Who is Ayn Rand?

[ck4829]

Why do RW'ers worship her?

But, why do they seem to overlook the fact that she was Pro-Choice?

[newscott]

1. RWers seem to love Svengali types.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

78. NOTE TO EVERYBODY: THIS THREAD WAS RECOMMENDED BECAUSE OF POST #52.

[Buns_of_Fire]

105. Yes, indeed. You HAVE to read Post #52!

I'm not kidding. You DO have to read Post #52. There's going to be a quiz on it later, which will account for 50% of your grade. ;-)

[Junkdrawer]

122. ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^

Kick for the evening crowd....

[Festivito]

132. Quick links to 52

Link to 52 inside full view (Try this first)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4973593#4975243

Permalink of only 52
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4973593&mesg_id=4975243

[bemildred]

2. A bad writer of novels for juveniles. nt

[NNadir]

3. Slight correction:

immature naive juveniles.

[Greyhound]

24. Self Delete, Wrong post

[bemildred]

45. Sorry, my mistake. nt

[Canuckistanian]

4. She created the original "Screw You, I Got Mine" doctrine

And took the "enlightened" out of "enlightened self-interest".

[triguy46]

66. And her follow up "Let the weak die and suffer" n/t

[philosophie_en_rose]

5. She championed selfishness.

That's enough for them.

[despairing optimist]

6. Trust me, you don't want to know unless you need kindling for a barbecue

[Az]

7. Ayn Rand was a philosopher that championed Objective reasoning

A hardline atheist. She wrote many books detailing her take on Objectivism and a number of fictional books as well (Atlas Shrugged being the most notable.

The reason RW like her reasoning is because she promoted the idea that greed was good. It was productive to society and created a mathod by which we could all fairly interact. She was basically an uber capitalist.

The failing in her reasoning IMO is she did not take into consideration that our own social natures make us to some extent altruistic. She considered altruism to be the height of corruption. She believed religions use of altruism to be a way of weakening the people and turning them into slaves. She did not see the bonds generousity creates in a society and thus rejected it.

[KAZ]

25. Good reply, but she also recognised...

that her heroes could/would have have been swallowed whole by the corporate and government "whores" of the time. A philosophy flawed in many respects, but containing many truths, to be sure. IMHO, her contemporary interviews displayed her true definition of "objectivism", much more than her novels ever intimated. The fiction was fairly complex, and might be appealing to those from many sides.

Plus, she probably was doing (a much younger)Greenspan. I still shudder at the thought. :)

[CornField]

93. Hey, Az

I hope that when DU gets the journals up and running you contribute. I have really enjoyed reading your posts.

[Dorian Gray]

96. Wasn't she also

a prominant "anti-Communist" in the 1950s during the McCarthy era? I think she turned fellow authors and Hollywood types into the FBI for their "alternative" political actions.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. it is rather complex, but

take your typical teenager. Forced by parental units to take out the garbage, to go study, to bring in the paper. Forced by school to study shit that makes no sense. Forced by friends to act in certain ways, if only to cop a feel or maybe a kiss - without getting abused later by friends or competitors.

damn that acne is taking serious root. School sucks. Parents suck. Not having a car sucks, and even if I had one, gas prices suck. I ain't got nuttin.

And Ayn says, Being different, independent and self-reliant is GOOD.

that is a powerful message. Some simply forget the simplicity and lack of depth she had.


Today's Harry Potter is giving a much healthier version to teens and interested adults.

[RebelOne]

9. Any Rand was also an atheist, so I do not see why

the right wingers would worship her.

[Az]

14. Its the economic right wingers

Rand will gather you nothing but howls of contempt for the religious right. They see her as an enemy and typically brand all atheists with the same mark as her.

[kestrel91316]

29. Libertarians love her. Republicans, not so much.

[dogfacedboy]

74. RWers like her because she wrote about

"The Virtue of Selfishness". The thing is, she wasn't as simple as that. Her attitudes were formed in the time of Hitler and Stalin. She railed against this sort of collectivism. Lots of flaws in her ideas, but some good ideas as well. However, she's highly overrated as a "philosopher".

[Blue Belle]

10. They worship her because she values money above everything else...

She'd be a great poster child for the party of "Me" (aka GOP).

[Felix Mala]

101. Supposedly her writings let talented people off the hook in so far as

they're often called upon to give a little back to society.

[kiraboo]

11. As a juvenile I had a hell of a time slogging through her works.

I'd say her books are written for naive, soulless adults. But bear in mind her background. She wrote from the perspective of one who had seen the effects of soviet communism on the human spirit. And she reacted to one extreme by fleeing to another. I don't like her work, but I understand how she might have developed her social philosophy.

[Az]

12. Just a reminder: Allen Greenspan is a follower of Rand's

He used to write for the magazine The Objectivist.

[dogfacedboy]

75. Rumor is, he and Rand were lovers at one time.

She was notoriously promiscuous, having affairs with most of the men in her circles. Broke up a marriage or two.

I'm not judging, just relaying what has been said.

[distantearlywarning]

13. Understanding Ayn Rand requires that one actually pick up a book

and *gasp* read it.

Most of the Republicans I know, like my mullet-headed neighbor who plays Alabama at ear-shattering decibels while he works on his broken down van (seriously - this guy's a walking stereotype and doesn't even know it!), haven't even heard her name, much less know enough about her and what she wrote to say that they "worship her".

The only people I know who can even reasonably discuss Ayn Rand are a handful of college-educated liberals, and they mostly hate her.

I think the whole right-wing = Ayn-Rand-lover thing is an artifact of an earlier time in the U.S. when the conservative party was interested in things other than stealing oil from Middle Eastern countries and stopping the godless heathens from teaching evolution in schools, and when some conservatives were well-educated enough to read books written by people like Ayn Rand. (And believe me, Ayn Rand would never have been any fan of fundie nonsense - she was a pretty serious atheist - just for that reason alone I think that she is probably rolling over in her grave over what the conservative party has become in America today).

[Ladyhawk]

15. I don't know. My brother is a RWer heavily into Ayn Rand.

His god is greed. His bible is Atlas Shrugged. He actually owns a VHS version of The Fountainhead. Awhile back, he told me that I might be intellectually "ready" for Ayn Rand, but I'm not into worshiping greed, so no thanks.

[LanternWaste]

21. Pedantic and self-absorbed

Having read Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead, I'd say her fundamental hypothesis is arguable (but valid)-- though it's certainly not this guy's cup of tea as my measure of the social contract comes mainly from Lewis, Abonti and Bunyan. But as for her style of writing...

SHE'S HORRIBLE! Pedantic beyond measure and absorbed in her own intellectual rigidity. Exposition that goes on for pages upon pages, a graduate (last in her class) of the Joseph Conrad school of writing- it's not a sentence if it doesn't measure three paragraphs in length and have at least fourteen comma's.

I love reading viewpoints I don't subscribe to if well written (Gore Vidal or William F. Buckley for two outstanding wordsmiths who's world-views are usually anathema to me). However, Rand's questionable hypotheses (let alone her conclusions) coupled with boring and banal writing equals an author I won't bother reading regardless of how trendy they are (or were) among the 'intellectual' crowds.

[Maestro]

38. "Intellectually ready" for Ayn Rand?

Next time he pulls that crap, ask him to read the Nobel Prize winning author Borges from Argentina. Then watch his head implode.

[distantearlywarning]

41. No kidding.

I didn't want to say anything since he's her brother, but jeez. What a load of arrogant, presumptous crap.

[Ladyhawk]

87. Actually, I feel the same way.

:shrug:

I can't stand to be around him for very long, to tell you the truth. :( His best friend is an actual neocon with power in this state and my whole family campaigns for the bastard.

[NNadir]

17. How exactly would a dead atheist "roll in her grave?"

We don't do anything when we die.

Well, actually, there is something we do...this reminds me of a Beethoven joke:

An obsessed music student takes a trek to Beethoven's grave. He contemplates the stone, and finds himself unexpectedly unmoved by musical passion. He decides that he must see Beethoven's face, not some monument, not some statue, not some painting, but the actual face. He looks around, and pulling out his handy pocket trowel, begins to dig and dig.

Finally he reaches the coffin and pries it open. There he sees Beethoven himself, frantically taking an eraser to pages and pages of musical scores.

"Herr Beethoven! Herr Beethoven! What are you doing!?!" cries the student.

"Shhhhh!" exclaims Beethoven, "I'm decomposing."

[distantearlywarning]

18. Well, I guess it's her decomposing corpse spinning in there.

But ok, I see your point. I just don't think she would be too pleased with today's Republican party (the whole greed thing aside).

And she wasn't much of a fan of deliberately stupid people either - I don't think she'd be a friend of G.W. and would probably have nothing but contempt for the ignorant masses who worship him.

[NNadir]

20. Well, as for deliberately stupid, there is the matter of thermodynamics

and John Galt's locomotive motor.

I've actually had pretty stupid dumb Rand dittoheads ask me if such a thing was possible.

Whatever her views on atheism, she herself was the icon of a religious cult. Not one of them could think clearly, goddess or acolytes.

[question everything]

35. I read her first book "We the Living" and loved it

Of course, this was just a book with not much philosophy or doctrine.

I believe that "Fountainhead" was the next step, and it appealed to many scientists and artists, as it was about an artist - an architect - being forced to bend his soul to the decision making.

"Atlas Shrugged" culminated her doctrine.

[JanMichael]

50. Done it, don't like. And I'm a stone cold Atheist.

I think her writing style is morbidly dull. Regarding philosophical ideas even moreso.

[BiggJawn]

54. Takes a stronger person than me.

I made it to page 85 of "The Fountainhead" before I threw it so hard at the wall that the fish was startled.
What CRAP!

But I thought "Great Expectations" sucked, too.

[PittLib]

128. Ugh. I actually made it through ...

as some sort of masochistic personal goal (college years) but skipped over numerous pages, particularly involving the character development of Ellsworth Toohey. I'd sooner stab myself in the neck with a syringe full of bleach than endure that tripe again. It does make me laugh, however, that my investor brother (who claims not to read fiction) has a hardbound edition of Atlas Shrugged on his shelf. When I expressed interest in reading it (years ago) - he suggested that I would be wasting my time ... that I wouldn't "get it". I was insulted then, but realize now that he was absolutely correct. He knew I would disagree with her "philosophy".

What I find fascinating is her connection to Frank Lloyd Wright. I understand him to be the basis for Howard Roark ... but they seem to me to be so different in their ideologies.

[not systems]

16. Cult leader...

she was interesting in some ways.

Grew up in Russia and spent her life working to
destroy Communism by creating a counter ideology
of fundamentalist materialism.

She was considered a "Libertarian" but now most
of her acolytes are "Liberventionists" or atheist
right wing war mongers.

I once heard a hour long rant about the Pope that she
did that was interesting she hated the Christian idea
of helping the poor more than all most anything.

That her followers are mostly Bush supporters is ironic
in the extreme but I guess they can tell Bush from the other
type of Christians.

Her books are worth a quick skim just to view her twisted
smoke stack utopia.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. Ayn Rand had the morality of a flea

Ayn Rand was an incredibly bad writer that a lot of people try to pass off as a good writer. I think her books make excellent doorstops. They don't make good coasters because they're too prolifically large. They could conceivably make tiny sitting stools for toddlers, and double as tiny hydrants for tiny male pups.

Ayn Rand was born in Russia to a Jewish family. She was not in the least attractive, but is quite famous for stabbing her best friend in the back by having had sex with her best friend's husband.

Ayn Rand's books all reflected her philosophy: "I've got everything, you've got nothing, f*** off, loser!!"

She was a whacko: :freak:

A lot of right wingers love her books and idea (she really only ever had one idea in her life - pure, 100% selfishness). Some of those who love her books and idea like to think of themselves as "too cool" to be right wingers, and so refuse to be called right wingers. They prefer the name 'Libertarians.' Don't let them fool you. They're right wingers no matter what they want you to call them.

[populistdriven]

27. bingo! your post concisely outlines the revolting aspects of rand

:yourock:

[LanternWaste]

28. Granddad used to tell me

Granddad used to tell me that Libertarians were just Republicans without the courage of their own convictions...

Note to the self-advertised 'liberal' libertarians on DU- if the shoe doesn't fit, don't feel Granddad was targeting you (although he had a few choice words for "Leftbertarians", too... but that's another post)

:)

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

40. I've also heard it said that a Libertarian is

just a Republican who wants to smoke pot.

[Batgirl]

22. she believed pure unfettered capitalism worked

because it would reward the deserving. The virtuous and hard-working would rise to the top, spreading prosperity and goodness, and the cheaters and looters would deservedly fail. In her works of fiction, that's what happened. It's pretty hard to cling to this vision of reality once you've seen how organizations, such as businesses, are burdened by the equally human traits of fear, jealousy, dishonesty, back-stabbing, buck-passing, credit-stealing, short-cut taking, gutlessness etc.

I think her ideas were irresistably flattering to a lot of greedheads who liked thinking of themselves as the embodiment of heroic human achievement. While they were actually short-sighted ethically challenged assholes.

I wonder if Ken Lay ever looked in the mirror and thought he bore a striking resemblance to (fictional Rand hero) Henry Rearden?

[TechBear_Seattle]

23. The Wikipedia is your friend

The collective flame wars of hundreds of geeks can usually be relied upon. You will also find the Discussion page for the article interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_rand

[Greyhound]

26. A severely damaged woman. She grew up in the

soviet union, had a terrible life and was really pissed about it. Wrote four books all with the same theme. Enjoyed a resurgence of popularity in the 80's after she died ('81 I think) and raygun repugs adopted her ideas. Ironically they would be among the worst equipped people to survive in an Ayn Rand world. I read Atlas Shrugged, found it implausible. Couldn't get through The Fountainhead.
Enough Info? :beer:

[johnnypneumatic]

30. I'd have to disagree

Rand had a fierce belief in the nobility of the individual, the importance of the individual vs. the state, a reverence for freedom and truth. And a hatred of stupidity, liars, thieves, users, copycats, and followers (all of which describe republicans). While her views on economics and human sexuality were peculiar and erroneous, I found The Fountainhead to be an uplifting defense of truth and believing in yourself, against peer pressure, conformity, obedience to authority, mindlessness and ritual, the nobility of the human spirit against the degrading depravity of religion. She would laugh at Bush as the mediocre held as the ideal, lowering all humans to the level of the least capable. The chimp enshrined as the best that humanity can aspire to.

[MS68]

31. I agree...

I don't think she promoted greed. She promoted independance, self sufficiency, hard work and finding passion in your work.

All of which isn't necessarily bad...it would probably work in a perfect world, but our world isn't perfect.

It's my opinion that she would hate everything that the Bush administration stands for.

She hated people that felt like they were owed something and weren't willing to work very hard for it.

[darkworkz]

33. well said. eom

[distantearlywarning]

37. I agree with the first part of your post, but not the last.

Especially the part about "hatred of stupidity, liars, thieves, etc..." That, I believe, is true. As I have said 3 times already in this thread, I don't think she would approve of too many Republicans in the party today. Especially since many of them are trying very hard to keep the masses under the boot in one way or another (through military might, propaganda, or through religion) - I think she would see parallels to Communist Russia in today's U.S. (totalitarianism combined with an ignorant, superstitious, and apathetic public, if not the communism vs. capitalism part).

That being said, I didn't like the Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged (or much of her nonfiction), for many of the reasons already given here (and in that Wikipedia article) - I think her characters are implausible, arrogant, and primarily appealing to the young in spirit if not body (no offense meant to you, of course - my 65 year old father, who is a very wise man, likes Ayn Rand). I consider We The Living to be her best novel, with far more complex characters and an appealing story line, and I think she should have stopped there. I also found We The Living to be extremely compelling philosophically - reading it as a young adult gave me a permanent horror of totalitarianism and Communism. The rest of her books were not as persuasive to me. You can almost see the obsession developing over time - she was verging on crazy at the end, IMO.

Personally, I am far too soft-hearted and not nearly self-absorbed enough to subscribe to most of her philosophy, but one thing that always rang true to me about her was actually her concern that individual genius (or the contributions and interests of the best and brightest - and I'm not talking about Enron execs. here) would be sacrificed over and over again to the foolish and short-sighted desires of the masses or to the whims of the evil state, setting mankind back intellectually. I have felt this keenly all my life during my own time in public school, and I see it now all the time - when museums and zoos kowtow to the crazy fundies and take away their exhibits on evolution, when a few screaming school board members demand that intelligent design be taught in science classes, and when the Bush administration changes reports and punishes scientists who dare to contradict them on global warming. For all the bad things that people can say about her, she would have seen all that for the evil it was, and she would have hated it.

[elsiesummers]

44. Agree with you. Enjoyed her books but the philosophy is simplistic.

I actually enjoyed both Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead, though it has been a few years, and John Galt's manifesto in Atlas Shrugged was only skimmable, not readable. I read Atlas Shrugged when I was staying with my best friend while recovering from surgery a few years ago. Some of what Rand says makes sense - but the missing ingredient to her pure capitalism is a lack of value placed on those things that do not have monetary value - such as family and loyalty and love and foregiveness, for example.

I find my Randite friend and her husband an interesting example of how Republicans can brain wash intelligent people. One of the problems is when people choose not to let other points of view influence them (like only watching Fox news). What I did notice is that when unexamined talking points are a defence for a POV then there is no real defence.

Also - I think they dismiss the non-Rand effect of the Religious Right within the Republican party because, for example, if abortion rights are taken away from an objectivist - well they argue that they can simply afford to pay for they and theirs to get an abortion overseas, and who cares about everyone else.

They are very big on the idea that government does everything more poorly than the private sector and this is a point on which I find it impossible to make headway (convince or even compromise) with an objectivist.

I agree with you that the principles that Rand championed are not those of the Republican party. Especially the cronyism and the wanton pilfering of the spoils of government - these are the opposite of the Rand philosophy and she condemned this very sort of action -this sort of freeloading on the backs of those who accomplish. Also the inheritance tax does not fit with the Rand philosophy that those who get ahead do so because they have more to offer and not because they got a leg up at the beggining.

In some ways I think the Democrats have more in common with Rand's beliefs, in that modern Democrats promote a level playing field and equality of opportunity but not equality of outcomes.

I think for someone to truely believe in Rand's philosophys and to simultaneously believe in today's Republican party requires an extreme level of cognitive dissonance along with a belief that the Democrats are always worse because they are for a social safety net.

I also think the more I watch Shrub wasting tax dollars and expanding government in the form of defence and pork, the more I resent taxes, so in some sort of way Rand's ideas do have some basic appeal.

I also think it's much easier for attractive white people to buy into a sink or swim social Darwinism of Rand than for someone who might find the rungs on life's ladder of upward mobility to be a bit farther apart and more difficult to traverse. Very easy to believe in the power of the individual to get ahead when life presents very few road blocks. So I think Ayn Rand has a special appeal to those who have never been tried, to those for whom life doesn't present great challenges. It's self-reinforcing for a white male who has a great job to believe that he got ahead all on his own brilliance and gumption and that those who are not ahead somehow failed because they didn't try hard enough.

[BeTheChange]

49. I have to agree :)

I'm not going to waste time here expressing why I like Ayn Rand and engaging in the same "discussions" that I did when I was a young adult. It's counter productive. People react so viscerally to her that it's easy to become engaged in a debate that spans days. I read Atlas Shrugged when I was 13 years old. I've probably read it dozens of times at this point. Ive studied Ayn's works, her life, her philosophies. Members of my husband's family knew her quite well. I recived a great deal of my college education due to scholorships from the ARI. As a woman, she has always been a woman who fascinated me. When I was young, I wanted to name my daughter Dagny :)

Big surprise.. Im not satan incarnate. Im a card toting Democrat with libertarian tendencies, computing the reality of a fallen society. I think its a beautiful idea that every human have purpose and be unfettered to pursue it, unfortunately it is not realistic at this point in our evolution.

I suggest you read Rand for yourself to find out who she is. Many people read a myriad of things into her words. I like to think that most people skew them into hideous caricatures because the truth makes them question things like what color their ballons are, or who John Galt is, anyway....;)

Some quotes:
"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be
much easier to deal with." ('Atlas Shrugged' 1957)

"To deal with men by force is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion."

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." (appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')

"I consider National Review the worst and most dangerous magazine in America. The kind of defense that it offers to capitalism results in nothing except the discrediting and destruction of capitalism ... because it ties capitalism to religion." (Playboy Interview March 1964)

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion – when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing – when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors – when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you – when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice – you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot. "- The famous money speech made by Francisco in Atlas Shrugged-- I paste only this paragraph because it is the shade by which I read the whole.. so many see this passage as an evil ode to money.

"Upper classes are a nation's past; the middle class is its future."

"When I say 'capitalism,' I mean a pure, uncontrolled, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism – with a separation of economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as a separation of state and church."

"The world you desired can be won, it exists, it is real, it is possible, it's yours. But to win it requires total dedication and a total break with the world of your past, with the doctrine that man is sacrificial animal who exists for the pleasure of others. Fight for the value of your person. Fight for the virtue of your pride. Fight for the essence, which is man, for his sovereign rational mind. Fight with the radiant certainty and the absolute rectitude of knowing that yours is the morality of life and yours is the battle for any achievement, any value, any grandeur, any goodness, any joy that has ever existed on this earth."
John Galt quote that ended AR's last public speech (New Orleans Nov 1981)

[Midlodemocrat]

81. I agree with you. And, as much as I disliked her writing style,

I think she would be appalled at Miers' statement that * was the smartest man she had ever met.

Least capable. :thumbsup:

[mountebank]

97. Throwing in my agreement with this post.

Though it's been years since I read The Fountainhead and was undoubtedly more naive back then.....

[minorl]

108. Second the motion...

So true, so true...

[phusion]

32. Who is John Galt? n/t

[MrsMatt]

48. haha

that was MY first thought on reading the title of this thread too!

[Hello_Kitty]

34. Author of incredibly long and boring books

Full of monotonous soliliquys of which I could barely stomach a few chapters before conceding defeat. I actually admire anyone who could make it all the way through Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead.

[Bozita]

36. Thom Hartmann often has a guest from the Ayn Rand Institute

Very strange blend of ideas.

[UTUSN]

39. A Prettier, More Intellectual Version of Dan COULTER n/t

[Marr]

42. Because she turns greed and selfishness into virtues.

That's why.

At the same time, she has provided me with one of the only examples of poetic justice that I've ever seen in my life. I know a guy who is a big Ayn Rand fan. He's high on GW Bush, too- he's into the whole "fuck you" movement, in fact.

Anyway, he had this girlfriend who just adored him despite his obvious lack of character, and he lied to her and used her all the time. He once told me that he was justified in doing so, because she was weak and the weak are there to be used by the strong. Seriously. He also says that wealth is an expression of superiority.

To make a long story short, he finally dumped his girlfriend, breaking her heart. Not a week after that, she got a fantastic new job making alot more money than he ever has, and *his* job got outsourced. He now lives with his mom and gets something near minimum wage working in a warehouse.

[stevietheman]

43. She tried to make selfishness and greed seem reasonable, and failed.

The only populations her ideas would actually work on were creatures not existence in her time: robots.

[chaska]

46. If you haven't seen the movie...

See The Fountainhead http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041386/.

It is GREAT! Very funny, though not intentionally. It is so very ham-handed in places with the philosophical stuff, so utterly pretentious.

Bonus: Ayn Rand had a major role in directing it ... or something.

It's funny, but also genuinely entertaining, in an odd sort of way. Don't miss it. It's a cult classic for political types.

[Sir Jeffrey]

47. A lot of misconceptions about Miss Rand in this thread...

My answer: a wonderful novelist who writes about rugged individualism in a fictitious world of leeches at the top and bottom of society. Rand was not writing her two main works (Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead) as a commentary on society as it is (or was in the 1950's).

Like Orwell and Huxley, her works were a warning to moving too far in one direction (unchecked and incompetent socialism). Remember, she grew up in the USSR, which was no model of efficient socialism. It sucked out one's individuality which, if you think about it, seems to happen when you go too far toward unchecked and incompetent capitalism.

Basically, her points about a social structure that rewards incompetence and punishes intelligence appeals to many. Especially in The Fountainhead, with her comparisons between the main character and his foil/opposite, you see how certain elements in society try to break you down and remake you in their image. The appeal in this book is that the main character never gives an inch even in the face of overwhelming personal pressure, and eventually wins.

That being said, Rand was a terrible social scientist and economist. She had no formal training in either, yet she approached these issues from a very simplistic position: personal morality can be applied to society to cure all ills. This is her appeal to quasi-intellectuals (read: libertarians) who find no apparent use for government since they think they provide for themselves.

Right wingers do not worship Rand. Libertarians worship Rand because they wish to apply Rand's personal philosophy to society. Right wingers worship an evil and selfish ideology grounded in racism, sexism, class warfare, war, and theft.

To the Rand bashers in this thread, I have read most of Rand's books and I can tell you for a fact that Rand would HATE the average right-winger today...not to mention the lunatics in charge. She despised the use of tax dollars to fund ANY weapons systems. She offered page after page of blistering criticism about incompetence worshipped as excellence (read: Bush and co. today). She hated people who had everything in life handed to them on a silver platter all the while people like her main characters were left to rot in the dregs of society.

And contrary to the statements in this thread, she was not opposed to charitable giving. She was opposed to the coersion of the tax system precisely because the individual had no choice about what the money would be used for. This amounted to, in her mind, a similar claim that many have made about property taxes i.e. you really don't own the land since the government allows you to stay on it only if you pay your taxes. She applied that line of thinking to income and payroll taxes on your labor (sound familiar to any Marxists?).

As for her personal philosophy, well, you can live your life how you want regardless of what "high society", religion, parents, teachers, etc. tell you is the "right" way. Her idea was that by pursuing your own selfish interests you will be doing what is the greatest good for society: creating wealth, creating jobs, producing wonderful works of art, living life to its fullest, etc.

This hardly sounds like the same author being lambasted in this thread. I suspect most of these people haven't read any of her books. They take some bastardized version of her ideas and misrepresent them out of sheer ignorance or, if they did actually try to read one of the books, they did so only at a very simplistic level way back in junior high or high school.

[nvliberal]

56. What a crock.

Her "thinking" is rooted in right-wing, "libertarian" ideology, and, may I remind you, that "thinking" is mainstream in the Republican Party.

Nice try at spin, though.

[Toucano]

59. Chicken or egg?

Are her ideas rooted in right-wing libertarian idealogy or are right-wing libertarian ideas rooted in her writings?

Her thinking is definately not mainstream in the Republican Party which seems completely divorced from any libertarian bent it may have once possessed. The mainstream Republican Party are a bunch of theocrats who have little use for the ideas of Ayn Rand.

[Sir Jeffrey]

67. Okay...

Ad hominem attacks and guilt by association really addresses my points.

I love the way I get accused (directly or implied) of being <insert evil ideology here> whenever I express a contrary viewpoint on this message board.

If you would step out of your ideological reaction to an author you obviously do not understand, you will see that my points are NOT spin. Her thinking is rooted in uncompromising individual freedoms to live and work in society without any restraints. It is meant to be an IDEAL, not a practical, solution. But you'd know that if you actually read any of her books and understood them (aside from Anthem, that one sucks IMO).

And you also, given your "insightful" comment, have no clue what the actual mainstream of our enemy thinks. Libertarians agree with most liberal on many levels of social policy. They agree with small government conservatives on many levels of fiscal policy. Research Jesse Ventura's campaign to see what a Libertarian looks and sounds like.

Those who refer to themselves as Christian Conservatives do not believe much of what Miss Rand believes. And I guarantee you, the Republican Party of 2000 to present is NOT mainly Libertarian, nor is its thinking mainstream within that party. This would take about ten minutes of research on your part if you were interested in examining the polling data on issues and ideas that swayed voters over the last few elections.

A final point. Miss Rand described in one of her journal entries how the most important goal in her life was to destroy the idea of Christianity and all that it stands for. In her mind, Christianity (and, for that matter, all religions) was anti-woman, anti-intellectual, pro-mediocrity, and caused societies to wage war for irrational beliefs. Does that sound like Frist? DeLay? Bush? Blunt? Ashcroft? Roberts? Miers? Hastert? Hyde? McConnell? Cheney? Rumsfeld? Gonzales? Estrada? Does that sound like the average Republican voter to you?

[Toucano]

58. Your assessment is very fair IMHO.

Her experience from here era was very different from ours, and she certainly was no crackpot.

Hell, even William F. Buckley must shrug his shoulders at Santorum and Bush and wonder, "How the hell are these people calling themselves 'conservative'."

As an athiest, Ayn would not have been a fan of the fundamentalist motivations in the modern U.S. government.

[Finder]

88. I agree. n/t

[TOOLZ]

91. Ayn Rand is not a simple pundit as many here seem to think

Her writing was great, albeit prosaic. I think the central error that leads her beliefs down the potential road to conservatism is her premise that there are GENIUSES. Usuallly her main characters. And in her black & white world, those who are not GENIUSES are sycophants trying to penalize and exploit the GENIUSES. But in the long run, the GENIUSES are right and will prevail.

Thing is, in reality, there are all these SHADES of genius, smarts, entitlement, and if everyone thinks THEY'RE the entitled one, you get a bunch of pig-headed people thinking they agree and butting heads. Like Republicans.

Great novelist. Not as great social thinker.

[nvliberal]

51. Rand was a crackpot, but so are Leo Strauss

and Milton Friedman, and they ALL have a huge impact on current Republican "thinking."

In the end they're all cut from the same cloth: Greed is the highest virtue and anything preventing the accumulation of more wealth, no matter who gets hurt in the process, is to be avoided.

They're cultists; there's no other word to describe them, for their sick, ruinous philosophy doesn't work, and it will bring about the end of this country if not stopped.

[Telly Savalas]

52. Ella turned towards the window, folded her arms,

and said, "Kent, I cannot understand why you read that drivel. If there's anything worse than a bad political philosopher, it's a bad political philosopher who writes bad novels to present her flawed ideas. It's bad enough when she writes nonfiction works that foist assertions and conjecture on the reader and tries to pass it off as 'reason', but when she tries to dress it up in a fictional work with one-dimensional characters and a cheesy plot, it's downright putrid. I'd go so far as to say that her writings dishonor the thousands of years of evolution required for humans to develop language skills.

"The worst element of her 'writing' is how utterly ridiculous the dialogue is. In real life people converse with one another, they don't take turns delivering speeches to one another. If she'd ever spent anytime actually interacting with another human being who wasn't clinically insane, she'd know this and it would be reflected in her writing.

"Furthermore, don't you think she could go to more effort to be a bit more terse? I mean, Jesus Christ, I've seen bumperstickers that are more nuanced than one of her novels, so I don't see why she can't be more succinct in the exposition of her cheap little 'ideas'. Does it really take an 800 page novel to say "guvmint bad, capitalism good"?

"Face it, Kent. She's a second-rate hack that makes Jackie Collins look like Dostoevsky. Put that shit down and do something a bit more intellectually engaging. For instance, there's a Dukes of Hazzard marathon on the country network. Try watching that instead."

Kent set the book on the table and glanced up at Ella.

"Ella," he said, "I see your collectivist friends have poisoned your mind with these bizarre ideas about word economy and multi-dimensional characters. Such things are only devices to enslave the Individualist. Every word the Individualist says is a gift to the universe, so the universe benefits the more he speaks. Hence all this silliness about being brief when trying to make a point does not apply to the Individualist.

"Let's be clear, Ella, that when I say the Individualist gives a gift to the world by expressing his thoughts, it is not altruism that motivates the giving of this gift. No. No. No. Altruism is an evil sentiment that only results in atrocities like child labor laws and homeless people being fed. Thus the Individualist is ego-driven. By satisfying my own desires and showing complete contempt for the needs of others, I make the laissez-faire capitalist system work as it should and the benefits rain down on everyone. Although many economists prefer to use the term 'trickle down.'

"For instance, when I enriched your life last week by giving you a 45 minute lecture on the necessity of abolishing the capital gains tax, I didn't do it because I wanted to please you. Rather I did it because I love the sound of my own voice. The fact that you were enlightened by my observations is only secondary. Nevertheless it demonstrates my point about how being selfish is superior to being altruistic. Had I been altruistic and payed heed to you wish for me to...what was that phrase you used repeatedly? 'Shut the fuck up', I believe it was? Well, had I done that, then you'd have spent the rest of your life unaware of the great thoughts that course through my mind on an hourly basis.

"Yes, Ella. It amazes me how unwilling the collectivist mind is to accept the truth. Why wasn't it just last week when you were claiming that society should chain down the Individual by using some of his resources to aid victims of Hurricane Katrina? After I was able to overcome my feeling of horror and disgust that you would suggest denying the Individual his Freedom, I successfully rebutted your point by observing that A equals A, therefore it logically follows that the so called victims should fend for themselves and not depend on the altruism of collectivists. Rather than daring to challenge this impenetrable logic, you simply dismissed my comments by calling me an asshole. Were I a petty collectivist, I might have taken offense at that remark. However, I am a noble Individual and know that your hurtful words were motivated by your envy of my superior intellect. For it is individuals such as I who propel society forward.

"Um...the Individual's freedom should be regarded as...um...Egoism is the one true...um...er...what was it we were talking about, Ella?"

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

55. Fantastic!

:toast:

Add a few swords and some magic, and you've just written Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. Randism in a fantasy setting. I'm not kidding.

[ismnotwasm]

57. LOL

Not bad. Not bad at all.
(And I have read her books)

[Magrittes Pipe]

70. .

:thumbsup: :yourock:

[NorthernSpy]

73. LOL!

:rofl:

[Stockholm]

76. ROFL!!

:applause:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

79. I recommended this thread because of THIS.

:rofl:

[Coexist]

82. wow - nailed it.

You could randomly tear out 300 pages of Atlas Shrugged and still have too much unnecessary speechifying in that book.

[Dora]

84. Made my day, hughly !!!!11!!!!!!!1!!!!1!!!!1!! n/t

[dogfacedboy]

85. Maybe you have a future writing Ayn Rand novels! LOL!!!!

[myrna minx]

92. Damn-you get a lollipop!

:yourock:

[Blue_Tires]

100. post of the week!!!!! n/t

[MuseRider]

103. Just perfect!

I had to add my recommendation as well. Wonderful.

[Junkdrawer]

104. You poor baby. Someone made you read Ayn Rand, didn't they...

My sympathies...

[Raster]

106. Post 52 is THE redeeming quality of this thread. very well done.

The angst, the tedium. The boredom. NAILED IT!

[dretceterini]

109. The names may have been changed

to protect the no-so-innocent..

[minorl]

110. Definately not literature. Political discourse...maybe? Rigid manifesto

definately.

[yowzayowzayowza]

111. Thx.

I've been giggling er the last hour over this one.

[ComerPerro]

117. Briliant post. You summed up exactly why I despise Rand

and the FReepers who worship her.

[ComerPerro]

118. I hope you don't mind, but I had to link to this on my blog.

I gave you credit.

I just had to. That was too perfect.

[Telly Savalas]

119. Not at all.

It makes me really happy that people are enjoying it.

Although I'm kicking myself for not somehow working in that Brazilian joke.

[unblock]

120. this is the funniest thing i've seen in a loooong time!

absolutely wonderful!

[jbm]

123. this is one of those, "man I wish I could write like that!" posts!

I'm adding another another 'recommend' to this thread!

[bread_and_roses]

126. oh, I laughed till I cried over that one....fantastic! (n/t)

[The Minus World]

129. The Pied Piper of Libertarianism

Wonderful post!

That is, I think, the final word on the real-world applicability of Ayn Rand's adulterated concepts of human interaction.

Ms. Rand's philosophy; her general aversion to even the most fundamental molecules of goodness in people (e.g. altruism, collectivism) is little more than an enforced doctrine of disingenuity and arrogance. It is packaged as an examined world-view, and marketed to those who seek reaffirmation that their own pathologies are intellectually justifiable.

[redredwine]

130. What an absolutely PERFECT satire

Good GAWD, I read 'Atlas Shrugged' on recommendation from a friend. Complete waste of 3 evenings/nights. You should write satire for a living if you don't already. I'd buy it. (by the time the 3rd diatribe/soliloquy hit, I was definitely skimming hence it only taking 3 evenings to read) :puke:

[NMMNG]

131. Bwahahahaha

That is just too dead on, and completely hysterical. :rofl: Did you write that yourself?

[readmoreoften]

53. A fake philosopher and pseudo-intellectual. n/t

[MisterP]

60. Neitzscheians from Andromeda!

[tinrobot]

61. These looters do not follow Ayn Rand

I read tons of Ayn Rand as a youth. She was very much a capitalist, but she advocated a very pure form of capitalism, which means zero government interference on both the side of the consumer and the side of business. She wrote as many essays against government supporting businesses through tax breaks and subsidies as she wrote essays about the welfare state.

The current administration is a classic case of looting as depicted in Atlas Shrugged. Ayn Rand would not support the rampant cronyism and corporate welfare seen in today's government.

Our current crop of looters are much more akin to James Taggart, who derived his power in Atlas Shrugged through political connections than John Galt, the book's hero (who ultimately brought down the likes of Mr. Taggert).

I don't particularly see eye to eye with Ms Rand these days, but she did make a few good points.

[glitch]

114. I wonder what Ayn would think of her protege Alan Greenspan. nt

[Ron Green]

62. I went through an Ayn Rand phase when I was about 19, as did many people

I know. I've gone 'way beyond THAT kind of thinking, I hope to God.

[degreesofgray]

63. Ayn Rand was

an awful novelist who spawned a following of freakish dolts, not to be confused with L. Ron Hubbard...

[Kerrytravelers]

64. A sucky writer.

And if the collective opinion of DU doesn't qualify enough for you... then my MA with a duel emphasis in Screenplay and Fiction from the Professioanl Writing Program at USC will hav to be sufficiant... along with my BA in Journalism from USC... I think that wil be sufficient.

She sucks... big elephant balls... big ones!

[curt_b]

65. A useful book on Rand & Greenspan

You might want to look at SMU economist Raveendra Batra’s book:
“Greenspan's fraud : how two decades of his policies have undermined the global economy”, Palgrave Macmillan, 2005

In it he traces some of the influences of Rand’s “free market” outlook on Greenspan’s cynical trade and fiscal policies. It’s a good overview of the impact of US economic policy in the Greenspan era.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. A writer of economic bodice rippers posing as philosophy.

She is to literature (or philosophy) what Britney Spears is to acting.

[marshall]

69. Ayn Rand = Margaret Sanger

Rand was pro choice in the same sense Margaret Sanger was--as a means of getting rid of the lower classes.

[Finder]

89. Unfair to Sanger...

that is how she was demonized. Sanger wanted to free women from poverty imposed by childbirth. Her work in healthcare, particularly for women, is unprecedented. She knew women forced to have 10 children could never crawl out of poverty and birth control would be the first step to solving the problems.

[marshall]

98. In context

Sanger did many wonderful things in her life, but like Thomas Jefferson and others of our past heroes and heroines, she was a product of her times. Were she alive today she undoubtedly would NOT have the same attitudes about race that she did have. Put her attitudes in a modern context and you have Bill Bennett.

Similarly, Ayn Rand is a product of her time and to fully appreciate her you need to see her in context.

[Finder]

102. Both are applicable to today, IMO...

As I stated in an earlier post, Rand is still part of school curriculums and Sanger is still a role model to the reproductive rights movement. Both women were ahead of their times if anything. The same can be said for TJ as well on many topics.

As far as context, it appears only a few on this thread have ever actually read or studied Rand.

[txaslftist]

71. Fuel for the masturbatory fantasies of young nazis.

[NorthernSpy]

72. "Wasn't 'Ayn Rand' a pseudonym of L. Ron Hubbard?" -- Mike Huben

And that's pretty much what I've always thought of her myself. She was a writer of the most godawful fiction and the leader of her own cult of dorks.

The Randists worship genius, strength, courage, and beauty. I've yet to meet one who showed any evidence whatsoever of possessing any of those qualities.

:eyes:

[dogfacedboy]

77. No. She wasn't L.Ron Hubbard.

It's possible Hubbard was a fan, though.

[NorthernSpy]

95. oh, I should think Mike Huben knows that...

He was making a point about her worldview and the cultish aspects of "Objectivism".


(edit: typo)

[dogfacedboy]

80. The lyrics to RUSH'S "2112" album

are based on a Rand story. I believe I read somewhere, though, that RUSH drummer/lyricist Neil Peart has said he now thinks of that time in his writing as rubbish.

[apnu]

90. I've met a fair number of people who thought...

Rand's writing was 'brilliant' and then later thought it was 'rubbish'

She's sorta like Pink Floyd in that sense -- a right of passage for teenagers in my expirence.

[JVS]

83. You need to distiguish better between your RWers

Ayn Rand is really more appealing to radical Libertarians. She doesn't have a following among the Guns, pick-up trucks, and Jesus crowd. She has her following among the Guns, computer porn and low taxes crowd.

[Finder]

86. I think her books are essential...

reading for anyone who wants to succeed in business. My teen son is currently studying her and her books are part of most high school business curriculums. Like others noted, her philosophy is not right wing but it is definitely capitalistic. I think her fictional approach to objectivism was brilliant and enlightening. Her characters were based on human nature and as someone noted can be projected to current players.

I do think a lot of people dismiss her because of preconceived notions of what the philosophy is and who they feel "worships" her.

[Protagoras]

94. The problem isn't who Ayn Rand was...

so few people bother to read this novelist (not philosopher...that's giving her too much credit).

The problem is the IDEA of who Ayn Rand is. We can all rush out and read her works (yeah yeah I've read Anthem, Atlas Shrugged, The Virtue of selfishness...all back in college and thought...hmmm...Nietzsche did it better.) None of them will really give us insight into what appeals to the RWingers.

They love her for the sound bites of her...not the HER.

Same could be said of the Bible. RWingers LOVE the BIBLE...every single "carefully selected, taken out of context" word of it.

They don't give a flip for the New Testament...they care for the IDEA of it...an idea not based on reading or understanding...but on the illusion that it supports their immediate goals.

It gives them the thin veneer of an appeal to authority. Ayn Rand (Adam Smith, Leo Strauss, yadda yadda) lets them claim something which, while inaccurate and shallow on many levels, impresses the uninformed as substantial.

Remember always, it's not about what was ACTUALLY said...or more importantly what was ACTUALLY intended...it's about what serves to gratify that immediate impulse. It's about instant self gratification for these people.

They are all dry drunks (ok many not so dry)...drunk on power, drunk on greed, drunk on self righteousness.

And we've made a giant movement of them in this culture.

[bonzotex]

127. right on! History, Novels, The Bible, The Constitution....

Right wingers only pick the parts they like and ignore the rest. Especially if it contradicts their interpretation of the part they like.
Conservatism is fundamentally anti-intellectual. The Buschco Neocon version goes beyond that into a nebulous world of anti-thought where even actual thoughts are sucked into a swirling black hole of nonsense.

[minkyboodle]

99. one of the many ugly facets of her philosophy

" < The Native Americans > didn't have any rights to the land and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and were not using.... What was it they were fighting for, if they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their "right" to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or maybe a few caves above it. Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."
-Q and A session following her Address To The Graduating Class Of The United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, March 6, 1974

but if you are young and at the top of the class structure she can do wonders for your ego apparently.... Ugh I read "The Fountainhead" to try to get with a girl way back in the day, it was enough to send me running in the other direction.

[dretceterini]

107. I find her interesting

because of the fact she was so vehimently anti-socialist and anti-communist, yet an athiest. You also must put the context of her writings to what was happening in the world when she wrote them.

[AlienGirl]

124. That's why I read it, too, and it didn't work. nt

[Zynx]

112. She embodies the values of the true base of the Republican Party.

The true base of the Republican Party is the business community that basically believes "Fuck you. I got mine, you don't deserve my help. Go pull yourself up by your bootstraps and make $100 million.". They share nasty social Darwinistic views and are generally purely materialistic and utilitarian. The difference is that the right-wing businessmen claim to be religious, usually mainline Protestant or establishment Catholic, whereas Ayn Rand was a committed atheist.

[Joe Chi Minh]

113. A psychopath.

And ipso facto, an idiot. Being of a cerebral cast of mind just intensified her idiocy, since reason is primordially a function of the heart. Pascal knew a thing or two.

[McCamy Taylor]

115. She believed all action is motivated by self interest.

RWers only obey God to get into Heaven (self interest) not because they believe in doing good for the sake of doing good. That is for liberal do-gooders in their world view.

[Drewskie]

116. I liked Anthem it was a fine book but could'nt make it through

Atlas Shrugged.

[mitchum]

121. A talentless hack who suffered under the delusion that since...

she wasn't pretty, she must be smart. She was neither.
Bad novelist, bad philosopher, bad person.

[MissWaverly]

125. She was an author who glorified individual vs tainted society

I read her book Atlas Shrugged, she made a big deal about buildings
with numbers on top of them, which related to that old cliche, "your
number is up." She hits your over the head a dozen times to make her
point, maybe that's where they got their talking points from.