A religious question for Christians that has always confused me

[Toots]

If Jesus is actually God or even the Son of God why would he need to be Baptised? Wasn't Jesus supposed to be completely without sin?

[MercutioATC]

1. Shhhhhh!

You're making sense.

;)

[QuettaKid]

3. even better....the one that always bugs me

If heaven is so freaking great....GO ALREADY!!! what's with all the tears at funerals?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. There has been an effort for years

in my church to make funerals into celebrations. We use white vestments on the altar, the priest, the casket.

Nice idea..kind of hard to pull off.

I like the way they do it in New Orleans with the dirge before the funeral and party all the way home.

In my family we definitely do the party part up real well.

[madokie]

30. With my brothers and sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles,

it always serious. With my immediate family, friends, acquaintances and neighbors it's :party:
:toast:

[Bluerthanblue]

16. when you come right down to it-

those tears, are really for us- regardless of wether we believe in 'heaven' or not- religious or not-

having shed many, many a tear, because of the holes left in my life by beloved ones who no longer share this world with me,- it is those of us that are left here, who grieve.

A very special friend of mine and I used to laugh at sympathy cards, saying if anyone wasn't suicidal to begin with, a trip down the sympathy card isle would be a good begining.-

[Bridget Burke]

19. Some people will actually miss the departed.

Even if they believe that there is a better place after life, they are sad that someone they loved is out of their own lives.

[shrike]

29. When you lose someone you love

you cry. A very human reaction.

[Bellamia]

34. Tears at funerals

are an expression of a persons loss and grief.....IMO........has nothing to do with the "departed."

[dickthegrouch]

44. Where, exactly, did human #5 come from?

Adam + Eve = Cain + Abel

Abel was murdered and Cain banished.

So how did the human race survive?

[yppahemnkm]

61. Because we are sad !

The tears are for us, because we are sad that a loved one is gone, regardless if their sole is in a better place, we still miss them very much.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

4. There are plenty of things that don't make sense in the Bible, but this is

not of them.

Acutally, it is taught that Jesus DIDN'T need to be baptized, but was as a symbollic gesture...if even Jesus is baptized than even those that believe themselves to be truly pious should be aware that they are not perfect.

Sort of like a leading by example kinda thing.

[ret5hd]

2. Independant Thought Alert!!! (nt)

[Lerkfish]

5. do you really want to know?

or is this another treacle well?

tired of treacle wells here at DU.

If you really want to know, and aren't being snarky, let me know and I'll tell you what I understand about it.

[Toots]

13. Actually I do really want to know your opinion

I was always under the impression that Baptism was to wash away sin and to cleanse the soul. Jesus was perfect. It would seem counter productive to me to portrey him as needing his soul cleansed. He could and did lead by example in all things but this one just seems to be a LIE. Jesus would not LIE and yet he went through a baptising "for show" which to me is the same thing as a LIE. sort of how the Bush* Administration does things "for show". No real substance only the "appearance" of such.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

20. Those are two completely different examples...

And I don't think you're going to get very far comparing Bush to Jesus.

[Toots]

25. When a person does something for show only IMO it is a LIE

No matter who does it, either Bush* or Jesus.

[Lerkfish]

26. You mean like pretending to ask a sincere question when you don't

care about anyone else's answer but your own.


wouldn't that be for "show"? Wouldn't that make such a person a LIAR?

:shrug:

[Toots]

45. You make quick assumptions

I asked a sincere question and I do not already have my mind made up on the question itself. I do have my mind made up on what I believe represents an untruth. I am asking why a baptism for show only does not represent an untruth. I would love to hear your reasoning to that question and that question alone. There could be a very rational reason of which I have not thought of. The only reason I even mentioned the bush* Administration is because that is their complete MO. "For Appearance Sake" If for example Jesus was just showing how to do the baptism it would be instructional but baptism had been happening for quite some time before Jesus came along. I truly do not get it. I don't want to cast any doubts upon Jesus but upon the writings about him. Are you absolutely sure every single thing in the Bible is absolute truth? I am not although I believe much of what the Bible says is a good way to live one's life. There are portions I have questions about and would love rational and reasoned explanations if possible. I realize a lot of the stuff in the Bible has to be taken on faith and I am okay with that but I do not like illogic.

[Lerkfish]

46. other posts further down have already ably answered you, then...if

your question was indeed sincere.

However...

John the Baptist's baptisms were not for absolution of sins. The Jews had animal sacrifices to do that, if you'll recall. They believed the only way to expiate sin was to make a proper sacrifice, and there must be spilling of blood.
You're applying current thinking to ancient practice and then finding incongruities because they differ chronistically rather than thematically.

Baptism is not even now actually for the expiation of sin, but for the consecration of the believer, to surrender themselves in whole to God, and to ackknowledge who he is.
It is a form of swearing fealty and dedication...in that way, even a sinless person can still swear fealty and honor to God.
Sin is no prerequisite to being baptized, however, there are none of us without sin...that is just what we are.

You are incorrect to think of baptism as washing away sin...it does not. It is the belief that Jesus offered himself as the supreme sacrifice..the shedding of blood, to expiate the sins of ALL for ALL time. There is no need to cleanse ourselves of sin individually...that's where grace comes in: we have ALREADY been cleansed by the blood of the lamb of God.
Baptism is merely the acceptance, on our end, of christ has already done to remove our sin.

If you will, it is an outward symbolic token for an inward change. It is not the change itself.

Since baptism now reflects what Christ did AFTER he was crucified and then resurrected, the meaning of baptism is obviously different when Christ was baptized, and afterwards as it was employed by the early church.

You make quick assumptions yourself, calling it "for show" or a LIE.
You can either accept what I'm telling you, or reject it out of hand, your choice, but I have answered your question.

[Lerkfish]

62. so, I give you an answer and dry up and blow away? typical

treacle wells.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. You said

Jesus would not LIE and yet he went through a baptising "for show"


And to me you hit it spot on. I think Jesus was a very human man who was sent to put a human face on an infinite spirit (God) that was completely unfathomable to finate human beings. Much of what he did was "for show" as in providing a physical example to very literal humans. He also spoke in parables, which are just storied example.

Now, I'm not going to equate ANYTHING about Jesus to the Bush administration. I can't follow you down that path. But I applaud your questioning.

[Lerkfish]

24. you want my opinion on what you consider a LIE?

how does that work? You've already decided it was a LIE.
My opinion is superfluous to your foregone conclusion.

therefore: another treacle well.

no thanks.

[FreedomAngel82]

49. While it's true about about baptism

With Jesus I think it was more to show leadership with it. The first half of Romans chapter six states what baptism is about. In Mark 16:16 he tells also what baptism is about. To us it's to wash away our sins since we aren't perfect but Jesus was. After Jesus was baptized remember a voice came out and said God was pleased with what action Jesus took.

[seabeyond]

6. god is omni present. in all. including jesus and me and you

they realization of this the aware of this is baptized, .... regardless of ceremony. jesus was tempted to sin, when he came to the awareness of god son, ergo god him,.......and once in that awareness, temptation came, he passed. he was sin free. yet in the understanding god is love, jesus showed us how to walk with god, of god. and it is not in perfection. it is absolute imperfection, the perfection is love. being perfectly imperfect in love

people are taking literally, they are not in awareness of their one wit god. they are searching and hunting for the god outside of them. so regardless that they say they are reborn they dont get it. is that a sin, no it is the non perfect, it is non aware. but wrong they are

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. Ever since I was a child

when I pray, I pray "inside" and not outside. I never have visualized God in a nightgown way up there.

[seabeyond]

22. jesus does not in front of. he doesnt walk behind

he is always right next to. hand in hand

how do we want to walk with our children. i do not walk in front of to lead, i dont walk behind either, they are kind enough to allow me to walk beside

me too...... if i pray at all it is a thank you for all the beauty and love. what do i have to ask for, i create.

[shrike]

28. I pray for strength

And that's about it. Never pray for favors, never pray for victories, etc. That's up to me.

I've been through some very difficult times in my life, so the strength has come from somewhere. I guess I'll never be egotistical enough to say it all came from myself. Unfortunately, very little of it came from other people. The first 35 years of my life were filled with people who meant me harm; fortunately, I'm away from them now.

[seabeyond]

32. look at all the strength you have had 35 years.

good for you. is it ego to acknowledge survival. ego tells you a false story, so it is needed. i see no false story in your experience. you pay hommage to the outside god, by giving it to your inside god that you are. all one. that is not ego. for you to know your strength is to empower self, empower love ultimately,.....which is what it is all about, be it outside or inside.

there is no seperation. you are allowed to shine. jesus asked you to shine. take that bushel off and shine. that is removing ego, and you are allowed to be that grand. in your grand, is love and lite and it grows and shines. so yes, you get to be huge, as do i and all. that is not ego, that is a win all, no losers

that is christ conscious. god does NOT see that as less. but an honoring

[seabeyond]

35. how about this interpretation of second coming

the awakening of christ conscious in all of us, become one. in that .... where will the Apocalypse be even when christ rises one, all of us. there would be no fire and hailstorm, brim storm. after all jesus has already died for our sins, it is forgiven. it is all done, we just have to come to realizations. not even close to being ending of time, we all have so much further to travel before we become one.

[DoYouEverWonder]

40. I do not believe

that the second coming is about one guy returning on a throne to reclaim his kingdom or any of that.

To me, the second coming is about humanity rediscovering that the christ energy is within us all and that we will be the second coming when enough people wake up and realize that god is in us all.

Seems we are on the same wavelength?

[seabeyond]

42. kuuuuul....

yup. that was fun

[FreedomAngel82]

50. Yes

And right after he was baptized he went into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. When you are baptized you receieve the gift of the Holy Spirit as well. Acts 2:38&39-
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. The early christians

believed that god is in all of us and that Jesus was a great teacher and leader but not necessarily that he was above us. Hence the baptism of Jesus by John was another sign that Jesus really was just a regular guy.

[seabeyond]

14. wrong place

[Bellamia]

36. I'll buy that!

A regular guy indeed...except, except..... he got further along the path of enlightenment than most. He set an example that calls us to be our best.

Edit: Spelling

[FreedomAngel82]

51. Yes

Even Jesus himself didn't want to be placed high. One time someone tried to call him "rabbi" and he didn't even like that. In the eyes of God through Christ we're all equal. Nobody is more important. Not even Mary the mother of Christ. Christ wanted to obey the call as well.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. He was baptized

into his ministry (by his cousin) when he was what, about 30? And after that the sacrament of Baptism was used as ritual for new Christians.

I often wondered whether the apostles were baptized by John after he was. I'm not up on all that history.

I don't actually know if the Bible says he was without sin all his life, or just after he was Baptized. I also really don't know whether Baptism today is supposed to "wash" away one's sins, or just mark one as a Christian.

I see I really ought to learn some of this stuff!

[triguy46]

39. Depends, but in general...

baptsim is an act of obedience that symbolizes rebirth into our new relationship with Christ. The act itself does NOT wash away sin, rather our confession of faith affirms and confirms that we are sinners and will always sin. yet through faith in Christ, we receive grace, that is, unmerited favor in God's eyes. We cannot earn this favor because of our sinful nature, we only recieve it by grace.

[Bluerthanblue]

9. as an 'example' of how we should live, also

if as you asked Jesus is actually God, then He could never truly 'die'- because according to the bible, God is eternal, and NEVER dies- Nor could 'God' take on the sins of man, because God cannot be in the presence of sin, according to the bible-
That's where the mystery and 'faith' have to fill in the blanks-

I'm not a 'bible-inerrancy' believer- but I do believe Jesus was sent to teach us, and correct many of the misnomers being taught by the 'religious'.

He was a radical liberal unafraid of speaking his truth to those in power- those who claimed 'righteousness' but were their 'own' gods.

[FreedomAngel82]

52. Only his body died

His soul lives forever as do ours. Baptism is for your soul (see Romans chapter six) and not a body thing.

[Bridget Burke]

11. His Cousin John needed the work!

Yes, that's a snarky reply.

There are many resources to explain Christianity to the non-hostile curious. Even thoughtful folks on this thread who can help you out.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

15. Yes, he had a really old

mother to take care of, and he wasn't popular with Herod!

[bmbmd]

18. Matthew 3:10-12

10 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
14
11 John tried to prevent him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?"
15
Jesus said to him in reply, "Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed him.

[bryant69]

17. Why is this worth discussing in General Discussion as opposed to

the religion forum?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. When the question was asked

and as it developed, it took a politcal bent. I think that given the "born again" status of the new SCOTUS nominee, this is a definite general discussion issue.

After 911 I really tried to understand Islamic faith and culture, and I think that is pretty much what is happening here. Folks who are not part of the Christian religion have questions.

Those of us who are Christians are happy to share our opinions. I know that I personally am always eager to point out the not all Christians are fundamentalists right wing nuts!

[patcox2]

21. Jesus was originally a disciple of John the Baptist.

The gospels have a hard time explaining this, but its obvious if you read them critically. John the Baptist had established a pretty big cult-movement. Jesus was originally a follower of John, possibly even a high-ranking deputy. He then "splintered" off a new sect from the Baptist's sect. At the time the Gospels were written, the Baptist's sect was still large, perhaps larger than the christian sect. The Gospels tell the story of John saying "I am not fit to tie the shoes of the one who will come after me" is an obvious play to bring the baptist's followers into the christian sect.

[On the Road]

41. Strangely Enough, the John-the-Baptist Movement Still Exists in IRAQ

of all places, although the Mandeans (as they are called) are disappearing:

http://i-cias.com/e.o/mandeans.htm

I think groups like this can give clues about where Jesus came from and how he thought about the world.

[UncleSepp]

31. I've always wondered if he was really getting in the mikvah

It seems to me like the closest contemporary practice that would have something to do with ritual immersion and purification. Anybody know about connections between the ritual bath and baptism?

[On the Road]

38. John May Have Invented a One-Time Purification Ritual

but ritual bathing in cold water was not unknown. Some people associate it with the Essenes. Jesus' brother James was a priest in the Temple and according to some early church fathers bathed daily for purification purposes. Josephus writes that he was instructed by someone named Banos who also taught ritual bathing.

I really don't understand this issue very well, but the ritual bathing part was already alive and well and did not originate with John the Baptist.

[FreedomAngel82]

54. With baptism and a bathing ritual

I can't remember the verse now but there is a verse that tells baptism isn't about bathing and cleaning your skin. It's more about your soul as shown in Romans six. I think the bathing ritual was more about your body but I'm not for sure.

[On the Road]

59. Yes, It Certainly Was for Paul's Church

The Jewish milieu out of which Jesus came was much more focused on purity in a ritual and bodily sense than modern Christians are generally aware of. For example, early church father write about the first head of the church (Jesus' brother James) that he was a virgin, did not cut his hair, did not eat meat, did not wear wool (probably since it was produced by sexual intercourse and therefore unclean), and took regular ritual baths.

This really doesn't jibe very well with what you read in Acts. You can take your pick on which is a better indication of the early church's beliefs.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. Here it is about baptism

Romans chapter six verses one through fourteen:

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

[On the Road]

33. When Jesus Comes Out of the Water After Being Baptized

there is a voice from heaven. The version in the Gospel of Matthew generally used in churches is: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Mt 3:17). Not much content other than announcing Jesus' identity to the crowds.

There is another version which was used by the early Hebrew church, and which is probably more accurate. In this version,the voice from heaven quotes Psalm 2 : 7 (which is quoted several other times in regard to Jesus), saying: "You are My Son, today I have begotten You”. This implies that Jesus was an ordinary person who became the Messiah only when he was baptised.

Obviously, the early Gentile church couldn't reconcile this version with Jesus being part of the Trinity. So it was changed to something more acceptable. This is what I think happenned -- it wouldn't have been the only time.

[FreedomAngel82]

55. Perhaps with that

Jesus didn't have that happen until he recieved the holy spirit which, according to Acts chapter two, states comes when you are baptized.

[On the Road]

58. Personally, I Think Belief in the Holy Spirit Came Along with Paul

Jews have tended to think of the Trinity as a form of polytheism, and I would imagine that early Jewish Christians would as well.

Messiahs were generally thought of as human agents of God who offered political deliverance from enemies. I don't believe Jesus' "adoption" by God was thought of as changing his status as a man.

[triguy46]

37. As an act of obedience to the Father. n/t

[Richard D]

43. There is another side to the baptism issue . . .

. . . and that is the origin of baptism. From what I understand the baptism ritual may have originated in Africa, where it was a Water Spirit ritual to both connect one to the water spirits and to act both as a purification rite and as a rite of renewal and rebirth. It was not part of the Jewish tradition at the time at all, though there may have been some odd connection to the ceremony of the Mikvah, though the Mikvah was and is for women. This may confirm the origin of the baptism rite as a direct offshoot of the African Water Spirit ritual.

As such, it would make sense that Jesus was baptized. It marked the moment in his life when he went public and accepted his role. Prior to the baptism there was only the genealogy of Jesus, his birth, and the story of the three Kings and of Herod. Up to that time, no words spoken by Jesus had been recorded, or at least survived to be included in the bible.

So the baptism marked a significant and irrevocable turning point in Jesus's life. If it were a movie or a hero story, it would be that moment when Act 1 ends and Act 2 begins, when the hero makes that choice that commits him or her to the hero's path.

Matthew 13: Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

P.S. I write the above not as a bible scholar nor as a Christian. I am neither.

[FreedomAngel82]

57. Yes

Peter and Paul preached about baptsim and told how it's to wash away your sins and be cleansed so that's correct. In John chapter three Jesus states: 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

So I think from this scripture it goes along with what you are saying. I've had many say that he is talking about just being born from your mothers womb but I think it goes along more-so of what you're talking about.

[texpatriot2004]

47. I think his baptism was for others, not him. I see it as symbolic...

it was a sign for others that he was who he was. The whole dove thing flying over him, a sign of peace. I don't know what the religious theories are here I am not a trained theologian. That's just my view.

[FreedomAngel82]

48. Good question

Read about John the Baptist and what he did. I think Jesus could've done baptism to show the importance or something. I'm not sure myself. But check out Romans 6 for more about baptism and what it's about.

[Leftist_Warrior]

56. Nothing in the bible

makes much sense. It's a book of fairy tales. Believing in those stories would be like reading a comic book and thinking Spiderman is real.

[ozarkvet]

60. Don't forget the Jewish Origin of Baptism

While we think of Baptism (in particular, dunking kind practiced by Baptists) as a Christian Rite, it was actually Jewish in origin. In fact, today, converts to Orthodox Judaism undergo a dunking baptism to be "re-born" (yes, that too!) as a Jew.

Jesus was 30, this was the time for rabbis to be symbolically prepared for public service, and (by many Jewish sects of the day, anyway) such a ritual cleansing was necessary before beginning service.

Remember Jesus was to follow the Law to the letter.

This being arguably part of the Law, so it was done.

[Darth Lib]

63. It wasn't that Jesus needed to be Baptized the point was to give

John the Baptist te oppertuntity to preform the act of Baptismal on Him.