California Father Wants To Change Entire 'Pledge'

[The Straight Story]

California Father Wants To Change Entire 'Pledge'

SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- A man who is fighting to get the words "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance was back in federal court Wednesday, making some surprising comments about the case.

Although the hearing was a procedural matter with no key rulings, Michael Newdow said that if he is successful in having the words removed from the pledge at the U.S. Supreme Court level, it still wouldn't be enough.

Newdow believes that it is time to get rid of the old Pledge of Allegiance altogether. He said that it's impractical to just change the pledge because children will continue to say "under God" out of habit or under protest.

"The whole point of the pledge was to unify the students, and it's not," Newdow said outside the hearing Wednesday. "(The pledge) has become divisive, not so much because it has been the atheists who have become discriminated (against), and they don't have so much of a voice. But if the Christians and the people who believe in God want to start throwing 'God' in there, the pledge will be continuing 'one nation indivisible,' while someone is saying 'under God.' And I think it's going to be a mess, and I think we're going to have to get rid of it."

http://www.local6.com/education/5065932/detail.html

[Swamp Rat]

1. E Plebnista

[SammyBlue]

8. Fine, if we must say a pledge. how does this one sound, Michael?

"I pledge allegance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic that it created. . .one nation, indivisible, with liberty and freedom for all."

Any problems, Michael?

[The Magistrate]

2. This Fellow, Mr. Story

Seems to have much more leisure available than he can profitably use....

[rpannier]

5. Agreed 100%

He needs to get a life.

[patricia92243]

21. Yep. Seems like he enjoyed his 15 minutes of fame so well that he wants t

to extend it.

[The Straight Story]

46. Yes Indeed (nt)

[lvx35]

3. Dude. Pause. Let them say "under god" while you don't.

I firmly support the separation of church and state, but this cause is silly when taken this far. Creating that huge and divisive debate about what we say after "one nation indivisible" is stupid. Let the athiests pause and not say "under god, let the religious people say what they want in the pause. The school is no longer making students say "god". Problem solved.

[BlueEyedSon]

28. It doesn't belong there. It was added in the 50's. Get it out.

[baldguy]

39. That wouldn't be good enough for the christo-fascists

[bluestateguy]

4. I wish this guy would find something useful to do with his time

It would be nice if a man with his passion could help us fight against this war, rather than hopeless causes like the Pledge that only serve to alienate Middle America.

[PerpetualWinter]

7. I think it goes far deeper than that though...

The addition of "under God" in the pledge has never faced full evaluation by the courts. Hence it has never faced the 3 Prong Lemon Test. It would not pass it. We cannot allow the government to pick and choose when to make sure that legislation passes that test. If we do then the whole concept of the Test can be challenged further and the wall of seperation between church and state crumbles further. Its a shame that it alienates middle America, but standing for the principles laid out in the Constitution far outweighs trying to not offend people.

[NMMNG]

6. Oh please

:eyes:

Yes, get rid of "under god". It wasn't in the original Pledge and shouldn't have been added in the first place. It should be removed. However this craziness about making a whole new pledge just because some kids might still say "under god" is ridiculous. If incoming kids aren't taught it, eventually it will die off.

Newdow needs to get a job.

[bliss_eternal]

17. I agree!

Plus that, I find it silly to 'pledge allegiance' to a THING anyway. I know what it represents, I get that it's a gesture. I did it all through school and never gave it a second guess. If I was somewhere and I was asked to do it, I probably would--without even thinking about it.

But honestly, I just think it's silly to say a bunch of words--to a flag, an item, a thing.

Just my .02...

:hi: Hi Buffy!

[Dorian Gray]

31. Agree...

He's taking the fight too far. It's one thing to remove the necessity of saying "under God," it's another to change the Pledge all together.

[SammyBlue]

9. Self delete

Posted my comments twice. . .my computer's being dumb.

[DaveColorado]

10. While I agree that "under god" shouldn't be in the pledge

I feel that this is not a worthy cause in which to expend any political capital, and indeed this will ultimately hurt liberals at the ballot box more than anything.

[Larkspur]

11. Ironically it was a Christian group, the Jehovah Witnesses, who protested

the Old Pledge of Allegience, not because it did not have "god" in it but because they saw it as a form of blasphemy against their belief that their "god" is the only one to whom that they can pledge their allegience to.

And of course the whole irony about the Pledge is that it was written by a Christian minister who did not put "god" in it but who wanted it to promote unity based upon the ideals that this nation was founded upon.

When I say the Pledge at the beginning of our Dem Town Committee meetings I intentionally insert "under the Constitution" where "under god" is.

[KG]

12. even better, let's get rid of any kind of pledge of alligence altogether

[Zynx]

36. Well, it certainly does smell of fascism. I would be in favor of such

a move.

[ClintonTyree]

13. My proposal.....

when you get to the "god" part just say ""FSM"..indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". Problem solved, the Flying Spaghetti Monster gets his due and everyone's happy.
I find the pledge pretty creepy anyway. A nationalistic propaganda exercise pledging allegiance to a flag and country that is rapidly becoming a fascist state is not my idea of the perfect way to start my day. I'd rather do some nice stretching exercises, have a good cup of coffee and check in at DU any day.

[XanaDUer]

14. Amen.

...

[ClintonTyree]

16. That's, "Ramen"......

nice to see another fellow pastafarian here. It's taking over the world, I swear. ;)

[XanaDUer]

20. Yes.

:)

[nonconformist]

42. I feel touched by his noodley appendage. nt

[B Calm]

15. I been using an ink pen and marking out the words In God We

Trust on my paper money, and writing IMPEACH BUSH in its place.

I think this guy is just giving fuel for the right and their wedge issues. Republicans can't win with out their wedge issues.

[NMMNG]

18. Oooh, I like that idea

I'm going to start doing that :evilgrin:.

[B Calm]

19. Sometimes I'll take it even a step further and write along the edges

of the paper money my sig line, Any person who works for a paycheck and votes for republicans, shot their-self in the foot to entertain the boss! Whats real nice, vending machines still accept the money, ha.

[WildClarySage]

22. I still take issue wiith minors pledging anything. It's meaningless

since they don't really understand what they are pledging (allegiance) or to whom they are pledging (I remember wondering, as a kid, who "Richard Stands" was, and why I was pledging something to him.) If the pledge has any meaning, it needs to be taken by those who understand what it involves and who have considered what it means. Otherwise, it's nothing but brainwashed conditioning and holds no importance.

[Nobody]

27. If I don't believe in the deity I'm pledging to does that invalidate

the oath?

To me it does.

It's like saying that you bet a billion dollars that X will happen and when Y happens instead, you don't owe someone a billion dollars that you don't have and could never earn in one lifetime anyway. A meaningless bet and an empty oath.

[Rowdyboy]

23. How many more elections must we lost fighting for this idiocy?

Who give a damn. Say the pledge, don't say the pledge; say "under God", don't day "under God". Who on earth gives a shit except Republican campaign strategists.

Newdow needs to get a life before he finishes off the Democratic party.

[WillParkinson]

26. Rowdyboy....

If this is the only thing that people base the Democratic party on then we're in worse shape than previously thought.

Michael Newdow has every right to do what he is doing if this is what he truly believes. For us to deny him that right isn't being at all Democratic.

Also for you to say that we lose elections because of this is very shortsighted, at best. We lose elections because of a multitude of things, no just one.

You ask a number of people why Dems lost the last election and you're going to get a number of answers.

1) Values
2) Gay Marriages
3) Anti-War

Etc.

Please don't say it's atheism that causes us to lose elections. That would be like me saying gay rights. Neither is fair nor correct.

[Rowdyboy]

24. dupe

dupe

[izzie]

25. Each morning we also put up the flag. Why not go to that?

We did that at camp and grade school. I do know that flags are left up all night now but we always had to take them down. Then the classes where I went to school were very small and I was in grade school and camp during WW2, and lived in a part of Maine that had black outs or gray outs and the CG walked a beat along the ocean. We also had stamps for gas, shoes, meat etc.So maybe the whole thing was more important to us.

[Jim Sagle]

29. Michael Newdow ain't nuthin' but shit.

[Az]

37. Ok, that is it... Michael Newdow is doing the work others lack the spine

to do. You call him shit. He is standing up for the constitution. He is fighting the good fight. And cowards like you call him shit. Shame on you.

Tell ya what. Lets just back away from every fight that isn't comfortable and an easy win. Lets just let the religious right have this land. Its too hard facing them anyway. We don't dare speak up for whats right against them because we will just rile them up. And we don't want that.

Better give up on the gays too. Women's rights? Better let them go while we are at it. Too messy. Lets just give up and wait for something we can win.

I swear. Its disgusting. Someone stands up for the constitution and people run for the hills. That is what a spine looks like. That is why Dems are having such a hard time because no one trusts a spineless weasle.

[Jim Sagle]

48. What the fuck right does some worthless sonofabitch with WAY too much

time on his hands have to TELL A WHOLE NATION how to pledge allegiance?

[mr blur]

30. Just curious - why do you need such a thing anyway?

Everybody knows where they live.

[unblock]

32. if you cleaned it up, you could make it compulsory

barnette v. west virginia determined that pledging allegience to a flag was offensive to jehovah's witnesses and therefore can't be made compulsory. the "under god" part just makes it even more obviously offensive to others group (atheists, agnostics, and non-monotheists such as buddhists and i'd guess wiccans).


but if the right wings just cleaned it up, they could make it totally compulsory, which is really what the they want, isn't it?

[Zynx]

35. Very interesting point about unintended consequences.

If it was cleaned up to be a totally non-offensive statement, various school districts could say, "You're going to say the pledge loud and proud and you're going to like it, or else.".

[johnnie]

33. This guy needs a job or something

Honestly, I don't give a shit if they say "Under God", "Undercover", "Under Over", "Underwear" or "Under you wife". The pledge to a flag is ridiculous to even be fighting about. The pledge was something they started in some elementary school somewhere as some contest or something and other schools picked up on it. It isn't part of our Constitution and it isn't an official oath to America. It has just become another bullshit topic of conversation to divide people and waste time in the courts.

Here is the thing I don't get about the religious aspect of it. The fundies are fighting like hell to keep "Under God" in the pledge so they can have every child across the United States to all stand up, put their hand on their heart and swear an oath to a flag. Yet these same people claim to follow the 10 commandments. Here are a few:

I) THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GOD'S BEFORE ME.

Money isn't enough for them to worship, they also want people to pledge their allegiances to a flag.

II) THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE OR ANY LIKENESS OF ANY THING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE, OR THAT IS IN THE EARTH BENEATH, OR THAT IS IN THE WATER UNDER THE EARTH: THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD, VISITING THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHERS UPON THE CHILDREN UNTO THE THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATION OF THEM THAT HATE ME;

Depending on the way you look at it, to me it basically states that you shouldn't have any image besides one of God (whatever that is) and then bow (pledge) before it nor serve it.

And then:

III) THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN; FOR THE LORD WILL NOT HOLD HIM GUILTLESS THAT TAKETH HIS NAME IN VAIN.

I just wonder if using God's name in a pledge to a flag for the vanity of the country goes against this one?

Of course interpretation is key to these.


So...enough with the fucking pledge already.

[captain beyond]

34. I do not - - - -

do pledgeses to flags.

[newyawker99]

40. Hi captain beyond!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[captain beyond]

44. thank you

[KittyWampus]

38. I think a secret hand shake would be much more fun, don't you?

[PerpetualWinter]

41. Self delete duplicate post

Got an error last night didn't realize I already posted it.

[npincus]

43. this kind of shit only rallies the Fundies

Get a life, Newdow.

[Straight Shooter]

45. I am curious to see similar pledges to a piece of cloth in other countries

When I was a kid, I just concentrated on remembering the words. It didn't occur to me I was being brainwashed.

As an adult, I always loved the colors of the flag, the design of the flag. I really didn't associate it with love of country per se.

Now I cringe when I see the flag. 90 percent of the people who fly it in my area are rabid war-mongering bushies. I feel that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is slowly becoming symbolic of supporting that which the author of the PoA never intended for it to support.

[RandomKoolzip]

47. Of all the important stuff that the left is fighting for: Healthcare,

fair elections, Hurricane relief, environmental protection, etc. Whay is THIS unimportant crap getting the publicity?!

Jeez, could it be the media framing our message for us around a well-known wedge issue?

Nah.