Victims of Communism Memorial Planned - Article

[moddemny]

Interesting article relevant to the ANSWER debate (or more like non -debate for those who already know their history and what ANSWER stands for) that went on.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051006/ap_on_go_ot/communism_memorial


"WASHINGTON - Officials gave initial approval Thursday to a memorial for victims of communist regimes that would be located within sight of one of the icons of democracy — the Capitol.

The 90-square-foot monument would be built on National Park Service land one block west of the Capitol. A central feature will be a bronze Goddess of Democracy statue similar to the papier-mache and Styrofoam statue erected by pro-democracy students in Beijing's Tiananmen Square during 1989 demonstrations.

The National Capital Planning Commission voted unanimously to give preliminary approval to the "Victims of Communism Memorial."

"Its location, with views of the U.S. Capitol, a world-renowned symbol of democracy, is an appropriate setting in which to remember the victims of tyranny," said John V. Cogbill, chairman of the federal agency that oversees planning in the District of Columbia and nearby Maryland and Virginia suburbs.

The memorial will honor an estimated 100 million people killed or tortured under communist rule.

"They include those who died in Stalinist purges, Mao Zedong's cultural revolution, or under the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia," said Lee Edwards, a fellow with the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank based in Washington"




Key Fact:

"100 million people killed or tortured under communist rule"

[moddemny]

1. Kick.....

...

[ComerPerro]

2. Stalin: a right winger who pretended to embrace communism

because it was the best means for his rise to power.

[the_spectator]

9. Trotskyite!

;)

[enigma000]

3. I guess it would also serve as a memorial for the Cold War

Mind you there is a Vietnam memorial. But I think a 40 year long Cold War should have some memorial in Washington.

[JanMichael]

16. Does the Vietnam Memorial honor the unspeakable numbers of dead...

...Vietnamese and other SE Asians?

[cynatnite]

4. I'm not comfortable with this...

The right calls anyone on the left communists and even extends it to anyone who disagrees with them.

[moddemny]

8. The right shouldn't spin the defintion of Communism

to include everyone on the left and many on the left shouldn't be trying to deny the atrocities of Communism and the obvious failures.

[manic expression]

24. Like who?

scarcely anyone denies the reality of the USSR.

However, the Soviet Union was neither socialist nor Marxist. Leftists are correct to argue that the USSR was not leftist. It was a right wing government.

[moddemny]

25. "Like who? scarcely anyone denies the reality of the USSR."

You must have missed all those ANSWER debates. Having a Che Guevara (Che- another scumbag Communist thug) avatar wouldn't really make you an objective observer though.

[manic expression]

51. Right...

Really? ANSWER now represents the left? :eyes: The people in ANSWER who do what you say are not so numerous. Try not to generalize...thanks.

And sure, just "another scumbag Communist thug" who overthrew tyranny and injustice. Batista was a REAL scumbag thug who was backed by your beloved Uncle Sam. Now there is justice and equality in Cuba, as there should be. Next, you'll tell me that FMLN is a bunch of thugs, when in reality, they fought against oppression and inequity; today, El Salvador is INFINITELY better than before the revolution (people actually own some of the land they work! They are not serfs! What a concept!). If you are so misled as to oppose and scorn those who have fought and are fighting for justice and equality, that is beyond wrong.

...Perhaps if you knew the first thing about Cuba or what you're talking about, your opinion might amount to more than petty delusion. Here: read up (wipe the kool-aid off your lips and get a grip on the truth):

Before the 1959 revolution
• 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
• More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
• 85% had no inside running water.
• 91% had no electricity.
• There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.
• More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.
• Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.
• The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.
• 45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.
• 25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
• 1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).
• 27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.
• Racial discrimination was widespread.
• The public school system had deteriorated badly.
• Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.
• Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.



No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. All of the people of Cuba worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.

Poll: Americans don't support Cuban Sanctions
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=770

[moddemny]

60. ANSWER was one example......

..... and I don't like bringing up ugly episodes (or other examples) because people will accuse me of being a right winger. Unfortunately ANSWER does enjoy broader support in some circles. Your own post sadly is proof of the denial of the reality of Communism. Stalin and Castro are in many ways the same sh*t, one was better at killing and torture than the other, that's it. They both took their countries down dark roads. Batista was a tyrant and replacing one tyrant with another is not the solution to Cuba's problems. The bulk of the 1.3 million Cubans that live in the US (where they can speak freely) want Castro overthrown while in Cuba dissidents are imprisoned or at the very least intimidated with threats of lynching by Pro-Castro organized mobs who form outside their homes. When you are talking about progress in Cuba you have to take into account how much wealthier Cuba would have been had another system been in place. Look at the differences between North and South Korea in prosperity, it's a good example because it is the same people living under two systems. Who is going to argue that North Koreans are better off both economically and in terms of human rights? Taiwan and China are another example, same people, two very different levels of prosperity under two systems. Enough of a difference that China is moving full speed towards a freer economy.

[K-W]

61. You are buying into a communist boogeyman that does/did not exist. EOM

[manic expression]

67. Have you any grasp of reality?

I really don't think so. Cuba has more freedom than we have here. Ask yourself, you can easily and legally get and listen to American news in Cuba, is that oppression? The fact that you say Castro and Stalin are the same simply shows how insane you are. Castro has helped the people, while Stalin did the opposite. Human rights in Cuba are very good. Those "dissidents" that were arrested were funded by the US, which is a crime in America as well. The worst human rights violations on the island of Cuba happen in GUANTANAMO BAY, the US GULAG.

The bulk of the 1.3 million Cubans in the US are RW fascists because they were the families that had it good when Batista was in town. They want to drag Cuba back to Batista's time for their own benefit. People IN Cuba want it to remain the same for the people's benefit. Those refugees have nothing but the worst in mind for Cuba, only so they can rape the people and reap the benefits. Oh, and THEY can speak freely, but it is very difficult for a library in Miami to show "The Motorcycle Diaries" as part of Latin American History festival because of threats and intimidation from your reactionary Cuban "refugees". Please, if you have any stock with those jerks in Miami, you are sick.

I want you to find one example of "lynching by Pro-Castro organized mobs". Please.

Just as "a different system" would be wealth, would you say rape is pleasure? Yeah, Cuba would have been "wealthier"...just like Haiti. That wealth would have gone to fat cats in America and the elite in Cuba, while the PEOPLE would have been thrown to the dogs. You ignore the existence of the embargoes, and EVEN THEN, Cuba is able to help and treat its people EXTREMELY WELL (refer to my statistics) in spite of Uncle Sam's little siege. THAT is progress, where the people have what they need and justly deserve.

Look at the immense differences between North Korea and Cuba. :dunce: Look at the fact that the two countries are pretty much opposites: N Korea hurts the people, Cuba helps them. :rofl: Thanks for proving absolutely no point at all.

Also, South Korea would be much better if it used its resources to make universal health care, better education and other things as Cuba has. I also know that S Korea does not tolerate labor unions. When you consider the US embargoes and how much Cuba has done for its people with very little, Cuba has done much better for its people than S Korea.

Again, look at the economical and governmental differences between both China and N Korea and Cuba. They are opposites in this regard.

Another thing is that a "freer economy" translates to exploitation by foreign companies. Vietnam has a "freer economy" than Cuba, and would you agree that the fact that kids of your favored economy are working in sweatshops, whereas Cuban kids are in schools, is further proof that Cuba's way is ideal? You want to see a "freer economy"? Go to Haiti, go to China, go to Sierra Leone...there you will see people being oppressed and used by companies, their value and lives thrown to the wayside while they are forced to work to the bone for base greed and exploitation.

And also, it strikes me as funny that America would trade with China and not Cuba, especially when Cuba's human rights record is far better than China's (and America's).

You are delusional. Cuba has done so much for its people (look at my statistics), but more than anything, it has equality and justice, something America direly lacks (not to mention N Korea and China, America's best trading buddy).

[moddemny]

68. Human rights in Cuba is very good?

There is a ton of evidence to the contrary. ( I usually don't cut and paste articles, a lot of what I know about former Communist countries comes directly from the people who risked their lives to escape. I was very lucky to have grown up where I did in New York to have the rich experience of hearing it from the people who lived it. No one is going to believe me though, doesn't matter because most reliable sources on the Net paint a very different picture than pro-castro sympathizers would have you believe.)


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/10/cuba10306.htm

"Cuba: Human Rights Concerns for the 61st Session of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights

Objective

The Commission on Human Rights should pass a resolution under Item 9: condemning Cuba’s imprisonment of individuals based on their exercise of fundamental rights to free expression, association, assembly, or movement; calling upon Cuba to release persons incarcerated in violation of their rights; and pressing Cuba to undertake legal reforms to bring its domestic laws into compliance with fundamental international human rights norms.

Background

Despite the release in 2004 of fourteen of the seventy-five political dissidents, independent journalists, and human rights advocates prosecuted in April 2003, human rights conditions in Cuba have not improved. The Cuban government systematically denies its citizens basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, movement, and a fair trial. It restricts nearly all avenues of political dissent, and uses police warnings, surveillance, short term-detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, criminal prosecutions, and politically-motivated dismissals from employment as methods of enforcing political conformity.

Human rights monitoring is not recognized as a legitimate activity, but rather is stigmatized as a betrayal of Cuban sovereignty. No local human rights groups enjoy legal status. Instead, human rights defenders face systematic harassment, with the government placing heavy burdens on their ability to monitor human rights conditions. Nor are international human rights groups such as Human Rights Watch allowed to send fact-finding missions to Cuba

Political prisoners who denounce poor conditions of imprisonment or who otherwise fail to observe prison rules are frequently punished by long periods in punitive isolation cells, restrictions on visits, or denial of medical treatment.

There is only one official labor union in Cuba, the Worker’s Central of Cuba (Central de Trabajadores de Cuba, CTC). Independent labor unions are denied formal status and their members are harassed.

Recommendations

The Commission should adopt a resolution that would:

Condemn Cuba’s imprisonment of individuals based on their exercise of fundamental rights to free expression, association, assembly, or movement, including many imprisoned for human rights monitoring and advocacy;

Call upon Cuba to release persons incarcerated in violation of their fundamental human rights, including the many dissidents, independent journalists and human rights activists who were unfairly prosecuted in April 2003;

Press Cuba to undertake legal reforms to bring its domestic laws into compliance with fundamental international human rights norms, including eliminating the offense of contempt for authority (desacato, defamation of institutions and mass organizations and illegal exit, and eliminating or significantly narrowing the definition of Criminal Code provisions relating to enemy propaganda, and clandestine printing;

Press the Cuban government to demonstrate respect for the freedom of association by allowing independent labor unions to operate legally;

Urge Cuba to invite the CHR experts on human rights defenders, torture, independence of the judiciary, and arbitrary detention to visit Cuba;

Note Cuba’s failure to implement the recommendations included in previous CHR resolutions."

Another link:
CUBA'S REPRESSIVE MACHINERY
Human Rights Forty Years After the Revolution
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/



The claim that most Cubans in America are right wing Batista supporters is a myth spread by the people taken in and duped by the cult of Fidel. They are not Batista supporters although many may lean to the right. They lean to the right because many on the right listen to them. Dems should try to win the Cubans over in 2008 by calling for a replacement for Castro.


The delusion here is that 45 years (Castro came to power in 1959) of rule by the same despot is a model of progress and democracy.

[manic expression]

74. Right....Cuba is about as oppressive

as the US.

Those "arbitrary detentions" were US-funded "dissidents", paid to destabilize the island for Uncle Sam. That is illegal in America as well (accepting foreign funds without proper procedures). That instance actually happened after a senior US official toured Cuba with many "dissidents", holding press conferences. What's so bad about that? The same administration has created a special post to facilitate the overthrow of Cuba's government and society for base corporate interests. Not only this, the SAME administration has continued and even heightened US embargoes against Cuba, which hurts the Cuban people immensely for NO REASON. THAT should tell you a little something. Try looking at the actual situation.

I would like to remind you that Cuba has been under attack by America since 1959, militarily and in other ways, only because it has helped its people over US companies. The opposite was the case when Batista was in power, and the opposite is the case in many countries which are currently receiving support from your government, countries which are ACTUALLY disgustingly authoritarian, despotic and terrible (governments which REALLY torture people, sometimes FOR America).

By the way, Cuba DID invite journalists to their prisons, and nothing malicious was found.

If you knew a little history, you'd know that Castro did NOT come to power in 1959. If you knew the first thing about Cuba, you'd know that Castro is largely a figurehead who makes speeches. You'd also know that the Cuban Assembly has went against his wishes on quite a few occasions, as they hold actual power. If you had a bit of perspective with some knowledge, you'd know that the Cuban people are represented much better than the American people are. Nice try, though.

To learn the truth about Cuba, go here:
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

The delusion here is that Cuba is despotic, when the exact opposite is true.

[Ignacio Upton]

72. "Now there is justice and equality in Cuba, as there should be"

Horse shit! Castro's record against anyone who spoke out against him shows that he is a dictator! Granted Batista was a thug, but he was replaced with a another thug! And if Castro was a fair leader, then why hasn't he relinquished power? Castro's record against gays is also sickening.

[K-W]

73. Huh?

Castro's record against anyone who spoke out against him shows that he is a dictator

Perhaps I know a different definition of the word dictator than you do, but the last time I checked a dictator was defined as an autocrat. Someoene whos will dictates policy. Whether someone is or is not a dictator has nothing neccessarily to do with thier record of cruelty, brutality, etc.

[manic expression]

75. Horse sh*t! indeed

Please, provide me with his "record". If you're talking about the time right after the revolution, you can promptly shut up (that was after the fall of Batista's fascist government, so of course the revolution needs to establish a new government, which involves making sure the old one does not have power). There is political freedom in Cuba (by the way, political parties CANNOT hold office, not even the Communist Party, so individuals run, not elitist parties), but that does not include the freedom to take foreign (US) funds and try to destabilize the country (as in America).

Castro has not relinquished his position, which is different from power. He was elected, if you didn't know. The Cuban Assembly has most power, which represents the people very well.
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

[Walt Starr]

5. THIS IS BULLSHIT!

That would be the FIRST memorial in D.C. to foreign nationals.

It's an abomination. The memorials in D.C. are for AMERICAN heroes.

[moddemny]

7. Abomination?

That's a very strong and poor choice of words. A lot of people from former Communist countries came here and became citizens and contributed a lot to America. They have children who were born here as well and are citizens. They and the Americans that helped them sacrificed a great deal to overthrow a great tyranny. They are true patriots in many ways and to call a memorial to them an abomination is a very, very, very poor choice even if you disagree with it. I am going to assume since you seem like a very rational poster at other times, Mr. Starr, that you must have had one too many drinks or are in some other unusually negative state of mind.

[wrathofkahn]

13. I don't think that Walt questions their patriotism

and neither do I.

The point is that the Mall/Capitol area has long been reserved for American heroes who have defended and/or served this country. If someone wants to build that type of monument, fine; they just need to do it somewhere besides inbetween the Capitol and the Supreme Court.

That particular area is sacred ground. Let 'em put it in Potomac Park or off DuPont Circle or near the Zoo or something.




edited to buy a vowel

[stepnw1f]

35. Political Propaganda

They suffered totalitarianism. Not Communism. I know... my father's family survived WWII and the Russian Revolution. This is another attempt by the Fascists in this country trying to define their polar opposites as the enemy. Funny thing is they are just as oppressive.

Don't kid yourself that this memorial is anything more than propaganda.

[Walt Starr]

47. Sorry, but anybody who became a citizen of the United States

cannot be one of the 100,000,000 claimed to have been killed by Communism. And it is those who are the object of such a memorial.

There are NO memorials to non-citizens in D.C., NONE.

[Charlie Brown]

49. Isn't the Holocaust Memorial to non-citizens?

Granted, it's more of a museum than a memorial.

I'm not trying to argue, just trying to set the record straight.

[Walt Starr]

50. That's not a memorial n/t

[moddemny]

59. Sorry, but anybody who became a citizen of the United States

cannot be one of the 100,000,000 claimed to have been killed by Communism."

The article says 100 million killed or tortured. Many people came here to escape the repression and became citizens and Americans played a large role in helping them.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

76. Dammit, Walt, they need to build one for you and me on this one!

We are actually in strong agreement on this issue!

:toast:

[K-W]

6. I guess the victims of US backed tyrants and the US from the same era

dont deserve any recognition.

Where is the monument to the victims of democracy?... I guess they cant put that up yet since democracy is still killing people.

Blaming the actions of red tyrants and warmongers on communism makes about as much sense as blaming the invasion of Iraq on democracy.

[malaise]

11. Bingo

Fugg them. More people in this hemisphere died because of as a result of those tyrants and their backers than as a result of communists.

[daleo]

10. There should be a Victims of Capitalism monument too.

All those who starved amongst plenty, died of treatable disease due to lack of money, were killed in imperialist wars, were enslaved, were enslaved and killed, froze to death due to lack of shelter, drowned because of poverty,...

[JanMichael]

12. BINGO! I'm starting a thread on that tonight.

For one the bullshit numbers are ambiguous at best, for two Capitalism revisionists love hyping numbers, for three nobody ever seems to do the calculation on Capitalist mismanagement of resourses that cause death.

The Phillipines, Nazi Germany, Rwanda, inequitable healthcare, lying tobacco companies, wars between Capitalist neighbors, Native Americans, famine in every country that WASN'T Communist or Socialist, political assassinations in Chile, Bolivia, AND assasinations in post-Revolutionary countries, etcetera.

It's enough to make my head explode. Basically it's all about intentional obtusness.

[moddemny]

14. "Capitalism revisionists love hyping numbers........."

100 million tortured and killed? Hyped numbers? Let's says it was 50 million, would you sweep that under the rug too? How about 10 million? We can talk about the wrongs of every other system but for some reason Communism gets a pass?

[JanMichael]

15. Passes for none, how about that?

How about a nice statue on the Plaza commemorating the victims of Capitalism? I'll get the "rough" numbers tonight.

Ok?

On edit I should add: As honest as possible numbers too.

[moddemny]

17. Really credible numbers.......

..... I'm sure you'll have by including countries like Nazi Germany (fine example of a capitalist country you picked), acts of nature, famine etc.


While you are doing you research why don't you come to New York and and find some immigrants from Communist countries who only came here with the shirts on their back and now own a lot of the multifamily properties (2,3,4,5,6, family and up) you see driving through Queens, Brooklyn or the Bronx. Ask them how many family members they supported by sneaking money back to them before the Berlin wall fell. None of them are willing to trade America for someone else's version of a Communist utopia.

[JanMichael]

18. Sure and I have to add that I lived in Krakow, Poland in the early 90's...

...as well as the late 90's up to 2000. I've heard all sides of this issue both pro and con as well as people that don't care either way. b

Opinions are like, what's that orifice again? Yes, assholes, everyone has one.

[moddemny]

19. Are you Polish?

I have never met a Pole (not to mention Czechs, Hungarians, Romanian, Croatian, Slovenian, many Chinese, Cuban) fond of Communism (unless they were former Communists) and I know quite a few. When you say you heard both sides of the issue, I don't know who you were talking too or what narrow circles you move in. That's not to say they would go all out to defend Capitalism but the overwhelming majority of people from former Communist countries do not want to return to a Communist country of the kind they left. They would seek to correct Capitalism's problems in other ways. Opinions are not just opinions for those who had to deal with the reality of those regimes first hand.


Almost every opinion I have heard about Communism from people who lived in former Communist countries were not voiced to me because I was looking to pump up Capitalism. They were told voluntarily over the last 30 years from many people I grew up around in neighborhoods in New York without any prompting on my part. They were not framed in this left/right battle of today hence the information was not colored by Bush's presidency or any other current issues. No matter how much you spin it you are not going to be able to sweep under the rug what life was really like under those former Communist regimes.

[moddemny]

20. ...

...

[JanMichael]

22. It's Friday night, chill out.

I'm not giving you my beeper number so I can reply immediately.

[JanMichael]

21. I'm not attempting to spin anything.

There are always going to be malcontents in every system even a Utopian one like Bellamy wrote about.

For an example many of the native Polish people that I dealt with on a daily basis, I lived and worked there for 5 years post-1989, resented those that bolted for either england or the US. Often times they didn't see it as a rejection of the system there but as an attempt to leave their home country for Big Macs and a Chrysler. Remember that Poland wasn't a rich industrialised European urban nation until after the change. The proportion of rural to urban was decidedly in the rural camp. Needless to say they had a small highly elitist rich group controlling everything while the rest were dirt poor.

Either way "life" wasn't what either you or I imagine it may have been under those regimes for the average "Jan". I was around those near my own age, 37 now, who when asked what their lives were like as young teens usually gave responses very close (Vodka instead of Beer, summer camp which i never attended, dating, academics, screwing and other such activities.) to my own upbringing and they weren't Communist Party babies either, just regular citizens.

All I'm saying is that we have a lopsided, one-sided, view of the whole situation and it works to make us reactionary and believe whatever line we're fed. Either by our press or by those who desire to make their decision sound heroic and interesting.

That likely works both directions.

EDIT: Forgot to add that I'm born and bred USain. The family history however is reflected in my username.

Czesz.

[moddemny]

54. Someone who has a family member killed......

or tortured is not just a "malcontent". They're not pissed because they didn't have an economy with every little aspect the way they wanted. The perfect job, perfect house, perfect education, etc. They're pissed because they were brutally oppressed.

I understand what you mean by people being left behind having some resentment towards those who left. I have seen that personally in some families. It can be considered a form of jealousy as well. The majority however who left sent back whatever possible aid they could to their former home country. It is not uncommon for one family member who makes it to America to support 4,5,6 siblings, cousins, parents, with enough money to feed and cloth them. There is nothing wrong with freedom and better economic conditions going hand in hand, it does not diminish any criticisms they have of the former regimes they lived under. Add to that the fact many people took great risks to come here which economics alone wouldn't always justify.


"Either way "life" wasn't what either you or I imagine it may have been under those regimes for the average "Jan". I was around those near my own age, 37 now, who when asked what their lives were like as young teens usually gave responses very close (Vodka instead of Beer, summer camp which i never attended, dating, academics, screwing and other such activities.) to my own upbringing and they weren't Communist Party babies either, just regular citizens"

There are people in every country who if they don't suffer themselves personally my not think things are so bad. We are not just talking Poland here, there are many other countries (Poland included) where speaking out against the Communist party could mean imprisonment, torture, even death. Even people who made it to the United States were afraid sometimes of speaking out because they were afraid of what would happen to family members back home. Quite a few former Communist countries had consulates in the U.S. that kept tabs on their citizens that moved here.



"All I'm saying is that we have a lopsided, one-sided, view of the whole situation and it works to make us reactionary and believe whatever line we're fed. Either by our press or by those who desire to make their decision sound heroic and interesting."

That's part spin right there, not everyone who has a negative opinion about Communism is getting it from the media. Life under Communism was a very very large scale group event, the information comes from the people who lived it. I can easily walk out my door in New York and find entire communities, Russians in Brighton Beach and Rego Park, Poles in Greenpoint, Croatians in Astoria, Chinese in Flushing and Chinatown, Albanians in the Bronx, etc. It has nothing to do with the media. The information is not some type of spoon fed propaganda on TV, that's the kinda BS that Communist defenders spew because they can't reconcile the reality of the situation with their utopian theory. Another attempt to sweep history under the rug.

[JanMichael]

58. I said passes for none.

Somebody else made a point lower down in this thread that it would be much more appropriate to have a monument to the victims of Oppression and Dictatorship and perhaps even lousy resourse management.

There are plenty, no need to name names, of societeies that operated on Capitalist priciples that one could/can find one's self in trouble, BIG trouble, if they shoot their mouths off.

However that wouldn't suit Corporate America and the NeoCONS now would it?

Passes for None.

That's the whole kit n' kaboodle.

No more responding to emotional appeals for me.

Czesz.

[moddemny]

62. There is no emotional appeal here,....

.......just plain facts.

Humanity went down a long tough road. Progress doesn't always come easy and there is still lots of evolution and progress that has to be made. The point is the U.S. is still in the game while the system that took hold in the Communist countries of the 20th Century is almost completely out and basically a total failure with very few rational people wanting to return to it.

[JanMichael]

63. There have been plenty but don't worry about it.

I guess that plain facts of abuses and economic/planning failures only count for some voices. In some places. Or at least only some voices in in some places in DC-2005.

Nice quip about "rational people", that was pleasant.

EDIT: And I said "passes for none" but that doesn't seem to matter.

[moddemny]

64. "Nice quip about "rational people", that was pleasant."

That quip was aimed at others reading the thread and other threads where similiar deabtes went on. In case you haven't noticed I am a little outnumbered here.


I understand when you say "passes for none", the problem I have is with people lumping all tyranny together and blaming it all on capitalism and the U.S. There was a ton of abuse throughout Human history in many forms for many reasons and they are not necessarily all firmly linked by the same threads. Communism on the other hand was an experiment tried in many countries in basically the same way over and over with same (or very similiar) revolutionary rhetoric and the same results across the board across many continents and cultures (including inherently communal cultures like the Chinese).

The history and effects of Communism stands on it's own and yet people keep bringing up Bush. I am not defending Bush and the people who don't acknowledge the wrongs of the Communist regimes of the 20th century are hurting the anti-bush movement in a number of ways:

1. They sound ignorant of recent history.

2. They alienate a lot of people who did live and suffer under Communist rule.

[K-W]

65. BS

Communism on the other hand was an experiment tried in many countries in basically the same way over and over with same (or very similiar) revolutionary rhetoric and the same results across the board across many continents and cultures (including inherently communal cultures across the board).

Communism was not an experiment tried in any countries.

Communism did not take the same form everywhere.

The rhetoric was similar, the rhetoric was based upon communist theories. But just because the rhetoric was based on communist theories doesnt mean that the nation was functioning according to those theories. History is full of leaders who proclaim thier brutal self serving policies are inspired by an ideology.

And no, it did not have the same results.

The history and effects of Communism stands on it's own and yet people keep bringing up Bush. I am not defending Bush and the people who don't acknowledge the wrongs of the Communist regimes of the 20th century are hurting the anti-bush movement in a number of ways:

People bring up Bush because Bush is proof that the proclaimed ideology and justifications of the leader do not mean that the policies are based on that ideology.

Everyone acknowledges the wrongs of the Communist regimes of the 20th centry, some people aknowledge them in context with the rest of the regimes in history, and some people want to use them to fuel thier anti-communist rhetoric by drawing the absurd conclusion that despite the fact that tyranical, despotic, and brutal regimes have utilized all kinds of ideologies throughout history, in this case, it was the ideology that made the regimes brutal, and not the other way around.

Since your strawman doesnt exist it cant possibly be hurting a movement. Red baiters however...

[moddemny]

66. "Communism was not an experiment tried in any countries."

Really? Centrally planned economies, outlawing of private property and private business, many people not being able to freely choose their own professions, that never happened?

Oh, but all those bad things (I left out many of the more tyrannical aspects) are not real Communism right? No it never worked itself out the way it was in theory. I wonder why? Hmmm could it be it wasn't the first flawed theory to sound good on paper and not work in reality? Somehow across all the Communist countries in the world the bad Communists always knocked off the good ones (where there were communists with good intentions)? How did that happen, was it just a fluke?


"Communism did not take the same form everywhere."

There were variations on a theme, Yugoslavia wasn't as bad as the Soviet Union but they have a great many elements in common.

If you noticed my response was to someone who in reply #10 was linking tobacco companies and Nazi Germany together as examples of Capitalist abuses. Communist countries had much more in common with one another than the examples thrown out about how the atrocities of Capitalism are linked.

"And no, it did not have the same results."

Naaaaahhhhh, just torture, repression, false imprisonment, suppression of many forms of individual initiative, completely militarized economies,killing, etc. in every country that had a communist revolution.


"Everyone acknowledges the wrongs of the Communist regimes of the 20th century"

Not in the discussions I have been having lately, you need look no further than some replies in this thread, I wont point out names, I'll be accused of redbaiting.


"Since your strawman doesnt exist it cant possibly be hurting a movement"

Ignore history and the accuse someone else of looking for a strawman and redbaiting, typical of the way these debates have been going lately. There are 1 billion plus people on his planet who lived under Communist rule and you deny an entire reality to fling your labels. Ask them how many want to repeat the Communist experiment while it's defenders work out the flaws.

[K-W]

71. The fact that you seem to know what communism is

pretty much discredits everything youve written on this thread.

Really? Centrally planned economies, outlawing of private property and private business, many people not being able to freely choose their own professions, that never happened?

That isnt communism, that is totalitarianism. And one cannot outlaw private property, private property isnt a behavior, it is an idea that can or can not be legislated. Regardless so called 'communist' countries did NOT have communal property and most if not all had some form of private property.

Oh, but all those bad things (I left out many of the more tyrannical aspects) are not real Communism right?

Not only are they not rael communism, they arent any kind of communism. They are, rather obviously totalitarianism, which is completely incompatible with communism.

No it never worked itself out the way it was in theory. I wonder why?

I wonder why democracy never worked itself out the way it was in theory.

Hmmm could it be it wasn't the first flawed theory to sound good on paper and not work in reality?

We arent talking about a bridge design here, we are talking about philosophical ideas.

Somehow across all the Communist countries in the world the bad Communists always knocked off the good ones (where there were communists with good intentions)?

Its hard to respond to such a rediculously oversimplified statement of history.

How did that happen, was it just a fluke?

It didnt happen. You are telling a tall tale. Communism wasnt tried anywhere. Communism was an idea that rallied working people, like so many ideas have rallied people in history, and like all those ideas it was warped and twisted into propaganda to justify someone or another siezing and holding power.

There were variations on a theme, Yugoslavia wasn't as bad as the Soviet Union but they have a great many elements in common.

Lost of countries have things in common, especially countries controlled by corrupt political parties.

If you noticed my response was to someone who in reply #10 was linking tobacco companies and Nazi Germany together as examples of Capitalist abuses. Communist countries had much more in common with one another than the examples thrown out about how the atrocities of Capitalism are linked.

You cant compare the acctual economic use of capitalism to countries controlled by 'Communist' parties. There are no, and never have been any countries that functioned communally.

It is perfectly reasonable to point to capitalism in various historical contexts no matter how much the various countries had in common with each other, and this has nothing to do with the various nations who have been controlled by communist parties.

Naaaaahhhhh, just torture, repression, false imprisonment, suppression of many forms of individual initiative, completely militarized economies,killing, etc. in every country that had a communist revolution.

As opposed to the countries that didnt have a communist revolution that also had torture, repression, false imprisonment... etc, etc.

So now we are going to blame violence and brutality, things that have existed in almost every culture, ideology, economy, etc in the history of the world on the ideology of communism that wasnt even practiced?

Ignore history and the accuse someone else of looking for a strawman and redbaiting, typical of the way these debates have been going lately.

Except that I am not ignoring history at all. And I accused you of making a strawman because you made a strawman. If you dont want to be accused of red baiting, STOP RED BAITING. It is blatently obvious that you are an anti-communist, dont pretend you arent one.

There are 1 billion plus people on his planet who lived under Communist rule and you deny an entire reality to fling your labels.

I have denied no reality, just self serving oversimplifications and rediculous arguments meant to distort history to back up your rhetorical crusade against the communist boogeyman.

I mourn for all of the victims of tyranny in the world, not just those who I can spin into being victims of an ideology I hate even though I dont understand.

Ask them how many want to repeat the Communist experiment while it's defenders work out the flaws.

Another statement that proves that you have no clue what you are talking about.

[moddemny]

77. The only reason a single..........

...... damn thing in this thread seems oversimplified is because it's a forum and the thread is only 3 to 4 days old. I can't write a damn book in 4 days so I may make some simplifications. There is a wealth of information out there about the abuses of Communism, how they came power, the intent of the revolution versus the outcome, etc, etc, etc. Where the hell have you been the last 50 years? All you do is write a blanket denial and ignore all the information to the contrary as if this thread is the first and last about one of the largest phenomena of the 20th century. I don't have time to write all day and expand on every point, I have to work for a living and it doesn't matter anyway because someone has done it before me. The information is out there.


When I make a statement like

"Ask them how many want to repeat the Communist experiment while it's defenders work out the flaws."

You respond with

"Another statement that proves that you have no clue what you are talking about."

I have heard from dozens of people from former Communist countries about how they do not want to go back to the economic system they left. No, they don't consider America perfect but they frequently tell me how lucky I was to be born here. These people have heard all the rhetoric about Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, etc. It was force fed to them in school and political reeducation for those who found themselves imprisoned. They know the stark difference between what was proposed in theory and what failed in practice. They know how some Americans have a unrealistic love affair with Marxist ideas. And I am suppose to ignore all of it? Where the hell did you live so you could so flippantly dismiss all of that experience? You can find millions of people with same accounts all over the world you don't have take my word for it. (including people who had all of their private property collectivized........ and no not just wealthy landowners..... ordinary people with a small farm or house who say they were made to feel like thieves because they worked for a living to have what they had.)


I am anti-communist (for good reasons)....... so what? A lot of people here are anti-bush aren't they, so am I, so what? Bush isn't my hero and neither is Fidel Castro.

It's not redbaiting to be anti-communist. I didn't come here to find communists to argue with. I once made a passing comment about Che Guevara or hinted Fidel Castro was not a nice guy and everybody jumped down my throat, not the other way around. I was surprised by the response and no I am not going to accept Che Guevara as a hero or as a symbol of protest (why don't you ask the Che supporters if they are (or consider themselves) real communists, marxists, whatever you want to call them, I'm sure they see they see themselves as good little revolutionaries.

There are lots of Communists here who aren't making differentiations between Communism and totalitarianism (your particular variation or form of denial). There are posters defending Castro and when you follow the links they post it goes back to sites that didn't really have a problem with what happened in tiannemen square, or what goes on in North Korea. If you noticed I started off the thread by mentioning ANSWER (I have a problem when some of the largest anti-bush protests are organized by people who are pro-stalin) and no ANSWER isn't the only organization with an old style pro-communist bent. I can post the links and examples but I don't because I will be accused of being a red baiter and other things which I won't mention here.

There are other ways to be pro-labor, pro healthcare, pro-education without becoming a marxist/communist/che-castro sympathizer. ( I know, I know, now I am going to here how communists helped the labor movement in the U.S. etc, etc, yada, yada, yada.......... marxists taking all the credit where it's not always due. When I have the time I'll have to go over that point by point)

[stepnw1f]

37. We Have One

It's now called 'Ground Zero'.

[UncleSepp]

78. Excellent!!

[manic expression]

23. Why not a "victims of capitalism" memorial?

We could just make it the slums of every city on earth. We could make it every malnourished child or every family without enough food. We could make it every workplace that breaks their workers' backs while paying nothing.

Monuments to capitalism...monuments to what must have justice.

[rug]

26. Precisely.

[Charlie Brown]

29. A "victims of Christianity" memorial would be equally compelling

They could start w/the many millions of Native Americans who were forcibly removed or murdered as a result of Manifest Destiny policies.

The enslavement of African-Americans is also a result of Christian dogma.

[Charlie Brown]

27. This had better be paid for privately

'cause I don't like seeing my tax money used for political witchhunts.

Will there be a memorial for the victims of Christian dictators like Franco, Milosevic, and Charles Taylor?

BTW, this memorial is obviously a statement of belligerence against North Korea and Cuba. It has nothing to do with honoring the memory of Gulag and Khymer Rouge victims.

[moddemny]

28. Milosevic.....

was a communist.

[rug]

30. . . . and Bush is fighting for liberty.

[moddemny]

32. What does this have to do with....

Bush?

[rug]

38. What does Milosevic have to do with Communism?

[moddemny]

39. He was a Communist

posing as a Socialist. (like a lot of Communists)


Leader of the Socialist Party of Serbia.

[rug]

40. And Bush is an international capitalist posing

as a patriot. Labels do not alter reality.

[moddemny]

42. Again same question.......

what does this have to with Bush? Communism was a reality long before he came to office, so was Milosevic.

[rug]

44. This proposal is as much propaganda as the GWOT.

Class warfare was a reality long before Marx was born. The words on the monument may as well come off a Bush speech about freedom and democracy and will carry as much weight. Dictators and thugs masquerading as communists are straw targets that this museuem will glibly use to support the much older and much greater crimes that capitalists down through Bush are perpetrating.

That's what it has to do with Bush.

[moddemny]

45. "That's what it has to do with Bush."

I didn't vote for Bush and I don't defend Bush.......

All of this viewing history though through the lens of the Bush Administration is contributing to a significant dumbing down of Democrats and everyone else who is against Bush. Communist dictatorship was a reality long before Bush and it was a REAL, TRUE FIGHT FOR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY to take it down. Whatever hollow words Bush uses in his speeches has nothing to do with the reality of what came before.


Problems with capitalism do not diminish the wrongs of Communism nor does it mean we should try to fix capitalism with a repeat of Communist mistakes.

[rug]

46. To be pedantic, John V. Cogbill is a Bush appointee.

I do not expect any monument coming from this agency to seriously examine history. It will be used to advance current political agenda. And I don't doubt your sincerity.

[rug]

31. . . . and Bush is fighting for liberty.

[Charlie Brown]

34. so was Gorbachev n/t

[moddemny]

36. Gorbachev......

one of the FEW smart ones..... A Communist with the sense to help take Communism down. Very impressive.

[JanMichael]

48. Bush...One of the few with enough greed to destroy America.

Or better yet to expose it's cruelty and Imperialism. And enough hubris to bring that shit down.

Very impressive:-)

[Charlie Brown]

41. The Serb Church was certainly a major player in the Nat'list Movement

during the Bosnia conflict.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n25_v112/ai_17403531

Democratic critics within Serbia maintain that the church's high council of bishops, or episcopate, is dominated by hardline nationalists who wield significant power over the church's supreme leader, Patriarch Pavle. In official memoranda the episcopate accuses the "godless communist" Milosevic of forcing an unjust peace upon the Bosnian and Croatian Serbs.

The latest peace plan, charges the episcopate, undermines the creation of Greater Serbia. "Our church is for the unity of the Serbian people and Serbian lands," reads one statement, "as well as for the just rights of other peoples who live with or near the Serbian people." Along with a handful of extreme-right parties in Serbia, some leading Serbian bishops are considered among the Bosnian Serbs' main supporters. Patriarch Pavle, widely regarded as a decent and apolitical man who is deeply disturbed by the war, makes regular trips to Pale, the Bosnian Serb capital, to meet with Bosnian Serb President Radovan Karadzic.

[name not needed]

33. I can think of a few places for one...

[Deja Q]

43. given how * supports corporate offshorng TO communist countries like china

this memorial seems kind of sickening and two-faced.

You should see what some capitalists I know are doing. It's tantamount to torture too.

[progressivebydesign]

52. But aren't we indebted (literally) and pals with Communist China?

I was thinking about this the other day. Isn't China still communist? Why do we allow our Democracy to be indebted to a communist country? A country that violates human rights regularly? Makes no sense.

Good communists? Bad communists? I'm confused! :silly:

[daleo]

53. They are honorary capitalists now

Since they provide western corporations with cheap labor and cheap products.

[Blue_Tires]

55. this needs to be nipped in the bud

because if it is built, the first thing I'll lobby for is 'memorial for those killed/abused in:
1. religious wars
2. imperialist wars of conquest and expansion
3. expansion of the american west

the list goes on and on

[Violet_Crumble]

56. Yep, it sure does...

..the only difference is that the Bush regime isn't interested in using any of those purely for propaganda purposes the way they want to use this...

Just think. With a nice, shiny big thing built, it's there to remind the ignorant sheeple to go hide under their beds lest the big bad boogeyman of communism gets hold of them ;)

Violet...


Violet...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. Red-baiting.

The only goal of this is to watch for liberals who fail to be enthusiastic enough and point fingers at them and call them commies.

A monument for victims of DICTATORSHIP worldwide would be more proper. Why isn't a poor Chilean that was killed by Pinochet goons any less deserving? Or the victims of Islamic theocracies for that matter?

[Selatius]

69. I want to erect a VICTIMS OF CAPITALISM monument as well

I agree with the previous poster who brought up this point.

Hey, I'm just calling for equal time here if we're going to play this game. It'll be a grand memorial with tributes to all those factory workers who fought and died for a decent wage as well as tributes to slaves in America used to enrich the "owners of the means of production," the plantation masters, and everything else done in the name of profit and control.

[Jara sang]

70. How bout a memorial for the victims of Bush Family Evil Empire?

The Bush family have been promoting tyranny and killing millions since well before World War I.