Return to New Orleans..Ch4..."Floodwalls vs. Levees" ***(Dial up Warning)

[bvar22]

On the CBS News Evening News tonight, a fresh faced reporter breathlessly stated that, "New Orleans is slowly returning to normal."

She couldn't be more wrong! Conditions are improving slightly in some areas, but we aren't even in the same galaxy as "normal". I don't believe that New Orleans will ever be "normal" again (not that it ever was). There are more commercial businesses opening in the Metairie area, some services are now available, and traffic is heavy again, but NORMAL? I think not!

There were two encouraging events today.
1) Mail was delivered to my house!
2) Some schools in the area reopened!

It was good to see the kids playing, and it I guess it does does give the superficial illusion of "normal". But to me, it is like the British having tea during a Nazi bombing raid in London....a pretend normal.
You can comprehend how far from "normal" New Orleans is by witnessing my joy at "The Mail Came Today!!!"


Levees vs. Floodwalls
New Orleans was NOT destroyed by a "breech in the 17th St Canal Levee" as is being reported in the Media.
New Orleans was destroyed by the catastrophic failure of a "Floodwall".

There is a HUGE difference between a "Levee" and a "Floodwall"!


This is a traditional New Orleans Levee.
It is a mound of compacted earth covering a concrete "rip rap" and steel core. The side facing Lake Pontchatrain is faced with concrete "rip rap" (large blocks of broken concrete).
The cross section is substantial, and you can see where the levee elevation was raised a few years ago. The new addition is the narrower section at the top. This section consists of a corrugated steel wall core covered by earth.
There were NO FAILURES of this type of Levee during or after Katrina.
Because of its robust construction, if a failure were to occur, the break would start small, and gradually enlarge over time. It is even possible that the leak would limit itself depending on the velocity of flow and the disposition of the concrete blocks. It might even "heal itself" if blocks of concrete and debris washed in.


This is a view from the top. Notice the water level on one side, and the height of the houses on the other. New Orleans is INDEED below sea level. Also notice how BROAD the levee is. As the water level rises, the stress is distributed by the angle of the levee face, much like an earthen dam is constructed.



This is a "Floodwall".
This happens to be the floodwall on the 17th St Canal.
This is the side that "didn't fail". This is the side my house is on.



This "wall" is about 7' high, and is built on top of an earlier "Earth Levee". I was able to "chin up" and get this shot from the top. My guess is that it is about 6" wide, undoubtedly reinforced concrete.
"Floodwalls" are a recent development in the Levee Protection System of New Orleans.
I am not an engineer, but this looks "all wrong" to me. As the water rises, the stress is applied to a longer "torque arm" (lever) transferring ALL the stress to the base of the wall. If a "failure" occurs, it will be catastrophic. Whole sections will immediately collapse causing a "tidal wave". This IS what happened to New Orleans many hours AFTER Katrina had done her worst and left the area!



This is the section of the 17th St Canal Floodwall (NOT Levee)
that FAILED CATASTROPHICALLY and drowned New Orleans.

As stated above, I am not an engineer. I would appreciate an evaluation by an engineer. Please post your opinion and analysis.

I will do some research tomorrow to determine when "Floodwalls" became acceptable for Hurricane protection in New Orleans.
At the present time, I have been unable to determine the nature of the flooding in New Orleans East. The Media incorrectly uses the term Levee to describe the Floodwall on the 17th St Canal, so I don't trust their account. I will photograph that location when it becomes possible to enter that area.

Tomorrow I will post pictures of the drainage canals and pumping stations.

Bob
New Orleans

Chapter1

Chapter2

Chapter3

[chalky]

1. Thanks so much for the visuals. I know I've heard "it was the FLOODWALLS,

NOT the LEVEE", and I've corrected my references since the difference was explained to me, but it helps A LOT to SEE("up close and personal" so to speak) exactly what I'm talking about.

[Tinksrival]

2. Thanks Bob

Keep up the good work! Your reports are great.

[femrap]

3. Thank you so much for the pictures and information...

So where you show the Floodwall that collapsed and the sandbags...that is the Ninth Ward?

Glad you got some mail!

I don't watch TV much due to the lies of the MSM so these pictures give me a great idea of what happened. Obviously, it is so much cheaper to put up a wall versus a levee...

Thanks again. Keep us posted.

[Sgent]

6. No not the 9th ward

The picture's he shows are of the 17th street canal which borders Bucktown/Metarie on the west, and Lakeview/NOLA on the east. The lower 9th Ward was affected by a different series of breaches -- since its located on the otherside of the industrial canal (an actual shipping canal unlike this one).

This is the breach that flooded the harbor area, UNO, threatened uptown, and the central business district / superdome and hospitals.

Lakeview itself is a middle class, majority white area of NOLA. In the last 5 years or so, it has become more expensive but there are still many houses (pre-Katrina) available for 175-250k. It was IMHO one of the better areas to live in -- easy access to shopping in Metararie, and a quick commute downtown (10min w/o traffic).

People still haven't been let back in that area.

[uppityperson]

4. Wow, thank you so much for posting these

And for your comments about "normal". I keep telling people that yes, some parts are getting more normalized but most are a mess. A stinky, nasty, debris ridden toxic mess. Anyway, thank you for posting these and keep it coming. Peace.

[SeattleGirl]

5. Bob, thanks for your posts.

Must be so hard to see such destruction of your town. I want you to know I'm pulling for her -- and for you and all the other residents.

[3days]

7. Thanks Bob

I lived in New Orleans for 7 years and worked at the lighthouse at west end. I hear the yacht club burned down. I had lived on St Charles 4221 and also up on Spain near Decatur. Any idea how those fared?
Thanks

[bvar22]

11. You were a "LightHouse Keeper"???!!!!

WOW. That's my DREAM job. (I'm not kidding).

This is as close as I could get to Weat End and the Yacht Club. It was taken yesterday from the Lake Pontrachatrain Levee at "Bucktown"
about a mile from West End. I can't precisely locate the picture from my memory banks. Can you give us more detail abut this picture?




I was able to drive down St Charlea Ave from Louisiana Ave to Carrollton a couple of days ago. The area suffered sever flooding, but the homes directly on St Cahrles Ave were OK for the most part. The Avenue itself is slightly higher than the surrounding streets, and most of these homes are elevated several feet. There is still little or no electricity in this area, and the smell is overpowering.
There are some pictures of the area in this thread.

Chapter3


George and Lyla live about 5 blocks off St Charles and suffered major damage.



These people live 1/2 block off St Charles on the same street as George and Lyla and suffered NO damage.
They "rode out" the storm to "protect" their property". There is definately friction in the area.
See the thread linked above.

[3days]

15. Wow

Thanks for the pics. It's hard to tell exactly what part of westend that is without the yachtclub as a marker. It looks like it was take from the section where coconut beach is looking back towards the boat launch or the point.
I was at the lighthouse for almost three years, splitting my time beween there and the industrial canal. Absolutely one of the best jobs of my life (even on Sunday nights when Barts was in full gear) We covered the lake and the river all the way through the bayou's. I still miss tearing through the bayou at night and seeing the nutria and gator eyes reflecting off the moonlight.

As far as the tension goes, from my time there it always seemed there was a good amount of tension to begin with and I am sure that Katrina ratcheted it up about a thousand times. Sure would be nice to know tha it also brought people together a bit instead of farther apart.

It breaks my heart to see what has happened to the only city that made me feel like I was at home. Believe me I am very tempted to take up one of those job offers and get in my car tomorrow if I could.

By the way how did Tipitinas make out. I imagine being so close to the river that they are ok.

Thanks agian and let me know if you need anything.

Will

[bvar22]

17. I haven't driven by Tips yet.

But probably will tomorrow.

I heard many great bands at Tips. I loved the place, and lived within walking distance for a number of years before leaving New Orleans.
I did drive down St Charles and crossed Napoleon a few days ago. I believe that most areas right on the River Levee (like Tips) escaped the worst of the flooding.
The Maple Leaf on Oak St was open for business and music last Friday. They were on a generator, but were advertising for a Party. I would have gone, but had other pressing matters.

I also pray Cassimento's is undamaged (damn I'm hungry for their oysters!)

[3days]

24. I did hear about Maple Leaf

Spent many a night catching Rebirth there.
One of the best shows I ever saw was Crash Worship at Tipitinas where they led everybody out into the street and kept the whole thang going on for another 30 minutes or so right on the median.

[suigeneris]

8. Excellent, thanks. In addition

the floodwalls fail when water pouring over the top washes away the supporting earth onn the city side and the wall collapses from lack of a foundation.

[bvar22]

9. I don't believe that water "topped" the floodwall.

Everything I see here points to a single structural failure.
The failure of a single damaged or substandard "connector" between sections could cause the collapse of an entire section.
I am curious "how high" the water was in this canal when the structure failed. While this area is "inland" (not directly on Lake Pontchatrain), it is completely "open" to Lake Pontchatrain. The water from the lake can enter this canal unimpeded by a flood gate or pumping station (or at least this was the case 20 years ago). The water level at the collapse point would have been the same as the lake, but "wave action" would be dampened by the protection of the canal itself.
There is a "Pumping Station" on this canal, but (IIRC) it is several miles inland. Most pumping stations are at the end of the canals, and discharge directly into Lake Pontchatrain. This section of the 17th St Canal is actually the "outflow" from the pumping station.
I'm not sure if the pumping station was operational at the time, but I suspect that it was on FULL. I am curious if that could be a "contributing factor".

At ant rate, I haven't heard ANYONE in ANY MEDIA ask the BIG QUESTION!!!

Why was this section protected by a FLOODWALL, and NOT a Levee???!!!

[slaveplanet]

12. i'm very surprised

you haven't heard this yet- www.wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=16435

[bvar22]

14. I am listening now.

I have no TV and listen to the AM Advisory station (870AM) for "local" news and developments.
I can only log on the DU by WiFi for a few minutes per day.
I haven't been able to read most of the forums I used to haunt.

My World has become very small here. I don't know what is happening in the bigger World.
I am living in a state of exhaustion and manic activity. There is so much to be done. I am salvaging my house, helping neighbors, hustling for the bare living essentials (Ice, food, gas among other things).
When I can, I take off in the car to see where I can go and what I can photograph.
I need access to a small truck or van to move some things to storage. Amazing difficult to find one.

Everybody is hiring...EVERYBODY!
Businesses are open, but don't have the staff to run. There is a shortage of inhabitable housing. HOUSING is one of the main problems. Disaster Crews and Labor Crews are commuting from 100 miles away. I hope I have time to interview some "Labor Crews" tomorrow.

Anybody need a job?
Power was OFF today at my location. My batteries are low, so I will be unable to post anymore pics tonight.

[slaveplanet]

16. I was being sarcastic

please check out his claims ...I'd like to know the truth of the matter. I've seen them no where else.

[bvar22]

18. Oh

:dunce:
I lost the link when my batt died.
I'll try again. That stream is over an hour long, is there a time section that is pertinent to this issue, and can you give me the time code? I don't have enough battery to listen to the entire program tonight.

I know a disgruntled former engineer (an old highschool friend) who was a Project Director for the New Orleans Levee Board during the era when the levees were being upgraded. He was fired for what he said were political reasons. If I can find him, I KNOW he will give me the inside scoop on the floodwalls.

This will be continued.

[bvar22]

20. I'm listening to the start of the show about cancer cells....

...being inserted into the Polio vaccine.
I'm more than a little skeptical about this particular theory, but I DO like to listen to these shows. I won't be able to listen to the whole show, and it doesn't download for later listening.
I used to listen to Art Bell late at night, so I have credentials for this stuff and a readily available tin foil hat.

OK. They are getting to Katrina now.

Disagree Point one:
"The East floods because it was built on a marsh."
The west (Metairie) was also built on a marsh, but it is a predominantly WHITE, middle class (some UPPER Class) white flight suburb.
Good levees and good pumping stations protect Metairie.
( I have pictures of the canals and pumping stations that I plan to post tomorrow)

Good levees and good pumping stations COULD protect New Orleans East.

He DOES understand the Pumping Stations, rain accumulation, and flooding in New Orleans. Some of what he is talking about you can see in the pictures I posted above (the Levee height extensions after Camille).

The Google map he asks you to bring up has the location of some of the pics I posted above. I "screencapped" the photo he is using. It is very interesting, but there are some problems.


1) The sat picture that shows the "debris plug" at the bucktown bridge on the 17th St Canal was taken a long time AFTER the wall collapsed (days later?). The skys had cleared enough for a good Sat picture, and the debris plug (if it IS a "plug") could have easily been accumulated by water "backfilling" New Orleans.
Was this debris there during Katrina?

2) He STATES with GREAT emphasis that the COP CARS sitting on the Bucktown bridge could have called the Pumping Station and told them to turn off the pumps and saved New Orleans. The PROBLEM is that these cars shown in the picture were there AFTER (days after? the wall collapsed and New Orleans flooded.


3) The Pumping Stations are very sophisticated. They measure outflow,pressures and water levels. They also monitor the levels in the outflow canal. They ABSOLUTELY would be aware that the level was rising in the outflow canal.


I have trouble with his whole theory since it is based on a sat picture taken long AFTER the collapse and flooding.
However, it IS still interesting.

I still tend to believe that that collapse was cause by a faulty connector between sections of mfloodwall, or inferior materials and design.

[slaveplanet]

21. thanks for your take

I also understand that that section that broke was recently constructed.


The problem I have is , if it happened from surge, it much more likely would have broken on the north side of the bridge, and I've yet to see this adequately explained.

Also , you left out the part that it matters not when those cops were there (although I strongly suspect some were there before the breach). Because that red roofed building is the coast guard/ HS office and certainly they were there before it happened.


We need some eyewitnesses from some of those houses to really clear this up.

[bvar22]

23. I agree.

a credible eye witness, or a credible engineering report and lab analysis on the end sections of the wall that collapsed.
Thanks for the tip onthat program.
I enjoyed the listen, and DO keep an open mind

[NoBushAndCo]

10. Thanks, Excellent Thread n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. Great visuals

and a great explaination about the difference between floodwalls and levees.

You are right, the levees didn't fail but the flood walls did.

[VolcanoJen]

19. Bob, these threads are incredible.

They're fascinating... I'm transfixed!

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with all of us... the pictures and your words make it seem closer to home.

[markus]

22. Did you see the article quoting the engineers whose homes back London Ave?

He said it clearly appeared that the underlying levee failed, and teh flodwall afterward. I don't have that story on my blog and need to track down where I saw it yesterday.

[bvar22]

25. I didn't see that,

and was unable to look for myself. Most of that is now covered by sandbags, and extensive washing would have occured after the collapse.
Undermining of the old "earth levee" that the new floodwall was constructed on WOULD INDEED cause a collapse.
ALL IN ALL, using a floodwall here was a BAD idea.

Can you send me a link to the engineers report or eyewitness report of a leak undermining the floodwall?
Greatly appreciated!

[bvar22]

26. I didn't see that,

and was unable to look for myself. Most of that is now covered by sandbags, and extensive washing would have occured after the collapse.
Undermining of the old "earth levee" that the new floodwall was constructed on WOULD INDEED cause a collapse.
ALL IN ALL, using a floodwall here was a BAD idea.

Can you send me a link to the engineers report or eyewitness report of a leak undermining the floodwall?
Greatly appreciated!

[markus]

30. Here's your link

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/nation/12847043.htm

NEW ORLEANS - (KRT) - Hurricane Katrina's storm surges were never high enough to go over the walls of two canals whose failure caused massive flooding in western and central New Orleans, investigators have determined.

The finding appears to eliminate an early theory about why walls failed along the 17th Street and London Avenue canals - that the concrete and steel walls were overtopped by floodwaters, which then scoured out the soil in back of the walls, leading to their collapse.

A team of engineers instead found evidence of a massive movement of the embankment underneath sections of the floodwalls. The water pushed one section of the 17th Street levee back 35 feet.

[Jacobin]

29. I saw that. Very interesting

pressure from the surge pushed the ground up behind the wall and the wall toppled.

Could be. Reminds me of the mud lumps at South Pass. Weird shit happens with mud and pressure and water

[donheld]

27. Very good website for this

http://www.kathryncramer.com/kathryn_cramer/2005/08/new_orleans_lev.html

After looking around her site, it appears she a lefty like us.

[Jacobin]

28. I'm going Saturday for the first time

to check on an apt in the Quarter I use and to meet with a client on a damage claim.

I'll post what I see and try to get pics also.