I sincerely wish that DU would disallow all South-bashing threads

[brentspeak]

Disallow them. Ban them. Tombstone them. And possibly even the initiators of these threads.

Why? Because a great number of good Southern DUers have departed these boards, rightfully disgusted at their states being depicted as racist, backwards, ignorant, you name it.

Why not? We don't allow "George W.Bush is a great president" threads here, do we? So the accusation of "censorship!" just falls flat on its face.

Ruthlessly root out the Southern-bashing disruptors on DU, please.

Sincerely,

Brentspeak, a New Jerseyan

[mmonk]

1. Appreciate that as a southerner

but I don't mind. I have issues with my area as well. They do, however, at times, come off a little sanctimonious and naive.

[Ron Green]

2. As a native Southerner, I think such a ban would be wrong.

The same plantation mentality that built the agricultural South is still alive and well in this country. The Yankee tradition of industry and civic participation stands in stark contrast to the aristocratic laziness of the Old South, and is indeed what makes our country good. So it's important, I believe, to be able to talk about the Southern influence on our national identity, and about our better and baser selves.

[merh]

48. A native Southerner, my ass.

Sorry - no one in the South would accept the definition you so broadly and arrogantly provide. The aristocratic laziness you attribute to the South can be found in all states, California, New York, Rhode Island, Wyoming, et cetera, and it did not originate in the South. We Southerners don't own the rights to what you perceive as "aristocratic laziness" nor did we create the mindset (as is obvious if you bother to study the origins of the word you have used to define the attributes of the South.)


a·ris·to·crat Pronunciation (-rst-krt, rs-)
n.
1. A member of a ruling class or of the nobility.
2. A person having the tastes, manners, or other characteristics of the aristocracy: a natural aristocrat who insists on the best accommodations.
3. A person who advocates government by an aristocracy.
4. One considered the best of its kind: the aristocrat of cars.

a·risto·cratic, a·risto·crati·cal adj.
a·risto·crati·cal·ly adv.


In that same vein, the Yankees do not own the rights to the "tradition of industry and civic participation". You should get your mind out of the novels and the past and take time to actually study the region you so malign.
:grr:

[misanthrope]

58. I'm a native Southerner...

...and I have no problem with what he/she said.

[merh]

62. I find that sad.

Most Southerners I know are hard working and very industrious and civic minded. The aristocrats live in California, New York, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Washington, Nevada, Wyoming, etc.

Granted, in the past the culture of part of the South was "aristocratic laziness", but that does not describe the South today. The lifestyles of the past should never be used to condemn a region of the country. Deal with today and so sorry you are ashamed of the South.

[Maddy McCall]

97. Amen.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

124. Same here. He is dead on.

The truth hurts.

[Ron Green]

61. You respond rather testily to my post.

I said, very clearly, that the plantation mentality is to be found "in this country," which includes the states you mention. However, it DID originate in the South, where black slaves were used to build the economy. This is just an historical fact. ALL regions of our country contain both civic-minded and exploitative people. Your phrase "own the rights" is not what I said, or had in mind, when I wrote about traditions.

I don't know how old you are, but I grew up with separate drinking fountains and restrooms. When I was 10 years old, a black man old enough to be my grandfather stepped off the sidewalk to let me pass. I could regale you for hours with stories of the Old South, which is now changed, of course, and which has spread to other parts of the country where rednecks fly the Confederate Flag.

I hope you'll read what I write before you attack me personally.

[misanthrope]

70. Similar to yourself...

...I remember times gone by and how bad things were. While I wasn't born until the year of the Civil Right Act, I grew up in the immediate wake of it and as we all know, attitudes and social systems don't' change overnight...especially when so many don't want to get rid of it.

I'm very wary of things that the younger folks around me don't even notice. I'll never forget the first Mardi Gras parade I ever saw and the overwhelming subtext of segregation, racism, elitism and social stratification that accompanied it.

Someone younger than myself would see the pre-Lenten parade and just think of moonpies or beads. My attention, however, fell upon the homogeneous skin tones of the float riders, the way the crowds willingly segregated themselves along the parade route by race, wealth and status, the fact that I was watching masked white men on horseback being escorted by black kids carrying torches and watching an old caucasian lady swipe at a young African-American boy with her umbrella as they fought over a trinket.

And that all occured during the Reagan Era, not as long ago as many might wish to think.

Much of the old system and thought has not gone away, it has merely shifted in manifestation.

[Ron Green]

82. I agree. And to discount history (and culture) is to live with blinders.

I've got nothing against Southern people. I am one, although I haven't lived there for a few years. What I don't like is a refusal to look at our nation's warts, some of which are the phony and patronizing way many white people treat others, especially black people. And there is a long, long tradition in the South of living in close, intimate proximity with "the colored" and yet perpetuating the system of racial separation that is so subtle, but so strong.

The poster who disagreed with me so strongly is justifiably defending his/her home, but I'm talking about something completely different. I AM talking about the past, and about how it doesn't just go away. I was working in a restaurant in 1964 when the Public Accommodations Act was passed, and I saw the first black customers come in to eat in a previously all-white dining room. I won't bore you with the details, but it was an edifying experience for a young white man who had been taught "separate" all my life and knew, deep down inside, that it was just wrong.

[merh]

74. Slavery did not originate in the South and neither did "aristocratic

laziness." It migrated to the South, just as it was exported from Europe and Asia to the New World centuries ago. There are very few cultures in this world that did not, at one time, practice and allow slavery. It has been going on for centuries.

Slavery was not created in the South and the South was not the only region of our nation that practiced it, as has been recorded in history, (psst, many of our fore fathers practiced slavery). So please, don't use your rather outdated and tainted broad brush to describe a region that I am fond of, when you do it is offensive and bigoted. Our race relations here are much better than most in the nation. No, we are not perfect, but at least we try, often, other parts of the country don't try, they think they are superior because they are not a part of the South.

And please, I don't need you to share your tales from the past with me, I live here and have for years. I have present day experiences. :hi:

[Maddy McCall]

99. Actually, it originated on Carribean islands, with sugar plantations.

[Thirtieschild]

129. Plantation Mentality didn't originate in the South but in England

One historian postulated that the original settlers, nearly all from the U.K. came from four groups: the Puritans, the Quakers, the Scots-Irish and the Aristocrats. The Aristrocrats were second sons of British nobility, landed gentry, etc. They had grown up with sevants (serfs?) and saw the slave as a way of perpetuating it. They pretty much settled in the South and were the big plantation owners. I'm sorry my aging brain can't come up either the historian or the name of the book - I gave it to my British son-in-law.

Another observation from years of tracing Southern ancestors: Very few Southeners descend from plantation owners. Most of us come from hard-scrabble Scots-Irish farmers. Some of them may have had a few slaves but most eked out a living relying on their own muscle and on their 13 or so children. Southerners did suffer after the Civil War, the just and the unjust alike. I have one great grandfather who died in the war, and another who was a die-hard abolitionist (they came from adjoining counties in Georgia). One for, one against, neither owning slaves, yet both families paying a dear price. (I've always wondered what kind of life one of my great uncles led, born in 1866 in Georgia and named Ulyssis Grant Sloan.)

A final observation. JFK said Washington had all the charm of the North and the efficiency of the South.

[Avalux]

3. A sensitive issue

It's important to allow discussion on racism and sometimes, bashing of southerners, red states, whatever - happens. When it does, we do what we can to weed out the really abrasive posts.

Being able to discuss racism in a civilized manner is something we should all strive to do. Realizing there are Democrats living in southern states is important.

Posts like these aren't really helpful, if you see something offensive, please use the alert button.

[Maddy McCall]

7. You say this as though racism is limited to the south and to "red states."

I would propose that southern states, which have larger minority populations and longer histories of race relations, have made more progress on the issue of racism than other areas of the nation.

[Avalux]

I was speaking in terms of posts on this board

Sometimes when racism is discussed, it can often digress into derogatory comments about red states and the south.

[wrathofkahn]

15. AMEN!!

You hit it right on the head!

[Skidmore]

16. Oh, man, Maddy. That froggy with Novak's dentures just

gives me the heebeejeebies everytime I see him.

[greblc]

132. I'm from MN ,I recently traveled to St.Louis for the first time...

I was amazed at the blight and the Segregated Neighborhoods. It just seemed as if there were two societies. I was traveling with a co-worker and he said the Neighborhoods were very similar to Detroit. I spend quite a bit of time traveling the Rural Midwest. It's my opinion that attitudes toward minorities in Small Town America are anything but cordial.

I don't think any area has a monopoly on issues of race. Our Country has Redneck Bigots from Minot to Memphis and Back.

Sorry didn't mean to pick on you,Maddy. I just started rolling and couldn't stop.

[MildyRules]

11. Then we should bring up the fact that racism is alive in well in

the Northern states. In fact, most of the top ten segregated US cities are IN the North.

[brentspeak]

22. I have, but usually nothing ever comes from it

Occasionally, a disruptor will even boast about how little the mods do anything about it. Like an auto thief bragging about how easy it is to steal cars in front of cops.

That's why I felt I should start this thread. Bring the issue out in the open, once and for all.

[Maddy McCall]

25. Constructive criticism of any region is ok with me. But what I'm talking

about isn't constructive criticism. It's bigotry based on stereotypes and elitist sentiments. It's bullshit and should be disallowed at DU.

[DaveJ]

4. I agree that ignorant 'hicks' can come from any state

But to 'disallow' something is a serious choice. We probably would be allowed to criticize other countries that we find back wards. Any intelligent person would understand that it is the fault of the government and socially imposed belief systems, while it may not come off that way to everyone.

[ArkDem]

44. backward not back wards.

[DaveJ]

67. Excuse the misspelling

and excuse the space -- the spell checker here added it without my noticing it. Okay?

[lizlib]

5. I live in the south

Oklahoma.

I'm not offended. I had a coworker just talk about the NRA and how her husband couldn't buy a gun like he wanted.

[CBGLuthier]

27. that is BS

There are practically no gun control laws in OK. Maybe they didn't like waiting or maybe hubbie is a felon?

Or does he want a fully automatic rifle to go shoot bambi with.

[ArkDem]

50. Oklahoma isn't southern.

[Maddy McCall]

95. When did "Indian Territory" become "the South?"

In the historical sense, I mean.

[Sterling]

125. Indians fought for the south and then white people drove them out.

Boomer Sooner baby. Lots of people from the old south ended up in Oklahoma. Oklahoma is the south.

[Maddy McCall]

133. Well that's a simplistic explanation.

Actually, American Indians fought on both sides of the Civil War. And the Revolutionary War. And King Phillip's War. And the War of 1812. And the French and Indian War.

Still, Oklahoma isn't "the South." A lot of people from New Orleans and Mississippi migrated to Chicago, but Illinois isn't "the south."

As a historian, I've yet to meet any historian or sociologist who would categorize Oklahoma as "the South."

[MildyRules]

6. Of course they choose to ignore facts which

show that the top ten most segregated cities in the US are predominantly located in the North...

"the five most segregated metropolitan areas for Blacks in 2000 were, in order, Milwaukee-Waukesha, Detroit, Cleveland-Lorain-Elyria, St. Louis, and Newark (Milwaukee- Waukesha and Detroit are less than one average rank apart). Cincinnati, Buffalo-Niagara Falls, and New York, are roughly tied for number six, but each is more than one average rank behind Newark. The top ten are rounded out by Chicago and Philadelphia (the latter roughly tied with Kansas City..."

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/resseg/ch5.html

[ProfessorGAC]

21. I Fear That's A Statistic In Search Of A Meaning

This is not uncommon, but a statistic that hasn't been transformed into a parameter may be completely unrevealing.

Just a quick example would be to compare the property values for all homeowners in the middle 90% of the population, and compare that to the value for just the black homeowners. If the statistical difference is insignificant, it would be a clear indicator that the city is segregated, merely separated, perhaps by the choice of the black homeowners. (Would need a lot more information to draw that conclusion, but just trying to show an example.)

Chicago is number 9 on this list you provided, but the city is off the radar when it comes to the differential between black and white unemployment numbers. That means the city is LOADED with working black families and the decision as to the neighborhood they live may have far more to do with culture, history, and choice than any planned segregation.

Just a note of caution regarding facts in isolation.
The Professor

[MildyRules]

30. And if this is so true;

"Chicago is number 9 on this list you provided, but the city is off the radar when it comes to the differential between black and white unemployment numbers. That means the city is LOADED with working black families and the decision as to the neighborhood they live may have far more to do with culture, history, and choice than any planned segregation."

Why, in recent years, have Blacks been LEAVING cities like Chicago and returning to the South?

http://www.brookings.edu/urban/pubs/20040524_Frey.pdf

Just a note of caution regarding facts in isolation
The Colonel

[ProfessorGAC]

43. You Did It Again

The reasons are not simple enough, nor singular enough, to make any conclusions about same. It's obviously not because of employment opportunities that disproportionately affect black families, because the differences in employment between black and whites is better in Chicago than the national average. The data for that is available in the Statistical Abstract of the United States. (The website is subscription only.)

The reason you're looking for cannot be explained by something as simple as blacks leaving Chicago. In fact, Chicago is close to becoming "minority white" due to the size of the black and hispanic populations. So, once again, the reasons are complex and multivariate and you're isolating individual items and drawing conclusions.

You've already gotten your nose out of joint, so just forget it.
The Professor

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProfessorGAC]

53. Sigh

I missed no point. There was none to get.
The Professor

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProfessorGAC]

55. Wishful Thinking

If you don't wish to take some advice from someone who has taught statistical analysis for the last 20+ years, that's on you.
The Professor

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HereSince1628]

8. Yeah it cuts both ways and it would be nice to sheath the regionalism

This morning a person from a warm sunny region of the country accused all of us who live in Sennsenbrenners' district as being nazis.

[Maddy McCall]

9. What irks me is posts made by bigots who have chosen not to educate...

themselves on the South and to instead adhere to ages-old stereotypes that, frankly, just aren't true.

[merh]

75. You and me both!

It just drives me nutts!! :argh:

[Pastiche423]

89. How much more education do I need?

I was born and raised in the south. I lived the ugliness of racism on a daily basis.

As soon as my piggy bank was full, I chose to get the hell out of there. For the next two decades, I lived on the West Coast. The city I lived in and even the district I lived in, had every race and ethnicity living side by side.

The experience made me feel that we, as a country, were finally making some progress on racial issues.

Until...

Due to a medical situation, I moved back to the south for four l o n g years. Can you say, "cultural shock"? It felt like I had gone back in history. Way back in history.

It took the perspective of being away from it for me to realize how different (in mindset) regions of our country are.

My introduction to politics happened at the young age of nine when my father 1st entered the arena of politics. Ergo, I have had 42 years to watch and study the changes/non-changes. No one can convince me that many, many Democrats in the south today are of the Dixiecrat variety.

That does not mean that ALL Dems there are, but enough that I am suspicious and uncomfortable w/them.

For the past 5+ years, I have lived on the West Coast again and will remain here.

[Maddy McCall]

94. You left. I'm still here.

I chose not to run away.

[Pastiche423]

104. I din't run away

I chose to move forward, not backward.

[Maddy McCall]

108. I chose to stay in the South and work to move it forward.

And forward it has moved.

[U4ikLefty]

117. Are you black??? n/t

[wuushew]

10. As long as NASCAR bashing is still permitted

...so much wasted gasoline, so much alcoholism :shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

14. Proves my point.

Stereotypes. NASCAR isn't a southern thing any longer. It has fans from all over the US.

[wuushew]

19. Did I say it was?

[Maddy McCall]

31. Do you know the history of NASCAR?

Why don't you read up on it? It's about moonshiners and revenuers.

That's why many of the RACETRACKS are located in the south. BUT fans from all states flock to those race tracks to watch the races.

Your map proves nothing except the location of the RACETRACKS. The fandom is growing all over the US. There are fans in many states, of both political parties.

[AspenRose]

20. TONS of NASCAR fans in New Hampshire....I've seen them

eom

[Maddy McCall]

33. And in California.

Jeff Gordon's home state.

[Zuni]

35. even on DU

there are many racing fans on DU

[Elwood P Dowd]

36. They have a NASCAR track in Loudon, New Hampshire

All 100,000 seats are sold out months in advance.

[wellstone_democrat]

52. Massive fan base near Durham NH track too

From four miles away I used to hear them on race night! I think one of the big accidents that killed a major driver happened there too right after we left. NH, so. Maine, and no. Mass have a HUGE fan base.

[wrathofkahn]

24. Yep.

It amazes me how Deleware, New Hampshire, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, California, Illinois, Nevada, Kansas, Pennsylvania, and Arizona suddenly become "the South" as soon as the acronym NASCAR gets mentioned.


Edit: I knew I missed one! New York.

[Maddy McCall]

34. LOL.

You forgot to throw in California and Massachusetts.

[wrathofkahn]

49. Heh.

I got California in there, but missed Mass.

[Telly Savalas]

86. Let's swat that fly NASCAR...

and ignore the elephant in the room

[Ksec]

12. We will ban south issues when you hillbillies start living right

:)

[Maddy McCall]

17. Pffft. You live in Ohio. 'Nuff said.

;-)

[LittleClarkie]

13. I remember just after Katrina hit

some threads saying that the OP couldn't eke out sympathy for the Red state that had just gotten hit.

I know that I've gotten offended on occasion. When something ignorant happens in a Southern state, some pull out the Southern stereotype.

[Maddy McCall]

18. And, besides not having electricity, that's precisely why I stayed away

from DU during the three weeks after Katrina.

I was certain that some of the "elitist" here would be celebrating the destruction of "red states."

[LittleClarkie]

28. To be fair, they were in the minority

like Bush, we were alittle slow on the uptake. We did manage to beat his speed however. As soon as most of us got the full idea of what was happening down there, the comments abruptly stopped. It only lasted a day or two as I remember, before folks "got it." But it shouldn't matter whether or not there were Democrats in N.O. or that they gave a Dem mayor or a Dem Governor.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maddy McCall]

37. I don't mind joking about a lot of things...

but the misery that my neighbors and myself went through after Katrina isn't one of them.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wellstone_democrat]

45. "elitists?"

you sound like Bush*---

Oh, and I'm in Texas so I guess it would be OK for *me* if I was so inclined to say "all that Falwell crap about storms/disasters hitting godless 'blue states'? Wonder if it applies when Mississippi is hit with something?"

Its a fair question for someone from Mass. to make when the tables are turned. Its pointing out hypocrisy and that is fair.

I saw a lot of concern here, a lot of anger at the FEMA response and a LOT of MONEY go out from a lot of people here who can ill afford it without any restrictions on who it aided. "Elitists?" I guess so but no one turned down those donations and offers of lodging or other help.

I think that we are a wee bit touchy. Those of us in many southern tier Red STates are dots of blue in a sea of Red. My major city is still the most segregated place I've ever lived. I've also never heard anything like the constant use of "colored" or negro" that is regularly used here in white company even among professionals. My county went 95+% for Bush* so , yeah, even though *I* don't play in their cesspool of "culture" I'm not going to either deny it exists in Texas or pretend that because Michigan or someplace has racists that there isn't a persistant underlying *culture* of institutional racism (or religious mania, or fanatical Bush* support) right here where I am that outstrips anything I've seen during residence in other parts of the country.

I guess I don't think all "anti-South" (and what is jumped on as anti-South here is hysterically funny at times) is aimed at *me*

Guess I'll go back to my busy Red State Southern working day now! have fun.

[Maddy McCall]

79. I am NOT painting with a broad brush.

I was not in the emotional state to listen to the few DUers who celebrated the destruction of Mississippi.

And, I'll say this. I'm STILL not in the mood for it, and to anyone who says such a thing, whether about Mississippi or New York, here's a big southern FUCK YOU for relishing the pain of others.

[GaDemo]

38. I'm a Georgian

A red state but a good chance of going blue in 2006 because the sheepeople here are starting to wake up and starting to lay off the cool aid.I think a little southern bashing is o.k..If it's deserved than go for it.Just like any other state in this country.

[Maddy McCall]

42. Celebrating Katrina's destruction of "red states."

Is that "deserved?"

[LittleClarkie]

57. See, I think it's the terminology that's the problem

bashing is never good, as least from where I sit, because it includes stereotypes and half-truths.

Criticisms, on the other hand, are okay.

There's a difference. Making like you're the sheriff from "In the Heat of the Night" to make a point about a Virginian cop who was being an ass is different from bringing up legitimate problems in the Red States.

We wouldn't accept the same kind of behavior if we substituted "black people" or "gays" for "Southerners."

Know what I mean?

[sweetheart]

23. let people be free, no more rules

Some people are not cut out for democratic underground and they find a
reason to leave.

People take their anonymous blogger-selves too seriously. Use your
opportunity to bend the eyes of the world, to make them wise, not to
whine about ignorant threads.

Nobody cares about southerners. I'm dead sick of the south and if i
never heard a peep from or about the place for a few years, that would
be just dandy. ;-) You mean southern bashing like that?

Or is is about red-states/slave states and the allegory of the civil
war south being a substantial metaphorical entity, one that we still
"hate" because we know that evil has defeated us today, whilst the
plantation owners association dines on pork at the white house.

[FlaGranny]

85. It goes like this:

"I don't care if I ever meet another Scot. I hate them. Every single one of them is a rotten cheapskate, and every one of them has a sheep for a lover. Who needs them anyway?"

It's all about a childish compartmentalising of people and trashing an entire region. We wouldn't need any rules at all, if only everyone could act like an intelligent adult. Fat chance of that ever happening.

Anyway, I really don't hate Scots and I love the old Scottish folk music. My mother's ancestors came from Scotland by way of Ireland and to this country back around 1600 (more or less).

[sweetheart]

106. so if we must have a rule

then "respect each other" would cover the remark you quote. I merely
suggest that a more "meta" rule might cover all sorts of abuse of
stereotyping and inflamatory behaviour. And a moderator would be
freer to follow their own intution about "respect each other" means.

Noone of my relatives are from scotland... My grandfather never left the
state of pennsylvannia his whole life. The family came over from england
back in the 1600's (english civil war) as well. So ironically, i'm
living in peet highlands, but with the blood of a colonial english
political refugee.

Yet if they insult Norristown, King of Prussia or Valley Forge, i won't
take offense either, because i don't derive my worth from geographical
identity. Human beings are a wandering species, and my heart accepts
that to describe one of us, is to describe us all, as without geography,
humanity is but 1 heart. :-)

[FlaGranny]

115. EXACTLY!

Respect one another. That would solve every problem in the world, wouldn't it? It will never happen, because we can't even respect each other on this board, and we're supposed to be all liberals here.

:D

[cynatnite]

26. As a resident of a southern state...

Some of the stereotypes are well-deserved. There are some backwoods hillbillies here who still do the old-fashion moonshine runs.

There are also bushbots galore. Just when I think I'm seeing less 'W' stickers on car windows, I find obscene SUV-driving-'W' sticker-wearing bushites in herds.

Fortunately, there is also some diversity with progressive people who want to move forward and not be dragged into a past that is long dead. Anytime I hear someone around here go 'the south will rise again' I want to ask when? Anytime I hear them talk about yankees, I want to scream that we're all Americans and the civil war is over. They lost. Get over it.

I'm a transplant so at times I find all this a little weird. But, I do like living here. The people are friendly and the country is pretty.

Also, after the election last year there was so much southern red state bashing I wanted to puke. I'll admit to getting a little defensive about it at times.

[AZBlue]

32. What happened to Freedom of Speech? (n/t)

[crispini]

41. Doesn't apply on a private message board.

No real freedom of speech here. No freepers either.

[Bridget Burke]

If people want to act like idiots, we can't prevent it.

We can critize, though!

This rule I learned growing up in Texas also serves me well here.

[zanne]

Well, I'll still talk about what is obvious....

Sorry, southerners, but there are major differences in culture between north and south. Southerners are very defensive about these things, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about them. And, yes, racism is a big issue, especially in the south. You can't deny it.

[Bridget Burke]

100. Gosh, there are 2 cultures in the US: North & South

Everyone in the North is all alike. Everyone in the South is all alike. What about the West?

My father was born & raised in New Hampshire, where he was regularly beat up & called a "foreigner" because his parents came from Galway. At least he wasn't Quebecois!

I'm sure the blacks in NH are doing fine--all dozen of them.

[DaveJ]

39. What should we feel? Not anger, but Sympathy... Hope?

Granted, a state's government is not like a sports team, so a citizen of a Red state does not have to represent or support Repug. Therefore it is entirely irrational to bash the South as a whole in the way one might bash an opposing sports team.

That is why I propose exhibiting alternate emotions. Sympathy is the most obvious one. But we can also teach ourselves to display hope that they will overcome. Where there is a problem there is an opportunity.

[bhunt70]

47. as a virginian I get a little defensive about it.

At time I wish people weren't so elitist about their living situations.

I have no desire to live in Minnesota or Kansas (or add your own here) but I'm not gonna bad mouth the people that do or chalk it all up to the state as an entity.

[Skinner]

51. We don't permit "South Bashing"

But I think it would be foolish and counterproductive for us to disallow people from noting the fact that there are regional differences in this country.

This is a website for the discussion of politics, so ignoring regional patterns in political/social attitudes makes little sense to me in this context.

I think we are all smart enough to know that racism and racists exist in all parts of this country. I think we are also all smart enough to know that tolerant, open-minded people exist in all parts of this country.

We hope that members will avoid gratuitous and inflammatory region bashing. We also hope that members will have a thick skin, and not take things so personally. We can all do a little bit to help insure that we get along, but a blanket ban on anything that suggests regional difference makes no sense.

[Spider Jerusalem]

65. There's only one problem with that.

Those "regional differences" are far from cut and dried. For instance, Georgia is a red state, with many religious fundamentalists and overt racists...yet Atlanta is solidly blue, very gay-friendly, and has a largely African-American (and Democratic) city government. California, on the other hand, is a blue state, generally thought of as a model of tolerance and progress, etc., yet go to the Central Valley and you'll find rednecks straight out of "Deliverance" who hold Klan rallies.

All too often, any discussion of regional differences consists of broad-brush statements and negative stereotypes, rather than anything constructive. Surely that's rather counterproductive?

[Skinner]

71. As I said...

I think we are all smart enough to know that racism and racists exist in all parts of this country. I think we are also all smart enough to know that tolerant, open-minded people exist in all parts of this country.

I think this website has more than enough rules. I don't really have much interest in limiting members' speech any more than we already do. I would much rather that we continue to get rid of the gratuitous stuff, instead of banning an entire area of discussion.

[Gormy Cuss]

76. The regional stereotyping can be turned into something useful.

When someone refutes the broad-brush statements here I figure the stereotyping posters and a few observers just might learn something.

Having grown up in Maine, where we all ate lobster every day, married our first cousins, and lived in single wides with old cars and washing machines in the front yard, I used to be sensitive to the stereotyping from the summer visitors from those wonderfully sophisticated places like Boston, Long Island, Chicago, and California. After a while I just learned to fight back with facts.

Sometimes the stereotyping is just annoying, sometimes (as in the gleeful cheers for destruction of red states) it's disgusting. Fortunately, DUers take no prisoners.

[Czolgosz]

113. I'm a Southerner who's not smart enough to know why I should be offended

by discussions about Red States. If there was some memo that said all Texans, for example, should take personal offense from every post which dares mention the voting patterns over the past two decades in Texas (my home BTW), I just haven't seen the memo.

Moreover, there are relevant issues to be discussed on a state-by-state basis. Take this comparison, for example, of Red States versus states which disproportionately consume federal tax dollars versus the tax revenues they contribute:





I think that is a fair point to be made because so many of the same states who survive on a type of federal subsidy sent their electoral college votes to a candidate who purports to oppose "welfare."

Unless you have personally engaged in the hypocrisy which the two maps imply, then you should not take such a comparison as an insult. Sometimes it makes sense to address these issues on a state-by-state basis because the electoral college assigns votes on a state-by-state basis.

[LittleClarkie]

88. Indeed, as long as "noting differences" doesn't turn into

perpetuating stereotypes, which is what sometimes happens.

It is sometimes disheartening to see an otherwise generally enlightened crowd buying into stereotypes.

As a general rule, I often suggest replacing an ethnic group for "Southern" or, as has also been the case on occasion, "Christian," to wake folks up to the idea that they're indulging in stereotypes.

[Zapatero]

56. Boosh Gives the South a

Bad name, Not fair since boosh is from Connecticut. A lot of Great people from the South. I know how you feel. When they start Catholic bashing, it really bothers me.

[donheld]

68. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[SidDithers]

59. Can we ask about why the "Southern Strategy" was effective...

in making many southern states vote Republican?

Sid

[brentspeak]

64. The only thing that gets my goat are people throwing around stereotypes

We've got people who fit those southern stereotypes living here in New Jersey
People should speak about whatever they want to their heart's content. If someone wants to mock a particular southern politician's way of talking or acting, that's fine with me. But it creates unmistakable frayed emotions when extended to entire groups of people.

[junkiebrewster]

60. thank you

Not everyone in the South is red. We happen to love our states too. We just don't control them.

[LannyDeVaney]

66. I have lived my entire life in Alabama..

so I can't speak about any of the other 49, but

<<
their states being depicted as racist, backwards, ignorant,
<<

in my opinion, my state *is* racist, backwards and ignorant. In Alabama's case, the shoe not only fits, but they are on sale at K-Mart and people are lined up around the potholes to put them on. I guess it's the power of prayer doing it.

[misanthrope]

72. Also from Alabama...

...I would concur.

However, I will say that there are indeed exceptions to this rule. Yes, there are Alabamaians who are a bit more "liberated" in their thinking, but they are outnumbered and can feel pretty isolated at times. The result is that a lot of them leave for other environs before they can build the critical mass to amount to much of a political or sociological force. Kind of cyclical.

[LoZoccolo]

69. I tend to tombstone them myself.

My ignore list has been up around 450+ lately.

[jobycom]

73. Yep. Southern bashing is no different than misogyny or racism.

Legitimate criticism of specific southerners, or voting trends in the south, I can get. Plain old Southern bashing makes me want to grab a musket and open fire on some damn Yankees. If I had a musket. Maybe a cyber musket? Let's see....

=====-----(
/

(Okay, it's not a good musket. I tried.)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

98. "Damn Yankees" could be

stereotyping, too. I may be prejudiced against some southerners, sure, but I'd like to know what pisses southerners off so much about us Yankees.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

77. What? Is it over?

:popcorn:

[mattclearing]

78. I hate New Jersey.

I hate the tolls and the smells.

New Jersey sucks!

:D

[txaslftist]

81. Well that's just reality.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

118. And Jersey hates DC!

[txaslftist]

80. I wonder how fast you'd get tombstoned for trashing California?

[Gormy Cuss]

83. Has anyone EVER been tombstoned for trashing the Golden State?

People who live in a state with Schwarzenegger as governor must have thick skins.;)

[wellstone_democrat]

87. its was trashed constantly during the recall and terminator

election. I think everything has been trashed by someone.

With about 10K active posters none of you think that trolls, hysterics, unbalanced people, disruptors or jerks are going to post? Give me a break. I recall the time that I, who is in Lubbock Texas as we speak, spoke about the irregularities in the Tulia Texas case and the problems with the so-called remedy by the courts. Specifically about legal issues gotten from a local attorney who closely watched the case and whose wife was in attendance in Tulia in the court. Pretty specific legal details and some documented history of the area. All provable. Yet I got the thread pulled for "bashing" Texas. Huh? So I guess that everyone gets "stoned" for something....

It did keep me from describing the lovely spectacle of the New Mexico poll watching done by a friend for the Democrats! I didn't want to frighten anyone or be accused of "bashing" with pesky *facts*

(BTW, I've only changed planes in Calif, and have no interest in it one way or the other but it was indeed, as were its people, bashed viciously during the Terminator campaign!)

[FlaGranny]

84. It's especially annoying for SOUTH Floridians -

because almost every single one of us (other than the Cubans)is from New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Illinois, Maine, Massachussetts, New Hampshire, Connecticut (and even Canada - in the winter) and we vote Democratic.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

101. Go Maine!

:D :D

[BiggJawn]

90. I don't have to "bash" the Southerners....

I live in Indiana.
plenty of my "own people" to bash...

Fucking hillbilly wanna-bees....

[WritingIsMyReligion]

91. I'm a northerner born and bred--

Yankee to the bone. I'll admit that I can be prejudiced against the South. Why? I honestly don't know. But MANY New Englanders--at least, the ones I know, and I don't mean to generalize here--have these little mental pictures. Mine are mostly of gun-toting rednecks or whip-lashing slavedrivers.

I know not everyone in the south is like that, but I can't remember the last time some place in the south did something I thought was truly liberal, or did something I could approve of.

Feel free to post links to news articles that would prove me wrong. I'd love to be able to change my opinion.

[Bridget Burke]

105. Houston took in about 150,00 evacuees from Katrina.

Some were in shelters, large & small. Others stayed with friends & family. The main story has been told already. Here's a report on NOLA artists being helped by art groups: www.houstonpress.com/Issues/2005-10-06/culture/art.html

Tomorrow, "Bringing Back the Big Easy" will raise funds for NOLA musicians, many of whom will be performing:
www.houstonpress.com/Issues/2005-10-06/calendar/urban.html

Do you consider art & music "liberal"?

Of course, the people in NOLA are also Southerners. And many of them are Black--do you realize that your contempt for the South includes all the residents?

You really need to get out more.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

109. Very good for Houston.

I'm sincere when I say that.

"Do you consider art & music 'liberal'?"

For the most part, yes. I find that musicians, writers, artists, etc. all tend to be more freethinking, not that there aren't conservatives in the arena.

"Of course, the people in NOLA are also Southerners. And many of them are Black--do you realize that your contempt for the South includes all the residents?"

Yes. I have much contempt for the ideological RW fundies, be they black or white. I know that there are plenty of liberals down south, but I do wish they could be a bit more expressive.

"You really need to get out more."

For a fourteen-year-old, I don't think I'm doing too badly, you know? I'd like to get out more.

I don't mean to hate the south. I simply find that sometimes all my worst expectations of it come true, just as all my worst expectations for NYC, or my home state of Maine, or New Hampshire, or Massachusetts, might also come true.

[Sterling]

127. Funny you mention that.

I got this email form a friend who lives in Oklahoma. These emails don't ever come to me from friends in NY or LA.

Go figure:







Things I have learned from watching network TV news during the last 8 days



White people don't make good news stories.



The hurricane only hit black families' property.

Only black family members got separated in the hurricane rescue efforts.



New Orleans has no white families.


New Orleans was devastated and no other city was affected by the hurricane.

Mississippi is reported to have a tree blown down.

The hurricane blew a limb off a tree in the yard of an Alabama resident.

Ignore warnings to evacuate and the government will come get you in helicopters and give you money for being stupid. They will also be bitched at for not getting there fast enough by half the people they are risking life and limb to save 20 hours a day.



When you are hungry after a hurricane, steal a big screen TV.

Don't give thanks to the thousands that came to help rescue you, instead bitch because the government hasn't given you a debit card yet.



The hurricane resulted in 23 billion dollars being allocated to the CITY of New Orleans. Now the city is free of welfare recipients, looters, and gang members, who have moved to YOUR city.

[Bethany Rockafella]

92. Well I'm from the south and I'll bash the south as I see fit.

Sorry if you can't take it.

[QC]

102. YOU'RE SO BRAVE!!!!!

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Touchdown]

93. This is a two way street.

Usually the first thing a southerner writes is that they're a "proud member of the South", or some such regionalistic verbal wall he/she builds between their personal mason/dixon line, to make their point, sound more legitimate, or for whatever reason. Much like Dr. Phil and his "We have a saying in Texas..." crap, some of us get awfully tired of the "I'm from here, so you all can kiss my ass" mentality... the majority of which comes from the former CSA, and only a smaller amount from NY. Are you an American, or are you a hyphenated one? If the southerners on this site, who it appears to me to have MUCH thinner skin on them than anybody from the other reigions, keep pushing the differences between them and us northerners/westerners/rust belters/left coasters, then why are you blaming the rest of us for seeing those differences more than the similarities, especially since you are the ones making being "southern" an issues all the time, for either pride or indignancy?

It's where you live. There is nothing to be "proud" of. It's a plot of land on the Earth, it's not paved with gold, and God didn't bless you with it. Look Away!

[U4ikLefty]

121. BINGO!!! n/t

They can dish out the "fruits & nuts" comments about California, but can't take it when WE dish it out.

So please stop displaying those fucking disgusting "Conferderate Flags"....that goes for you idiots/white-trash in Idaho, Oregon & Mid-California as well!!!

You know you they are!!!

[newsguyatl]

96. as a native and current southerner

they don't bother me... the stereotypes, for the most part, are true.

[YouthInAsia]

107. I dont understand getting upset about a state or ANY geographical place

for that matter. It just isnt something, that in the great scheme of things, one should get upset about. Who cares. Really?? Im from Pennsylvania and if someone called Pennsylvania every name under the book and then took a dump on the border I could care less. I'm certainly not gonna lose and sleep over it, I really dont care. Its just a spot on a map. I just feel that there are SERIOUS things for one to get upset about. This, is not one of them (IMHO)

[BlackVelvet04]

110. I'm a born and bred southerner

and I can tell you I couldn't care less if someone bashes the south. Any southerner that sensitive needs to move, imo. I've lived in the north and I've lived out west and I've lived in the southernmost part of this country and guess what....there are idiots and assholes all over this country. Not once has anything anybody said about where I live changed who and what I am.

Your intentions for this post were probably good but it's time for people to quit whining about being offended.

[skygazer]

111. There are a couple of ways to deal with those threads

Or any other threads that offend you.

1. Don't read them.

2. Don't post in them.

3. Alert on posts that are inflammatory or against the rules.

Your call to "ruthlessly root out the Southern-bashing disruptors" sounds disturbingly like George Bush's calls for a Christian jihad against the Terrorist Menace.

Not everyone here is always going to agree. Not everyone here is always going to be polite. I read things that offend me greatly all the time but that doesn't preclude the author's right to post them. If they do post something beyond the pale, I hit alert.

It's as simple as that.

[Greyhound]

112. If you're not "racist, backwards, ignorant or you name it" why are you

so upset by others (who may well fit into one of those categories themselves) portrayal of the south as those things? I lived in Atlanta and traveled throughout the south for my job, and I know there is a prevalent attitude that Atlanta is not 'really' part of the south because they don't necessarily conform to the majority position. So there is Atlanta bashing going on in the south. I've also heard many disparaging remarks directed at Florida by southerners for many of the same reasons. Florida is not 'really' part of the south.
BTW I loved Atlanta and often think the biggest mistake I've ever made was moving away.
I also ran into a disproportionate number of ignorant bigots down there but never assumed all southerners were like that.
:shrug:

[AirAmFan]

114. If the Klan hood fits, why shouldn't the South have to wear it here?

Also, South = overwhelmingly Republican among whites--enough to overwhelm solidly Democratic votes from African-Americans. Why do you want to stifle the voices and interests of Southern Democrats?

[ulysses]

116. so comforting to know that there are no racists elsewhere.

:eyes:

That said, I'm not too worried about the treatment of the south here. We do have more than our share of idgits.

[Greyhound]

126. FYI the KKK was started in IN. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

134. You just proved how little you know about local and state politics in...

the South.

[Batgirl]

119. I feel so fortunate being from one of those "low self esteem" states

Michigan, and not only that, but from (gasp!) FLINT. The city of Detroit, which I'm fond of, is a reliable punchline (like Cleveland) for latenight comedians. We're regularly featured on those perennial "worst places to" lists, and those of us who live here don't even flinch. Not only do we not get offended, we can even perceive truth in some of the bashing.

But I care about the hurt feelings expressed by some of the Southerners on DU. I think it would feel weird live in and love a region that's the target of so much anger and blame. Especially if a lot of it was not very informed.

For instance, I Googled "worst cities to live in the U.S." and found out something I didn't know. This article appeared in "The Black Commentator" -- http://www.blackcommentator.com/146/146_cover_dixon_ten_worst.html -- the topic of discussion was "The Ten Worst Places to be Black". And the criteria was, where are blacks dispoportionately incarcerated? Interestingly enough:

"Alert readers may have noticed that except for Delaware and Texas, not a single southern state made BC’s Ten Worst or its Dishonorable Mention, even though Louisiana is well known to have the nation’ highest per capita rate of incarceration for its whole population. How is this possible?

The answer is that our ranking is based solely on the percentage of a state’s black population behind state and local prison walls. The following table sorts the top 13 states in order of their relative black populations, from Mississippi with 36% to Illinois with 15%. This statistical approach catches all the states of the old South except Texas and Florida, and reveals an interesting pattern."




and also:

"Suffice it to say that for practical purposes, New York City and its environs are not that much better a place to be black than Texas.

STATE...........BLACK-WHITE DISPARITY

New Jersey............13.15 to one

Connecticut...........12.77 to one

Minnesota.............12.63 to one

Pennsylvania..........10.53 to one

New York.............. 9.47 to one"

I guess what this tells me is, the Red/Blue thing is probably an overly simplified way of thinking about the problems we're grappling with in this country. To me, it's not so much a matter of tip-toeing around issues for fear of offending someone, rather it comes down to usefulness. How much "bashing" is done in a self-reassuring way, i.e. "the problem lies with 'them' ". Far too many people voted for Bush in my state for me to think this way.

[chaska]

120. You know, you may just have a point there, OP.

[McCamy Taylor]

122. Disagree strongly. Lifelong southerner. We must talk about the

dirty secret that is institutionalized racism/sexism and all other kinds of isms in the South.

Suggest CJ Cash's "Mind of the South"

[Cults4Bush]

123. Alert on the offensive post in question and state your reason kindly

in the space provided on the alert form.

Also, why just the South? South almost always has a DU'er or two willing to go to bat for them in a heartbeat. I've seen California and Ohio take as much of beating here as any Southen state (well maybe not FL and TX) yet not nearly as many go to bat... but again the point is that if you follow the rules when someone seems to be in violation of them, eventually you'll get your wish as stated above.

[really annoyed]

128. Good, no more North bashing either

I noticed that it gets rampant from those defending the South - and usually, these people aren't even Southerners! It's been my observation that most DU members from the South are great people. Even better, these individuals work hard to promote ideals of liberalism in their hometowns. That is not an easy job, I assume.

It's fun to pretend that the South is morally superior to the North, but it's not the case. Many of the racial problems in our country originated in the South. Yes, the North is a bastion of racism too, but that does not negate the South's roll in it all. We need to fight the NATIONAL problem from racism - from small towns in the South to urban centers in the North.

On Edit - I have Southern blood, my whole family is from Tennessee and Missouri. And my ancestors were Confederates. We're nothing but transplants to Michigan!

[Maddy McCall]

135. Another person ignorant of history.

[pitohui]

130. i agree & it's especially inappropriate now

it really takes a big man to kick people while they're down :sarcasm:

the bashers should be ashamed of themselves

[Chovexani]

131. Someone call the wahmbulance.

:eyes:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

136. I wish that ALL religion bashing threads would be banned...

But I guess I could wish in one hand and shit in another...Something tells me the wish hand isn't going to get too full.
Duckie