Car : The difference between US and Europe (Images heavy)

[YapiYapo]

There is a real gouging occurring in the US,it's not gas price gouging,oil is a world market,price are fixed by demand also price of gas in the US is the cheapest in the industrialized world.

it's fuel efficiency gouging,cars sold in the US market are by far the worst in the world when it come to efficiency.It's safe to say this doesn't come from big oil,even if they certainly make profit from it,it's obviously comming from big car and their marketing propaganda.This is not the first time they have done something like this.2 words : Railroad system.

(An interesting read : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy)

New and Used Passenger Car Sales and Leases : http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics//2005/html/table_01_17.html
Show that over the last decade we switched from a majority of passengers car to light truck.(read SUV)

Let's see what's available in europe, for the same gas mileage range (61-70mpg) as a Toyota Prius,one of the Best efficiency car on US Market.

Audi
A2 Standard
1.4 TDI (75 PS) 64.2mpg
A2 Sport
1.4 TDI (90 PS) 64.2mpg



Citroen
C3
C3 1.4 HDi L 64.2mpg
C3 1.4 HDi 16v 65.7mpg
C3 1.4 HDi 67.3mpg



C2
C2 1.4 HDi 68.9mpg



C1
C1 1.4 HDi 68.9mpg



Ford (Only american company that made fuel efficiency vehicle)
Fiesta Pre-2004½ Model Year
1.4 Duratorq TDCi 61.4mpg



Fusion 2005¼ Model Year to 2005¾ Model Year
1.6 Duratorq TDCi 61.4mpg

Fusion 2006 Model Year
1.4 Duratorq TDCi 61.4
1.6 Duratorq TDCi 62.8



HYUNDAI
Getz
1.5l CRTD GSi 62.8mpg



MAZDA
Mazda2 (2004 MY)
1.4 TD 62.8mpg

MERCEDES-BENZ
A-Class (W168) Hatchback
A160 CDI 62.8mpg



MITSUBISHI
Colt
1.5 61.4mpg



NISSAN
1.5 3/5 door (82 PS) 62.3mpg

Peugeot
1007
1.4 HDi (68 bhp) 64.1mpg



107
1.0 (65 bhp) 61.3mpg



206
1.4 HDi (70 bhp) 65.6mpg



RENAULT
Mégane Sport Saloon 61.4mpg



Mégane Sport Tourer 61.4mpg



Modus 61.4mpg



Clio MY 2006 61.4mpg



Mégane Hatchback / Sport Hatchback 62.8mpg



SEAT
New Ibiza
1.4 TDI (75 PS) 61.4mpg



Skoda
Fabia Estate
1.4 TDI PD (75 bhp) 61.4mpg



Smart
ForFour
1.5Td 95 bhp (175 tyres) 61.4mpg
1.5Td 68 bhp (175 tyres) 64.2mpg



Toyota
Yaris
1.4 D-4D 64.2Mpg



Prius
1.5 VVT-i Hybrid 65.7mpg



VAUXHALL(Opel)
CORSA
1.3CDTi 16v Design 5 Door Hatchback 61.4Mpg



Astra
1.7CDTI 16v LS 5 Door 61.4mpg
1.7CDTI 16v LS 4 Door Saloon 61.4mpg



VOLKSWAGEN
Polo
1.4 TDI PD (80 PS) Diesel 61.4mpg



Lupo
1.4 (75 PS) Diesel 119 64.2
1.7 (60 PS) Diesel 119 64.2



I didn't list all of the cars in that fuel mileage range ,there are more.All of these cars are cheaper than a prius by a large margin.They usually cost between 10000 and 16000 € in europe.(12000-19000$)60mpg (non hybrid) cars are a good % of the EU car market,you basically see as much of them as you see SUV in the US.

If you find these cars too small, there are plenty of larger vehicles in the 40-60mpg,19000-28000$ range.

Here are a few example :

Audi A3 Sport 1.9 TDI (105 PS) 53.3 mpg



Saab 1.9 TiD 120 bhp 52.3 mpg



Volvo S40 Model Year 2006 1.6 57.6mpg



Volkwagen Bora 1.9 TDI (130 PS) 51.4mpg



Still too small ?

The 41-50Mpg ,25000-40000$ Range

Audi A6 2.0 TDI multitronic (140 PS) 43.4 mpg



Alpha 156 1.9 JTD 16v M-Jet (150 bhp) 46.3mpg



BMW 530d (184bhp) Saloon 43mpg



Jaguar S-Type 2.7D 41.5mpg



Mercedes Class C C270D 41.8mpg



The 10 cars listed above get better performance (speed, acceleration, handling and Safety) than 95% of the american cars.Yet they need at least twice less energy to run.For 2008 french government make mandatory that category of car to be in the 75-100mpg.This should be easy with an hybrid technology + a diesel engine.
Let see what's Typical american company,chevrolet,can offer for the same mileage range :

In the 51-60 range
CHEVROLET Matiz 0.8 S 5 door Hatchback 54.3mpg (800cm³ !!)



in the 41-50 Range :
CHEVROLET Kalos 1.4 42.2 mpg



Not even close...

Even some of the most expensive european car are fuel efficient (for their size&power) like the VW phaeton,4000000€ 330Hp V10 TDi 5109lb with 750 Nm of torque, 0-60mph in 5.9 sec.Need 30Mpg.



I used this website to collect the car data : http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/fuelConSearch.asp
The fuel consumption are based on a mix of urban and extra urban cycle.
Obviously all of these car (except the matiz and of course the prius) use diesel engine.This mean they can be run on bio fuel without modification or very slight.How come none of these cars are available in US in a decent quantity ? How come so few gas station sell diesel ? How come tax are bigger on diesel than gas in the US when it's the opposite in EU ?
Since there is no way to change the future trend of higher oil price, the fight has to be for cheap fuel efficiency cars.If nothing is done,very soon,only the rich will be able to drive a car.

I can't stress how important this is.Every American Citizens must understand the energy used by 1 family here is the same as the energy used by 2 european family,2.5 japanese family.What do you think will happen when the world oil production will start to decline ? Do you think other nations will be willing the open their strategic reserve like they did after katarina to help the most wasteful nation
on earth ?

There is no alternative it's either reduce our consumption or an economic collapse in the next decade (not to mention more blood for oil).Fight for fuel efficiency cars or don't complain when you won't be able to afford commuting to work in a few years.

[Oreo]

1. Them there cars aren't manly enough....

to compensate for penis envy. `Murikans need big trucks

I'd trade in my Civic for any one of those (preferably the BMW!)

[DrDebug]

22. A BMW 530d is not manly enough?

It's the kind of cars boys dream of. "Expect to notch 60mph off in 7.1 seconds and the naughty side of 150mph is routinely available where conditions permit." ( http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/bmw-530d-range-1002027.html )

It's a car in which it is very hard to obey any speed limit, because it's build for the German Autobahns and has no problems with cruising speeds of 130 mph for hours on end.

[SlipperySlope]

2. That's nice, but...

That's nice, but most of those cars don't look like something that would interest American drivers.

What sort of mileage do Europeans get on full-size pickups and large SUVs? Those would be very interesting numbers to see. What is their version of a F-150 or Chevy Suburban?

On edit: On rereading your article, I noticed that most of the cars you show are diesel (I know, you pointed that out), which is the contributor of a LOT of the difference.

[acmejack]

4. They can't pass import restrictions

Pollution & safety primarily.

[Solly Mack]

23. They can - but it takes some serious doing

American "size" cars are all over Europe - mainly due to American military - though some Europeans do drive them as well.

The cars do have to pass a very strict test for road safety.
Cars have to be in tip top shape and carry with it several safety items that are not required in America - but are carried by law here.

on the flip-side

My (old, old) BMW does not have safety glass and I can't import it back to America unless I have all the glass replaced with safety glass.

However, I trust my small car's handling more so than American made cars because of the strict tests here in Germany...I know my car is at top performance - it can't legally be on the road otherwise.

[Ron Green]

6. You're joking, right? I mean, the Suburban and the F-150

(and the F-250 and the 350) are the whole problem. I'm watching them go by my window right now, each carrying one person, often a 120-lb. woman.

:wtf:

[Southpaw Bookworm]

8. Got it in one.

SUVs take up 40 percent more highway space than an average sedan, again, usually with a single driver.

[CanOfWhoopAss]

9. Adapt to a changing world or become a fossil fuel yourself. nt

[nashville_brook]

11. SUVs are a marketing delusion -- it started in the early 90s

an illusion of a "leisurely" life full of "outdoors" and non-suburban dreams.

but they are just dreams.

no one takes their Suburban to the hinterlands unless there's a factory outlet mall there.
no one drives their Expedition to the top of a mountain. maybe the top of a parking garage where they can park with no one watching.

people drive SUVs b/c they've been SOLD them. they BOUGHT the illusion. it's warm and happy there. and lots of cup holders.

i LOVE these cars. i'd drive any of them. they are COOL -- and who wouldn't love 60+mpg?

we don't NEED SUVs. it's a complete and total advertising coup that our highways are full of them. people have been able to put their children in CARS for years before the SUV marketing push. they're small -- that's what backseats are for.

:)

[SlipperySlope]

18. Don't be so presumptive...

You are just plain wrong about SUVs being a marketing delusion. I'm on my fourth SUV now, and my first was a 1977 Chevy Blazer. Every one of my SUVs has seen serious off-road duty. I'm not talking about taking some dirt trail in a state park to your assigned camping spot, I'm talking about snapping leaf-springs, tearing off bumpers, and shredding sidewalls.

Don't assume that just because the average SUV buyer uses it as a grocery hauler, that we all do the same. And don't go forcing standards on SUVs that don't belong on off-road vehicles.

[Ron Green]

28. Two issues:

1) You're talking about your own individual choices, rather than the mix of vehicle types on American roads. I don't care if you drive a Deuce-and-a-half, if that's what you gots to do, but I DO care that large vehicles were marketed to millions of people who don't need them for transportaional reasons, to the detriment of our roads, our environment and our economy.

1) You may be illegal in your off-road habits, if not just destructive.

[SlipperySlope]

33. Yes and No

Yes - I am talking about my individual choices. And in no way should how these vehicles were marketed restrict my ability to continue making my individual choices.

No - I've got no reason to suspect for a moment that any of our off-roading activities are illegal or destructive. We simply choose to push our vehicles to the limits of what they are capable of, and then rebuild them to be even stonger.

P.S. I've thought seriously about buying a duece-and-a-half, but I don't have room for it in my garage. One of my local surplus shops usually has 2-3 of them sitting out front for sale. Realistically, I'd rather have a Unimog.

[petgoat]

53. Slope, Nobody's disputing the uses to which you put your own vehicle

but I don't think you can dispute the fact that few people with big
honking off-road vehicles ever take them off-road.

My cousin lives in Manhattan. He says the FWDs there are used to make
parking easier--bulldozer style. He once found his car ticketed for
parking on the sidewalk--when it wasn't parked on the sidewalk when he
left it. Non-standard bumper heights cream the ends of smaller cars in
tight-parking situations, too.

I used to have a high ground-clearance vehicle myself--as a symbol of
non-consumption. It was rugged and cheap to repair. But that's a long
way from the SUV fashion of today. I don't understand what happened to
all those old pickup trucks. They were so simple a child could repair
them, and you could drop a new used engine in them in a couple of hours.
America has lost its yankee ingenuity if you ask me.

[Ron Green]

59. The Chevy "stove-bolt six"

was a great motor, and yes, you could repair it with simple tools and stiff wire. But it did pollute, as all those old pre-1970 engines did. Sit near a running car from the old days now and you can smell the difference.

[nashville_brook]

65. not presumptive -- i'm one of the marketing people

who helped engineer and spread the meme. the companies weren't selling enough product to campers and real outdoors folk.

good for you for getting out in nature -- please off-road with respect for the habitat and have fun in your SUV.

[SlipperySlope]

76. I apologize to all concerned.

I take the SUV issue too personally. I feel I am tarred with the same brush as those who drive SUVs for status reasons.

My primary criteria in picking my current truck were approach angles, departure angles, and breakover angles. I actually use my locking rear differential, and my clutch interlock override.

There are still places in the West where close friends can go out in the boonies, camp where they want, have a real campfire, let their dogs run loose, and not see another soul for as many days as they stay in the backcountry.

I wish I didn't have to drive an SUV every day, but I can only afford one vehicle. Backcountry camping in the desert is one of my few pastimes, and having a 4x4 is the price of admission.

[PaulaFarrell]

91. And you claim it's not destructive???

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until you said you went OFF-ROADING in the the desert! The desert is the most fragile habitat on earth. The destruction you cause in yor 4x4 will last centuries. You are crushing innumerable small animals in their burrows with every mile. You can go camping in a less destructive way if you wish, I'm sure. But it mightn't be as convenient.

I personally see no diiference between someone driving an SUV for the status or for a hobby. Both are deriving their own personal pleasure from it regardless of the effect on the environment.

[YapiYapo]

13. Biggest car you will find in europe

Are Range Rover,



Diesel version use around 30mpg average,gas around 20mpg.

Not so much people fall for the SUV trend,even if you do see some of them.In 10 years in europe, in the most rich country (luxembourg), i have never seen a F-150 or same size.Most of the utilities cars are used by construction company.

45mpg highway or 35 city full loaded for this one :



Private worker like woodcutter use Small SUV.
Rich people that need a 4wd for snow,prefer cars like the Porsche Cayenne.Average 25mpg

[Brundle_Fly]

16. while paying $6+ a gallon

they don't have Suburbans, or F-150's

it would cost them over $200 a tank.

If I have a dollar for every truck I have seen with a FOR SALE sign in the window in the last 3 weeks I think I would have enough to fill a suburban in the UK.

[Tesha]

29. Yurpeans aren't stupid enough to *BUY* full-sized SUVs...

Yurpeans aren't stupid enough to *BUY* full-sized SUVs and they
only buy pick-ups if they're putting them to work (not just to
drive them to go to work). (Actually, pick-up trucks per se are
pretty rare; enclosed trucks are more the norm.)

Tesha

[YapiYapo]

32. Yes most of them are diesel

Most of these cars also exist with gas engine, they do around 10mpg less than their diesel counter part.

In belgium and france, half of the cars are diesels, 70% of the cars bought this year.If only 25% of the Us cars could be diesel, total consumption will drop by several hundred of thousand barrels per day.(25Millions barrels daily ,60% are needed for transportation)

1 gallon of diesel burned does increase pollution versus 1 gallon of gas burn.However this is only true if the engine is hot (the exhaust actually).As you need less fuel with diesel, most of these cars in practice are actually cleaner.

[screembloodymurder]

81. Who are you to decide what interests me?

I would prefer to have the choice to buy what I want. Why aren't these cars available in the US?

[SharonRB]

107. I would love almost any one of those

They're almost all great looking cars. Who says it can't be done? (Getting mileage like that.)

[Sequoia]

3. Great looking cars, thank you!

I take the bus 10 miles into work now because it's cheaper than my fuel efficancy 1998 Nissan. I wish I made enough money to even afford a new car like that, I'd get a slighlty bigger one.

[tridim]

5. Most of those cars would be on my short list of "cars I'd buy"

if I could buy them. I tried shopping for a new car a few years ago and gave up because the selection was crap. The only car that came close to my needs was the VW Golf TDI, but it was too expensive. Why the hell are hatchbacks so rare in this country? I can't think of any reason, short of oil company greed that these cars aren't for sale here.

[Brundle_Fly]

25. have you looked at the Mazda 3 GS sport?

I have a red one, and I love it, costs less than $30 to fill, takes regular gas, has 160 horsepower and was much cheaper than the slower underpowered overpriced Golf or Jetta TD's



and the dash is to die for.

[tridim]

37. I test drove one

and liked my 93 Nissan better. I was basically looking at the Mazda 3, the VW diesels and the Ford Focus. None of them really did anything for me. I wish Honda still sold the CRX, I'd buy one of those in a second. Best. Car. Ever!

[YapiYapo]

55. Try the IBIZA Cupra they are better than CRX

Gas : Cupra 1.8 20 VT 180 ch: 22120 euros;

0-60mph in 6.9 sec
Top speed = 152mph
(US gallon) mpg = 25

Diesel : Cupra 1.9 TDi 160 ch : 22120 euros

0-60mph in 7.6 sec
Top speed = 145mph
(US gallon) mpg = 33

[Ron Green]

63. The TDI is NOT slow or underpowered.

I have two of them, and the torque of these engines is VERY strong. My Golf, which gets 55 mpg if I keep it under 70, will run 100 MPH any old time.

[we can do it]

67. I got one too. I LOVE IT!

Mine's black. Perfect car, good on gas, plenty of space, good price.....I looked at VW's too - I agree slower, OVERPRICED, poor gas mileage for small vehicles.


:loveya:

[Brundle_Fly]

26. dupe

I am an idiot.

[CanOfWhoopAss]

7. Excellent Post. Nominated

[firefox]

10. News from the outside world- isn't that illegal?

Your contribution illustrates how sheltered a life we live in America Inc. I had never seen anything like what you composed for us. I really enjoyed seeing that and thanks for taking the time to compose that for us.

It is worthy of the greatest page for demonstrating our sheltered existance and "the power of one" by the author. It is worthy of the greatest page for content as almost nobody has seen anything like that here in the US since our government has need to protect/shelter us so.

Nominated.

[MADem]

19. You know what makes me laugh, here in the States?

The dickweeds who tool around in their (ooooooooooooooh!) BMW's or (aaaaaaaaaah) Mercedes and think they are such hot shits because they paid a small fortune for them. Go to Germany or Italy, and every other asshole is driving one--to them, it's like Ford or Chevy!!

[Touchdown]

52. Dickweed here. I bought one, because I drove it over there.

If you ever took a BMW for a drive, especially on a country road, then you would see why us dickweeds buy them. People can pretend they're safe in an SUV in an accident. I'd rather have one responsive enough to avoid the accident in the first place. and my 28 MPG 2.5 inline 6 is certainly better than any top heavy (DUUUUUDE, SWEEEEEET!) 4 cylinder Jeep Liberty crashcart most American assholes are driving now.

BTW: I bought mine used, but even with the small fortune, they're almost worth it once you get behind the wheel.

[MADem]

61. Hey, you bought yours used, thus you are not a dickweed

But surely you must understand what I am saying--the LUXURY car of America is the FAMILY car of Germany.

It brings the schmucks down a peg when they see that EVERYONE has one...

[Touchdown]

69. Not necessearily.

I can't buy a Mercedes or BMW like they sell over there. No! In Murika, we have to have heated leather seats, A/C, power windows, remote entry, Sirius radio with 12 speakers, navigational computers, 12 coats of paint, automatic transmission, cupholders, iPod hookups, 24 spoke alloy wheels, umbrella holders (with BMW monogrammed umbrella), and a $120 ash tray, which used to come standard.

75% of those Eurpoean Mercs and Beemers (God I hate that!), have no A/C, crank windows, stick shifts, cloth seats, a basic am/fm stereo, and maybe a crank moonroof. They also sell between $16 and 25 Grand. The dickweeds would go away if I could buy one slightly stripped down. Only Volkswagen still sells basic models, and even then it's rare to find one with a stick.

[burythehatchet]

71. Geez, I have one of each!!

The BMW is the greatest driving experience for those who can't afford a porsche or ultra high performance car. Mine is old, paid for and sits in the garage. The Benz is actaully not that great of a ride (CLK 320). However, I won't get rid of it because I get 34 MPG on the highway which is phenominal for a 3.2 liter engine.
...and I'm not such a bad guy:)

[MADem]

85. Of course you aren't

And your cars are old and paid for. And I suspect you were swayed by the mechanical capabilities as opposed to the "cachet" that the vehicles were alleged to impart...it just is funny as hell to me, seeing as I lived next door to a lower middle class truck driver in Europe who had himself a later model BMW...and wished he had an American car, like a Camaro, because to him, they were jazzy and unique!

[YapiYapo]

68. You are Welcome

I'm glad it was appreciated and the thread was nominated.
Thanks you very much everyone :)

Reducing the gas consumption in US (and in the rest of the world but the more fuel efficient you are,the harder is it) by a few percent could give the world a few more years before peak oil.That's in everybody interest to do it.

[never cry wolf]

12. But, but.....

Will the rear windows hold a murikan flag?

[Benhurst]

14. Thanks for posting this. Recommended. NT

[never cry wolf]

15. Everyone should send this to the auto editors of their local paper

As well as car and driver, etc.

[OrlandoGator]

17. And almost none of those are hybrids, either.

Don't think for a millisecond that technological limitations are preventing the manufacture of fuel-efficient cars in the U.S.

[Tesha]

34. They're turbo-diesels, mostly.

And they're great fun to drive!

Tesha

[OrlandoGator]

38. I've considered getting one and brewing up my own biodiesel.

We'll see. It might end up being too much of a pain in the ass.

[phusion]

41. That's what I was thinking too...

Really, though...At the rate I drive, I would only have to brew up ~5 gallons a week or less at 60+ mpg. That doesn't sound too difficult.

I like that VW Polo!

[SoCalDem]

80. Yepper.. the whole hybrid movement here is just to get big bucks

out of people who are willing to pay top dollar.. Hybrids "can" be just as much of a "statement" as the hummers.. To SOME, they say, "Hey look at me, I'm spending EXTRA to prove what a concerned citizen I am"..

That said, if I could affoprd one, I might buy it for the savings, but we are the ones who buy used Hondas and Toyotas, and then lovingly maintain them until they literally fall apart:)

[screembloodymurder]

83. If that were true, GM would have more hybrids.

But why aren't these cars available here?

[SoCalDem]

84. European cars are efficient, but small

Americans are still in love with bigger,beefier,manlier cars.. I don't get it, but that's the way it seems to be..

One upon a time, your could have a black car or a black car..there were two-door or 4 dopor or station wagon.. farmers bought pick up trucks, merchants bought panel trucks..

That was IT.

America fell in love with the car because of marketing.. SOMEONE had to drive on all those interstate freeways built in the 50's, and to populate those suburbs..

Until suburbia, there was the "family" car.. as in ONE per family./.and for some families, there was the 'borrowed" car for an outing..

Take a look at the garages and driveways today.. It's not unusual to see 6 cars...

[mainegreen]

20. the Citroen C3

Its a fuel efficient dune buggy! I want it! I need it! Gimme gimme gimme!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[liberal N proud]

21. There has been no and still is no pressure for the car companies

to offer a fuel efficient vehicle in the US.

[DS1]

24. Are thoes Imperial Gallons or US Gallons?

Because Imperial Gallons are 20% larger than US

[toad12]

27. First thing I noticed when I went to England

was how small their cars are. No SUV's, no Mini Vans, no Trucks and very few station wagons. The roads are so small over there most American cars wouldn't even fit. The thing that shocked me the most was the number of Ford's I saw, even the Queen has a Ford, but these Ford's look nothing like the one they sell to us.

[tridim]

39. And those small cars would satisfy about 99% of US driver needs

But most of us have been brainwashed to believe that we need gigantic gas guzzlers. The largest car I've ever owned was a Toyota Celica.

[It was not a pretzel]

30. US or Imperial Gallon?

If you got the data from a British site the gallon is 4.546 litres as opposed to the US gallon which is 3.785 litres to the gallon. That will put the actual mpg in US gallons actually lower than what you've quoted.

[YapiYapo]

36. Imperial Gallon

i used this website : http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/fuelConSearch.asp

True the number will be less in US gallon but what you have to keep in mind, all does car are in the same range as the prius an Hybrid-gas engine ,the best fuel efficiency car in the US.

[skids]

70. Diesel != Gas.

Diesel has more energy per unit gallon than gas. 139,000 BTU versus 124,000 BTU.

What A Barrel Of Crude Oil Makes

Product Gallons per barrel

gasoline 19.5
distillate fuel oil 9.2
(Includes both home heating oil and diesel fuel)
kerosene-type jet fuel 4.1
residual fuel oil
(Heavy oils used as fuels in industry, marine transportation and for
electric power generation) 2.3
liquefied refinery gasses 1.9
still gas 1.9
coke 1.8
asphalt and road oil 1.3
petrochemical feedstocks 1.2
lubricants 0.5
kerosene 0.2
other 0.3

Not that that's a bad thing -- diesel and biodiesel are definitely the future, but the mileage comparisons are way off both as a result of Imperial Gallons and the deisel/gas factor. There is a bit of mitigation in the fact that deisel engines are slightly more efficient, but to say the cars have Prius-like mileage is wrong.

They could, though, if they were diesel-electric hybrids.

[YapiYapo]

86. The Hybrid Prius is in the list (Check toyota)

It's listed as 65mpg (imperial) so my point stand correct They are in the same range :)

I'm not saying it's better to buy a diesel car than an hybrid gas, if you can afford the Prius go for it.It will help improve hybrid technology.
What's matter is what you have to pay,in a few years, mile per gallon will really make the difference of being able to commute or not.

[Benzene25]

31. Almost all of those cars are diesels that's why they're efficient

Also some of them are available in the us under different names. . . The bora is a jetta diesel, and the lupo is a fox diesel, etc. Diesels won't become popular in america until gas prices become outragous. The suv's and light trucks are almost all diesels in europe as well.

[Straight Shooter]

35. I just found another reason to leave the United States.

I can't believe a car could get my attention, but I love that little Clio :)

[phusion]

42. My fav is the turbo-diesel Polo

Sweet!

[Straight Shooter]

46. I like the exotic "almond-shaped eyes" headlights on the Clio.

;)

[leftchick]

40. I Love Smart Cars

I saw many more of them in Europe last year than any other brand. Very cute! ;)

[Patiod]

43. But they won't protect the wife & kids

I can't be a real man unless the wife is driving a gargantuan vehicle. What if she gets into an accident with an SUV? You're absolutely irresponsible and don't care about your family if the Little Woman isn't in the biggest thing on the road.

/have heard this so often I could puke

[UncleSepp]

48. I've heard that too... never saw a compact car flip and roll tho

I've seen more than one SUV rollover accident that happened as the result of a relatively uncomplicated lane change. For a teeny car to do that, usually, it has to be hit by something pretty bad. Trying to argue that a giant car doesn't make you safer with someone who thinks it does, though, is about a lost cause. It's like explaining crumple zones. Sometimes, you really are safer if your car is totaled in an accident, if it collapses as designed. The aesthetics of it, however, are hard to sell.

[petgoat]

54. I saw an SUV speeding in a rainstorm in the fast lane

of a six-lane highway--suddenly it just cut to the right, crossed two
lanes of traffic and hit the fence for no reason I could see. I've
never seen a small car just spin out of control like that.

The sense of power and invulnerability that people are sold is very
dangerous IMHO.

[LibDemAlways]

44. I have friends who toured Eurpoe this summer.

One of them is 6'7, and he managed to squeeze into a Smart. I saw photographic proof.

Europeans are light years ahead in public transportation and fuel effecient cars.

In my neighborhood I'm still seeing new hummers. It's a goddamn embarrassment.

[phusion]

45. Seems to me...

That someone could open a business that would help Americans buy these vehicles (get past import documentation, taxes, whatever) and make a good buck doing it.

Is anyone doing that?

I think there's a huge market for these vehicles here in the US...

[many a good man]

47. I thought all European cars looked like this:

Seriously, two years ago I drove one of those Skodas in Ireland. Its as big and comfortable as a Camry. I was worried about gas because the price was about 3 times the cost here -- but the car got three times the gas mileage! I did the calculation three times: over 60 mpg equivalent.

[chaska]

57. There's a guy in my 'hood that has one of those. Very funky, cool car.

[B3Nut]

49. That Renault 206 is sharp...

...I like the VW Lupo too. Then again, I'm fond of Volkswagen, my first car was a 1981 Rabbit Diesel LS...I routinely got 60mpg on road trips. We need cars like these here. Insecure males need to suck it up and deal. That big truck or SUV doesn't impress me. Technological advancement impresses me.

But then again, Europe's social democracies are so far ahead of the curve now in nearly all respects...we've been left so far behind it's unreal.

I'd love a Prius or Insight, but we can't afford a new car right now.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[YapiYapo]

62. The 206 is a Wonderful car

But It's a peugeot not a renault ;)

The 206 won several Rally championship title.

Here is what the road sport version look like :





Here is the World Rally Championship car

[tridim]

78. Are they reliable?

If they can handle the rally circuit I assume they're pretty strong. Who does the international marketing research on these cars? I would guess that cars like the 206 would sell well in the US, especially now that gas is $3.00. It's kind of Psion-ish but with real performance and good mileage.

I want one!

[YapiYapo]

88. France

Peugeot is a french company.It's one of the most sold cars in europe.

The 206 are planned to be replace with the new 207.



They have a good reliability and a good life time.Many of the 205 ,the previous version are still running, they started behing produced in 1983 and stopped in 1994.

[Caoimhe]

50. Maybe it's me but...

So many of those cars look like old Chevettes.

[Touchdown]

66. Cars can only be so different.

Here's what I see...



Which looks like...



...at least to me.

[chaska]

51. Dang, those are cool! That green 'un makes me drool.

[flvegan]

56. What about emissions?

From what I understand, the emissions/pollution for diesel-powered cars is far worse than it is for gas-powered. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

We simply drive and consume too much.

[chaska]

60. Uh, my memory... But... Diesels have higher particulates, but...

otherwise - if memory serves - they are actually less poluting. I may be wrong, but at the very least the polution, the gasses emited, are different, thereby giving some relief.

Google would know more than me.

[YapiYapo]

64. Pollution Stat :

Citroen C2 1.4hdi (Diesel) :
Mpg 68.2
CO2 Emissions 108
Noise Level 71.9
CO Emissions 0.164
HC Emissions N/A
NOx Emissions 0.399
HC+NOx Emissions 0.411
Particulates 0.032
EuroStandard III
Fuel Cost / 12000 miles £665

To compare a Chrysler Neon (Petrol) :

Mpg = 34.9

CO2 Emissions 184
Noise Level 74.0
CO Emissions 1.626
HC Emissions 0.093
NOx Emissions 0.050
HC+NOx Emissions 0.143
Particulates N/A
Euro Standard III
Fuel Cost / 12000 miles £1250

[tridim]

72. Are those stats "per gallon" or "per mile"?

Makes a big difference since the diesel gets about twice the MPG.

[YapiYapo]

75. Sorry forget to mention it's per km

EuroStandard are caluclated in Km , its actualy g/km

Here is the website :
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/fuelConSearch.asp

Citroen C2 Stat :
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vehicleDetails.asp?id=12962

[cynatnite]

58. Wish we could do a smaller car...

Hubby's a big guy, large framed, so we have to be careful with the vehicles we pick. Last time we went car shopping, he got into a KIA and his knees were at the steering wheel. With the wider choices in hybrids now, I think we could take a serious look at those and he wouldn't have any problems.

[colinmom71]

73. What about wheelchair transports?

We have a child who needs a chair, so we have a nice sized car (Ford Taurus wagon - biggest car I've ever owned). I won't be surprised if we have to uprade to a lift van or mini-van once the kid hits his mid-teens (my back already hurts everyday from picking him up and assisting him into/out of his chair). But I really hate how large these vehicles are and how much fuel they consume (~15 MPG if you're lucky)! Not to mention the $45-55,000 price tags!!

So, what are some of the European practical solutions to finding a balance between fuel economy and the space needed to stow a wheelchair? Even broken down (wheels removed and seat folded), the chair takes up most the the trunk of my wagon. Eh, with some luck, maybe Toyota will have a hybrid version of the Sienna out in a few years...

[YapiYapo]

79. There are some special version of Mono-space

You can get good mileage with what european call mono-space which are close to US mini van.

Here is the Renault Kangoo, cheapest of them great gas mileage 5L/100km 47 Mpg (US gal) on diesel or 36mpg with gas.



There is the special version :



Xsara Picasso (43mpg diesel 34 Gas)



Lancia Phedra (40mpg ,32 gas)



Those car price range from 12000 to 24000$

[colinmom71]

94. Those are nifty!

Thanks for posting these! I really like that Lancia Phedra. And yeah, the prices and gas mileage are great. *Sigh!* Wish we could have one of those over here... Like that'll ever happen!

[lostinacause]

74. I dare say this is largely a result of american tastes and the low price

of fuel. Most Americans who purchase new cars clearly haven't valued fuel economy. Why? The price of course. Fuel makes up a small part of the total cost of the car. As this is the case there is little incentive the typical American consumer to purchase a more fuel efficient car. Given the number of large vehicles on the road safety also becomes an issue. Imagine being rear ended by a three quarter tone pickup truck in a Smart car.

[patdem]

77. Wait a diddly doodly squat...most of them have the steering wheel on

the same side as our cars...Why can't we IMPORT them here??? There is DEMAND...where is the SUPPLY!

[VolcanoJen]

82. Fantastic round-up, YapiYapo!

Thank you for this... time to go car shopping!!

[Xithras]

87. They don't meet our safety and pollution standards.

The small cars fail US crash test and safety equipment standards. The small cars get great mileage because they're built with lightweight materials which save on gas, but aren't as safe in an accident.

Remember, one huge difference between America and Europe is that American drivers tend to commute a lot further than European drivers to work. We spend more time traveling at higher speeds on our freeways, and have stricter safety standards as a result. It may be a bit dated now, but there was a study done at one point which showed that less than 20% of car owning Europeans drove on a freeway or high speed expressway at least once a week, meaning that 80% of the driving population was just fine with a smaller, slower car. In the US, well over half of us use the freeway at least once a week.

Should we compromise safety for fuel efficiency?

The larger cars there tend to be built heavier, but they do so at the expense of pollution. Particulate pollution from the larger European engines can be high, and it's highly regulated as a result. While smog forming emissions can be lower in these engines, particulate pollution is far more likely to trigger asthma and other breathing problems in people, and has been repeatedly tied to increased incidences of lung cancer.

Particulate emissions can be reduced in diesels to levels lower than gas burning cars, but doing so requires exhaust scrubbers that both reduce horsepower and lower mileage.

[kineneb]

89. Autobahn drivers??

"We spend more time traveling at higher speeds on our freeways, and have stricter safety standards as a result."

Never been on a German Autobahn, have you? The left lane is scary! :-)

[YapiYapo]

92. Yeah no speed limit

You can do 200mph if you want to :)

About the safety test : EU cars are safer when it come to crash with tree,wall etc.The car is build to absord the energy of the crash letting passenger safe.
They are less safe in a crash against an SUV.But that's a vicious circle, you need big car for safety because other use big car.

[Xithras]

95. I'd like to see supporting info on that.

Every test I've seen says that the European compacts are far more hazardous to passengers in high speed impacts. I saw a video once of a Citroen nailing a tree at speed, and the Citroen practically disintegrated on impact, sending the drivers body flying from the wreckage. An American car, in the same impact, would have accordioned horribly but would have remained whole and kept the driver inside.

European cars aren't built to withstand high speed impacts because the average European driver isn't likely to get into one. Unless we want to spend a few trillion dollars redesigning our cities, we ARE more likely to get into those types of accidents in this country.

[YapiYapo]

97. Some info Mini Cooper Vs F150

http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150

I would like to point that not all of these cars are light some in the 60-70 mpg (imperial) like renault megane, weight around 1400kg (3080lb)

Can i get the one where the drivers body fly from the car please ? I've hard time believing that...

[Xithras]

93. A relatively small percentage of German drivers use it regularly.

Germany, like most other European countries, has a surface street grid that allows most people to get to work and around their cities without ever using the Autobahn. While just about everyone uses a high speed expressway on occasion, the majority of drivers don't need to. Why not? Because most of the European roadways were laid out centuries ago. By the time cars came onto the scene, a good road network already existed (it just had to be paved).

We tend to forget that the US is a relatively young country, and that the majority of our city and roadway building didn't happen until this century. We built along the expressways and freeways and made them the central part of our road system, and as a result spend a far larger percentage of our driving time on them than our European bretheren do. Heck, where I live, we use the freeway to drive across TOWN. If I want to drive to the next town north of mine, which is only a kilometer north across a river, I can either take the freeway and be there in two minutes, or drive 15 miles to a 70 year old bridge that was built downstream. Our entire roadway system was built around the freeways, so the idea of building a non-freeway bridge to connect the two towns never occurred to the government (even though there ARE bicycle and pedestrian bridges).

Our heavy dependence on high speed roadways requires stricter impact and rollover standards than the Europeans have. This pretty much kills the market for lightweight cars.

[kineneb]

101. And in my county there is about 5 miles of freeway

so not all US areas have to deal with fast traffic. The safe maximum one should do around here is 65 mph. After that the curves will get you.
Hubby keeps joking about turbo-charging the Miata. Then I remind him that it only takes missing one curve on the road to turn the Miata into a boat. (Vision of car missing curve on 2 lane road next to large lake...road curves, car goes straight... into drink.)

So there are lots of places in the US where those small cars would be just fine, and possibly better than the bourgemobiles we have now. Some folks around here have taken to driving street-legal electric golf carts. Others are moving to motorcycles. So safety is not an issue; rather, increased gas costs on fixed incomes is their concern.

As a side note, it seem the highway patrol spends time fishing more SUVs than any other type of auto out of creeks around here. They miss the turns and roll. (Smug driver of small, low station wagon here.):)

[ErisFiveFingers]

113. Hmmm...

"Our heavy dependence on high speed roadways requires stricter impact and rollover standards than the Europeans have. This pretty much kills the market for lightweight cars."

Looked at another way, maybe our need for lightweight cars should be killing our dependance on building and using high-speed motorways?

[acmejack]

98. Here's why!

Both the Department of Transportation (DOT) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) advise that although a nonconforming car may be conditionally admitted, the modifications required to bring it into compliance may be so extensive and costly that it may be impractical and even impossible to achieve such compliance. Moreover, some vehicle models are prohibited from importation. It is highly recommended that these prohibitions and modifications be investigated before a vehicle is purchased for importation.

[Oeditpus Rex]

96. The solution to the 'safety' issue is simple

Mer'kins need to stop driving like morans. But that ain't gonna happen, either.

[JohnnyCougar]

90. I'll take that Audi A3 turbodeisel!!!

Wow, that looks yummy!

What a great thrad...nominated!

[MyUncle]

99. Have the conversions from liters and meters been done on these?

This data looks out of whack. I notice it is all miles per gallon. The ratings would go up if it were mistakenly identified this way when they meant kilometers per gallon, or even more so kilometers per liter.

Just checking

[YapiYapo]

100. It's imperial Gallon

Mpg come from this site : http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/fuelConSearch.asp

It will be less in mile per US gal.
They never use Km per liter in europe,when it's metric it's x Liter per 100 km.(So the lower the better)

61-70 mpg Imperial Gal = 50-58.3 Mpg US gal = 3.85-3.36L/100km

51-61 mpg Imperial Gal = 42.5-50 Mpg US gal 4.62-3.85l/100km
41-51 mpg Imperial Gal = 34-50 Mpg US gal 5.73-4.62l/100km

You can use this website to convert liter per 100 km to mpg (imperial) then divide by 1.2 to get Us gal.
http://www.pege.org/fuel/convert.htm

[JanMichael]

102. Kicked becuase it shows how stupid some DUers are.

Ie. the ones that are on this thread dissing reality:-)

[greblc]

103. Wouldn't most of these fit in the back of a Hummer?

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

104. What is the availability of these cars in Mexico or Canada?

I believe that Renault is manufacturing cars in Mexico, through a cooperative joint venture with Nissan, making its Clio at former Nissan auto plants. I like the small Clio and wish I could buy one. I've driven them in Europe and they seem to have more room on the inside than their exterior would have you believe.

[Warren DeMontague]

105. Yeah, but if you drive a little car like that it means your dick is small.

Thats why those guys tearing up the freeway in these things



Are obviously just HUGELY hung!!!

Really, dude... where've you been? :crazy:

[happyslug]

106. The smart Car only gets 37 mpg NOT 61.4 mpg

In the US you can only use EPA test results, and when the EPA tested the smart car it did 37 mpg (Daimler withdrew the smart car and is preparing it to be tested again, Daimler is claiming the test discriminates against small cars, and it does, but by law the EPA test results are the only MPG New Car dealers can use in the US).

Than you mention the Jaguar, Mercedes and BMW diesels (Which do not meet US pollution requirements for particulates). You do mention the VW Bora (Or Jetta as it is called in the US) but the Jetta only gets 36 mpg (EPA test) NOT the 51.4 you cite.

For More see the EPA:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

On line EPA MPG results:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

Now the above may be the result of the US's EPA test procedures which is known to OVER-ESTIMATE Fuel economy (i.e. most people do NOT get what the EPA says the car should get). Various reason for this, for example the Cars are tested EMPTY (i.e. No driver or passengers) with NO other loads (i.e. No Air Conditioner or heater being turned on) and on a system designed in the late 1960s when all braking had to be slow or gradual (or the measuring system would break). Thus both the Highway and City tests are NOT how most people drive and that factors into even lower MPG numbers than the EPA gets.

Now the smaller European cars do get better mpg than American cars, but not as good as the ones you cite. As I said above, it is also agreed that the EPA test does NOT do small (i.e. 2.0 liters and smaller) cars well. Even worse Toyota even admits that the EPA test gives Hybrids a higher MPG than the Car will get in real life (Yes, the OPPOSITE situation of the smart car). People are looking to change this but I do not see it happening for a few years.

[elf]

108. Please talk about the German Driver License also..............

In Germany and most of the western european countries, it's very much harder and more expensive to get a driver license.
It's a real challenge to finally be a car-driver!!
Not before being 18 years old...............lots of hours with a teacher and a REAL test after many weeks.......!!!

A few thousand Dollars cost.....!!!

[elf]

109. self reply I forgot something

and western european cars are much more stable and not so "soft" and shaky like American cars.

I drove for a while a Ford explorer - felt so unsafe because above 60m/h it started to "swim" on the road.

As an excuse counts, American cars are not created for higher speed, German cars need to be stable for 200 km/h and more!!!! ( even though I have to mention, that more and more parts of our Autobahn are strictly speed limited to 75 m/h)

Another interesting thing is, try to turn around on a narrow space a car bought in USA, you need a lot of space!!!!! Or a U turn!!!!!

Try the same with an European car.....right on the spot, not a lot maneuvers necessary (we don't have a lot of space over there :-) )

[YapiYapo]

111. True about the driving licence

It's awfully expensive.Took around 9 month to get and coast at least 1000€.

However german autobahn are never limited to 75 km/h at that speed you get fine for being too slow :)
When they are limited it's 130 km/h (80mph).However outside highway when speed is limited to 50km/h (32mph) you better follow the rule the fee can be outrageous.(up to 5000€ and more)

130km/h is actualy the maximum speed limit highway in most EU country.

You are right to mention that what matter as security is what is called active security, how the car handle ,stability , brake, most european car need twice less time to stop than most american cars.Everything that allow you to avoid the crash is active security.

[YapiYapo]

110. Imperial Gallon

Imperial gallon/1.2 = US gal

Check Post 100 please, it's explained.

About the smart car,there are many different engine in europe for a same car, for example the 206 can be used with no less than 14 different engine.(6 diesel 8 Gas)
Which engine was used on the smart for the test ?

About the Prius and hybrid cars, europe and USA get different Test system to calculate mpg for hybrid , in EU they require the battery to be fully reloaded , in US they don't.(The stat for my OP are EU)

Here is a real Prius Mileage :

Prius : http://randyrathbun.org/prius/prius_mileage/

Total MPG (computed): 47.332 over 38759.3 miles

Prius is listed at 65.6 mpg (imperial) 65.6/1.2 = 54.5 mpg US gal ,it's not that far off if you consider the guy in the stat didn't do much highway overall (when he does he average 55 mpg US).

[Clintmax]

112. I wish all those were available here!

However, THIS is the one I'd buy: