The voting machines are rigged, a conspiracy theory.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

I want to address a conspiracy theory that is prevalent throughout the DU community.

A lot of people espouse the fact that the voting machines were and are rigged. Or that the "election was stolen." I am tired of this shit. I am tired of being demoralized. Everytime I remark upon an election result, there is always someone who says,"the machines were rigged." Everytime someone makes a comment that Kerry lost because of bad campiagning, there is someone who always says, "he didn't lose, the machines were rigged." I am tired of this shit.

I cannot believe that the people in my own party are trying to oppress us. These conspiracy theorists are trying to stop us from voting. These same people are trying to stop us from participating in the electoral process. Everytime I make the comment that we should try harder next time in the elections, there is always someone who says, "who cares the elections are rigged." Everytime I say that we should register more people to vote, there is always someone who says, "that doesn't matter because the voting machines are rigged." I am tired of this shit.

These conspiracy theorist are trying to disenfranchise us. They are trying to place the burden of responsibility on some abstract idea.I am tired of this shit. The only way we can win is if we accept that we lost fair and square and that we have to try harder. Instead these theorist argue that we don't need to try harder because the voting machines are rigged.

I will not let some group of conspiracy theorists hijack the party. I will not let you disenfranchise me. I will not let you stop me for campaigning for my candidates. I will not let you stop me from voting.

I am tired of your shit.

[ret5hd]

1. sorry to tell you...

the voting machines WERE rigged.

if yu let that stop you from voting...well, that's your problem.

[Silverhair]

2. Applause.

:applause:

[havocmom]

3. O-key Dokey -You are the master of your own fate. Uh huh.

:popcorn:

[Marr]

4. If a foreign election had exit polling that far off, it'd be universally

condemned as a rigged election.

It couldn't have been any more obvious if you were paying attention. Christ- just a couple weeks after our last Presidential election was that crisis in the Ukraine. Everyone- from our federal governments on down to the BBC- was in agreement that the Ukrainian vote had been rigged. The evidence? Exit polls.

[Cocoa]

18. wrong: Venezuela

Hugo Chavez's opposition produced exit polls showing Chavez losing by some ridiculous margin, and they also claim he stole the vote with voting machines.

[Marr]

29. Their exit polling wasn't credible.

It was an untransparent exit poll conducted by an interested party. The poll was commissioned by the opposition, IIRC- and was difficult to take seriously- even by our right-of-center media.

[Cocoa]

43. easily rationalized

the RW has come up with statistical studies by professors from prestigious institutions declaring that it's impossible that Chavez one. Pure pseudoscience that resembles the BBV pseudoscience to a remarkable degree.

[ramblin_dave]

44. Luckily they had a paper trail and were able

to audit the results.

[Cocoa]

50. also easily rationalized

they just trashed Jimmy Carter and said he was in on it.

The BBVers can do the same thing no matter what the facts are. They can ALWAYS come up with a response. Their secret is they don't care about facts, they have the "truth" on their side. They have "I believe." They have "kicked and nominated."

[kster]

57. delete

believe it was rigged,we have hundreds of new websites born since the 2004 election about the vote stealing machines, Carter baker commission barred American voters from attending, the media not just one but 100% of the media is silent even though there are millions of us that believe the 2004 election was stolen and want and deserve answers or at least media time on the subject, The Government with the exception of a few are completely silent on the vote stealing machines.

What part are you having trouble with?

[OrwellwasRight]

Nevertheless,

Are you advocating that we accept the inevitability of paperless, unauditable voting?

I agree with the OP in this sense: Kerry's campaign did suck, we do need to try harder, and we do need to register voters.

As a related, but distinct issue, we must fight for fairer elections and voting machines. Otherwise all the improvements in the world might be for naught.

It is not necessarily about what is the "truth" of the election (because, without a paper trail we can't know), nor is it about whether we "believe" the last last election was stolen, but about working to assure that no future election can be stolen and giving people enough faith in the system that they don't feel voting is a waste of time.

Even if BBV theories are without any merit and Diebold is on the up ad up (an unlikely scenario IMHO), the RW has won if the BBV frustrates people and suppresses the vote. Vote suppression always hurts the Dems, so we must work to combat even the appearance of rigged elections. In that sense, I agree with those the OP condemns.

[OrwellwasRight]

53. I love your sig line. nt.

[Atman]

5. Rah Rah Rah. But the voting machines were rigged.

No amount of cheerleading is going to change it. No one is trying to disenfranchise you. THAT is a conspiracy theory, dude, and a very weak one. Were trying to RE-ENFRANCHISE the entire country, whose voice has been muted by BushCo's entanglement with Diebold, ESS and Sequoia. You really, really need to do some more research and connect a few dots.

Go vote. Vote until your fingers bleed. But two weeks before the next election, when Bush hands out free kittens and candy to America and a Gallup poll announces an amazing 10-point leap in the GOP fortunes -- miraculously to within a couple points of the MOE -- watch as the pundits start all over again with the "it's too close to call!" and republicans hold on to all their seats. And once again, you guys will be saying, "Well gosh, I guess we just didn't run a good campaign!"

[Junkdrawer]

38. Yep. Last election we had people waiting in 9 hour lines to vote...

and they still "mysteriously" won.

Maybe if we lined them up 11 hours deep that would do it...

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. hmm them pesky back doors with the GEMS database I know

[radwriter0555]

79. Exactly. The voting machines are owned by the republicans. The voting

process itself is owned by the republicans.

We know they cheated, we know they lied. We know they stole the last 2 elections for scores of reasons. It only takes 1 question to know they stole the last 2 elections;

Why do republicans oppose paper trail voting?

Don't like it? Go ahead and vote and tell us who wins the next elections.. and for the record, in my crystal ball, Bill Frist is your next president.

You won't vote for him, but he's your next president.

This isn't a conspiracy theory, this is fact. This is life under a bush.

[driver8]

114. Great effin' post , Atman!

Anyone who thinks that these companies are not deciding the outcome of our elections hasn't been paying attention.

When the head of one of these companies says openly that he wants to ensure a victory for Bush in Ohio, how much more proof do you need that something is not right??

Democracy is dead in America unless we get rid of these "voting" machines.

[KaryninMiami]

6. It's not a theory by the way. It's a fact. They were rigged.

And they will do it again if we don't keep demanding a verifable form of voting. It's not about an abstract idea-- it's a FACT. Between the rigging of the electronic machines and the disenfranchisement of millions of voters- they stole the election. We do need to try harder and keep yelling and demanding that every vote count in the way the voter had intended.

We will have opti-scans in Miami Dade next year-- a battle hard fought. Not the best option- but it's a step in the right direction.

[texpatriot2004]

92. Well said.

:applause: :applause:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

7. I understand your frustration with "Doesn't matter. Diebold stole it."

posts.

However, both elections were irrefutably stolen. Sucks.

[texpatriot2004]

93. Yep, that's the truth of it. n/t

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AntiFascist]

9. Many of the voting systems were rigged

Don't let this type of thinking stop us from fixing them!

[Boredtodeath]

10. If you don't believe it, why does it bother you so?

Hey, if there's nothing to it, all you have to do is ignore it.

It's only demoralizing if you believe it.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

11. Because...

it not only demoralizes me, but other people. Like I said I won't let you disenfranchise my party

[texpatriot2004]

94. And I won't let you disenfranchise me with your denial. n/t

[applegrove]

12. There is much reason to believe voter suppression took place. I

happen not to believe the diebold machines were played with. Much annecdotal information on other forms of voter suppression in some ridings like "too few" machines.

I think we all come together when we say we need to win the congress back in 2006 so that voter transparency laws can be put into place.

I agree that different views result in and will result in argument when it comes time for us to get out and work in the next elections.

I worry what happens if someone who believes the machines were absolutely fooled with goes out to work with someone who doesn't believe it.

So thanks for bringing this up. Cause we need to work it out - an understanding - before the next election.

I think in the end we will agree to disagree. Until there is clear evidence one way or the other on votes being stolen from machines en mass.

There are many other types of voter suppression we should be focussing on too. But let's agree that transparency should be a goal for all of us.

And we should be helping each other through apathy and our differences.

Too many Dems stay home & don't vote.. because it is hard for a single mom or someone without a car to vote.

[applegrove]

13. The issue of low turnouts in American elections is very important

and hardly mentioned. America's turnout rate is much worse than anyone else in the western world is it not?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

14. I agree

And I'm afraid that these conspiracy theories will decrease turnout MORE.

There are more important things to discuss. Like the the disenfranchisement of blacks from voting. and etc.

[applegrove]

17. We need a plan for "that moment" when Dems decide at the last moment

not to vote.

Be it leaked exit poll, apathy due to belief that vote will not count, lack of financial ability to hire babysitter, long lines, mean ID verifiers, rain, snow, etc.

We need people to write a little mantra or mission statement. And carry it around with them the weeks leading up to the election. How they feel about their country and the role of government. Who they love. How they don't expect to get exactly what they want in any government.. but hope to get part of what they need.

Then when you are in a line up - they can trade with the people they are beside. When that mean ID checker tries to make them feel small - they can "share".

I don't know really. Just an idea.

[left is right]

37. I have repeatedly said

that every Democrat needs to note the time of day. the polling place and the voting machine as they cast their vote and then they need to email this information to their local headquarters. Put in the subject line I voted for... Include your legal name and address. Create a paper trail any way that you can. If they get enough emails election fraud can be proved.

And for all you, who jump on the issue of the sanctity of the secret ballot--you are absolutely right but better the whole world knows how you voted than to risk that your vote will be stolen. And besides, I figure we will only have to prove massive fraud just one time.

[AntiFascist]

20. So all the "back doors" into some of the tabulator systems are ok?

We'll just trust people to do the right thing, after all the Republicans who control the voting machine companies must be trustworthy, like all Republicans are.

You really need to review the volumes of evidence before you come to the assumption that this can be "worked out." In the races that are not close then this may be less of an issue, but in the races that are close one simple flip and the fix is in.

[applegrove]

27. Anyone who builds anything with software builds a way for there

to be linkages. Actually, anyone in business builds in backwards & forward linkages. These are economic terms. You don't sell running shoes and go for only the non-fashionable ones. You link to the trends.

So it would not be out of the ordinary for a business to try and build in chances at more business.. like say the tabulating to be done somewhere other than the local poll.

I is curious that you would build a voting machine and not put "isolated & secure" software as part of the deal. I think the GOP plays up the "fear of new technology" same as they play up any other fear that divides Dems and wedges them more freepers.

Part of the problem with American elections is that your congressmen have elections every 2 years and that you vote on judges and legislation. These are problems in that they are very expensive to have elections. So a state legislature would be interested in doing things to cut down cost -like computers.

In Canada - in an election you are only ever voting for one person. And that is it. And it happens sometimes only every 5 years federally & provincially. So elections are simple and straightforward.

No doubt the GOP uses the complexity of American elections to encourage a certain amount of fear.

Look for the GOP to not be solving the "transparency in elections" issue any time soon. "Problem solvers" MY ***!

[bearfan454]

15. The voting machines are rigged

They are and I will not stop saying it.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

16. I will fight you

I won't let you stop me from voting. I won't let you stop me from participating ftom the election process.

[Bushknew]

22. see post 5

[Melissa G]

47. ROTFLMAO!!! PTBL you are TOOO Funny! How exactly are folks

who are working for Election transparency and accurate vote counts attempting to disenfranchise you???
HILARRIOUS..Most of us fighting this Election fraud fight spent weeks and weeks registering bunches of folks to vote, worked on Dem campaigns and GOTV efforts and so much more...but our next biggest cause is now demoralizing you and your imaginary buds and trying to prevent you all from voting???? Tooo FUNNNY!!!:rofl:

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

52. Do you honestly believe...

...people are trying to discourage you from voting? Don't you think they might just be trying to call attention to what they view as the single biggest problem standing between us and getting our democracy back: a crooked election system? Why would they want you not to vote? Are you saying they're GOP freepers out to demoralize the opposition? Visit Blackbox.org with an open mind and do some reading. The machines were definitely rigged, and let me hasten to add that you and I and every other DUer should ALWAYS vote in EVERY election!

[OrwellwasRight]

68. How is Bearfan's comment

stopping you from voting though? Why do you interpret his/her comments as intending to stop you from participating? :shrug:

Won't more people participate if they trust the system? So don't we want to work to make it worthy of trust?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

75. The voting machines aren't rigged

By perpetuating that they are rigged you are making voters discouraged.For example a conspiracy theorist tells a friend, "did you know that the voting machines are rigged?" The friend becomes convinced and doesn't vote because he thinks, "whats the use of voting if the voting machines are rigged." Conspiracy theorists are perpetuating a false theory that the voting machines are rigged. By doing this they are disenfranchising our base.

[PowerToThePeople]

78. The voting machines are rigged

By perpetuating that they aren't rigged you are stopping voters from insisting their votes are counted fairly.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

81. by insisting...

that this conspiracy theory is true you are disenfranchising our base from voting and a participating in the political process

[Kailassa]

85. Why post on this thread

if you are not prepared to at least try to learn from the people kind enough to be spending their time answering you?

[PowerToThePeople]

86. No, voters stop themselves from voting.

I do not try to stop anyone from voting. Either does anyone else on this board. By insisting this is only a "conspiracy theory" you are saying we should not investigate these companies, their programs, or insist on a traceable vote trail. IMO, you are the one doing our cause harm, not those insisting on traceable votes.

[Chi]

87. Some reading material

"GEMS Central Tabulator Vote Database Vote Modification"
http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/bulletins/SB04-252.html#diebold

"EVIDENCE OF ELECTION IRREGULARITIES IN
SNOHOMISH COUNTY, WASHINGTON
GENERAL ELECTION, 20041"
http://www.votersunite.org/info/SnohomishElectionFraudInvestigation.pdf

"Lucas County Board of Elections - Results of investigation following
November 2004 General Election"
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/electionsvoter/lucas/LucasCountyInvestigationReport.pdf

[helderheid]

88. WAKE UP

[OrwellwasRight]

91. You are making a few logical leaps here.

First, your theory assumes that said "friend" did not already believe the system was stacked against her and would have voted before this purported conversation. This is not necessarily the case. There are more non-voters than voters in this country and that is not a recent phenomena. People, particularly people on the lower half of the economic scale, have historically be turned off and tuned out to voting, so the hypothetical friend may have not done anything differently at all.

Second, your theory ends with the statement, "did you know the voting machines are rigged." This is not only a logical leap, but not realistic. The conversation would most likely continue with "What do you mean? Why do you say that?" An explanation would ensue, and the hypothetical conspiracy theorist you posit would be likely to say, "So you need to get involved so we can change things and show the Republicans that we are not sheeple that can be herded into their little web of deceit."

Plenty of folks have posted links that, if they do not "prove" BBV machines are rigged, at least present a case that they could be. I'll add another source: http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Citizens_Request_Recount_IN_SAN_DIEGO_MAYO_0818.html

Also, please read the Greg Palast book The Best Democracy Money Can Buy and read his website regularly.

Now that I have backed myself up and put some facts on the table, I would like to point out that you have not done the same. Post after post in this thread has presented evidence that may not prove, but does indicate, that there are problems with BBV and it is not to be trusted.

Yet you say that these statements are a "false theory" without presenting any evidence that they are false. I am interested to know how you justify saying that something is false when you make no attempt to back up the statement with any evidence or facts of your own. Just because we cannot prove something to a certainty does not mean it is false. Think theory of evolution or acquittal of OJ.

Lastly, you state that "{I am} making voters discouraged" and that "they are disenfranchising our base." Nothing could be further from the truth. You clearly have no idea what my stance is or how I approach the issue. I don't discourage people. I explain why they need to be involved now more than ever and why each election is a brand new chance to do something that will shock the power structure (e.g. have a big voter turnout that can't be put down). I am not disenfranchising anyone, and I think your theory that anyone who cares about BBV is disenfranchising anyone has little basis in logic or fact.

See also my post to Cocoa above to learn that the fight against BBV and the fight to improve the campaign are not mutually exclusive.

G'night.

[applegrove]

19. There is anecdotal evidence of voting machines giving wrong choices

on both sides. There is yet to be evidence of massive vote stealing.

The theories are based on exit polls and after polls. The first have been proven wrong in many races in 2004 and curiously..in many elections Bush was in over the years.. Texas too. And Exit polls have been wrong in ridings where there is no diebold.

After polls are representative of the whole population rather than the 65% who actually vote.

There just are not cold hard facts on massive vote stealing through fixed software in voting machines.

But the whole thing is a mess and it is normal to not trust people who don't deserve trust - because they do do sneaky things.

[Bonobo]

23. Self-edited. Wrong reply...

[Dangerously Amused]

21. They are being cynical, not sincere.

Honey, ain't nobody here trying to disenfranchise anybody else. I'm pretty sure the people who make those comments to you are cynically expressing their frustration rather than making a sincere attempt to convince you or anyone else to not vote.

But you make a good point: We all of us need to campaign our hearts out anyway, and get the message out anyway, every single election, whether the votes are rigged or not, whether we can prove it or not.

But, um, yeah. The elections WERE rigged. There is ample proof for those who seek it. And along with campaigning our hearts out, we need to raise hell about the fraudulent voting matter as well.

[dave502d]

24. The poles are rigged, a conspiracy theory.n/t

[Mnemosyne]

25. Check this out and see it with your own eyes.

It was done in 2000.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/fixed1.htm

I keep voting because it is my right.

[gulfcoastliberal]

76. Powerful. Open the fucking source codes. Demand it. Make them do it.

Open their hideous machines and pull out their filthy roots. Expose it to the world if it's all clear. Make them fucking accountable.

:grr:

[libnnc]

26. no one's oppressing you but the GOP

and your own stubborn self.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

30. Are you denying...

that people are saying the voting machines are rigged?

[libnnc]

34. no they were rigged in my opinion

I'm just not a "coincidence theorist". Got too much appalachian common sense for that naive shit.

Not only were the machines rigged in Ohio, but the vote was supressed--folks waiting in line for over 8 hours to vote in certain neighborhoods, others being run around from precinct to precinct on wild goose chases to find their correct polling station, old folks being told "dont forget to vote" on the wong day...come on.

Enough with the name calling. We're too old for this shit. What's your problem with verified paper ballots? That would shut down this conversation completely.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

39. well

I have no problems with a paper trail, but conspiracy theorist take an extra step and say that the voting machines are rigged.

[libnnc]

40. I'm not a conspiracy theorist

you're naive

wanna keep the name calling? fine

[ProudToBeLiberal]

59. ummm

I did not personally call you a conspiracy theorist

[libnnc]

60. you implied it and this whole thread is flamebait

but I think you know that already

[ProudToBeLiberal]

61. speaking the truth is flamebait

I'm sorry if I believe in the first amendment.

[libnnc]

67. its your opinion. its not truth

just like my opinion is not truth

it is my opinion that YOUR opinion is naive

edit to add

my opinion is based on fact
your opinion is based on prejudice

I'm done with this thread. If you feel demorialized its your own fault for giving up. You have no one to blame but yourself and no amount of namecalling, fingerpointing, rah-rahing will change that. You wanna vote? Knock your fucking self out. Vote until the cows come home but don't blatantly discredit those here who have read about and witnessed shady dealings at the polls.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

69. oh

so voting machines being rigged is your opinion and not truth. I see

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

73. thanks for your opinion. nt

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

64. Not a paper trail, but...

...read the post below from a DU thread that appeared shortly after the November '04 election and tell me you don't think the machines were rigged.

-----------------------------------------------------

This was a reply in an Ohio forum thread posted by DU newcomer WhiteKnight1. It's very interesting, and I want to
give it its' own thread here so more people are aware of
it.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ... /*About me:I have a graduate degree in computer
science, and more than 15 years of experience as a software engineer working with highly reliable systems.I have a
knack for looking at the results of software failures and figuring out what's wrong with the code. For now, I prefer to
remain anonymous and will go by the handle: WhiteKnight(email: [e-mail] ).About the
bizzare vote counts in one Ohio Precinct:After seeing the Associated Press story titled "Machine Error Gives Bush
Extra Ohio Votes", I started thinking about the numbers reported in the story, whichare:Votes for Bush: 4258Votes
for Kerry: 260 Total number of voters: 638It also says that Bush "actually received 365 votes". That means there
must have been 13 votes for other candidates (638-260-365 = 13).I wondered how this result could have been
produced. They called it a "failure", but I know a lot about how systems can fail, and this sounded fishy. Why were
Kerry's vote totals recorded properly, but not Bush's? It's much more likely that a system failure would cause either
no vote totals to be recorded at all, or that both totals would be corrupted.I suppose it could have been a hardware
failure that occurred right after Kerry's vote total had been written to storage, and just as Bush's was being written.
But that's likely to be a very narrow time window. It's possible, but sounds like a very rare failure mode. It just seems
odd that out of the whole universe of possible failures, we get a failure that records Kerry's votes correctly, and
corrupts Bush's total.Think of it this way: In basketball you know there are many ways a shot can fail to go in. It can
go off the glass and miss, it can bounce off the front of the rim, rattle out, airball etc... etc... But there is one
particular failed shot that's very rare: when the ball comes in at just the right trajectory with just the right speed, and
it lodges between the rim and the backboard - just sticks there. I've seen it happen maybe a couple of times in
years of watching the NBA.So think of the odds of a failure that records Kerry's votes correctly, but corrupts Bush's
as analogous to the ball jamming there between the rim and backboard. Pretty rare failure huh? Well, it gets even
worse:Why was the number off by only several thousand?If the votes are added up using a 4 byte unsigned integer,
then the possible values range from 0 to 4,294,967,296 (over 4 Billion). If a random bit error or hardware storage
error occurred, then why didn't Bush get say 3,239,568 extra votes in this particular "failure"? Most true failures
would result in some wild number that you would immediately recognize as garbage.The analogy here is: not only
did the basketball lodge between rim and glass, but the Spalding logo ended up perfectly horizontal, aligned front
and center.Given all of this, I decided to explore ways that vote counting software could end up with these particular
results. Was someone adding a percentage to the Bush votes? Was there some multiplier involved? After thinking
about it for an hour or so, I decided to take a different tack: think like the person who is trying to rig the election.
What would you do? You wouldn't really want to change the total number of voters. That might be too easy to detect
given people being checked off on voter roles. Instead you would want to shift votes from one candidate to another.
Maybe every 10th vote for kerry, you'd instead give to Bush.OK, that's pretty easy to program, but it wouldn't expain
the bizzare results in this one precinct in Ohio. But... what if the evil programmer made a mistake? Maybe one line of
code had an error they didn't catch. I decided to write a small vote counting program, and add in a function to steal
every 10th vote. Once that was working I'd introduce a small error and see if the results came close the Ohio results
reported by AP.The program below is the result. As you will see, there is one line of code that is supposed to add a
stolen vote to Bush's total, and should be written as:b = b + 1; but (I theorize) it was mis-typed as:b = b + k; So
instead of adding one stolen vote to Bush's total, it adds the running total of Kerry votes to Bush's total. Whoops!
The output from the program with the typo in place is:starting electionElection results: b: 4258 k: 260 o: 13(the
actual votes: b: 336 k: 288 o: 14)The output from the program with the typo corrected is:starting election Election
results: b: 365 k: 260 o: 13 (the actual votes: b: 336 k: 288 o: 14)So the intent was to shift 29 votes from other
candidates to Bush, but the one-line programming mistake gives him an extra 3922 votes.I'm not saying this proves
that this is what happened, but it does indeed prove that a small, one-line programming error by an evildoer
programmer could produce the results seen in this one Ohio precinct.-WhiteKnightp.s. Please circulate this as far
and wide as possible. Thanks!*/#include <stdio.h>#include <string.h>// Vote totals for b=Bush k=Kery o=Otherint
b=0, k=0, o=0;// The set of "real" books:int breal=0, kreal=0, oreal=0;//// Here's the hypothetical "patch" that the
evildoer programmer// might have written://void robOhio(int creal, int* c) {// Look for every 10th vote from this
candidate:if ((creal % 10)==0) {// OK, here's the bug. Should have been// b = b + 1;// Give the vote to bb = b + k; //
Take it away from other candidate c = *c - 1;}}int main() {char votes<1000>;//// Here are the votes in a hypothetical
order that I made up.// So in this example, the first two votes went to Kerry, the// next two to Bush, then one for Kery,
one for Bush, one for // Other, and so on.//// The order of the votes does affect the final numbers but,// even if you
change the order, the rough order of magnetude// of the bogus results stays about the same.////0 1 2 3 4
5//12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890strcpy(votes,"KKBBKBOKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBK
BBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
50strcat(votes,"KKBBKBKKOBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKOBKKBKKBKKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
100strcat(votes,"KKBBKBBKBKKKBBKBBKBBKKBOKBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
150strcat(votes,"KKBKKBBKKBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBOKKBKKKBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
200strcat(votes,"KKBKBBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKKBKBBKBOKKKBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
250strcat(votes,"KKBBKBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBOKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
300strcat(votes,"KKKBKBBKBBKKKBKBKKBBKKBKKOKKBKKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
350strcat(votes,"KKBKKBBKBBKKBBKKBKBOKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
400strcat(votes,"KKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
450strcat(votes,"BKKBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
500strcat(votes,"KKKBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKBKKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
550strcat(votes,"KKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBBKKKKKBBKBKKKBOKBBKBBKKBBKBBKBB"); //
600strcat(votes,"KKBBKBBKBBKKBBKBBKOBKOBKKBOKBOKKBBKBBK"); // 638printf("starting election\n");// Start
counting votes:for (int i=0; i<strlen(votes); i++) {char v = votes;if (v=='B') {b = b + 1;breal = breal + 1; } else if
(v=='K') {k = k + 1;kreal = kreal + 1;// This is not a vote for b, so steal some votes:robOhio(kreal, &k);} else if
(v=='O') {o = o + 1;oreal = oreal + 1; // This is not a vote for b, so steal some votes:robOhio(oreal,
&o);}}printf("Election results: b: %d k: %d o: %d\n",b,k,o);printf("(the actual votes: b: %d k: %d o:
%d)\n",breal,kreal,oreal);}

-------------------------------------------------------------------

[bpilgrim]

28. "The voting machines MAY be rigged, a conspiracy theory."

that is the NONstory, thus far...

fyi: keep digging & voting, no matter what :bounce:


more...
http://GlobalFreePress.com

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[OnionPatch]

31. I understand the frustration

but it doesn't mean it's not true. It is true that if we don't do everything we can to turn this around, our votes are not going to mean much.

BUT, I don't like it either when people get all gloom and doom and try to tell us all it's worthless to talk about campaign strategy and so on. No matter what, we need to be developing strategy and getting out the vote. We should always be looking to the next election and solidifying our message. I think it's totally necessary to do this at the same time as we are working to reform elections. We have to do both of these things and if we do .....We are going to kick a**!!!!:kick:

[Cleita]

32. From an accounting point of view, not having a source document

or double entry on the voting machines invites fraud. It's just tooeasy to rig an election that way. Never would your stores conduct business on their cash registers like we do our voting machines and no bank would conduct business on their ATM's likewise.

The fact that the voting machine results can't be verified by a manual count is very sloppy accounting and would of course invite the unscrupulous to take advantage of them.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

33. I was a volunteer prior to Nov 2, 2004

During this time period I talked alot of Kerry supporters into voting. They didn't want to because they felt their vote didn't count. They felt the election was going to be stolen. I convinced them otherwise. I thought the DNC had taken care of any possibility of a theft, but I was wrong.

Do you honestly believe these people will vote again? Do you honestly believe that if we DO NOT FIX THE BROKEN SYSTEM that we can rally more people to vote?

There have been more races than the Presidency that were fixed. That may be why more legislators are not DOING SOMETHING TO TRY TO FIX THE SYSTEM!

Believe me, I care about the party. That is why I HAVE TAKEN A STAND to try to fix the system! Those that aren't doing all they can to ensure fair elections are wasting their time. Our votes didn't count in 2000, didn't count in 2004 and unless something is done - will not count in 2006 or 08!

So please, instead of accusing us of being conspiracy theorist, jump on the bandwagon and HELP US ENSURE FAIR ELECTIONS! If anyone is hijacking the party it is the ones who feel the elections are fair and the corporate computer counting is fine!

[Junkdrawer]

35. Perhaps you would like to explain why Republicans fight so hard...

to maintain a non-auditable system.

[applegrove]

42. Because the "new technology" pays off in fear that divides us. n/t

[bpilgrim]

49. actually

these issues seem to be uniting a LOT of folks... this is a NON-PARTISAN issue, cept for politicos.

fyi...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/bbv/cspan-repub_caller-paper-trail.mp3

more...
http://GlobalFreePress.com

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[Zinfandel]

36. Please, get real! To assume republican owned and operated...

electronic voting machines...are as clean as the driven snow, is ignorance and preposterous.

By using the tight little cliche' "conspiracy theorists" which is supposed to make it all a non-reality, is blind.

When the republicans passed the "Help America Vote Act" in 2002, I'm sure they had our best interest in mind, adding more and more of their machines (though out the country) is something we should accept as a positive?

Without a doubt the democrats are too at fault, with no real vision put forth to the voters, while ignoring and failure to amplify the facts about this corrupt corporate administration, as well as not offering a clear, concise and comprehensive difference in ideology & agenda.

But, to say voting machines are not a significant piece of the republicans strategy for them to steal elections to keep power, is ridiculous, all one has to do is look at Georgia. When a popular incumbent democratic governor and a democratic senator, who both had double digit leads going into the night of the election, while ahead all night, by morning the republicans had "won" both races. Georgia has 100% republican owned electronic voting machines, all the exit polls saw the democrats winning...yet the next morning the media was 'shocked" ( the MSM) and no way to check...As the republican continue to fight investigating the machines, or offer paper trails nor can the machines software be scrutinized.

All of a sudden all "exit polls" (after years and years of proven accuracy) to the contrary, mean nothing!

Without a doubt electronic voting machines are a problem and should never be ignored nor underemphasized...And, I really don't think most democrats allow this to not become involved, or vote or continue trying to win.

The machines are a huge and growing problem...democrat have two bill sitting in congress addressing the issue, but will never see the light of day (brought to the floor) the republicans in majority won't allow it and are burying the bills...Tell me, again, how it's not a major issue...

Look who counts are votes, in Georgia, Florida, Ohio & Texas, etc., the Secretary of State, all republicans, they count the votes...And now in California, an ELECTED democrat Secretary of State (Kevin Shelley) was slicky force to resign, and CA republican governor Musclehead, APPOINTED a republican as Secretary of State, who wants the republican electronic voting machines in California, Democrat Shelley was fighting to keep them out!

Why? Coincidence?

There is indeed a real problem and still nothing is being done about it...so expect more and more republicans to win tight elections (and not so tight elections)...As you sit there and scratching your head every couple of years insisting it has nothing to do with the republicans electronic voting machines...

That's exactly what the republicans want & love hearing. In so much as nothing will be done about it.

[LaPera]

72. Hmmm...Are you assuming more than what's there?

Or, are we just floating along and hoping for the best?

[Stevepol]

41. What would it take for the elections NOT to be rigged?

As soon as well-placed Dems begin to shout this from the hilltops until something is done about it and the only way that is going to happen is if everybody is convinced that it's true.

There evidence is out there, from GA 02 to the national election 04. The election of 04 was bought and paid for long before Nov 04 by kick-backs and bribes and pay-offs to get the machines installed. Then the companies took care of the vote counting.

Eventually, enough people will demand a paper ballot print-out and REQUIRED AUDITS for all elections using electronic voting machines to count the vote. When it will happen I don't know, but a fact is a fact and this one is just absolutely clear.

When some of this begins to change, it will happen quickly I believe (and hope) and we still will have to be voting.

Your argument is pretty limp. Reminds me of the folks who think that evolution and God can't coexist. The voting machines are rigged and we have to keep voting anyway, if we hope eventually to turn it around.

[AintIgreat]

45. with computers anything is possible

[OrwellwasRight]

74. Welcome to DU, AintIgreat!

:hi:

[PowerToThePeople]

46. Not a conspiracy theory. n/t

[JAbuchan08]

48. The only one who can stop you from voting is yourself

The voting process was rigged. Someone had their finger on the scales. I'm not trying to demoralize you, but there's nothing wrong with accepting what IS. What is is that just "coincidentally" machines allocated to Democratic districts were too few or broke down or inexplicably moved votes from the Kerry column to the Bush column. This didn't happen to Bush votes because it was not some random glitch.
I'm not giving up and I"m not encouraging anyone else to, but I'm not going to live with blinders on to avoid getting depressed.

[CarbonDate]

51. There are problems with the Diebold machines.

However, I agree that not every thread needs to be hijacked by the voter fraud people. Just because voter fraud is a problem doesn't mean that all others go away.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

55. I agree there are other problems but unless our election

system is fixed, we will not be able to work on the other problems. I, for one, have posted on other threads regarding the election fraud of 2000 and 2004 to try to point out that this is the problem we need to be tackling first and foremost. We won't be able to acheive anything without fair elections with a voter verified paper trail.

It has never been my intention to dissuade the discussion of the other threads. My intention is to inform that unless we clean up our election process, we won't be able to gain the first seat in Congress, much less see the interior of the White House.

[savemefromdumbya]

54. bit of both

rigged machines AND bad campaigning!

[Kailassa]

56. I'm glad that most of the people here can see what's going on.

Watching the '04 elections from Australia was absolutely horrible as news flashes poured out continually telling of various ways and places people (obviously dems) were made unable to vote. And both our government and media are strongly pro-Bush, there was no chance of them tilting the stories to make the repugs look bad.

With voting being compulsary here, (to the annoyance of the right-wingers) it's made easy for everyone to vote, with enough booths so that no-one has to walk far or wait more than a few minutes to vote.
And all votes are on paper and counted in the presence of representatives of both parties. And the idea of separating people voting for different parties would be considered criminal here. Everyone votes in the same booths, on the same forms.

As for the computer software, there is no reason to keep it secret if it's legitimate. just a look at who produces it tells the story.

[kster]

58. Millions of Americans

believe it was rigged,we have hundreds of new websites born since the 2004 election about the vote stealing machines, Carter baker commission barred American voters from attending, the media not just one but 100% of the media is silent even though there are millions of us that believe the 2004 election was stolen and want and deserve answers or at least media time on the subject, The Government with the exception of a few are completely silent on the vote stealing machines.

What part are you having trouble with?

[Kailassa]

65. I have a question?

Why did Kerry calmly concede defeat?

Could he have really been unaware of the skullduggery going on?

I cried when he did.

[kster]

83. Just a thought

because Kerry would have been playing right in to the neocons hands,If Kerry contested he would have been giving cover to their vote theft. While he was running back and forth to court,they would have been able to cover their tracks, by him conceding defeat, he did not give them cover.

Thats why only eleven months later this vote theft scam is completely exposed in its entirety. We know now that we can't have any machines counting or tabulating our votes, Paper Ballots Hand Counted By The People is the only way to go.

[Kailassa]

90. Thanks kster,

but it felt awfully like a machine gun was being left in the hands of a juvenile thug.

[Minstrel Boy]

62. America's problem isn't the "conspiracy theorists,"

America's problem is the conspirators.

[Dees]

63. I have yet to read a debunking of the exit poll phenomenon

in 04 election. Something was up. Every single vote must count with an auditrail.

[radwriter0555]

80. Until 2000, VNS was the exit poll organization of record for many, many

years. Until 2000, VNS had accurately predicted the outcome of every election with dead on accuracy. It's what they did! They were pollsters, and the go-to experts on exit polling.

They predicted that Gore was the winner, and they were right.

But, shortly after the election, they were just run out of business.

You'll never hear from them again.

The republicans don't want the truth in their elections.

[Rex]

66. You're obviously tired.

Still, nice rant!

Someone is trying to stop you from voting? There are extremist liberals out there trying to stop you from voting? Wow, first I've heard of this. Just ignore them and go vote!

However, it does seem that you have created a conspiracy inside a consipracy...very crazy.

[nvliberal]

70. Nobody's stopping you.

But recognize that whatever you do or any other Democrat does to try and get their candidates elected in this rotten system, it's going to be uphill because the problem of the machines isn't addressed.

The old system doesn't work anymore. The past three elections plus the Clinton impeachment farce are proof of it.

[helderheid]

82. the machines are rigged.

http://www.udpc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15

We had an extensive converstation about election fraud


Before our forum was hacked (how appropriate), we had quite an extensive conversation about election fraud in 2002 and 2004 elections. I will attempt to reconstruct some of the links previously listed.

First, the 2004 election results forum on Democratic Underground is a great place to check out. Read anything and everything by "TruthIsAll":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=203


More interesting links:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1970/
http://www.VelvetRevolution.us#020505 <-- video
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%2218%2C181+votes%22&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&fl=0&x=wrt

20 Amazing Facts About Voting in the USA

Did you know....

1.80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold and ES&S.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diebold

2.There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0916-04.htm
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html

3.The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/private_company.html
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html

4.The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who wrote in 2003 that he was “committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main632436.shtml
http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1647886

5.Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be chairman of ES&S. He became Senator based on votes counted by ES&S machines.

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/031004Fitrakis/031004fitrakis. .html

6.Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, long-connected with the Bush family, was recently caught lying about his ownership of ES&S by the Senate Ethics Committee.

http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&file=articl le&sid=26
http://www.blackboxvoting.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=26 www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000896.php

7.Senator Chuck Hagel was on a short list of George W. Bush’s vice-presidential candidates.

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_28/b3689130.htm http://theindependent.com/stories/052700/new_hagel27.html

8.ES&S is the largest voting machine manufacturer in the U.S. and counts almost 60% of all U.S. votes.

http://www.essvote.com/HTML/about/about.html
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/042804Landes/042804landes.html

9.Diebold’s new touch screen voting machines have no paper trail of any votes. In other words, there is no way to verify that the data coming out of the machine is the same as what was legitimately put in by voters.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
http://www.itworld.com/Tech/2987/041020evotestates/pfindex.html

10.Diebold also makes ATMs, checkout scanners, and ticket machines, all of which log each transaction and can generate a paper trail.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
http://www.diebold.com/solutions/default.htm

11.Diebold is based in Ohio. http://www.diebold.com/aboutus/ataglance/default.htm

12.Diebold employed 5 convicted felons as senior managers and developers to help write the central compiler computer code that counted
50% of the votes in 30 states.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,61640,00.html
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/10/301469.shtml

13.Jeff Dean, Diebold’s Senior Vice-President and senior programmer on Diebold’s central compiler code, was convicted of 23 counts of felony theft in the first degree.

http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf

14.Diebold Senior Vice-President Jeff Dean was convicted of planting back doors in his software and using a “high degree of sophistication” to evade detection over a period of 2 years.

http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf

15.None of the international election observers were allowed in the polls in Ohio.

http://www.globalexchange.org/update/press/2638.html
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/10/26/loc_elexoh.html

16.California banned the use of Diebold machines because the security was so bad. Despite Diebold’s claims that the audit logs could not be hacked, a chimpanzee was able to do it. (See the movie here http://blackboxvoting.org/baxter/baxterVPR.mov .)

http://wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,63298,00.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4874190

17.30% of all U.S. votes are carried out on unverifiable touch screen voting machines with no paper trail.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/28/sunday/main632436.shtml

18.All - not some - but all the voting machine errors detected and reported in Florida went in favor of Bush or Republican candidates.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65757,00.html
http://www.rise4news.net/extravotes.html
http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News& ;file=article&sid=950
http://www.ilcaonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News& ;file=article&sid=950 http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00227.htm

19.The governor of the state of Florida, Jeb Bush, is the President’s brother.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/7628725.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10544-2004Oct29.html

20.Serious voting anomalies in Florida - again always favoring Bush - have been mathematically demonstrated and experts are recommending further investigation.

http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/policy/sto ory/0,10801,97614,00.html
http://www.uscountvotes.org/
Tue May 10, 2005 9:20 am


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
Speaking of TruthIsAll


Had to repost:

TruthIsAll (1000+ posts) Sat May-07-05 04:30 PM
Original message
Our Evidence vs. Their Evidence

Edited on Sat May-07-05 05:22 PM by TruthIsAll
OUR EVIDENCE

We know Kerry led the pre-election state polls.
We know Kerry led the pre-election national polls.

We know Kerry led the post-election state exit polls, 51-48%.
We know Kerry led the post-election national exit poll, 51-48%

We know documented voting machine “glitches” favored Bush 99% of the time.

We know the media and E-M will not release detailed raw precinct data.
We know Blackwell refused to testify before Conyers.
We know Mitofsky refused to testify before Conyers.

We know that there were over 21 million new voters.
We know Kerry won the vast majority (57-62%) of new voters.

We know there were 3 million former Nader voters.
We kknow Kerry won Nader voters by 71%-21% over Bush.

We know Party ID averaged 39% Dem/35% Rep/26% Independent in the prior three elections.
We know Party ID was 38/35/27 for the first 13047 National Exit Poll respondents.
We know it was changed to 37/37/24 for the final 613 in the 13660 Final.

We know Kerry, like Gore, won the female vote 54/46% up until the final 660 respondents.
We know it was changed to 51% in the 13660 Final.

We know Bush 2000 voters represented an IMPOSSIBLE 43% of the 2004 electorate in the final 13660 Exit poll.
We know it was changed from 41% in the first 13047
We know that Bush had 50.456 mm votes in 2000.
We know that about 3.5% of them have since died.
We know, therefore, that the Bush percentage could not have been higher than 39.8% (48.69/122.26).
We know that with the 39.8/40.2% weighting, Kerry won by 52.4-46.7%, or SEVEN million votes.


We know the 2000 election was stolen - by Bush in Florida where 175,000 punch cards (70% of them Gore votes) were spoiled.
We know SCOTUS stopped the recount and voted 5-4 for Bush.

We know the 2002 election was stolen (ask Max Cleland).

We know that the National Exit Poll MoE is under 1%.
We know because we checked the NEP margin of error table.
We know because we did the simple MoE calculation.
We know that Kerry won the Natioanl Poll by over 3%, 51-48%.
We know the odds are astronomical that the deviation was triple the MoE.

We know that 42 of 50 states deviated from the exit polls to Bush. We know that includes ALL 22 states in the Eastern Time Zone.

We know that 16 states deviated beyond the exit poll MoE for Bush, and none did for Kerry.

We know that touch screen voting machines became widely used in 2004.

We know that Republicans fought against paper ballots for Diebold and ESS touch screens.

We know that ALL Diebold ATMs provide a paper receipt.

We know that the deviation trend from the exit polls to the vote was approaching ZERO until 2000, when there was a dramatic reversal.

We know that scores of newspapers which supported Bush in 2000 supported Kerry in 2004.

We know that Kerry won the Ohio Exit Poll, by at least 51-48%.

We know the media will not report in any of the above.


THEIR EVIDENCE:
Something we don't know.
The rBr hypothesis: Bush voters were reluctant to speak to exit pollsters.

But..
We know that many Republican voters deserted Bush for Kerry.
We know there were hardly any Gore Democrats who voted for Bush.

Ladies and Gentleman of the Jury:
Have you reached a verdict?
Tue May 10, 2005 9:24 am


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
Jim Lampley: The Biggest Story of Our Lives


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/2005/05/biggest-story-of-our-live.html for full article:

Tandalayo_Scheisskopf (1000+ posts) Tue May-10-05 12:35 PM
Original message
Jim Lampley: The Biggest Story of Our Lives


At 5:00 p.m. Eastern time on Election Day, I checked the sportsbook odds in Las Vegas and via the offshore bookmakers to see the odds as of that moment on the Presidential election. John Kerry was a two-to-one favorite. You can look it up.


People who have lived in the sports world as I have, bettors in particular, have a feel for what I am about to say about this: these people are extremely scientific in their assessments. These people understand which information to trust and which indicators to consult in determining where to place a dividing line to influence bets, and they are not in the business of being completely wrong. Oddsmakers consulted exit polling and knew what it meant and acknowledged in their oddsmaking at that moment that John Kerry was winning the election.


And he most certainly was, at least if the votes had been fairly and legally counted. What happened instead was the biggest crime in the history of the nation, and the collective media silence which has followed is the greatest fourth-estate failure ever on our soil.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/2005/05/biggest-story-of-our-live.html

This is Jim Lampley, the sportscaster, people. This should give you some idea on how deeply this story has drilled into our collective consciousness. Mr. Lampley is not known as a tin-foil-hatter, although I am sure someone will now try to tar him with that brush.
Tue May 10, 2005 9:46 am


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
Do the math


TruthIsAll (1000+ posts) Wed May-11-05 12:06 PM
Original message

TIA constraint: 2004 Votes = G+B+N+New, or New = 122.26-49.21-48.69-3.21



Total 2004 votes = Returning 2000 voters + New Voters

Total 2004 votes = Gore + Bush + Nader + New voters

New = 122.26-49.21-48.69-3.21

New = 21.15 (minimum)

Kerry won 57-60% of New voters.

Total Kerry vote = K = .9*Gore + .1*Bush + .7*Nader + .57*New
Total Bush vote = B = .1*Gore + .9*Bush + .2*Nader + .41*New

You do the math..
Wed May 11, 2005 8:35 am


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
Jim Lampley Latest


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/2005/05/to-byron-york-and-other-o.html

You'll never watch boxing the same way!
Thu May 12, 2005 5:47 pm


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
things you must also believe if you really believe that...


Another I "lifted" from Democratic Underground

If you still think the 2004 election was legitimate, then here are some other things you must also believe if you really believe that George W. Bush won the election:

1. That the exit polls were WRONG.
2. That Zogby’s 5pm election day calls for Kerry winning OH and FL were WRONG. He was exactly RIGHT in his 2000 final poll.
3. That Harris’ last minute polling for Kerry was WRONG. He was exactly RIGHT in his 2000 final poll.
4. That the Incumbent Rule (that undecideds break for the challenger) was WRONG.
5. That the 50% Rule was WRONG (that an incumbent doesn’t do better than his final polling)
6. That the Approval Rating Rule was WRONG (that an incumbent with less than 50% approval will most likely lose the election)
7. That Greg Palast was WRONG when he said that even before the election, 1 million votes were stolen from Kerry. He was the ONLY reporter to break the fact that 90,000 Florida blacks were disenfranchised in 2000.
8. That it was just a COINCIDENCE that the exit polls were CORRECT where there WAS a PAPER TRAIL and INCORRECT (+5% for Bush) where there was NO PAPER TRAIL.
9. That the surge in new young voters had NO positive effect for Kerry.
10. That Bush BEAT 99-1 mathematical odds in winning the election.
11. That Kerry did WORSE than Gore against an opponent who LOST the support of SCORES of Republican newspapers who were for Bush in 2000.
12. That Bush did better than an 18 national poll average which showed him tied with Kerry at 47. In other words, Bush got 80% of the undecided vote to end up with a 51-48 majority - when ALL professional pollsters agree that the undecided vote ALWAYS goes to the challenger.
13. That voting machines made by Republicans with no paper trail and with no software publication, which have been proven by thousands of computer scientists to be vulnerable in scores of ways, were NOT tampered with in this election.
14. That people who voted for Bush were not anxious to speak to exit pollsters in the states that Bush had to win (like Florida and Ohio) where the exit polls were off, but wanted to be polled in states that he had sewn up (like Arizona, Louisiana and Arkansas) where the exit polls were exactly correct.
15. That Democrats who voted for Kerry were very anxious to be exit-polled, especially in Florida and Ohio (and that this is what accounts for the discrepancy between the exit polls and the actual votes in these two critical states).
16. That women were much more likely to be polled early in the day in Florida and Ohio. That is another reason why the exit polls were wrong in those states. In those states in which the exit polls were correct to within one percent, women did not come out early.
17. That network newscasters who claim that those who consider the possibility of fraud are just wild conspiracy theorists do not have an agenda.
18. That it is just a coincidence that only since the 2000 presidential election have exit polls failed to agree with the actual vote - and that Bush won both disputed elections.
19. That exit polls are not to be trusted in the United States, even though they are used throughout the world to monitor elections for fraud.
20. That even though more votes were cast than there were eligible voters in many precincts of critical states, it is not an issue that needs to be covered in the media.
21. That the absence of a paper ballot trail for touch screen computers does not encourage fraud, even though they have been proven by hundreds of computer experts to be highly vulnerable to fraudulent attack.
22. That statistical tests which indicate a high probability of fraud are just conspiratorial junk science.
23. That Bush’s vote tallies could exceed his exit poll percentage in FL by 4%. Based on 2846 individuals exit polled, the polling margin of error was 1.84%. The odds of this occurrence: 1 out of 1667.
24. That his vote tallies could exceed his exit poll percentage in OH by 3%. Based on 1963 individuals exit polled, the polling margin of error was 2.21%. The odds of this occurrence: 1 out of 333.
25. That his vote tallies could exceed his exit poll percentages in 41 out of 51 states. The odds of this occurrence: 1 out of 135,000.
26. That his vote tallies could exceed the margin of error in 16 states. Not one state vote tally exceeded the MOE for Kerry. The odds of this occurrence: 1 out of 13.5 Trillion.
27. That his vote tallies could exceed a 2% exit poll margin of error in 23 states. The probability of this occurrence: as close to ZERO as you can get.
28. That of 88 documented touch screen incidents, 86 voters would see their vote for Kerry come up Bush - and only TWO from Bush to Kerry. The probability of this occurrence: as close to ZERO as you can get.
29. That Mitofsky (who ran the exit polls), with 25 years of experience, has lost his exit polling touch.
30. That by disputing the Ukrainian elections, the Bush administration would base its case on the accuracy of U.S. sponsored exit polling, while at the same time ignoring exit polls in the U.S. presidential election, which the media reported Kerry was winning handily.
31. That Bush could overcome Kerry’s 50.8% - 48.2% lead in the National Exit Poll Sub-sample (13,047 polled) and win the popular vote: 51.2% - 48.4%, a 3.0% increase from the exit poll to the vote tally, far beyond the 0.86% margin of error. The odds of this occurrence: 1 out of 282 Billion.
32. According to a London-based insurance actuary, the odds of all of these things happening in ONE election, let alone two elections in a row, are too astronomical to be calculated!
Fri May 13, 2005 11:38 am


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
Pie anyone?


http://www.recountflorida.com/ufed/president.php?county=holmes
Sun May 15, 2005 3:58 pm


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
GREAT site


http://www.exitpollz.org/
Sun May 15, 2005 6:13 pm


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
26 page report on 2004 exit poll discrepancies


National Election Data Archive Project
---
Working Paper
----
Patterns of Exit Poll Discrepancies
More On the Implausibility of a “Uniform” Bias Explanation for the
2004 Presidential Election Exit Poll Discrepancies
May 12, 2005
Updated May 17, 2005

http://uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/US/exit-polls/USCV_exit_poll_simulations.pdf
Wed May 18, 2005 1:20 pm


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
Voter Confidence Resolution


Saturday, April 23, 2005
Voter Confidence Resolution
(v6.1, LAST UPDATED: 5/14/05 5pm)

Whereas an election is a competition for the privilege of representing the people; and

Whereas each voter is entitled to cast a single ballot to record his or her preferences for representation; and

Whereas the records of individual votes are the basis for counting and potentially re-counting a collective total and declaring a winner; and

Whereas an election's outcome is a matter of public record, based on a finite collection of immutable smaller records; and

Whereas a properly functioning election system should produce unanimous agreement about the results indicated by a fixed set of unchanging records; and

Whereas recent U.S. federal elections have been conducted under conditions that have not produced unanimous agreement about the outcome; and

Whereas future U.S. federal elections cannot possibly produce unanimous agreement as long as any condition permits an inconclusive count or re-count of votes; and

Whereas inconclusive counts and re-counts have occurred during recent U.S. federal elections due in part to electronic voting devices that do not produce a paper record of votes to be re-counted if necessary; and

Whereas inconclusive results have also been caused by election machines losing data, producing negative vote totals, showing more votes than there are registered voters, and persistently and automatically swapping a voter's vote from his or her chosen candidate to an opponent; and

Whereas inconclusive results make it impossible to measure the will of the people in their preferences for representation; and

Whereas the Declaration of Independence refers to the Consent of the Governed as the self-evident truth from which Government derives "just Power";

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED:

Because inconclusive results, by definition, mean that the true outcome of an election cannot be known, there is no basis for confidence in the results reported from U.S. federal elections; and

Be it also resolved:

The following is a comprehensive election reform platform likely to ensure conclusive election results and create a basis for confidence in U.S. federal elections:
1) voting processes owned and operated entirely in the public domain, and
2) clean money laws to keep all corporate funds out of campaign financing, and
3) a voter verifiable paper ballot for every vote cast and additional uniform standards determined by a non-partisan nationally recognized commission, and
4) declaring election day a national holiday, and
5) counting all votes publicly and locally in the presence of citizen witnesses and credentialed members of the media, and
6) equal time provisions to be restored by the media along with a measurable increase in local, public control of the airwaves, and
7) presidential debates containing a minimum of three candidates, run by a non-partisan commission comprised of representatives of publicly owned media outlets, and
preferential voting and proportional representation to replace the winner-take-all system for federal elections;
Be it further resolved:

When elections are conducted under conditions that prevent conclusive outcomes, the Consent of the Governed is not being sought. Absent this self-evident source of legitimacy, such Consent is not to be assumed or taken for granted.


***
Wed May 18, 2005 4:11 pm


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
From the Crisis Papers... Current Events for Dummies


helderheid (1000+ posts) Mon May-23-05 04:18 AM
Original message
From the Crisis Papers... Current Events for Dummies (stolen 2004)

Edited on Mon May-23-05 04:19 AM by helderheid
<snip>
FIDDLING WITH THE VOTES

Q. You alluded above to electoral hanky-panky in the 2004 election. Are you serious? And, if so, how could a political party get away with fiddling with the election returns? Wouldn't such manipulation be so obvious that they'd risk their reputation forever?

A. Since one third of the electorate in the last election voted on computer-voting machines with no verifiable paper trail, we'll never be certain how many votes might have been tampered with. We do know how non-secure the voting process is. Prior to the 2004 election, for example, Howard Dean and Bev Harris demonstrated on CNBS how easy it was for them to access the vote-counting software, alter the figures, and exit without anybody being the wiser.

(I'm inserting a link to it here: http://www.udpc.org/evote-lowband.htm )

Since the voting machines and the secret software that compiles the votes of the various precincts are effectively controlled by three Republican companies, and since statisticians using demographics and exit-polls have determined that Bush had only one chance in a million of winning the election, it is highly likely that some fiddling took place with the results. Under the current system, local returns, for instance, could be 100% accurate -- even with a verified paper trail -- and an election still could be stolen, due to compiling fraud.

Precisely because we know how often such electoral theft occurs around the world, we Americans should be extra-vigilant about it happening here. But we're in denial: We're not Zimbabwe, we tell ourselves; surely, American politicians wouldn't be that brazen and corrupt. But Karl Rove and his minions are masters of the Big Lie technique and a host of electoral dirty tricks. And John Kerry handed them the best gift of all; he didn't even raise a question about the validity of the result, just gave his concession speech quickly and exited stage right.

The only way to guarantee an honest, transparent vote in contemporary America is to return to paper ballots, hand-counted in the presence of both partisan and independent monitors -- and with tested/certified software adding up the grand totals, again in the presence of election monitors. If the U.S. doesn't take these steps, it's asking for more corruption of the process and suspect election results in election after election. The Republicans benefit from the current system and will do nothing to change it; the required changes will not happen on their own but will require massive and unrelenting citizen pressure.
</snip>

A whole lot more here:



http://www.americanpolitics.com/20050521Weiner.html

Last edited by Clarity on Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
Sun May 22, 2005 10:21 pm


Clarity
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 24
John G. Mason : Questions about the Bush Victory


mardi 19 juillet 2005

Imprimer cet article | Cet article au format PDF

1) Peut-on aujourd’hui, après l’analyse des résultats, dresser une physionomie des deux camps électoraux qui se sont affrontés ?

2004 a stolen election ?

First we should note that the November 2004 election was an extremely hard fought campaign that raises serious questions in the minds of analysts about the overall integrity of the American electoral process. Coming after the judicial “coup d’Etat de velours” that decided the 2000 election in favor of Mr. Bush ; fears that this year’s election would be stolen were widely felt on the Left before the election.

Now, many feel that their worst fears were realized for two reasons : the weird discrepancy between the election-day exit polls that reported Kerry getting 5 million more votes than he actually ended up receiving in the official count, and the massive number of “spoiled” minority ballots that were invalidated after they were cast.

In the days following the November election, there was a great deal of speculation in the “blogosphere” asking whether the winning formula for the Republicans in 2004 hadn’t been two parts evangelical mobilization in rural America to one part massive voter fraud in Florida and Ohio.

This line of speculation was soon backed up by academic specialists such as Steve Freeman of the University of Pennsylvania, who argued that the discrepancies between exit poll data and the reported vote from the some swing states like Ohio constitute a clear indication that there was massive voter fraud at the county or state level - just as they would anywhere else in the world and as they did recently in the Ukraine . Freeman’s argument has been backed by seasoned reporters such as the BBC’s Greg Palast but also strongly disputed by other progressive analysts such as Ruy Teixeira of and David Corn of The Nation.

<snip>

more
http://www.temps-reels.net/article1679.html

[LeahD]

116. Glad I stopped by this thread tonight.

Thanks for refreshing my memory.
We were absolutely screwed over in '04.

[helderheid]

84. .

[garybeck]

89. Get your head out of the sand.

the people you are talking about are right.

they are not "conspiracy theorists". they (we) are expert statisticians, experienced lawyers, computer security experts, and voting rights advocates.

read the exit polls.

read the report signed by PhD statisticians that the exit polls simply could not be off by as much as they were, without some kind of funny business. the chances are 16 million to one.

I am disappointed that people like you refuse to look at the facts. It is unfortunate that you think you can just try to campaign harder because you aren't going to win that way.

The machines are rigged. There is a company called Diebold and another one called ESS and another one called Sequoia. They count nearly 100% of the votes in our country. That is a fact. They do it in secret, on secret software code. They will not let anyone look at the code. They are owned by Republicans. The owner of one of the companies even admitted that he was going to do it. An employee of the company has come forward and blown the whistle, but you evidently have your fingers in your ears.

We will not stop beating the drum on this until our election system and our democracy is repaired. It may take months, it may take years. It may take decades. But we will not give up. For many of us this is the most important issue we face. Period.

Stop whining and learn what is going on. Join those who are looking at the truth. Get your head out of the sand. Your country and your democracy are at stake.

there is another key flaw in your statement. those who are trying to convince you of the truth about our election system are not in any way trying to tell you not to vote or not to participate in the process. in fact, most of us are major advocates of voting. I myself became a notary public so I could register people to vote.

when we respond to posts saying, it doesn't matter because it's rigged, it's because we are trying to wake people up and get them to realize that we need to work on the election system. we can't just do like we have because it isn't going to work. We have to work on both ends. The voting and the counting. BOTH. Do you get it?

[texpatriot2004]

95. BRAVO Garybeck.

:applause: :applause:

[kster]

97. I see your applause and raise you an

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[texpatriot2004]

119. Okay, how about this...

:applause: :applause: :applause:

:woohoo: :woohoo:

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

100. you probably won't read this comment

from your own mouth, "Don’t bother with an apology or reply to this note, I’m not interested."

All I want to say is don't use Andy's name in vain. Just because he died doesn't give YOU ANY FUCKING RIGHT to use his name in vain. SHAME ON YOU.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

103. isn't that kind of hypocritical

will you report him too?

ReadTomPaine (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-04-05 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
96. And I’m sick of your “shit” too, moron.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

104. I thought so.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

101. Member since Sep 11th 2005 nt

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

110. I advise

you to look in the archives and see what kinds of I topics and threads that I have posted before you make a blatant and blind accusation.

[Kailassa]

115. After seeing the rudeness

with which you write in this thread, I'm certainly not going to waste my time reading even more of your posts, that would be just plain silly, lol.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[texpatriot2004]

106. Yeah, Autorank is here with facts too. Woohoo.

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[ProudToBeLiberal]

107. that's bad logic

isn't it the other way around. I think you have to show me that the voting machines were purposely rigged.

edit-spelling

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[autorank]

117. No I have to show you there's a potential problem with people

who out there who would take advantage of it.

By your standards there would never be any arrests. The police can't prove the case, they assess it and make an arrest. The prosecutors then decide to move forward. I hear this...prove to me that there was fraud. Did we say that in the Ukraine? No, we said, wow, these exit polls are way off and they changed voting locations, intimidated people and used any combination of means to change an election.

Get a grip on reality. If you think the Republicans are just swell fellows who would never invade a foreign country because there leader is deluded and greedy; if you think that they're fine fellows who would never let people starve to and get violently ill and violently attacked for DAYS AT A TIME in New Orleans, then you wrong.

DFA, despite Deans temporary amnesia, is very strong in voting rights and election integrity. Just wat them at a big voting rights conference, they had a booth and were giving things out on election fraud.

[EFerrari]

120. I like Landshark's solution.

My new reply to this major league denial about the shambles that are our Federal elections is, show me the votes. I'm not a believer in magic, so show me the votes.

And far from discouraging voter registration, we make it a point to have reg opportunities at all our events. After all that effort, it would be nice to see the same votes counted, too. lol

[garybeck]

109. Autorank I've always wondered something

who is that photo in your sig?

[autorank]

118. Well thanks for asking. It's Harvey Keitel in "Reservoir Dogs"

Tres charmant, huh?

[lwin]

111. Thank you, I wish the constant whining would stop too.

I am also tired of it. Do I think there are issues with the machines? Absolutely, and we have to stay on top of it. Paper trail and open code are non-negotiable. Do I think the GOP has mastered the art of rigging them, across the nation? No way, they're not that good.

I find the constant "doesn't matter, the fix is in" refrain, disingenuous at best. It may be part of the problem, but it's not he whole problem. We lost the ground game in the Kerry campaign...precincts, phone banks, getting out the vote. Also, he should have fought back against the swift boaters. We put all our eggs in a few state baskets, when we should have been courting all states. That coupled with Rovian marketing and dirty tricks at the polls...people missing from voter rolls, not enough voting booths in poor areas...you know, good old fashioned disenfranchisement.

[Kailassa]

113. It's not difficult,

they have no need to use their own little brains, all that know-how can be bought, and there is proof that the machines were giving Democrat votes to B*s*. Perhaps you should read Helderheid's excellent post on the subject.

[The Magistrate]

121. Locking

Flame-War.