To get rid of corrupt leadership, we must get rid of electronic voting

[shance]

and the privatization of our vote by politically invested companies.

How do we best do that?

Voter verified ballots are a bandaid at BEST. They will just make the fraud look a little more legitimate.

We must stop asking for breadcrumbs. Our future is at stake.

We must rid our elections of electronic voting in EVERY PART OF THE PROCESS, because they purposefully eliminate the transparency and legitimacy in all of our elections, and we must run the elections ourselves.

If they can vote 50 billion in for the thieves who created this war, then they are thieves themselves and need to be removed. However, they don't seem to be that worried about it. We have to alert friends and family to make this their number one issue.

The website I have found to be most informative and helpful has been ecotalk.org. Lynn Landes has speerheaded a project called the Parallel election project and it was so successful it caused a recount to be implemented in the mayoral campaign in San Diego. I think the only mistake Americans are making is asking for "recounts" (waste of time) versus demanding a new election or a re-vote.

I have been involved on this issue for a while. There are many good people involved. We have to insure transparency in this process and its going to take a fight. They are not going to back away and say "here you go", we are going to have to take our elections back ourselves.

[Skidmore]

1. Better yet, we need to stand up in huge numbers the way

they did in that Orange Revolution. Get on the streets and be seen and heard. Otherwise, it becomes a war of words.

[shance]

14. What is the Orange Revolution?

n/t

[PatrioticLeftie]

17. Info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution

[shance]

24. Thanks PL.

n/t

[ladjf]

2. If this first step isn't taken, there is no need to take other steps.

[shance]

3. Im going to agree with you. Everything else is futile if you don't get

to the root source of the problem. We have to eliminate the cancer of electronic voting and that will take more citizens taking their elections back.

[ladjf]

4. I don't see enough Democrats worrying about this problem.

I don't get it. The most fundamental democratic process is honest elections. All is based on that.

[shance]

5. Some are bought like Republicans, others baffle me as well.

It could be they are overwhelmed. I believe its up to citizens nationwide to put this issue on their table and in their awareness where they simply cannot ignore it any further.

This is going to take a huge amount of citizen energy. But the good thing is the atomosphere should be perfect for it right now. We just have to get the information out to neighborhoods and coffee shops, everywhere.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. That's step one.. further steps are

found on my website.

[shance]

8. Thanks GPV***

I'll definitely take a look.

Glad you and others are working on this.

[bryant69]

7. I don't agree

I do agree that we need to reform our voting system, but sinmply eliminating electronic voting machines is not the best way to go about this.

1. The potential for corruption exists in any system you care to name. Votes are going to be counted by computers - and such computers are going to be capable of being programmed in fraudulent ways. And even if you eliminate electronics completely; you place the voting process back in the hands of human beings, who are at least as corruptable as machines.

2. You overlook the benefits of electronic voting. Such machines can be easier to use and can make voting far me accessible.

3. There are steps that can be done to make electronic voting more transperent; most importantly, creating a paper trail. If there is a paper trail, than fraud is more difficult, but certainly not impossible.

4. I agree that we need to have more oversight of voting machines - and possibly we need to take private companies out of the equation entirely. I'm not sure how practical that is, but it may be necessary.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[shance]

9. Hi Bryant. Thanks for posting.

Yeah I would say we would disagree on some things.

One examples would be the private companies. If massive election theft is the reality which we are experiencing and enduring, I don't think the ownership of our ballot data and election results by private Republican (or Democrat for that matter) companies is an issue of practicality, as much as it is an issue of legality and at the least honesty and fair judicial impartiality.

[garybeck]

10. there are ways to protect electronic voting systems

it doesn't take a brain surgeon. all you need is

1) random manual audits at the precinct level. (I suggest 10% of all precincts to be hand counted for now, because of the level of fraud we've seen in the past, but it could be reduced to 5% in the future)

2) open software code

3) voter verified paper records for every vote cast

4) precinct level results posted publicly.


With these 4 things it would be very difficult to steal an election.

[shance]

11. None of which is being done. "It doesnt take a brain surgeon"

to see that electronic voting violates and barrs the necessary and legal transparency of a valid election process. (Voting Rights Act)

Citizen involvement IN. Corporations OUT. Techonology which blocks transparency and legitimacy BUHBYE.

[garybeck]

12. I agree 100% !!!

question is, how do we get the citizen involvement when the media is against us?

here's one tool. get the free CD-ROM:

http://solarbus.org/election/cd

[shance]

13. Thanks Gary.

I love solarbus. Havent been over there in a while.

[yowzayowzayowza]

21. Yep, cept...

Open or escrowed source doesn't really make any difference if every counting device is audited in every election.

A manufacturing process consuming expensive resources producing a very valuable product cannot fore go QC until the product is complete. The cost of mass failure is too great. Our precious votes and democracy deserve a completely verified process in every election.

So, I would amend you list to

1) 5% random manual audits of every counting device,

2) voter verified paper records for every vote cast

3) precinct level results posted publicly.

[shance]

26. That continues to violates the Voting Rights Act and the transparency

necessary in a fair and accurate election.

Keep in mind it is now more important to observe who is COUNTING the votes than who is casting them.

As the saying goes, it is not who cast the votes who decides the election but who COUNTS the votes.

[yowzayowzayowza]

28. Ya lost me.

What "continues to violates the Voting Rights Act and the transparency necessary in a fair and accurate election"?

[shance]

29. Im sorry. I'm assuming you believe electronic procedures

can be accurately implemented. If thats the case I would have to disagree.

I could have misunderstood.

:shrug:

[yowzayowzayowza]

30. Accurately Implemented? Doubtless.

Watz wrong with an optiscan process based on:

1) voter verified paper records for every vote cast,

2) 5% random manual audits of every counting device, and

3) publicly posted totals for each batch counted?

[kster]

27. Don't like to disagree with you but,

these 4 steps You and I know could work, but we will never get these in to place with the corrupt politicians that these vote stealing machines have already put in place.

We have to have one voice, paper ballots hand counted ,then maybe in the future start introducing electronic voting after all these corrupt politician and companies are out of business.

Say no to secret vote counting.

My 2 cents.

[shance]

35. I like that. "Say No to Secret Vote Counting"

That is exactly what it is.

[FogerRox]

38. bryant69-- the short version----------I come at it from this angle

DREs are designed to cheat--- the hardware design it self-- the archytecture for most, is built to cheat-- from the vendor-- not the outside hack--

We must take back the House in 2006- we need good stand up candidates - & ELection reform at the same time--- the 2006 election effort is under way NOW

Corizine in NJ must win big-- to lead the way for NJ to get at least 2 seats back in 2006.

My county may buy new DREs Under HAVA within 2 1/2 months, at most. And I fight that efffing mess everyday--- for 12 months I have been putting in about 90 hours/week- between work ($$$$) and my volunteer work. (_________)

I can keep this pace for another year or two, easy.

Without election reform- it doesnt matter how good the candidate is.

[kster]

15. I'm with you...100%....nt

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. I have an easy solution to our voting problems

Paper and pen ballots. Optical scanners can be used for counting, however all ballots must be run through twice and if the numbers don't match, then the batch gets counted by hand.

This is not rocket science.

However our voting system is the only system of accounting that doesn't double check the numbers. Of course, the repugs think it's unconstitutional to count the votes more then once. They know they can never get the same answer twice.

[shance]

23. Optical scanners have been manipulated in elections. Another form

of electronic manipulation and of equal importance, obstruction of the transparent election process necessary to have a legitimate election.

[DoYouEverWonder]

31. That's why you have to certify the count

by running the ballots through twice.

[Stevepol]

33. I disagree strongly with "running it thru twice."

If the machine is programmed to count the votes in a certain way, it won't matter how many times the same ballots are run thru, if the machine is working properly, it will give the same result, whether that vote is fraudulent or not.

If you get a different vote the second run-thru, all that says is that the machine is broke, ain't working right.

We need required MANUAL audits for all elections using electronic voting machines, no matter what they are. And to have that you have to post BEFORE THE AUDIT the results at every precinct or level. The complete vote has to be out there to audit.

I believe the MN election in 02 which saw Mondale lose (after leading consistently in pre-election polls) was fraudulent and that one involved mostly ES&S scanners.

[mirandapriestly]

18. Every time there's a "recount" which doesn't find any substantial

difference, it gives those who commit the fraud more strength and we have less strength in our accusations. I hate it when there are improprieties and all they do is a recount. I know it won't catch anything, they've already thought ahead and covered it. I agree with you, there needs to be new elections or rev-otes in these cases of highly questionable outcomes/procedures like Ohio and Florida and I can't believe there is not some authority to turn to that has the power to oversee elections. They are the most important part of our democracy and they have been seriously compromised.

[AntiFascist]

19. The "Parallel election" project sounds like a great idea!

I've been thinking that something like this is the best way out of this mess, and to make it so that the voter only has to use a voting system once is essential. This should be demanded statewide in California. If Arnold's "popularity" mysteriously starts going back up right before the 2006 election I'm going to get very concerned.

On edit: whoops had wrong state!

[shance]

34. Doesn't it though? The concept has been growing nationwide.

Not to mention the fact that it was the instrument that allowed and initiated another recount in San Diego(which should have been another re-vote). It also shows how important and more valid a voter verified manuel tabulation of an election is, more so than one done with electronic technology.

[AntiFascist]

39. People need to become much more aware of the problem of tabulators...

From all I've read from the previous elections about how many centralized tabulators have unsecured back doors that allow simple scripts to be run which can flip the tallies in close elections. Even in areas in California where paper scantron systems are used, I believe there is still evidence where the Diebold tabulators may have been abused.

People should also be aware of the fact that a Diebold insider has recently spoken out, possibly being the cause behind Diebold stock taking a nosedive in September:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=DBD&t=1y

www.bradblog.com

[dogday]

20. Voter Verified Ballots

Without them, we will never know the truth...

[MetaTrope]

22. Chicago's gone to touch-screen voting

How the hell did that happen?!

[Cocoa]

36. because the punch cards were disenfranchising hundreds of thousands

in the 2000 election, 7% of Cook County ballots were discarded due to punch card problems.

To many Chicago voters, including myself, this was unacceptable.

[BeFree]

25. Use of Electronics

There really is no good reason to use electronics either to record, add or compute the votes, except that it is easier for one person to run an election.

That one person can also ruin an election. One person can alter millions of votes. Is that what we want: A system that can be controlled by one, or just a few people? 'Cause that's where we are now.

The old ways, you know, back when democrats actually got elected, are the ways of many people looking over the shoulders of the many vote compilers. It worked very well, and there is no reason to discard that process. Unless of course, you want elections to be decided privately, which is what the crooks and liars desire.

If any electronic is used, it must be audited by at least two different sets of people, each using a different audit program. Any such system must have a paper record which is verified by the individual voter. But with all that, it is much easier, and safer, to have nothing but human eyes adding up the votes.

Anything less, and the republicans will rule forever.

Get yee down to your Board of Elections and make some noise. They will listen.

[In Truth We Trust]

32. ExactlyShance! Paper ballots NOW!!! Hand counts NOW!!!

[katinmn]

37. Excellent points!

Election integrity needs to be at the top of the agenda for everyone who cares about democracy.