born-agains" are more negative -- don't drink, don't dance, don't smoke pot, don't have sex, etc. etc. etc. -- while the progressive Christians have a more positive message -- that it is their duty to serve and take care of each other and those less fortunate. To me, they just seem more inclusive, not like some restricted "club" of the "saved."

Just my opinion and not meant to flame anyone.

[Shell Beau]

77. I certainly think being saved means

doing good deeds,etc. I don't really know anyone (not that they don't exist)who thinks once you are saved you are free from doing good deeds, good behavior, etc. It is something one must continually work on. Christians tend to try to be Christ-like. And that is something that is unattainable but something one should strive for. Not having sex, not drinking, not smoking pot, those aren't necessarily negative things IMO. Hypocrisy is my main problem with SOME Christians. I don't think just one part of the Bible needs to be focused on. It should ALL be focused on. Not just the parts that fit whatever their agenda may be (hatred against gays, etc.).

[Blue_In_AK]

78. Whatever -- you have your experiences...

...I have mine.

Peace.

[FlaGranny]

87. From my fundy relatives,

it does mean once you are born again, you stay that way - no matter what you do. It is called "backsliding" to start sinning again. They do believe that once saved, always saved (i.e., born again). They believe that you can't be "unsaved" or "un-born again" even if you commit mass murder. Once you are born again, you are forgiven all your sins, past, present and future. I'm not kidding, that's how they explain it. It has never made a lick of sense to me.

[Shell Beau]

90. That doesn't go with the teaching of the Bible.

To be forgiven of a sin, one must ask for forgiveness and be sincere. But whatever, people believe different things. Even though I don't know any Christians that believe that.

[dalaigh lllama]

110. I had a Catholic nun tell me once that

if I went to mass on the First Friday of the month for nine months, it was an automatic shoo-in to heaven... Of course, I did it.

Isn't dogma fun?

[ReaderSushi]

103. Faith not works...

essentially it's couch potato christianity.

[DanCa]

4. Some one who has refound god and than thinks its thier duty to save

every one. Think of the jim and tammy faye baker types. I think thats what started it.

[Shell Beau]

64. It is not really about re-finding God but more about

finding Him. Our first birth is when we are actually born. The second birth is about finding God.

[triguy46]

72. Well said...

I get the feeling that Christians are not too welcome around here:(

[Shell Beau]

74. No, they are welcome.

You have to take the good with the bad!

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

32. Hillbillies? Hicks?

I thought I was on a liberal board, but clearly I have accidentally wandered into a meeting of the Savannah Junior League.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

33. Sorry, the "born Again" group has spokesmen that relegate the

group to that status for a lot of people.

peace.

http://www.jcbsong.co.uk/jcbvideo.asp

[QC]

36. So-called "hillbillies" and "hicks,"

along with plowboys, shitkickers, rednecks, and bumpkins, were once the foundation of the Democratic Party.

Back then, self-important bourgeois prisspots voted Republican.

Clearly a lot has changed.

[Gato Moteado]

38. that's because back then the democratic party was not....

...the party of civil rights. remember lincoln was a republican.

the parties switched platforms on civil rights sometime in the 20th century and the republicans became the anti-civil rights party. the democrats in the south (i.e. dixiecrats) were slow to figure this out and it was a while before they changed over to the republican party.

hell, with this delay scandal, all you hear from these republicans in response to the fact that ronnie earl indicted more dems than reps is that it's because texas was all democrats until recently. the whole state of texas didn't change its political views overnight! they were dixiecrats that finally realized the republican party was for them and they switched.

so, yes, at one time the democratic party did appeal to the rednecks and racists. thank god those days are long behind us. and aren't you glad? would you want to be in the same political party as fred phelps, the kkk, rush limbaugh, bob jones, etc? i don't think so.

my original point was that these strange abberant forms of christianity (i.e. born agains) are hillbilly offshoots. the catholic church has its own problems, as we all know...but compared to these wacky, self righteous, bigoted, judgemental, homophobic, xenophobic, pat-robertson-watching, jerry-falwell-worshipping, fox-news-loving, war-mongering, fascist, republican-voting, braindead, whitetrash, so-called-evangelical-christians the catholic church doesn't look so bad.

i don't identify with any organized religion. i was brought up in a non-practicing catholic family. i went to catholic grade school. i disassociated myself with the church (and all organized religion) at a young age because the hypocrisy was obvious to me. but these evangelicals or born agains take the cake. and if you can't see that the movement is prevalent in the redneck south, you're not looking very hard. and i can't understand why you'd want to have these people as political allies.

[Gato Moteado]

39. oh and by the way......

....i'm not saying everyone from the south is a redneck. but the fact of the matter is that they do outnumber the good folks there. look at the entire south....it's red. not a blue state in the bunch.

i have spent plenty of time in the south (lived there for 15 years) to know there are tons of great people there. but the people i'm down on are the southerners with the bigoted redneck mentality (i.e. freeper types). they are white trash....garbage. to apologize for them is like sticking up for nazis. it's an embarrassment to have them living in our country.

[QC]

40. My point had to do with your unfortunate choice of words.

Genuine progressives do not engage in class hatred.

You might also want to find out the differences between evangelicals and fundamentalists. It's always a good thing to have some idea of what one is talking about.

And, for what it's worth, Fred Phelps is a Democrat, but he's most assuredly not my ally, nor do I want him to be.

[Gato Moteado]

51. there was no class hatred intended

the words: hillbilly, hick, redneck, white trash, and freeper, etc have nothing to do with class. they have to do with character or lack thereof. pat robertson and jerry falwell are rich, yet they're still white trash. jesse helms and strom thurmond were certainly wealthy...yet is there any doubt that they were white trash underneath their wealth?

if i had said that all working class or poor people in the south are white trash, then you'd have a case against me. that's not what i said.

regarding the nuances between evangelicals, fundamentalists, born agains, and churches that include rattlesnake-handling and strichnine-drinking as part of their program, you're right - i blurred the lines. maybe i don't know all the differences between these abberancies of christianity but i do know this: 30% - 35% of those people that voted for bush in 2004 indentified themselves as evangelicals. so, if evangelicals' idea of christian values includes war, corporate socialism, racism, bigotry, screwing the poor and the sick and the elderly, and destroying the environment then i stand by my words.

as for fred phelps being a democrat, you're gonna have a hard time selling that idea to anyone. he might have been a dixiecrat, but he's no democrat.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

54. But it is nonetheless class hatred

Rednecks, hillbillies, white trash etc. were all used by rich and middle class whites to degrade white people who were laborers or poor.And yes,many of them are evangelical, but so what? That doesn't necessarily mean they're a bushbot or bigoted. Many of these same "hillbillies" as you call them voted Democratic back in the day not because they were Dixiecrats but because the Democratic party used to be the party of the working class.

PS: Working class people were the only group that a majority voted for Kerry. Every other category went to Bush.

[Gato Moteado]

58. well, i'm not rich.......

....and even though i'm middle class, i've always identified with the working class. i grew up in chicago and worked a factory job to put myself through school. i was a union member and would still be today if i was working in that capacity. as far as i'm concerned, the working class is the most important group of people in the country...they do all the work, but in most cases don't get compensated accordingly. and when i use the terms white trash, redneck, cracker, etc i am certainly not trying to degrade the poor and the laborers. as i explained in my previous post, these terms have come to describe a state of mind rather than a socio-economic class.

my beef is not with good, compassionate, open minded southern people. my beef is with the people (whether from the north or the south) that perpetuate bigotry and racism. and i'm not dumping on christians...i'm dumping on the people that pay lip service to christianity but whose actions and views are totally incongruent with the teachings of jesus. some call themselves evangelicals, others call themselves born agains....i call them hypocrites. and in the south, a large percentage of the whites (maybe even a huge majority) are bigoted, racist people that call themselves evangelical or born again or just plain christians. and guess which political party these people identify with? they cheerlead for war and bigotry. they are trash. thus, the term white trash is used...sorry if it offends you. if they vote for candidates that belong to the GOP, which has become a front for rich petroleum companies and the military industrial complex, i will treat them with the same amount of respect that i would give any other fascist.

and as for the democratic party having been the party for the working class, as far as i know they still are. remember bush's words when he was addressing a group of rich donors...he said "some call you the elite, i call you my base".

[Celeborn Skywalker]

59. I understand what you mean when you say redneck

My main beef is with the words used, I guess. I'm just uncomfortable with "redneck", "whitetrash", etc. because they were used so long to denigrate poor people. I think we can all agree that we don't need bigots in our party, though.

[Shell Beau]

67. Don't forget the "southern" part!

[Gato Moteado]

82. look, i know that not all people from the south are not like that.....

.....but let's stop pretending that the bad people are in the minority there. open your eyes and look at the color of your state....it's bright red, right? how did that happen? it means a majority of the voting population prefers war wongering, poor hating, anti-environmentalist, bigots to represent them in their government. and most of those voteres are white and consider themselves evangelicals or some other type of "christian". the derogatory terms i used were aimed at those people only and i refuse to apologize.

i know there are good people in the south. lots of them. great open minded, progressive, compassionate people. the problem is that they are in the minority. i know...i lived in the south for 15 years.

i won't apologize for my views on fascists, bigots, racists and their sympathizers. sorry.

[Gato Moteado]

79. ok....you understand what i meant.....

...so there's no need to keep saying i was denigrating poor people.

yes, i am intolerant. i am intolerant of the intolerance of bigots, racists, freepers, and republicans in general.

[Touchdown]

96. Red herring. Evangelicals see it as their duty to

bring the good word to as many people as they can in order to "save" them. If they can't then they are sinning. Fundies call themselves evangelicals, and do the same thing. They are only more hateful, but not less strident in their proclamations of your sin. Both believe that everything that they believe, God agrees with them on.

An evangelical spits in your face, a fundamentalist hits your head with a baseball bat. Big difference in matters of faith there.:eyes:

[QC]

102. There's a bit more to it than that,

but then I don't expect a knowledge of subtle theological distinctions from someone who doesn't even know what a red herring is.

[Touchdown]

104. Whatever you think it means is irrelevant

The actual definitions of these categories of forms of worship mean nothing, when the experience of being subjected to the sanctimony of anyone using the language of the "evangelical". It's become as tainted a term as conservative, and it's used as stealth. I was the victim of pentacostalism in my teens, and they called themselves "charasmatic". They were just as judgmental, hateful and emotionally destructive as "evangelicals" and fundamentalists. Fundamentalists are just honest about their sanctimony. Hate with a smile is still hate.

Red Herring, BTW generally means fake answer. It also means missing the point. You try and make a distinction between the two terms as a bludgeon and an ad-hom. I think I used it right.

[QC]

105. "Hate with a smile is still hate."

And you clearly know a lot about hate.

Clearly, there is no point in continuing this discussion. Your own longstanding resentments make it difficult for you to be rational about this subject. Here's a little secret: I was also raised in a fundamentalist church, and it caused me some real heartache over the years, more than I can describe. But, I got over it and put the hatred and anger behind me. They only hurt me, not the people I resented.

[Touchdown]

106. Do you have a special IP device that can define me...

by a couple of posts? What food product do I dislike in casseroles? How much do I weigh? What's my favorite color? Was my teen church an Assembly of God or a Four Square?

I don't hate, and I don't resent those who belong to conservative churches. I'm just honest about the terminology, because in the end, there are no real distinctions when one faction hijacks the terms of another. I think it's much more rational than browbeating liberals over the minutae of proper definitions, which only shows your own hyper-sensitivity to the criticisms of your faith at large.

Your issue is with the fundies who claim to be something they're not, not with those of us who see them say they're evangelicals and believe them when they say it. Clean up your own house before you talk about the dust in mine.

[QC]

107. No, all I can go by is your posts.

Do you honestly think that Jimmy Carter spits in people's faces? Al Gore? Bill Clinton? Most African-American voters are evangelicals. Are they using their faith to abuse people?

In 2000, 40% of evangelicals voted for Al Gore. Even in this past election, a good many supported Kerry. Are you saying that these people do not matter? Should we alienate them? Are there really no meaningful differences between them and, say, James Dobson?

Do you have anything meaningful to say? Is there a political issue at stake here, or does the world revolve around your long-simmering and carefully cultivated resentments?

[Touchdown]

108. I see Carter, et al. by their works.

I don't have your electronic device hooked up to my computer, so I can't see your works.

I'm saying these people you mentioned better reclaim their own religion, before they, and you tell us what we "long simmering" resenters in your mood-modem should do.

For the record...Mushrooms, Green, 240lbs, and Assembly of God.;)

EDIT: I see people for who they are, and what they think and want for the country and their neighbors. I don't see them by membership in any faction or category of Christrianity, unless I'm forced by them to see it. If they believe in progressive values, the importance of the commons, responsible government, and a level playing field for all, not to mention being kind, empathetic and caring individuals, then that's what's important to me. None of that has anything to do with being an evangelical, and I find anybody who claims to be one just to preface their POV as if that makes them more legit is a phony in the extreme.

[Gato Moteado]

111. you make some good points......

but i think you're making an argument where one needn't be. i think you know the "evangelicals" we are talking about.

in my opinion, jimmy carter is much closer to a true christian than the stereotypical evangelical. same goes for gore and clinton (who may actually claim to be evangelical for political reasons the same way most repubs do).

merriam webster says this:

Main Entry: evan·gel·i·cal
Pronunciation: "E-"van-'je-li-k&l, "e-v&n-
Variant(s): also evan·gel·ic /-ik/
Function: adjective
1 : of, relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels
2 : PROTESTANT
3 : emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ through personal conversion, the authority of Scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual
4 a capitalized : of or relating to the Evangelical Church in Germany b often capitalized : of, adhering to, or marked by fundamentalism : FUNDAMENTALIST c often capitalized : LOW CHURCH
5 : marked by militant or crusading zeal : EVANGELISTIC <the evangelical ardor of the movement's leaders -- Amos Vogel>
- Evan·gel·i·cal·ism /-li-k&-"li-z&m/ noun
- evan·gel·i·cal·ly /-li-k(&-)lE/ adverb

i guess the people we are talking about are the ones described by definition numbers 3, 4b, and 5.

[Shell Beau]

65. Well, then call me a hick!

That comment is rude.

[Gato Moteado]

85. i would never call you a hick......

trent lott is a hick. ;)

[Shell Beau]

91. Okay you got me there!!

:)

[catnhatnh]

6. Certain Molds in older leftovers in my refrigerator are "Born Again"

How I wish a simple trip through the dishwasher or wipe down with Clorox could as easily free me from long winded,hypocritical moralists who believe they have a conduit to God....

[LittleClarkie]

8. There is a passage in the Bible that says you must be born again

that these folks take quite literally.

It generally means the person has had a rather dramatic awakening to religion. I've heard it explained that when someone is an alcoholic or an addict or in other such trouble, often the thing that saves them has to be a dramatic thing. It is often their life preserver. And woe to you for monkeying with their life preserver.

I've spoken to folks who had obviously misunderstood something in the Bible, and I've tried to correct them. One woman thought that infants being thrown into a volcano was "abortion". I tried to explain that was absurd. She insisted that abortion was murder, and so was throwing a kid into a volcano, hence they were the same thing. She was a reformed alcoholic.

I knew a guy who said television was bad... so he went to his brother's house and watched his. Computers were temptation and bad as well... so he went to his brother's house and used that too. It was okay as long as it wasn't in HIS house. And no matter what I and his brother were talking about, he was the expert about it, ESP if it were religion. Maddening. Simply maddening.

Born agains tend to be fundamentalist, and literalist about their interpretation of the Bible. I went through such a phase myself, and came out the other side a Liberal Lutheran.

The above may not be completely accurate, but it is my experience. I don't like the "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality, esp. when each one who says that has interpreted thing just a bit differently from the others.

I reckon I can decide things for myself, and as long as I come at that decision honestly, my opinions are just as good as some fundamentalist born again Christians.

I do get sick of feeling like I'm some sort of second hand Chrisian for being both Liberal and Dem.

Oops. Sliding into testimony. All you wanted was a definition. Sorry.

[DanCa]

10. Too bad they dont feel the same way about love thy neighbor

[CatholicEdHead]

13. They do follow this

I interacted with one fundie online. "Love your neighbor", literaly means your nearby neighbor (aka next door). I tried to argue the point it was everyone in the world and was rebuffed time after time. Of course she was a virulent Muslim hater.

[LittleClarkie]

18. That's what I mean. Some get stuck on stupid. And when it's attached

to their religion, it's a "mitts off" situation. It's like their religion is their life preserver, and you aren't allowed to even look at it.

I've heard the one where "Love thy Neighbor" only applied to fellow Christians.

Or the "you can minister to a non-Christian, but you can't be friends with that person". Gee, I've always wanted to be somebody's faith project, haven't you?

Sometimes I think folks like that wouldn't know Jesus if he came up to them and tapped them on the shoulder. "Get outta here, you liberal hippy! And take those sinners with you when you go, too." Remembering of course that Jesus had no problem hanging out with folks he thought needed his help.

[CatholicEdHead]

27. Of course "Christian" in that line of thinking means thinking

like them and no others. Anyone outside their belief system is not "Christan" and you get all the heritic, sinner, and other nasty rethoric. ultra-Tradionalist Catholics are just as bad on this (e.g. only true "Catholics" follow the Vatican 100%, rest are "traitors" and "heritics". I read the Catholc World News comments way too much. It is so depressing http://www.cwnews.com

[DanCa]

28. Remember those snake handler people

I forget thier name but its along those lines. You know the ones who think that if the snakes bit them and they wouldn't die they were righteous? The lengths as to how scarey these people are just give me the chills.

[DanCa]

24. Hey ed your pretty cool you know that. :D

Seriously dude if you ever need someone too talk too am here for you just give me a pm.

[triguy46]

68. Who is "THEY?"

It is so tiring to read THEY this, THEY that... If you choose to cast your bile, please aim a little more carefully, it is splattering all over, hitting those who are not 'they.'

[11 Bravo]

17. Hang in there, LC.

I, too, am a liberal Christian. Sadly, there are more than a few DUers who believe that the term is an oxymoron.

[The Gunslinger]

11. Its a means

for coke head alcholic sons of rich oil mongers to have every wrong washed away so that they can run for public office, or even president.

[Az]

14. It is a form of Evangelical Protestantism

The term comes from the notion that the person recommits their life to Jesus. It represents that they have left the life they had lead before and have become born again in the worship of Jesus Christ.

The concern many are expressing comes from the fact that the majority of those constituting the religious right consider themself born agains (though not exclusively). Born agains often put their faith in the bible and god to the exclusion of all else. Many see their actions as being unreasonable. They are often the ones challenging evolution and other aspect of science. They typically the motivating force behind attempts to get prayer or the 10 commandments back in the public square/schools.

There is a range of behaviour within the group. Many of their beliefs are quite liberal. But they are unfortunately known for being very draconian on social matters that disagree with their take on the bible. Being literalists there is no discussion for them on such matters.

[boston bean]

15. You are saved, you have accepted God in all his glory, and if you want

to go to heaven, you must be born again!

You get baptized again and have all of your sins washed away.

Then you must proselytize to everyone you know and convert the sinners.

[applegrove]

16. It means a "new creation myth" with belief system that goes with it.

Some people do much better in life once they have been born again. They just do.

Some use it.

[Agnomen]

19. Don't confuse me even more

I've been trying to wrap my intellect around "personal savior" concept, and just cannot fathom it, despite discussions of it with christian (episcopalian and roman catholic) theologians.
Now this "born again" stuff is thrown my way - I always thought it to mean baptism.

[LittleClarkie]

23. I think that's an attempt to make religion more a personal experience

through a personal relationship with God. An impersonal relationship might be more comfortable for folks, but takes away accountability and such.

I'm sorta talking out my butt here, but I think that's something of the jist of a personal savior.

[Hardrada]

35. It is a theological error in the Lutheran view

and redundant since in the Sacrament of Baptism we are born again of the water and the Spirit. Adults can be baptized at the font in the Lutheran Church but the norm is infant baptism.

[eallen]

21. It implies a religious "experience." You don't just believe....

But you actually feel the Spirit when it creates you as a new man. In my opinion, it's bullshit for the gullible.

:hippie:

[Atman]

22. My favorite bumper sticker

It'll be easy to "get" here now, in the context of this thread, but the first time I saw it, it took me second. It said simply...

---

Born Right The First Time

[MountainLaurel]

29. Another good one

"If you're born again, do you get two belly buttons?"

[BrotherBuzz]

31. 'Ya stole my thunder

:thumbsup:

[Mugsy]

43. Carlin put it best...

George Carlin put it best:

"Ever notice that anyone that claims to be "born again" is someone you wish had never been born in the first place?"

:)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Like Jimmy Carter And Bill Clinton...

Good thing Reagan and Nixon weren't born again....

[Piperay]

25. To me it is those who have lived 'depraved'

lifestyles drinking, drugs, lewdness, you name it but it is all OK now cause they are 'saved' basically hypocrites they criticized others for the same 'sins'. My cousin is one of these, she broke up a marriage but in her case it is OK cause now she is 'born again'. x(

[triguy46]

69. Well, that certainly settles nothing... n/t

[Piperay]

109. It's not meant to settle anything

it's just my opinion and how they appear to me.;-)

[PowerToThePeople]

26. Born again. Fucked up first time, gonna do the same on #2. n/t

[stepnw1f]

30. Get Out of Jail Card

Corrupt people seem to always claim to be born-again don't they?

[jazzjunkysue]

37. It's like when someone lands on you in Sorry, and you go back to start.

Only, no one says, "Sor-ry." They just ask for your checking account number.

[Hubert Flottz]

42. Bush was "Born Again", the GOPers claim...

Too bad he never got an operative brain either time!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton Were "Born Again"

Why don't you ask them?

[atommom]

45. If you're born again, do you have two belly buttons?

(another of my favorite bumper stickers!)

[seabeyond]

47. god is omni present. in all. including jesus and me and you

they realization of this the aware of this is baptized, .... regardless of ceremony. jesus was tempted to sin, when he came to the awareness of god son, ergo god him,.......and once in that awareness, temptation came, he passed. he was sin free. yet in the understanding god is love, jesus showed us how to walk with god, of god. and it is not in perfection. it is absolute imperfection, the perfection is love. being perfectly imperfect in love

people are taking literally, they are not in awareness of their one wit god. they are searching and hunting for the god outside of them. so regardless that they say they are reborn they dont get it. is that a sin, no it is the non perfect, it is non aware. but wrong they are
*just posted on another, doesnt exactly go to your question, but will work and dont want to start all over

[Lexingtonian]

48. some of us are Born Fine The First Time....

The dears have stolen language from Christian mysticism to advertise the scaling up of their lives from dismal ignominy.

I've lost some popularity among my churchgoing peers since I suggested to them that what Born Again means, and organized Christianity amounts to, is crossing the same bridge again (and again, and again) and calling that progress.

Oh, my question is: do you think we can we get Born Agains to go for a third shot?

[izzybeans]

49. b/c The born agains hadn't been born yet. They first had to snort all

blow, drink all the booze, and mess around with as many "free love" men and women as they could before they could be born again. The 70's seems about the right time for such an "awakening". the funny thing about sobering up, for some it leads to even greater irrationality then during their most stoned moment.

<pseudo-satire>

[bmbmd]

50. Okay-here's a link to the Gospel of John.

If you really want to know for yourself where the expression came from, scroll down to chapter 3. If you don't have enough intellectual curiosity to understand the origin of the phrase, don't. Remember that John was the "apostle whom Jesus loved", and was given responsibility for Mary at the Crucifixion. He was an eyewitness to these events.

http://www.raptureme.com/resource/kjv/John.html

[SoCalDem]

52. It was just "code-speak" for

I am more religious than YOU are..and Jesus loves ME more :)

and YOU are going to hell unless you let ME convert you:)

[progressivebydesign]

53. "Born Right The First Time". My favorite bumper sticker. n/t

[txaslftist]

57. "Born Again" has biblical roots through the Apostle Paul and others...

...unfortunately, here in the South it has come to mean something entirely different.

As a student at Baylor I sat, stunned and amused, in the First Baptist Church in Waco as someone was "born again". It was a fellow student, someone I knew, and he suddenly leapt up from the pews behind me, ran forward and fell to his knees in front of the preacher. Not only did no one else seem to mind, they all acted as if it were the most natural thing in the world.

The preacher put his hands on the head of this "born again" fellow, and said many loud thanks to the spirit of the Loard for bringing another soul to salvation.

I'd like to say there was a happy ending. Sadly, the student fell back into sinful ways (or backslid, as they say in the South), and was soon to be seen in the company of loose women, imbibing copious amounts of the devil's elixer, and even (dare I say it) dancing.

Accordingly, having witnesses this not once but several times as a student at a Baptist University, I came to the conclusion that "born again" is code for one's introduction into a life of rank hypocracy. A life that permits of Saturday night drunken frolic and Sunday morning repentance; a life that permits of lynching, capital murder, segregation and misogyny; as long as you say you are sorry.

"Born Again"? Not for me. I got it right the first time.

You know why baptists don't f*ck standing up? People might think they are dancing.

[triguy46]

60. I find it troubling....

that we are supposed to be the 'big tent' party yet there are regular assaults on people of faith on this blog. I've yet to see a thread started, "What's wrong with those frickin' atheists" here. Or, "I"ve had it with new age crystal herbal wyccan diet freaks."

If you paint with a broad brush you cover a lot of space. What I see when I enter these is bigotry. Don't the freeps have the corner on that? As was posted on a similar thread this AM, "So you voted for Reagan over Carter?"

To expand, has Jimmy Carter's admitted born again experience been a personal threat to you? has he affected you? If not, then your brush needs to be smaller. Focus on those worthy of your scorn, the dobsons, robertsons.

There is too much hate around here, or at least dismissive smugness.

[Shell Beau]

61. It just means that you rid yourself

of your old (bad, if you will) ways.

[triguy46]

70. Welcome to DU, all are welcome except born again Christians.

[Shell Beau]

73. That is not how all the people feel.

Yes, I feel like Christians get ripped on. But ask atheists, they feel they do too. Of course we all believe what we believe. Some comments are going to be rude. But that is not the way all of DU feels.

[triguy46]

83. I know that, just feeling crabby, seems like theres been

an unusually large number of DU antiChristian threads of late.

[apnu]

101. hang around for a while... you'll see that they come and go.

And this particular round, was probably started by the whole "Miers is a nutty born again, 30 years ago" rumors.

It is rumored that she does belong to an obscure church, with some very right leaning bullshit. But none of it is known as fact per se. However, we shouldn't be wasting time on her religion and and we should be wasting our time on drowning her in a sea of "you're an un-qualified trial lawyer!" calls.

[apnu]

86. And this atheist says:

I feel eternally ripped on by American society. No other first world country has as much trouble as America has in keeping a belief system separate from the society as a whole.

Half of the time, when I go to a baseball game I have to put up with "God Bless America" instead of the national anthem! I hate that, I came to watch baseball not worship a sky-god. Many of our big holidays are directly related to some kind of religion. I try to lie to myself about the December holidays and enjoy it as a time of celebration of love and friendship. But its very hard when the main holiday spattered everywhere is called CHRIST's MASS! (even though it's really a pagan thing, but I don't want to get into that thorny bush right now)

Not to mention that I have to deal with God references on my money, so every time I buy a pack of gum, I'm made aware of being forced to acknowledge a deity. I feel very put upon by Christians in America. We feel that in America people should be allowed to choose whatever they want with their deity and keep it a private matter.

And when the subject does come up about my thoughts on a deity, everybody but atheists treat me like some kind of nut bar because I choose not to participate. I'm sick and tired of people finding out about my non-belief and trying to convert me. I've been chased by every organized Christian cult, packs of Catholics, Muslims, Orthodox Jews, Conservative Jews, pagans (of every stripe) and Mormons (especially Mormons -- they won't leave me alone)

So pardon some of us for doing a bit of ripping on DU, its one of the few places we feel comfortable to let it all hang out and we get emotional. We don't have a lot of places to go, Christians can go to church and commune with other Christians -- atheists don't. I try real hard to live my life by my rule (that is everybody's got a right to do their own thing) but its real hard for me to not get pissed off when christians foist themselves upon me. And they do it all the time, and when I reject them, they always try to lay on some guilt complex and get snippy to say the least.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not singling you out specifically here, but when I hear the 'poor picked on Christians' stuff, I get to thinking that the Christian persecution complex thing is way over. Its been over since the Roman Empire converted to Christianity.

Again, pardon me for being PO'd here, I have nothing against you personally, and you're free to do you own thing, but don't believe for a second that born-agains have it rough in this country, they get more acceptance than muslims do.

Part of having a 'big tent' means putting up with stuff like this. People are gonna rub each other the wrong way under the tent. That's the beauty and sometime weakness of the Democratic party, progressives, liberals and everybody else hanging out here.

[Shell Beau]

93. I don't think Christians have it rough in this country.

But at times it can be rough here for Christians and atheists alike. We could get started about all of the other "God" stuff on money, holidays, etc. But that is not what I was meaning. I was referring to right here on DU. Being "ripped on" whether it is a lot or not is makes you feel like an outcast. I understand your anger, but it can and does go both ways. Maybe you feel it more often (and I am quite sure you do) but that isn't what I was really referring to. How would you like it if everytime the word atheist was mentioned here, is was automatically grouped with the words fundie rethug? We shouldn't rip on each other for our beliefs here or anywhere.

[apnu]

97. sure, and I'm trying to say that...

... many of us atheists are in a constant state of agitation and we come here and unwind a bit because we have few places to go and feel 'safe.' We're human beings, and by definition, we're flawed, changing, creatures by nature. We're prone to emotional outbursts and ill-fated snap judgments. (Incidentally, this Miers business is a good example of that)

That being said, is it ethically or morally right to rip up on anybody for their beliefs? I believe you're right about that, it is wrong to rip people up because they believe in something you don't. Also its un-Patriotic, at least in so far as I was taught in grade school that is.

[Shell Beau]

98. Yep, I agree!

:)

[sweetheart]

76. it means surrendering the past

If you are born again, than anything before that birth is dead.
As all moments die as new ones are born, being born again is
realizing in every moment we have free will, not to act out of
our expectations and preconceptions, but to see life anew.

There is then all this symbology relating it to baptism, as like
a newborn, to be totally immersed in water is to come up and take
your first breath of air on this gods earth.

To be born again is on the opposite end of the spectrum from being
a dogmatic fundamentalist, however much the words are hyjakked by
small hearted bigots.

[apnu]

81. Outside of DU, I have yet to meet a person who called themselves...

...'born again' and had them not be a small hearted bigot. Although I have met a few who turned out to be part of the ex-gay small minded bigot variety.

Every day I walk down streets here in the Loop of Chicago and I constantly run into pamphleteers spreading hate in the name of Jesus. Side walk evangelicals and other 'ministers' spewing some awkward exclusive Jesus love jive. There's a weird flock that shows up pretending to be Quakers but they hand out CD-ROMs of Jesus guilt complex. There's another group that was hanging around the 'L' stations wearing shirts saying "Jews for Jesus" -- I kid you not. All of those people have the same thing in common from what I've seen: they want you to join up with them and hate everybody else who doesn't join up with them by exclusion. Its an extension of Chimpy's 'you're with us or against us' foreign policy (which is probably where he gets that idea)

I understand your explanation, and kudos for laying it out, but I just haven't experienced the non-bigot born again. I get more acceptance as a heterosexual when I go to places in Boystown than I do from every born-again I've ever personally met.

So from what I've experienced, every born-again is a dogmatic fundamentalist. Except for some people on DU.

[Shell Beau]

84. That is certainly a shame that you've had those

experiences b/c I don't think they are the majority.

[apnu]

95. well I wish they'd stand up and be counted

Its probably similar to what a college professor said to me a few years ago about feminism. (The professor, herself, is a vegan and big PETA supporter. She's also proud to call herself a Feminist)

She said that the problem with feminism today is the nut-balls of the movement wound up with the loudest megaphone and, as a result, it turned everybody off. As a test, in class, she asked how many people thought of themselves as a feminist or believed in feminism. Her and one other student raised their hand in a class of 20.

So maybe that's it, maybe the ones who are the loudest born-agains are also the worst born-agains. I suspect the good ones aren't knocking on my door trying to push a God on me.

I wish the good born-agains, like many here on DU, would stand up and shout down these nutbars... but its not likely. How does one out shout the 700 club or Benny Hinn? (I had to put up with Hinn a lot when I lived in Little Egypt aka Southern Illinois)

Now, I rant a bit in post # 86 about my atheist views and what its like to live in a country like America, and having said all that, we atheists have the same problem. The only press we get is about the wacky guy who doesn't want their kids chirping about a god at school, or some other person who caused a ruckus in court because they wouldn't swear on a Bible (that's less of a problem these days) So we have our own bit of bad press and bigotry hoisted upon us too.

I'm sad that I meet these people all the time too, I wish they would just go home and worship God in their own way and leave me alone. I think a lot of problems would be solved it we'd stop bugging each other about our religious beliefs.

[Shell Beau]

99. What you say makes perfect sense.

I wish the same. I hate that the fanatics make us all look bad. It is a shame. We should take a stand. In everything from PETA, all religions, non-religions, etc.

[dasmarian]

80. The hypocrisy of being born again - fascism defined

How can you on one hand accept the teachings of Christ and on the other encourage or support the slaughter of thousands of people?

Here is the answer you have all been seeking: This neatly bundled God-Patrotism-Country First attitude held by those who are born again fit perfectly into a politcal ideology called fascism.

I encourage you, gentle reader, to examine this link. I don't know why there isn't more discussion of this type of topic on these forum boards. People here are so reactionary, but often don't see the big picture.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/The_14_characteristics_030303.htm

[Shell Beau]

88. Um, you are grouping all Christians (born agains)

together. :eyes:

[apnu]

100. i don't know about 'definition' but...

... the crypto-fascists in this country clearly seek to manipulate the deeply psychological and emotional process of 'born again' to their own hideous devices. I think they fascists here consider born agains to be good candidates for indoctrination. Much like Napoleon's dogs -- get 'em when they are young and impressionable.

I'm sure when Robertson hears of another convert, he thinks "Ah, another rube to keep on the hook"

Good link BTW, that's bookmark worthy!

[bloom]

89. I think it is meant to negate ones actual birth

and to reinforce the idea that women/sex are sinful.

So you have to be "born again" to be "pure" and "cleansed" of your sinfulness.

It's all about God the Father and all that stuff. And of course men don't give birth.


It's not like Goddess religions where birth (and sex) was more appreciated.

Notice how much the Virgin aspect is emphasized in Christianity.

And Death (it's like the opposite of goddess religions) - Jesus had to Die to save sins - people are "washed in blood" and all. While that happens in an actual birth (there being a lot of blood) - I don't think it makes any sense to say that someone had to Die so that others can be reborn.

[bunkerbuster1]

92. It's just quoting scripture.

And taking one of Jesus' parables rather literally.

Wonder what He thinks of all this?

[Shell Beau]

94. Well, I think some of the parables are meant to be taken literally!