What Karl's immunity really means...

[Jackpine Radical]

You're immunized against self-incrimination so you can't take the 5th. If you then lie, you expose yourself to perjury charges for that. My bet is that Fitz expected Karl to lie under oath on the first three occasions and used the immunity provision to set a trap for him.

So assume Fitz has solid evidence that Rove lied on one or more of the first 3 occasions before the GJ. He now brings him back & uses the threat of the perjury charge to get the testimony he wants from Rove.

Also, remember that the immunity only means that they can't charge you based solely on your testimony. If they have other sources of information, they can use them to get you, but they have to show that those sources were developed independently of your testimony.

All in all, I think Rove is in a pretty tight spot. It will be interesting when it finally all comes out.

[tompayne1]

1. if rove sold out the rest of the adminsistration so he could get a reduced

sentence. that would be priceless.

[bleever]

2. I second that. n/t

[Gman]

3. Rove is also well aware, and to quote someone about Bush/Cheney in general

"You don't fuck with these people." Rove is well aware of what he's dealing with. He has to figure he's either in jail for as long as it takes Bush to pardon him, or he's a dead man. Rove would never live long enough to testify against anyone including Bush and/or Cheney and he is very well aware of it. Rove knows what happened to Paul Wellstone and he also knows what happened to Mel Carnahan. Hell, he consulted on Ashcroft's Senate reelection race. I think he'll wait around for the pardon. And there WILL be a pardon, just like daddy pardoned all the Iran-Contra felons.

[raysr]

6. He's got a "get out of jail free" card

remember. Bush won't let him go down, he couldn't function w/o him!

[Jackpine Radical]

12. The political cost of a Rove pardon might be more than Bush is willing

to pay.

[hang a left]

4. I don't think he's just looking at perjury....

I would imagine (read that:hope)

Conspiracy
Obstruction
Conspiracy to Suborn
Perjury

[jim3775]

5. Rove doesn't have immunity

"Federal prosecutors have accepted an offer from presidential adviser Karl Rove to give 11th-hour testimony in the case of a CIA officer’s leaked identity but have warned they cannot guarantee he won’t be indicted, according to people directly familiar with the investigation."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20051006/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_rove_1

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. Come on hour 12!

Mama needs a new pair of shoes!

[Jackpine Radical]

10. My understanding is that he had immunity for his testimony

on the 1st 3 appearances before the GJ but not for tomorrow. Note also, as I mentioned in the OP, that immunity for testimony is not the same thing as immunity from prosecution if they can build the case against you in other ways.

[Garbo 2004]

14. I can't find any reference that Rove ever testified with immunity. The

only difference with this testimony is that he has been warned in writing that there is no guarantee that he won't be indicted. That doesn't mean he previously he had immunity.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

15. It's the difference between "transactional" immunity and "use" immunity

If the prosecutor gives the witness immunity, he can be compelled to testify and can't assert the 5th. It can either be "transactional immunity" or "use immunity". Transactional immunity gives the witness immunity from prosecution for crimes related to the testimony. Use immunity doesn't provide the witness with immunity from prosecution, but only immunity from having his testimony used against him, as well as immunity from use against him of any other evidence derived solely from that testimony.

[hlthe2b]

13. Correct.... Rove does NOT have immunity.

[H2O Man]

16. Right.

He doesn't now, and he did not in his other three times in front of the grand jury. What he did have was what he believed was the safety of not being a target of the probe. That status appears to have changed.

When you read the articles about Rove, keep in mind that his defense team is playing a high-risk game now. One is speaking on the record, while another is an unidentified source. The prosecutor is well aware of which attorneys are talking to the press, of course, including the off the record fellows.

Rove is attempting to shift focus onto the VP's office. I would be interested in JackPine Radical's thoughts on why an investigator might look at Rove's personality make-up, as opposed to Libby's, and say, "This is the fellow we can break. Let's put the pressure on this guy!"

In many ways, it is the same as if the town police catch four high school boys for some petty crime, and want to get one to confess and implicate the others. Police on the higher levels do this to break and organized crime ring. There are traits that Karl has that others in the administration do not, and which identify him as the weak link.

[opihimoimoi]

7. Rove is sweating in deluge like proportions, flood like conditions

exist

Drool Cup long dried up... no drooling for power now....only how to escape JAIL.....

[ashling]

9. But TurdBlossom doesn't have immunity

does he?

The Ap story - and others - that I saw said that he was on his own.

[Jackpine Radical]

11. Not tomorrow, he doesn't.