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people cheat -- but would they STEAL ELECTIONS?

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:03 PM
Original message
people cheat -- but would they STEAL ELECTIONS?
Which is the more believable claim:

(i) All people are totally honest and when offered opportunity, motive and access to steal vast amounts of money and power -- they will abstain.
(ii) Some people are not-honest, and when given the opportunity, motive and access -- will steal in order to attain vast amounts of money and power.

If you're not worried about Election Fraud, (vote stealing, election rigging...whatever) then you are probably one of the honest people who would abstain if given opportunity, motive and access to steal vast amounts of money and power.

Given that YOU are an honest person, which is more realistic:
(i) that "all people" are like you and the ones who aren't are statistical noise; or
(ii) Not everyone is like you, and cheating in order to attain vast amounts of money and power is a possibility.

Election Fraud isn't a conspiracy theory, like little green men or Santa Claus (which is a real conspiracy, I have proof). It's a tried and true American tradition.

I was a fresh young college student once studying political "science." I thought, "science! Finally how things REALLY work." Semester after semester of Plato's Republic, Seminars on Central America -- writing Amnesty International letters -- nothing. No science. No insight into "how things REALLY work."

Then I had my moment of clarity -- a Model UN Security Council competition -- where I really woke up from my slumber.

Literally.

The competition was in Boone, NC. My team was me and this chain-smoking cracker adult student -- lets just call her Tina. We were Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) and we sat next to the German Democratic Republic (GDR) -- this cute guy with sparkling green eyes and olive skin. Since we weren't permanent members and therefore likely wouldn't "win" the competition, we Germans made quick friends.

The first day we lost a shit-load of ground b/c we weren't in on the caucus action. It took us all day to realize it, but people were making deals behind the door for real shit -- cigarettes, money, sports tickets -- you name it. I was flabbergasted. The Soviet Union was the worst offender -- he was an asian evil genius who drove a muscle car. That night I went to the "social," and after seeing our faculty sponsor (an elderly ex-Anglican priest who looked like a Catholic Opus the Penguin) doing a rather good Mashed Potato to "Walk, Don't Run," I decided it was time for bed.

That night I awoke to the sound of Germany reuniting. My team mate apparently brought GDR back to the room to "caucus." They caucussed all damn nite. The caucussed on the bed. They caucussed on the floor. I eventually had to seek asylum in France's (this really sweet gay guy who travelled alone) double room.

By the end of the competition we had somehow taken Third Place. I gave Tina the ribbon. She deserved it. On the way back over the mountain we stopped at a "yard sale" sign attached to a school bus. It looked like the peddlers actually lived in this bus by the side of the road in Banner Elk. I bought a yellow plastic peace symbol for 10 cents. I still have it.

There's all kinds of cheating.

Maybe you didn't see the long lines in 2004. Lines that are more than an hour long aren't just an inconvenience, they're an obstacle. When Florida scrubbed 92,000 minorities from voter rolls, it wasn't just bad accounting -- it threw the election. PRIVATIZED voting machines with "proprietary software" isn't a modern technological advance -- it's a cloak of secrecy.

People cheat.

Back in the day, my father-in-law -- "possum cop" in the mountain of Upper East Tennessee -- fought election fraud the good old-fashioned way: following the ballots. He has tales. Multiple ballot boxes. Dumped ballots. Polling place violence. And (it's an oldie, but a goodie) flyers in the Democratic hollars that advertised inaccurate election dates.

Not everyone is honest.

See with the eyes of a thief for just a moment. Walk into a store and shoplift whatever strikes your fancy. Hone your craft. Notice how "stores" lose their meaning as takers of your money. Now, they are simply a resource. You can pay or not pay. Stealing is a state of mind. You either do it or you don't. There's nothing in the aether that keeps you in line. You make the choice. For the "honest" person who doesn't steal, it's not part of your conceptual framework to see "the cracks."

But once you've SEEN it, you don't forget it.

People who are working their asses off to protect our elections are not "oppressing" you -- the campaigner. We need you to do your work and do it well -- but mark my words on this: YOU NEED US TO OUR WORK AND DO IT WELL.

If you are de-moralized in your campaigning because everywhere you turn there's people who believe our elections are rigged, then think for a moment how the voter feels.

Election Fraud didn't just rear it's head for the first time in 2000 -- it has a LONG history in the United States. If you don't believe me, then get out in your precinct and talk to some old-timers. Caucus. Talk to the bookies who hang out in dive bars -- they are the "groundhogs" and like to brag. Sometimes police officers will talk. Sometimes, people on the city council -- if you have something to offer them.

It's not a perfect world. Look for the cracks, caucus and trust no one.

How to Rig an Election in the United States
http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/voting.shtml

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dubyaD40web Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. Of course they'd steal elections. Ask any Chicagoan how it works...
Like Mayor Richard J. Daley used to say (when he wasn't sending out his thugs to intimidate business owners to only display Democratic campaign signs in their businesses) "vote early and often!"

Politics isn't just a contact sport, it's a blood sport. Until democrats realize that, we'll never win another important election again.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Harry Carey
The crazy old Cubs announcer used to say that after he died he wanted to be buried in Chicago so he could still vote.

New York did fine in the cheating department with Tammany Hall for generations. Was it Boss Plunkett (?) who said he wanted this slogan put on his tombstone, "He seen his opportunities, and he took them."
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. Wasn't it Roscoe Conkling who said that?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. I heard Harry Carey, but
I wouldn't be surprised if he was borrowing the phrase from someone else.

Harry was quite the entertainer.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. so TRUE -- whole fortunes are made and lost
blood sport -- exactly.
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. That's a clear and to the point way to put it
I agree, not everyone is honest, and it's hard to believe how dishonest they can be, if you fall on the honest side of things. Thanks for posting this!
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. kicked and recommended. n/t
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. This "BBV = Conspiracy Theory" talk has been with us since the issue...
Edited on Wed Oct-05-05 01:20 PM by Junkdrawer
first surfaced here after the 2002 elections. (Remember, the one where exit polls were turned off mid-election day and suddenly several key races did a 180 in the Republican's favor?)

Please don't confuse the idea that, on a given post, a fair number of "DUers" support a given point with the general consensus of DU. A "BBV = Conspiracy Theory" thread might have 5 or 6 posters that vigorously agree while a poll of DU would be 200 to 6 against that opinion.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. do you have a link for the 2002 mid-day glitch?
i have to run (literally, get on the dang treadmill), and will google (actually Clusty) later -- i'm working on mid-term issues and there's a lot to learn from 2002.

i DO remember lots of funkiness, especially in GA.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. The DU archives are down, but I Googled these...
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. delete -- double click hiccup
Edited on Wed Oct-05-05 01:28 PM by nashville_brook
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent post! I hope it opens the eyes of a few DUers around here
Edited on Wed Oct-05-05 01:22 PM by driver8
who think that those of us who believe that elections are stolen are trying to SUPRESS their votes!!

(Sounds like freeper logic to me)

Recommended!!
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you so much for keeping this issue fresh in people's minds
My worst nightmare is for people to act surprised or in denial in 2006 or 2008 when the fraud is getting worse and worse.

You are right in pointing out that there always has been, and always will be, some level of fraud in our elections. The scary thing is how easy it has become recently to mess with very large numbers of votes, and that there is NO way to audit those votes.

:kick:
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. gotta keep our eyes on the prize
2006 -- no more excuses!

i'm as guilty as the next with having the wind taken from my sails after 2004. election fraud brought me to DU in the first place.

not all cheating is illegal, either. imo -- having controversial, moralistic ballot issues tacked onto a general election is a form of cheating -- it front-loads the "sample."

the founders knew that participatory democracy meant eternal vigilance.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent post. Some think denying the election fraud will
somehow restore confidence in the vote. It is a mistake.

The only way to restore confidence in the vote is to clean up the election process and indict the criminals who corrupted it.
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melissinha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. here's where I see it
There has to be a way to get "them" to comment on it. Because there is no way that they could spin the actual argument of transparent elections.. What they are doing is avoiding the issue all together.

Now if we only had ENOUGH congressmen with balls to make this an issue one that they can't ignore.... for God's sake we can't leave it up to John Conyers, these fools think that we will be able to win without it. NOPE.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. a part of american's ever-diminishing expectations
it's not the people don't believe election fraud takes place...they simply accept it as a part of a so-called "flawed system." the "flaw" of racism, for exmaple, means that people aren't white and/or wealthy are routinely disenfranchised, as we saw in florida 2000. the dearly departed rehnquist actively worked to disenfranchise black and latino voters and was rewarded with a position on the supreme court for his efforts.
a psrt of the challenge re; election fraud is for people to stop accepting it as some kind of inevitable glitch...or a hallowed tradition.
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WHAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
15. NO...
maybe the people who deny vote fraud are complicit rather than naively honest...

now, that's out of the way...The new-fangled 2000 election was a new kind of sneaking...

Oh heck, maybe all of your premises are wrong...

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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. It's not just the fact that it's easy to rig elections: what's not
mentioned is that as things now stand, IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO CATCH ANYBODY WHO CHEATS. With 20% of the votes it's impossible to have an audit, and with the rest, since no audits are required, they are in effect almost never done.

So you not only have the motive and the opportunity, you have a situation where you can't ever get caught.

Add that to the mix and see if that sounds like a conspiracy theory or reality therapy.

In politics, whatever is possible will happen if there's no way to stop it.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. absolutely -- the story about the model UN security council competition...
i was talking to the hubby about this last nite. this is a story none of my friends know b/c this competition was on halloween weekend and all my friends were seeing my husband's (then boyfriend) band and having a monumental time...

i digress...

the competition was totally different than the way we did model UN at school because at school we couldn't cheat, i.e. bribe each other with goodies. it didn't even cross our minds.

REALITY THERAPY -- i love it! that's what i was getting at.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
19. In the old days they dug up the dead......today the remove the living
One touch of the key ah, so tempting and ah so easy. Sure beats canvassing graveyards for voters.
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melissinha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. yep people accept it
But the system itself has the potential to be transparent.... Brazil and India have good electronic voting.

THe fact that the PEOPLE have not demanded transparency is the problem. LEts face it, nothing gets done without demand. We are going through a really painful oil "crisis" right now which is finally forcing Detroit to work on hybrids..... It shouldn't have to be this way, but it is. It took a major disaster to expose the issue of poverty....

I just don't know how the people will have to be confronted with this problem for them to DEMAND transparency. Conyers cannot do this on his own, and the rest of them (with a few exceptions) are too busy with other things to protect themselves.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kick!!!
:kick:
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LSdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
23. Sad that dirty politics are often the best politics
But history shows that dirty tactics work.
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titoresque Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
24. great post! Kick!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
25. And, fair elections activists are harassed.
If there was nothing to hide, this would not happen. Look at what they did to Andy. And after that, other activists talked to me in confidence about harassment.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. i wonder if we have completely lost perspective on public v private
enterprise.

private enterprise can claim "proprietary secrets."

public enterprise cannot. not as long as we are a democracy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. BushCo has done it's best to blur those boundaries.
They are literally destroying our government.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-07-05 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. this is the bottom line
on electronic voting vulnerability...the problem of proprietary software with no public access. That has to change immediately.

The best way to go is still paper ballot--even if scanned electronically with random hand counts. So much cheaper and more reliable. The DREs are a disaster.

But you're right--WHATEVER the system, the PUBLIC sector has to be in control.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
28. kicking this great thread
:kick:
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. thanky -- i had fun writing it -- also
...i have a picture of of myself that looks just like the one in your sig line. so funny. do people still bathe babies in the kitchen sink? mine was circa 1966 and there was a pink bottle of dishwash soap in the pic, i have often wondered...hoped, actually that they used something else on my baby skin. :)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-07-05 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. I think sinks have gotten smaller and maybe babies, bigger.
I love this picture of Andy because he looked exactly the same as an adult.

lol
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-07-05 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
32. Is the Pope Catholic?
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