On Southerners and Southerners by a Southerner...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

(From the U.S. Department of Redundancy)

1. Rosa Parks is a Southerner.
2. Martin Luther King was a Southerner.
3. Truman Capote, Tennessee Williams, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Faulkner, Grisham, Welty, Conroy... All Southerners.

Tom Yossarian Joad. A Southerner since 1961.

The South? Thanks, Hollywood. Especially for Gone With The Wind, Deliverance and countless TV shows that essentially show the South as the land peopled by Forest Gumps.

That said, we have more then our share of assholes. Just like any other part of the country. Unfortunately, most of our assholes have thick Southern accents.

Luckily, most Southerners have developed thick skins and even enjoy poking fun at the stereotypes.

However, when someone does paint the Southeastern states with a broad brush, they are likely to ruffle a few feathers. With good reason.

We are the birthplace of some of the most astounding and effective fighters for the principles that we here at DU claim to hold dear. We were the battlefield for civil rights, just remember, there were two sides in that battle and the vast majority of the good guys were from the South as they fought a status quo that had been entrenched for a century.

I can bash Southerners, but you can't. Why? It's a southern thing. You wouldn't understand.

If you want to understand, read Eudora Welty, Harper Lee and Clyde Edgerton. You can find the Rural South in these writings.

Peace out.

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. It's just that the bad ones are so amazingly bad!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

2. Like Richard Nixon or Ted Bundy? n/t

[wrathofkahn]

4. ?

They were from the South?

Nixon, as far as I know, grew up in California. I don't think that Bundy ever left the Midwest, but I could be mistaken.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

6. (I should have put a "sarcasm" thingie with that.

[wrathofkahn]

8. Sorry

:blush:

[cmkramer]

11. Ted Bundy

Was from Seattle. He was executed in Florida.

[wrathofkahn]

12. Hmph

For some reason I had him placed in Milwaukee. I must be confusing him with someone else.

[QC]

15. You're thinking of Jeffrey Dahmer. n/t

[lynne]

126. Hey, where's the "All Serial Killers Are From The Pacific NW" thread?

There seems to be a run on geographic threads today and I've always wondered why the PNW was so full of serial killers.

[notadmblnd]

40. he was tried and executed in Fla

but I believe he traveled around alot.

[elehhhhna]

107. Bundy-Northwest.

[The_Casual_Observer]

17. You brought it up.

[tk2kewl]

141. that's probably why the good ones fight so hard and grab the imagination

[noahmijo]

3. "Massachusetts Liberal"

I'm not even from Massachusetts but in addition to the stereotypes of southern people how about the pathetic label rube repukes give northeasterners especially from the state where America was essentially rooted in the making?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

5. But... Labels are sooooo convenient!

At least the stereotyping there seems to be restricted to the Rebublicans and their ilk.

[joemurphy]

7. When we have to listen to the likes of John Cornyn, Jeff Sessions,

Zell Miller, Trent Lott and Saxby Chambliss -- well, darn it, it's just hard to resist being just a might critical -- especially when they do things that make us mad -- like enthusiastically support everything Bush does.

Hope all those Southerners don't take it amiss. It's a Northern thing. Try to understand us. We'll try to be more restrained in our critique in the future.

[QC]

9. Rick Santorum, James Sensenbrenner, Peter King, Arnold, Bob Dornan.

Just meditate upon those names whenever you're tempted to engage in juvenile broad-brush attacks on your fellow Democrats.

[joemurphy]

10. LOL. True. We've got our benighted idiots too.

The North-South thing is probably a carry-over from the Civil War. Even if slavery hadn't become institutionalized in the South, we'd probably have fought a war for some other reason. :-)

[ultraist]

20. And dubya, he's from CT

:rofl:

[elehhhhna]

108. You forgot NORM COLEMAN

[Zomby Woof]

13. Are you from Indiana?

Just asking because you have a Pacers avatar.

The KKK was founded in Indiana - the glorious "north".

The "northern thing" is just bullshit. Remove the plank in your eye before you point out the splinter in ours.

[joemurphy]

16. Yeah, I'm from Indiana. And calm down. I wasn't trying to be

anything but maybe mildly offensive.

The KKK wasn't "founded" in Indiana. But you're right, we had a lot of Klansmen here, mostly in the 1920s. They were run by a guy named Stephenson. The Klan even had a couple governors in their pocket for a while. Stephenson ultimately raped a girl on a train and it proved bad for the Klan's membership rolls. We don't have Klan here anymore. Benighted Rednecks, yes. Dan Burton is from Indiana. Of course we also have Lugar and Bayh too.

But there really ***is*** a North/South dichotomy. It's hard to deny. The South used to be solidly Democratic, mostly because the Democrats weren't Republicans -- the party the South blamed for the Civil War. It pretty much remained solidly Democratic until Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act. Then the South started becoming solidly Republican. After that, Democrats haven't been able to get many votes out of the South on the national level unless they went to the expedient of running a Southern candidate. Fortunately for the country, Carter and Clinton were highly intelligent people.

Personally, I think we still need a Southerner to win.

But the last time I looked, the South was pretty Red and the North was pretty Blue.

[peacebaby3]

23. As much as I would like for you to claim the founding of the KKK...

it was actually established right after the end of the Civil War in Pulaski, TN by Nathan Bedford Forrest. It went underground for quite a few years in the late 1800s and was revitalized by Stevenson in Indiana around 1915, I think.

The KKK definitely was originally established in the South.

[joemurphy]

25. I think that's right. Although to be honest, I went scurrying to

look it up on Wikipedia. By the way, the Wikipedia article on the Klan makes interesting reading. They say there were really two Klans. The first one that you alluded to began after the Civil War and was pretty much dead by the mid 1870s.

The second one sprang up following the lynching of a Jewish guy named Frank in Georgia around 1915. Frank allegedly raped a girl. The jury was intimidated by a mob and he was convicted. The governor commuted his sentence, but another mob kidnapped him and hung him. The girl's name was Mary Phagan. Immediately afterwards a group calling itself the Knights of Mary Phagan began cropping up all over the country, but primarily in the Midwest and South. It evolved into the second KKK. It was apparently abetted by the popularity of a movie called Birth of a Nation that painted the original KKK in a favorable light. Apparently Woodrow Wilson was a big Klan enthusiast. The stuff on Stephenson is in the Wikipedia article if you're interested. Apparently two Supreme Court Justices were Klan members. In fact, the Klan candidate McAdoo almost won the 1924 Democratic nomination for President. Amazing stuff. It's hard to imagine what it must have been like to be a Black or a Jewish or Catholic immigrant back then.

[peacebaby3]

26. Ah, yes. The GA group is the one I am thinking of in 1915. It has been

some time since my college days. History major in the South. I'm suppose to know all of this info off the top of my head. LOL

Yes, it definitely had to do with the movie, Birth of a Nation. I don't know if you have ever seen it but it's pretty wild.

There was actually a huge Ku Klux Klan meeting on the top of Stone Mountain in GA (in 1915, I believe) and that is what was considered the re-birth of the Klan.

I do also remember a lot about what you were speaking of about the Klan in Indiana as well.

[joemurphy]

28. Yeah, I saw Birth of a Nation...But in a film history class!

D.W. Griffith, who directed the movie, had all kinds of innovative film techniques that he employed in it. But the film itself should have been entitled "Birth of the KKK". All the Blacks in it were in Yankee uniforms and lusting after virginal white Southern women.

Having seen it, you have to wonder what Woodrow Wilson found good about it. But apparently a lot of other people had the same reaction because it sparked an increase in Klan membership.

The popularity of the Klan in Indiana has always puzzled me. In the 1920s, Indiana was basically a rural state. There certainly weren't that many blacks there then and what there were lived in the cities (which were really small towns). If you ever read any Booth Tarkington you'd get a real flavor for what Indiana was like then. I guess I have trouble understanding why rural whites, who never saw any blacks, Jews, or Catholics, felt so threatened by them that they felt the need to join the Klan.

[RoyGBiv]

152. The KKK founding ...

The historical KKK is not one organization. At least three distinct incarnations of it exist, one of which was most likely founded by Forrest in the aftermath of the Civil War but which had very little in the way of a centralized command structure that defines coherent organizations. More precisely, the original Klan was an amalgamation of different groups of so-called unreconstructed rebels who banded together to oppose federal occupation. That organization was essentially gone by the 1870's, and a second group that adopted the name and a more coherent structure arose some years later. The second Klan was the nastiest of the bunch, although neither of the first two groups were what we might call benevolent.

The most recognizable Klan is associated with the emergence of white, protestant nationalist movements of the early 20th century. This was truly a national organization. It adopted the name and trappings of the original Klan, some of which were at best mythical, and some of its ideological underpinnings, but it was more expansive in scope than Forrest's Klan. Some fairly decent people were involved with this group over time, having been caught up in a nationalist furvor that went with the world wars.

The modern Klan has a direct relationship to the Klan of the early 20th century but is ineffectual and populated largely by the paranoid, lunatic fringe.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

119. Or Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh...

Jesus, the whole continent is rife with assholes. It's the fact that so many try to segregate the South as being the home of assholes that tends to make us a tad sensitive to the issue.

Peace.

[MADem]

82. I'm one-a them!!!!

And if anyone says anything about it, I'll just go find my CAAAAH that I PAAAAHKED in HAAAAVID YAAAHD and...run the offender over with it!

Stereotypes are just shorthand for "dunno 'bout them, never really lived around or amongst them!" It's a way to find comfort in ignorance...

[noahmijo]

89. Well I'm a transplant to Arizona from.....

New York City (Da Bronx and Upstate to be specific)


See I stick up for you Mass boys now and then..just not during baseball season. Sorry bout what happened today...I would've loved to have seen another Sox/Yanks ALCS ;)

[MADem]

91. Yeah, win some, lose some

While my heart is heavy, I guess we can't be getting too full of ourselves, so we'll just have to keep our eyes on next year...I would have liked to see the Cubs go forward if we didn't, after all, they deserve a curse reverse, too...

I just wouldn't want to see a SOX - CUBS matchup. Too painful!!!

[Ksec]

14. The south threads are bad and so are the north bashers

Whats up with that?

[BillZBubb]

18. The South is the most consistently right wing portion of America

Utah, Alaska, and the plains states do give them a run for their money, though.

[QC]

27. Um... check the numbers and get back to us on that one, friend.

Here's a good place to go: http://uselectionatlas.org/

[BillZBubb]

39. Not sure what you mean.

The South, with few exceptions, since Nixon, has been tending more and more Republican. Sometimes a Southerner on the ticket got more Democratic votes there, but that's about it.

What numbers were you referring to?

[Laelth]

57. The deepest red ...

... is in the Great Plains and in the Great Basin, not in the South.

But I hear ya. I hate that the South is going red.



-Laelth

[marions ghost]

143. thanx for posting that

Gee, the South and the North look kinda similar in color, don't they?

[RoyGBiv]

59. Numbers ...

The numbers being referred to are those that show the most consistent "right wing" portions of the country are not in the South, indicated by a map shown in another reply to this post. The South has significant sections that trend toward Democrats and might even have more if so much effort were not expended by Republicans to disenfranchise the poor and racial minorities.

[QC]

77. Thank you.

I thought my point was so obvious that it would not require explanation, particularly since I provided a link to an easy color-coded map, but clearly I was wrong.

[BillZBubb]

112. Thank you for WHAT?

If your point was based on one map from the 2004 election, that hardly backs your claim. You said look at the numbers. I'm still waiting for a LINK TO NUMBERS over a PERIOD OF DECADES that proves you point.

"Easy color coded map"--what a crock. "So obvious"--what bullshit. Your response is superficial.

The only thing that makes the South look not reddest of red is the large minority population there which is smart enough to vote against the Repugs. Without them, the South would make Utah look liberal.

[BillZBubb]

111. This makes NO sense.

You are basing your point on the map of ONE ELECTION???? I am talking about the past 30 years. Once Texas flipped to the dark side, the South has become a Repug electoral and Senatorial stronghold.

The only thing that keeps the South from being the reddest of the red is the significant African American population which has enough smarts to vote against Repugs. The other ultra red states don't have a large minority population to balance out the rednecks.

[Pepperbelly]

118. Come on, now ...

Clinton made serious inroads into the south in both of his elections, winning many southern states. He made no inroads into Kansas, Nebraska, the Dakotas, Idaho, Utah, Alaska, or Montana.

[RoyGBiv]

144. Actually, no ...

I'm basing my explanation on an intimate understanding of Southern political demographics since the end of the Civil War. If you would like to have this battle, I am more than prepared.

Your point is based on a skewed association of one or two demographic categories with their common voting patterns, which have been fairly consistent over time, but trend slightly toward the right of the traditional linear political compass. That linear measurement is where you analysis fails initially, but it breaks down entirely in that you separate those individual demographic categories from the larger population and call it representative.

If you don't want to go deeper, again, look at the maps. Go to Dave Leip's site and look at maps as far back as you want to go. The most consistently right wing portion of the country is not the South.

[RoyGBiv]

58. Check your numbers ...

The most *consistently* "right wing" portion of the United States, in modern times, is the MidWest and the western states of Utah, Wyoming, Montanta, etc.

The South is generally more conservative than the NE, but it is not right-wing in the traditional sense. Populism runs strong as do latent socialist tendencies, in the form of labor rights, that the majority of the population there do not or refuse to recognize as such. The reason for this is complex, so I won't try at this point. I mention it merely to suggest that your summary is not complete.

[flyarm]

19. get over it....

hahaha thats from me a nj gal ..here...we get the reputation in nj, ny, pa, conn being the rudest people but i live in both nj and fla..and i will tell you i see equal rude people in both my states!!

but seriously...i have lived in Missouri, kansas, chicago , milwaukee, dallas , sacramento, sherman oaks ( valley ..l.a.)
arizona, Philly, mid n.j., N.Y., florida ( both coasts) toronto, puerto rico, venezuela..and all have good people and all have bad people..

and i have been a flight attendant..and i will tell you there are rude people from every state and there are wonderful people from every state...



are there rude people in ny ..you bet, are there rude people in florida, you bet, are there rude people in dallas and denver and atlanta....yes sireee,..but there are equally wonderful sweet and loving people from all those places and from every state and every city..

are there smart people in ny..yes are there dumb people in ny..you bet..are there dumb people in the north?? are there dumb people in the south...well that would be a negative and a positive... well i think you get my point...
this country is a melting pot...

but it seems since * has been president the southern states have taken it upon themselves to act like they are the only real americans..and that kinda gets in the craw of alot of other americans...it seems as when we were on the march to war..the good people of the south were calling those in the north ..unpatriotic..well that didn't sit well...no not people here on du ..and not southern liberals or progressives..but it was done and it was encouraged by the * cabal...and those who were the "so called uniters"....a broad brush was painted on ny'ers that they were unpatriotic and filthy and all sorts of nasty comments came out of the south and mid west ..at those in ny and the northeast and calif who protested this war...

and to be honest it was shoved down the proverbial throat of north east people that we were all unpatriotic...you may not have noticed if you were in the south..but it was not something that was missed by people in the northeast...or the people of calif...they were equally called unpatriotic...

but we do have tough skin...and i say we because i was born here( north east) ..but i have been fortunate enough to live in so many places ..i sometimes see things all across the board...and i have spent a lifetime traveling this great nation of ours...and i will tell you...it was people from the south who put their hands in their pockets and helped those of us in the Northeast after 9/11 ...it was people from the mid west who sent their sympathy..it was people from the deep south who sent workers and firemen..it was people from Calif who came to help us..it was people of every religion and every color ..who cried with us and tried to help us every way they could...i still cry when i think of all the wonderful people who shared our pain and our lives to help us...

and i will say this..it was the north east and the rest of this great land of ours who sent everything they could to help those who were hurt and devastated by the hurricanes to the very deep south.....it was the northeast who cried with you..and people from the mid west and calif.....and sent everyone and every thing we could to help..and are still helping...

because we can say whatever..its like sticks and stones will break my bones...but when anyones bones are broken in this country ..and when anyone is hurt and needs help..we are what we are...and that is AMERICANS.........

we all care about each other..no matter who tries to divide us..when we see others in need or who are hurt..we all step up to the plate and we reach out a helping hand..we don't ask questions ...we just do it..

but if you were to say ...people should not have an opinion..or not make silly comments...well first of all... what fun would that be??..but most of all..the very freedoms we seem to be fighting for here and fighting for with all our might..not from other americans... but from evil who have placed themselves in our government and who have tried their hardest to divide us..by color..red and blue.....some seem to want to extinguish those very freedoms...

ok ok...now you can call me a rude northeasterner...but don't ever call me unpatriotic....and when your southern neighbors call me dirty and unpatriotic..tell them ..i am them and they are me...


an AMERICAN!

I AM NEITHER RED NOR BLUE...I AM SIMPLY AN AMERICAN!


..and i may say something stupid from time to time..but one thing is for sure..if my fellow American needs my help..i will be here to fill trucks of food for them..i will buy food for their babies..as much as i can possibly afford..i will work my ass off to help them,..no matter how tired i get..because i love them..my fellow Americans!!

fly

[Gelliebeans]

97. fly, you are just the

kewlest :thumbsup: ;) thanks for the words, YOU make me proud to be an American

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

121. You say "The Southern States have taken it upon themselves to act

like they are the only real Americans."

No. Have you heard talk radio lately? Listened to Fox News?

There are vocal assholes all over. It's beyond me why so many only remember the ones with a Southern accent.

[flyarm]

146. NO SIR...YOU

seems to have taken my words out of context and out of their paragraph...please go read again....i am saying prior to the war the attack that was made on ppl from the northeast and calif, and any who were against this war...we heard the words..but the words are insignificant is my point...please go re -read!!

fly

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

147. I love you flyarm, but let me reprint the paragraph in question in its

entirety:

"but it seems since * has been president the southern states have taken it upon themselves to act like they are the only real americans..and that kinda gets in the craw of alot of other americans...it seems as when we were on the march to war..the good people of the south were calling those in the north ..unpatriotic..well that didn't sit well...no not people here on du ..and not southern liberals or progressives..but it was done and it was encouraged by the * cabal...and those who were the "so called uniters"....a broad brush was painted on ny'ers that they were unpatriotic and filthy and all sorts of nasty comments came out of the south and mid west ..at those in ny and the northeast and calif who protested this war..."

I was taking your post in context to the OP which never said anything bad about anyone.

I'm at a bit of a loss here.

:toast: with peace.

but it seems since * has been president the southern states have taken it upon themselves to act like they are the only real americans..and that kinda gets in the craw of alot of other americans...it seems as when we were on the march to war..the good people of the south were calling those in the north ..unpatriotic..well that didn't sit well...no not people here on du ..and not southern liberals or progressives..but it was done and it was encouraged by the * cabal...and those who were the "so called uniters"....a broad brush was painted on ny'ers that they were unpatriotic and filthy and all sorts of nasty comments came out of the south and mid west ..at those in ny and the northeast and calif who protested this war...

[chaska]

21. Personally, it doesn't bother me when non-Southerners bash the South....

I'm originally from SC. I know that their criticisms aren't about me. No biggie.

I do like to point out the tendency of the South to produce genius though. The best flowers grow in the deepest manure, right?

[joemurphy]

24. Terrific writers. Must be something in the water. :-) n/t

[Liberal In Texas]

65. Thank you for the stereotype. We really need stereotypes more and

more.

If you can't find one in the south, find one up in the cold of the north where I find rude, insensitive, jerks. I know, I've lived there.

Hey, OP...why encourage region bashing?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

120. I love that saying!

In the past, it didn't bother me that much either.

But since Katrina, the subtle jabs from both left and right have slowly grated at my nerves until, I guess, there's a few raw ones.

[TahitiNut]

22. Pacific Northwesterners that refuse to vote for a Democratic ticket ...

... without a Pacific Northwesterner on it really try my patience. :eyes:

[southlandshari]

31. Honestly, TahitiNut....

I think the very commonly held idea among people of all political persuasions that Southerners will only vote for a Democratic presidential nominee who is from the South is a myth. Hear me out, I hope I can articulate this with some sort of clarity. I'll give it my best shot, anyway.

It is difficult, of course, for me to prove my theory, without some subjectivity. But as someone very immersed in the politics of the South (local, state and national) AND someone who readily admits the transgressions of our past and the problems of our present in the Deep South -- I just don't feel that the assertion of Southerners blindly voting on regional lines has any real teeth.

Part - NOT ALL - of the reason the Kerry-Edwards ticket did not do well in the South, IMHO, is undeniably the choices made by those running their campaign to virtually ignore the Deep South when it came to visits, advertisements and outreach to potential voters. I am no longer bitter about this - though I admit I was in the weeks just after the election last year - but I can attest to the fact that I got nothing but entreaties via email to focus my energy not at home but on other states. Kerry never once set foot in Alabama during the entire campaign. The message was clear. The hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of potential Democratic voters in Alabama were expendable in the name of savvy strategy. The worst of it came after the election when we who had been ignored were then demonized by those who couldn't give a hoot about our votes before the election, but blamed us for the loss after the fact.

2004 is over, and I know I and a lot of other Alabama Dems are already very focused on 2008. I would love nothing more than to see a candidate emerge who could put the long-held notion that a candidate's hometown matters more to us than his/her credentials AND his/her basic credibility, to rest once and for all. For my money, right now, the possible '08 presidential candidate with the best chances at doing that is Russ Feingold. A lot can change between now and then, but his visits here, and his genuine interest in how Alabamians think and feel has made an initial impact that could be built on later.

Whew. Not even sure that was worth two pennies, but it felt good to share it, nonetheless!

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

38. But I was talking about Pacific Northwesterners.

O8) If I recall correctly, Kucinich campaigned in every southern state. I guess that's why he got so much vigorous support there, huh? :dunce:

[southlandshari]

64. ROFL!

Sure you were!

;)


Hey, wait a minute. Before I get too friendly with you tonight - which one of us is the angel smiley and which one of us is the dunce smiley in your last post?

Hmmmmm.....

[TahitiNut]

87. My emoticons are always me ... or some facsimile.

I'm versatile. :+ It comes (hard fought) with age, I think. :party:

I find it's enough hard work presenting myself without EVER trying to present someone else. I just don't see it in my job description.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

122. Wow! Thanks, SS! Well said.

:toast:

But I did get to shake Howard Dean's hand at Alabama A&M. He was the only Dem candidate to visit North Alabama during the primaries that I know of.

[QC]

32. I voted for Michael Fucking Dukakis,

as well as Mondale and Kerry, none of whom was Southern.

[joemurphy]

33. You poor lonely soul. The last diehard Southern Democrat!

[TahitiNut]

36. Wow! All one of you?

:evilgrin: But I was talking about Pacific Northwesterners!

[QC]

71. I think that voting for such a breathtakingly absurd candidate

should get me some credit. ;-)

[KoKo]

29. I'm a Southerner who spent MUCHO time in the NorthEast..so trash me!

I know where the bodies are buried...I go WAYYYY back in Southern History...

But, my heart lays dead in the Northeast and not in my Southern Family Plot...that's waiting for me...as decreed by my Southern Relatives...many of whom I love...but might not longer respect. :shrug:

[Ksec]

30. Cant we all just get along.

I dont see why you southerners just cant admit that you are inferior and the North is your Daddy. Cmon , lets just get along people

:)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

34. LOL!!!!!

:toast:

[tammywammy]

130. LOL

Thanks for the smile this morning.

:toast:

[devilgrrl]

35. Uh... your list of notable southerners had a glaring omission.

You forgot Chapel Hill, North Carolina's own:
Southern Culture on the Skids


What's the matter with you?

:silly:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

37. What is it about Chapel Hill and literati?1!!1!

It's HUGH!

[Orrin_73]

41. Do you constantly say Yeeeha?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

44. Noooo. It's Yeeeee-Haw!

Damned illierate!

[Orrin_73]

48. Sorry dude

was just kidding, sorry!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

105. LOL... So was I. Damn, I gotta start using the sarcasm thingie more often

:toast:

[DivinBreuvage]

42. Tom, you Southrons are to blame for "Gone With the Wind" and "Deliverance"

Gone With the Wind was written by Margaret Mitchell; Deliverance by James Dickey; both proud Southerners born and bred!

Surely you appreciate that the "Moonlight and Magnolias" fable of the antebellum South depicted in GWTW (which to your credit you lament) was not invented by folks in the North, East or West, or by Hollywood. You white folks down South did that all on your own.

James Dickey even appeared in the film version of Deliverance, as the country sheriff who tells Jon Voigt "Never come back here. Never do anything like this agin."

I don't disagree with you about Eudora Welty, Harper Lee and Clyde Edgerton, but do you not find the rural South in Deliverance too?

The old man turned as though he were being surrounded. His movements were very slow, like those of someone whose energies have been taken by some other thing than old age. It was humiliating to be around him, especially with Lewis' huge pumped-up bicep shoving out its veins in the sun, where it lay casually on the window of the car. Out of the side of my eye I saw the old man's spotted hands trembling like he was deliberately making them do it. There is always something wrong with people in the country, I thought....

In the comparatively few times I had ever been in the rural South I had been struck by the number of missing fingers. Offhand, I had counted around twenty at least. There had also been several people with some form of crippling or twisting illness, and some blind or one-eyed. No adequate medical treatment, maybe. But there was something else. You'd think that farming was a healthy life, with fresh air and fresh food and plenty of exercise, but I never saw a farmer who didn't have something wrong with him, and most of the time obviously wrong; I never saw one who was physically powerful, either....

"I'll tell you what's the matter, you city son of a bitch," Queen said, in that country-murderous tone that always bled me white.

[QC]

43. Interesting story about Deliverance....

Dickey actually did go to a place like the one in the book, but he found that the people there were friendly and helpful, if strange. He knew, however, that that would not make for much of a story. Thus the birth of one of the ugliest, nastiest portrayals of rural people in world literature....

As much as I love Southern literature--enough to be writing a dissertation on it--there's a real problem with most of the canonical works, as well as the pop stuff like GWTW and Mockingbird, which is a truly nasty class agenda that lays all of the South's social problems at the feet of the rural poor. Southern writers created that myth and the rest of America has eagerly picked it up, including quite a few people who claim to be enlightened progressives.

[DivinBreuvage]

88. I guess I shouldn't be surprised to learn that he made stuff up

for a better story, and I thank you for sharing that; I hadn't heard it before. And, although I'd never really considered what you say about Southern class prejudice working itself out in literature, it certainly rings true to me now that you bring it to my attention. It is something I will remember.

Would you consider Richard Wright, from Roxie, Mississippi, a canonical writer? I wonder how you view the accuracy of his portrayal of the rural poor in passages like the following from Uncle Tom's Children: Big Boy Leaves Home:

The stench of tar permeated the hillside. The sky was black and the wind was blowing hard.

"HURRY UP N BURN THE NIGGER FO IT RAINS!"

Big Boy saw the mob fall back, leaving a small knot of men about the fire. Then, for the first time, he had a full glimpse of Bobo. A black body flashed in the light. Bobo was struggling, twisting; they were binding his arms and legs.

When he saw them tilt the barrel he stiffened. A scream quivered. He knew the tar was on Bobo. The mob fell back. He saw the tar-drenched body glistening and turning.... then he saw a writhing white mass cradled in yellow flame, and heard screams, one on top of the other, each shriller and shorter than the last.

I'm not sure that historical evidence allows us to conclude that the stereotype of there being something sick, evil and wrong in the South is necessarily a myth. True, in some way or other any group of people has partaken of the same sins, and the South has produced its share of the good and noble just as any other region has.

But, you know as well as I do that the South has always prided itself on its distinctive (and, as they used to say in the old days, superior) culture, and a result of that is that you folks down there really have inherited a peculiar legacy bequeathed to you by your forebears whether you like it or not. Is it fair? No. Are you doing more to amend that part of your history than other sections of the country? Probably. But the legacy remains notwithstanding.

Let me put it this way: imagine you have four hoodlums on a street. Three of them like to hang out together and swindle old ladies. The fourth remains superciliously aloof, occasionally muttering comments to the others about how he's "not one of your mudsill type", and mugs schoolkids not because he dislikes them worse than the others but because he's closest to the school. Who are the other three crooks going to point fingers at?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

46. I mentioned the movies, not the novels...

Big difference, IMHO.

Larry Brown from Oxford MS is/was another great Southern literary voice that gives insight into the rural, less affluent South.

[QC]

50. Brown is one of the greats.

I used to know him back when I lived in Oxford. Saw him around town a lot, and he was always the most friendly, unpretentious man you could ever hope to meet. One semester he taught a class in the room next to mine and we used to chat in the hall. It hurt me deeply to hear last November that he had died.

Other good ones for insight into rural life are Dorothy Allison and Harry Crews.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

53. I love Harry Crews!

What a great black sense of humor!

I haven't read Dorothy Allison, would you recommend one of her books to me?


I have first eds of both Joe and Dirty Work that I had hoped to one day have him sign.

He died too soon.

[QC]

54. Bastard out of Carolina is her best known.

There's also a collection of short stories called Trash that is essential reading. Kinda hard to find--published by an obscure lesbian publishing outfit called Firebrand Press.

Two or Three Things I Know for Sure is excellent.

And yes, Brown passed long before he should have. Imagine what he could have done with just a little more time.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

55. Happened to a freind of mine, Chap Reaver from Marietta, GA

wrote two books, Mote and A Little Bit Dead, won an Edgar and fell over dead. Speilberg's people had contacted him on Mote... He really could have shared a lot more if time had been on his side.

[QC]

56. And yet the Cheneys of the world live on and on and on

and on while others die in consequence.

Enough to make you wonder.

[Liberal In Texas]

61. Chaney is from Wyoming. n/t

[QC]

62. And the Bushes are pure Northeastern Establishment, New England aristos,

complete with Andover, Yale, and Hahvud educations, S&B, "summering" in Maine, genteel alcoholism, and all the rest, but don't tell anyone around here that--heads will explode!

[Liberal In Texas]

66. No shit. GWB is an example of fetal alcohol syndrome. Wow. n/t

[QC]

68. Yeah, Babs looks like she's downed many a martini in her day,

while sitting around the club fuming about Poppy and that Fitzgerald tramp.

[Liberal In Texas]

73. I heard a someone on the radio.. maybe AAR...

that said that he was sitting with a bunch of docs that specialize in FAS, watching a speech the pres was giving. And to a man, they said that * has all the symptoms of FAS.

True? Or at least provable? No.

But it looks like it to me.

[QC]

75. There's definitely something wrong with him.

It's just not natural for anyone to be that fucked up.

[Liberal In Texas]

84. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is a pretty good explaination.

Fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS) is a condition characterized by abnormal facial features, growth retardation, and central nervous system problems. It can occur if a woman drinks alcohol during pregnancy. Children with FAS may have physical disabilities and problems with learning, memory, attention, problem solving, and social/behavioral problems.

Socially, they tend to be very outgoing and socially engaging, yet they are frequently seen by others as intrusive, overly talkative, and generally unaware of social cues and conventions. Poor social judgment and poor socialization skills are common: many patients are hungry for attention, even negative. Due to their social immaturity, they have difficulty establishing friendships, especially with children of the same age. The potential for both social isolation and exploitation of individuals with FAS in very evident. Hyperactivity is frequently cited as a problem for young children who characteristically have short attention spans. Many also have memory problems, thus creating further setbacks to adaptive functioning and academic achievement later on.

lack of imagination or curiosity

learningdifficulties, including poor memory, inability to understand concepts such as time and money, poor language comprehension, poor problem-solving skills

behavioral problems, including hyperactivity, inability to concentrate, social withdrawal, stubbornness, impulsiveness, and anxiety


Just saying. You can find all this by googling Fetal Alchol Syndrome.

[ptolle]

123. and one more please

As long as we're discussing the depth and breadth of an admirable literary tradition out of the south, may I please ask that we include one of my favorites- Flannery O'Connor?

[QC]

125. She's my favorite! n/t

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

129. I need my ass kicked for forgetting Flannery... A Good Man is Hard to

Find.

One of the best American short stories of the Twentieth Century!

[ultraist]

150. And another: Zora Neale Hurston

"I have been in sorrow's kitchen and licked out all the pots. Then I have stood on the peaky mountain wrapped in rainbows, with a harp and a sword in my hands." - ZNH

Hurston, who has undergone a revival in the last twenty-five years, celebrated the courage and the struggle of African Americans in the rural South in the early years of the past century. A contributor to the Harlem Renaissance, Hurston's chief interest was in folklore which she collected and published under various titles.

[DivinBreuvage]

69. Dickey also wrote the screenplay for Deliverance, the movie

so it would appear that you're still stuck with a Southerner for that one. And having both seen the film and read the book, I don't see as big a difference between the two as you profess to. In fact Deliverance the movie seems to me to be quite faithful to the book.

I can't speak about GWTW, as I haven't read the book, although again I suspect that there really isn't all that big a difference between the two. Certainly the "happy slave" and "moonlight and magnolias" iconography was well established by Southern mythmakers long before moving pictures were invented; in fact Southerners were churning that stuff out even before the Yankeeman come.

Please understand that I'm not arguing against your very valid point that the South has produced much that is good and noble, and that other sections of the country have produced plenty of garbage. I live in the state that re-elected Bob Taft, for heaven's sake. But you can't blame Deliverance and GWTW on Hollywood because your own people did that. As to whether they did it fairly or not, you'll have to hash that out with them in Limbo, hopefully many many years hence.

[QC]

74. "your own people did that"

Please see post #43. Class has a lot to do with Southern image-making--I'm interested in your response.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

116. I'll have to concede to your points... They are valid.

I guess I should have picked my samples a bit more carefully.

:toast:

[Charlie Brown]

45. Also George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison

William Faulkner, Langston Hughes, Harper Lee, William S. Burroughs, Margaret Mitchell, Randall Jarrell, Bob Kaufman and a billion other great writers.

I've never been ashamed of being from the South.

[QC]

47. Let's not forget John Crowe Ransom!

Blue Girls

Twirling your blue skirts, travelling the sward
Under the towers of your seminary,
Go listen to your teachers old and contrary
Without believing a word.

Tie the white fillets then about your hair
And think no more of what will come to pass
Than bluebirds that go walking on the grass
And chattering on the air.

Practise your beauty, blue girls, before it fail;
And I will cry with my loud lips and publish
Beauty which all our powers shall never establish,
It is so frail.

For I could tell you a story which is true;
I know a lady with a terrible tongue,
Blear eyes fallen from blue,
All her perfections tarnished—yet it is not long
Since she was lovelier than any of you.

[TayTay]

49. I like this and will steal the logic

You said: I can bash Southerners, but you can't. Why? It's a southern thing. You wouldn't understand.

I like it and will adapt it to my state: I can bash Mass liberals, but you can't. Why? It's a Mass thing. You wouldn't understand.

[QC]

51. Does anyone around here bash Mass. liberals?

I don't think I ever have. I haven't even known more than one or two.

OTOH, I hear that people in Vermont and New Hampshire are rather fond of the term "Massholes." ;-)

[WildEyedLiberal]

60. Hahaha

TayTay calls HERSELF a Masshole more often than not. Perhaps in relating to the "I can make fun of Mass but you can't" idear.

HAHAHHA I SAID IDEAR...... wait...

:P Don't mind me, I feel silly.

[bee]

110. lol. ahhh massholes. ;-)

maybe we'd stop if they'd learn how to drive. :sarcasm:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

52. LOL... works for me, but I can't imagine my ever wanting to diss

the people of Massachusetts. Too many great people from up that way.

:toast:

[buddysmellgood]

63. and yet you think you can bash the North? Why do stereotypes exist?

[Liberal In Texas]

70. Because there are some people that like to think that they are superior

to others.

It is what happened in Nazi Germany. We are better than the the "lesser" of our people. They looked the other way when the Nazis took their neighbors away. Because they were good Germans.

This current government wants us to be "Good Germans" too. To look the other way.

They like the regional bashing. It fits into the whole plan. The nation is quite divided, and they want it divided more. Don't fall into the trap.

-L

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

124. Ummmm... Where was there any "North Bashing?"

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

72. Most of them. What, were you trying to make some kind of point? n/t

[raysr]

76. Which ones?

I don't know.

[DemBones DemBones]

80. That shows the deficiency of your Northern education.

:evilgrin:

If I tell you the answers, you'll forget. If you Google them, you'll have a better chance of remembering what you learn.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

81. OK...

Of the writers, all of them except for Capote and Williams, who ended up in New York and lots of second homes all over the place but wrote about the South until they died. That is particularly true of Williams.

Most intelligent Southerners have that sort of relationship with the place. We're well aware of its shortcomings as well as the hypocrisy of most of its critics.

[johnaries]

78. Well said, from a Tennessee Volunteer!

And in case anyone doesn't know where TN got the nickname "The Volunteer State", it's because Tennesseans are famous for volunteering to step up and help whenever help is needed.

For example, Al Gore - flying LA evacuees to TN hospitals.

Tennesseans can be easily misled sometimes because we have a tendency to trust people, but if someone needs help - Tennesseans will be there!

[DemBones DemBones]

79. Damn straight! nt

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lorien]

85. Blanket statements don't work in any situation

"Southerners are racist"

"Northerners are elitist"

"Democrats are wimps without ideas"

"Christians are uneducated and vote republican"

"Baby boomers are selfish"

"the middle class think they're billionaires"

"Poor people are noble and hardworking"

"the wealthy are all corrupt republicans"

"women are psycho"

"Men are self absorbed"

etc., etc. etc.

Painting entire groups with one broad brush is false, bigoted, and demeaning. Adding "some", "many", "often" "sometimes" and other qualifiers can open up a discussion for a debate instead of a flame war. As someone living in the South, I can safely say that racism, for instance, generally is far more out in the open here than it appears to be in most areas of the North.That's far different than simply stating that Southerners are racist (some are, some aren't).

[really annoyed]

95. Best post I've seen all night....

I wish everybody would read it.

:thumbsup:

[ornotna]

90. Add this one to your list

Truly a great southerner. Stetson Kennedy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stetson_Kennedy

http://www.stetsonkennedy.com/

[devilgrrl]

92. The late great Nina Simone was a southerner

Born in Tryon, North Carolina.

I'm not trying harsh your mellow but this powerful song by this brilliant artist must be posted.

MISSISSIPPI GODDAMN

The name of this tune is Mississippi Goddam
And I mean every word of it

Alabama's got me so upset
Tennessee made me lose my rest
And everybody knows about Mississippi Goddam

Alabama's got me so upset
Tennessee made me lose my rest
And everybody knows about Mississippi Goddam

Can't you see it can't you feel it
It's all in the air
I can't stand the pressure much longer
Somebody say a prayer

Alabama's got me so upset
Tennessee made me lose my rest
And everybody knows about Mississippi Goddam

This is a show tune
But the show hasn't been written for it yet

Hound dogs on my trail
Schoolchildren sitting in jail
Black cat crossed my path
I think every day's gonna be my last
Lord have mercy on this land of mine
We're all gonna get it in due time

I don't belong here I don't belong there
I've even stopped believing in prayer
Don't tell me I tell you
Me and my people just about do
I've been there so I know
Keep on saying go slow

But that's just the trouble too slow
Washing the windows too slow
Picking the cotton too slow
You're just plain rotten too slow
Too damn lazy too slow
Thinking's crazy too slow

Where am I going
What am I doing
I don't know I don't know
Just try to do your very best
Stand up be counted with all the rest
Cos everybody knows about Mississippi Goddam

I bet you thought
I was kidding didn't you

Picket lines school boycots
They try to say it's a communist plot
All I want is equality
For my sister my brother my people and me

Yes you lied to me all these years
You told me to wash and clean my ears
And talk real fine just like a lady
And you'd stop calling me Sister Sady

Oh but this whole country is full of lies
You're all gonna die and die like flies
I don't trust you anymore
You keep on saying go slow go slow

But that's just the trouble too slow
Desegregation too slow
Mass participation too slow
Unification too slow
Do things gradually too slow
Will bring more tragedy too slow

Why don't you see it why don't you feel it
I don't know I don't know
You don't have to live next to me
Just give me my equality

And everybody knows about Mississippi
Everybody knows about Alabama
Everybody knows about Mississippi Goddam
That's it

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

94. Alerted.

As befits such a purely pointless, hateful, divisive post.

[Freedomfried]

100. Good for you

[jzodda]

96. Hmmm me thinks those people would not rate high

If I took a "real" poll of what the southerners think. I think the people you mentioned would not even make the top 10. I think these are the ones who would rate highest in the south.

1. Robert E. Lee
2. Jefferson Davis
3. Stonewall Jackson

get the general idea of who I am looking at? I think the majority of white southerners put those guys at the top. I do not even think a majority of folks down there even realize they lost

[Liberal In Texas]

99. That was what, 1800's? You're the one who still wants to fight the

Civil War.

Get real and look at that map posted above.

Mods. This is flame bate.

[jzodda]

101. The 1800s were not that long ago

and you get real. You need the mods to come and save you from the truth? I have driven all through the south, have studied its history, been to Gettysburg many times where southern pride is on full display, have kept up with all the battles to remove the battleflags from the various statehouses.


You believe what you want, but if you do not think a significant % of the people in the old south do not admire those figures I mentioned then you are ignorant. They may not like Davis as much as the other 2, but the civil war lead to Jim Crow, and that lead to segregation and that lead to the the southern dems turning republican since the 60s. Its all related, and you maybe should go study the history a bit more.

[Liberal In Texas]

102. You mister self-historian might want to study the English language

Lead is one thing. Led is another.

Now with that aside, all you are doing with this post is to instill hatred. It's just like the repukes do. Instill divisiveness.

If that's what you want to promote, I have no use for you.

Go away.

[jzodda]

103. I do not get why you Southerners

get all hot and bothered when we up North say anything about what goes on down there. I have heard and read so many things you all have said about us in NY over the years, and what? We are not allowed to comment on you?

Your States are solidly red these days. Those same people used to be the southern dems, but they all switched and we all know why. They control just about the entire old south. I wonder why?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

104. Sir, you have little to no understanding of the South or Southerners.

Your post is a fiction.

Turn off the television and pick up a book.

[QC]

113. But...but...but...he's *driven* through the South!

How can you question the deep knowledge of someone who has driven through the place?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

114. LOL!!! Yeah, it's one big Dukes of Hazzard movie down here...

[lynne]

127. I think he may have already picked up too many books -

- but they must have all been about the Civil War. Sounds like he's big into Civil War history. If you want to know about the South in 2005, you need to spend a good bit of time there in the NOW - not in the past.

[lwin]

98. You get big consideration for having John Edwards...

:loveya:

[etherealtruth]

115. Oh, yeah!

:toast:

[mmonk]

106. Let them bash,

I can take it.

[elehhhhna]

109. FYI Y'all: Texas is WAYYYY more Western than Southern

try to remember that...

We were our own country once, ya know!

[Ron Green]

128. That depends on what part of Texas you're talking about.

The area east of about Wills Point in the north or Navasota in the south becomes much more like the South. Speech patterns, food, racial attitudes -- it's quite distinct.

[elehhhhna]

138. Well I do believe you are right about Navasota (and Jasper, too)

and Crawford...but small town ANYWHERE is pretty much stoopid-land, come to think of it.

[FreedomAngel82]

117. From a fellow southerner

Hear, hear!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

148. In that case,

thank You, thank You!

[McCamy Taylor]

131. I'm a southerner and I give non-southerners permission to south bash!

[Mr_Spock]

134. I'll reference you in my next post

bashing Southerners - lol :D

[lateo]

132. I grew up in the south.

Born and raised there...and YES...racism is alive and well in the south.

I have had this conversation plenty of times here with some DU racism deniers. It just gets old after a while.

[QC]

133. What a nice straw man you have there!

And just in time for Halloween, too!

[lateo]

136. There is no strawman.

Are you saying racism doesn't exist in the south?

[QC]

137. No. I'm saying that no one here has made that claim.

That is what makes your argument a straw man.

[lateo]

140. Not in this thread...

But there have been other threads here were some other southerners said they grew up with out seeing any racism. I told them I didn't believe them because of my experience growing up in Mississippi.

The racism I saw was right out there in the open.

[Charlie Brown]

142. Are you saying there is no racism in the North or on the West Coast?

The axe swings both ways. I believe the "Minutemen" are textbook examples of racists in California and New Mexico.

[Mr_Spock]

145. Lots of bigots up here in the Northeast for sure.

Racism is everywhere - I have been witness to it more than I care to remember. I was, however, somewhat shocked at how the managers at a big telecom company I worked for in Shreveport LA turned the conversation so expertly into one about their utter contempt for blacks. I hardly knew these folks but the conversation was thick with racial overtones and more that enough outright bigotry that even I was shocked. There is lots of bigotry in Boston but it's not shared as freely - people feel a bit more pressure to keep the rhetoric inside their houses. These white managers were spewing this crap as soon as we got off company property and were at a fancy restaurant - made me uncomfortable as they made horrid remarks about the mostly black waitstaff helpers and the folks at the factory they work at. Texas was even worse as far as hatred of the "Yankees" in the Northeast - we were accosted the minute we got off the plane in Dallas by our own employee - "we're all conservative down here" and many derogatory comments about the Northeast. I haven't yet had a good experience in either Dallas of Shreveport and I've never once stated an opinion of my own - in fact I made it a point to make them feel comfortable to talk about whatever they wanted to - oh, and was it ugly! It wasn't just the word though - it was the lack of any holding back - as if they were daring someone/anyone to challenge them. The average person you meet in passing is extremely friendly though - unlike all the introverts in the NE. It was behind closed doors where things got interesting...

[lateo]

153. Not at all.

But what I am saying is that, in the south, they wear their racism out in the open. And, this is not so say they don't do this other places but I want to correct these southern racism deniers.

[norml]

135. All those who can should move to swing states from solidly red states.

That includes me, living in the solidly (though there are worse) red state of Nebraska.

It's tough when the best case you can make for your region is that there are exceptions.

Of course there are exceptions, but what's the majority like?

Thanks for being an exception.

[norml]

139. For me moving to Iowa would be a step up, while moving to Kansas would be

a step down.



Cartoon Rendering of Typical Southerner

[peacefulpat]

149. Give every Southerner one of these

A good friend of mine has designed a new car magnet in response to those "Support our Troops" yellow magnets you see everywhere. You have to see it to fully appreciate it. It's at www.peacepositive.net. Mike's idea was to bring a symbol of peace to the ribbon message. The results are pretty powerful. The other cool thing is that he is donating 20% of the proceeds to charities that support peace. This is something that both sides of the Mason Dixon can get behind!

[melody]

151. Well said. I always find the anti-southern thing funny

...When you consider that some of the biggest jerk-off Neocons are northerners and some of the most well-known liberals are southerners.

[Oerdin]

154. What's wrong with Gone with the Wind?

Eh?

[GOPNotForMe]

155. I love Gone With the Wind.

It doesn't portray the South as incestuous psychos a la Deliverance, but it does create some of the more unique and vivid characters in fiction set against the backdrop of a relatively accurate context. You can't just pretend that the Civil War didn't happen or that the South was the last stronghold for slavery, but you CAN still create some amazing stories from that era.

Ergh, topics like this bother me so much. At least re to GWTW. Liking GWTW doesn't make you racist, it doesn't make you a moron, it doesn't mean you want to go back to the "good ol' days" of slavery.

[KnowerOfLogic]

156. OMG. As a former southerner, let me say, it's OK for *everyone* to bash

the south. For the most part it deserves it. The clannishness of the south is one of it's biggest problems, and it is also one of the biggest impediments to change.