"Jiggle, Jiggle...Bump and Grind......What about Our Daughters?

[KoKo]

BOB ABERNETHY, anchor: Now, a special report on the sexual pressures on preteenage girls. Parents, social critics, and many young girls themselves deplore it, but sex sells, so advertisers and entertainers use it to attract audiences. They use it without the regulation or social pressures that once were restraining forces. And they use it without censorship, which hardly anyone favors. Mary Alice Williams reports on the media and the children who are its targets.

MARY ALICE WILLIAMS: They're sweet. The sexually debasing lyrics they're mimicking aren't. Ever since Elvis shimmied his pelvis, parents have worried about protecting their teens from the obscene. This is different. These aren't 17-year-olds. They're 11. And these self-confident sixth graders and even their younger siblings are increasingly exposed to torrents of overtly sexual messages by people selling things to preteens.

ALICE (Teenage Girl): It makes me feel like an object and feel really, really weird. And it is not like girls should be like that.

WILLIAMS: The culture tells them something different. They listen to music. Britney Spears made it big wearing a Catholic schoolgirl uniform. Look at her now. Most of BILLBOARD's top 20 CDs are slapped with "Parental Guidance" stickers. They do homework on the Internet where there are lots of porn sites. They watch TV. The teen hit DAWSON'S CREEK on the WB alludes to oral sex and masturbation. In prime time, the Kaiser Family Foundation has catalogued an average of five sexual references per hour.

KERRY (Teenage Girl): This sexual stuff you don't just see on TV. You see it day to day. It happens in middle school. It will happen in high school. You just see it around.

WILLIAMS: Professor Jean Bethke Elshtain is an ethicist with University of Chicago Divinity School.

Dr. JEAN BETHKE ELSHTAIN (University of Chicago Divinity School): There's certainly a relationship between the culture and the increase of sex because of the many cultural messages that bombard young people daily.

WILLIAMS: According to studies, more girls than ever before are sexually active before their 15th birthday. One in 12 children has lost his or her virginity by the eighth grade. Almost a fourth of ninth graders have slept with four or more partners.

Dr. Michael Rich, a pediatrician who treats adolescents only, talks with his teenage patients daily about sexual issues. He says he is seeing more sexually transmitted diseases in younger and younger children and that expectations of sex have changed drastically.

Dr. MICHAEL RICH: What we are seeing now that is different from previous years, I think, is that sex is expected. Sex is part of the normal interaction, day-to-day interaction between boys and girls.

JERRY DELLA FEMINA (Advertising Executive): This is about as sexy as we get.

WILLIAMS: Advertising agent Jerry Della Femina doesn't use sex to sell his clients' products. But he knows why people do.

Mr. DELLA FEMINA: It's easier to be lewd than to be creative, and people try to get attention, and the one thing that gets attention is sex. Sex sells. People turn around. They look at it.

WILLIAMS: Like many in the industry, he thinks it is up to the parents to monitor what their children see and hear.

Mr. DELLA FEMINA: I believe that it is the parents' job to provide them with a sense of values so that if they do see something that is off, they are not affected by it.

WILLIAMS: Diane Levin, with the Coalition to Stop Commercial Exploitation of Children, studies the effect of culture on kids' behavior.

DIANE LEVIN (Coalition to Stop Commercial Exploitation of Children): I have interviewed thousands of parents, and they agree it is their job and they try very hard to do it, but they can't keep it out of their children's lives. I resent that I have to struggle with this issue. I think that in the best of all possible worlds we would have a society that is trying to create an environment that helps parents in their job instead of making it harder.

Dr. ELSHTAIN: At one point in time in this culture, the assumption was that families and churches and schools, and even the wider culture, reinforced one another in helping to sustain children through a period of growing up. And I think that coherence has broken down.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c2coff=1&q=Sex+Sells+%2B+Della+femina&spell=1
--------------------------------------------------------------------


John Arbuthnot Fisher Quotes
Our society's values are being corrupted by advertising's insistence on the equation: Youth equals popularity, popularity equals success, success equals happiness.
John Arbuthnot Fisher

The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility.
John Arbuthnot Fisher

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/johnarbuth103878.html

[mzteris]

1. AND our sons

I don't want my sons sexually active before their time any more than I wanted my daughter to.

[Atman]

4. The whole thing is a crock of shit by uptight parents who can't get laid

Sorry...this argument has been around forever. Same shit, different year. The big difference is that parents today won't discipline or talk to their kids. They want to be friends, instead of setting bounderies. Now the bounderies they want to set mean ADULTS can't have any fun either. They want EVERYBODY to be chaste, thinking that somehow this will stop Mother Nature from releasing hormones into their kids' systems when they reach puberty.

Fuck this noise. We hear it every time republicans get in office.

PS: First time I got laid was on my 15th birthday, by a fifteen year old girl. In a lilly-white, upper middle class town. That was 32 years ago.

[Splatter Phoenix]

6. Yeah, but that thing about the 9th graders is gross.

I mean...ew. Four or more partners?

nasty.

[Atman]

8. Bullshit. 9th graders lie.

We keep telling them this bullshit that "everybody else is," and they don't want to feel left out.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

46. Like hell, we do! nt

[FreedomAngel82]

33. Where were the parents??

Where it concerns "family moral values" there's a key word there: family. My mother and father are the one's who are supposed to monitor what I watch and what music I buy etc. When I was younger MTV was a big no-no. I didn't get a TV in my room until we moved into our current house cause I was of an age to know right/wrong and to listen to my parents. I doubt if I was twelve my Mom would've bought me a Britney Spears cd. That's why there are the parental guidance stickers and raitings on games and movie's. Parent your own kid(s). And where it concerns sex and daiting if the teen isn't mature enough to date then they shouldn't be allowed to date. And yes set boundaries with your kid(s) and be a parent.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

I highly doubt that

25% of my peers have been laid.

Sorry, but it's just so ridiculous. Take it from a 9th grader...

[OneGrassRoot]

81. Hi WritingIsMyReligion...... *S*

I just want to clarify: you feel the statistics cited here are high? I hope so....I just want to make sure you don't mean that you feel 25% is low.

Do you attend a public school?

I've been admiring your posts these last few days....you inspire me and represent today's youth brilliantly. I have a 12-year-old and hope she becomes involved soon as you have.

Kudos to you!!!! :applause: :pals:

[mzteris]

21. excuse me for raining on your parade

If you want your 15 year olds to have sex - have at it.

I don't "preach abstinence" - but I told my daughter - and am now telling my older son -

I hope you're wise enough to wait, but if you're not, you must be smart enough to protect yourself.

I think 15 is too young and middle schoolers???????

The fact is that children much younger than 15 are having sex - or sex-related acts - regularly.

Middle school is quite rampant with active sex. When I was in jr high (late 60's early 70's) - there was maybe two or three couples who were "doing it" - when my daughter was in middle school (early 90's) there were quite a few. My son - were he in PS would be middle school now - and I know quite a few parents of ms'ers - and believe me - there is a LOT of sex going on there now.

It is getting younger. Girls are dressing and acting like little tramps and boys think they're supposed to get laid before they start to shave even. I think it's awful and it's bad - emotionally and physically - for CHILDREN!! to be having sex.

And when you have kids - you'll think so, too. As much as you like to brag NOW about your having sex at 15 - you bet your bippie that you won't be bragging when YOUR DAUGHTER hits puberty.

[knitter4democracy]

25. You're right--it's really bad.

When I was teaching a few years back, too many of my students told of becoming sexually active at 12 and 13. If you took mutual masturbation into account, it was often younger. Look into your local school district's numbers on pregnancies in the ten and eleven year olds, and you'll be shocked. Yes, those are rape, but some are from kids messing around because they think they're supposed to.

It's getting so that kids think that, in order to have a relationship with anyone of the opposite gender, they need to involve sex. They can't just be friends. That's the sad thing.

[FreedomAngel82]

35. I don't think anybody is doubting that

The parents should be there though and parent their kid(s). If you think fifteen is too young to date tell the kid that and no dating. And yes talk to your kids about sex too and this is another reason why I'm in strong favor of teaching sexual education by a professional who knows the subject like I know my Bible. Abstience isn't enough and this proves it. Teens will still have sex because there are teens out there who don't want to make any such pledge. Sexual education is more important now then anything. My parents didn't talk to me about sex. I learned about it in health class.

[knitter4democracy]

23. Have you seen clothes for young girls lately?

I had to stop shopping for clothes for my five year old daughter at most stores because they're so bad. Tight tees with suggestive sayings across the chest, leather-like lace-ups for the sides of jeans and the crotch, short-short shorts that barely cover their underwear, and more--and these are all in the 4-6X range!

It's one thing for teens to chose to dress suggestively, it's another for a mom's only options for her young daughter to be clothing that either makes her look like a skank or, perhaps worse, encourages the consumerist model. Many things have prints of lipstick, make-up, and kisses with "Princess" in glitter on it, and this is for girls too young for all of that.

It's not okay when they target pre-pubescent kids.

[GreenArrow]

28. it's all about money

and no, it isn't okay. It's pure exploitiation.

The "Tween Market"

One of the most important recent developments in advertising to kids has been the defining of a "tween" market (ages 8 to 12). No longer little children, and not yet teens, tweens are starting to develop their sense of identity and are anxious to cultivate a sophisticated self-image. And marketers are discovering there's lots of money to be made by treating tweens like teenagers.

The marketing industry is forcing tweens to grow up quickly. Industry research reveals that children 11 and older don't consider themselves children anymore. The Toy Manufacturers of America have changed their target market from birth to 14, to birth to ten years of age.

A 2000 report from the Federal Trade Commission in the U.S. revealed how Hollywood routinely recruits tweens (some as young as nine) to evaluate its story concepts, commercials, theatrical trailers and rough cuts for R-rated movies.

By treating pre-adolescents as independent, mature consumers, marketers have been very successful in removing the gatekeepers (parents) from the picture—leaving tweens vulnerable to potentially unhealthy messages about body image, sexuality, relationships and violence.

Marketing "cool" to teens

Corporations capitalize on the age-old insecurities and self-doubts of teens by making them believe that to be truly cool, you need their product.

http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/parents/marketing/issues_teens_marketing.cfm

[knitter4democracy]

31. And now they're marketing to even younger ones.

They start their stuff at the age of eight, but the kindergartners look up to those kids and want to be cool like them, too. The marketers know this and have everything in other forms for them, too. I get so sick of it. I really monitor what my kids watch, and many toys aren't allowed anywhere near our house, but it gets hard when family's involved.

My SILs are teenagers, and my daughter picks up way too much from them. They dress very provactively for my taste and have for a few years. My daughter wants to be like them and often pulls out skimpy pink glittery things when we're at the store. Thank goodness for a few stores I can still shop at and a school uniform for the rest of the time.

[GreenArrow]

34. exactly. It funnels downward

How am I as a parent supposed to fight against it? I can prevent my daughter from having things --clothing, "Bratz" dolls, etc. -- I don't approve of, but when all her friends have them, or the cool kids at school have them, and the media glorifies them, it kind of works to negate any parental authority I have. I don't think that is unintended either. My daughter is still too young to be affected now, but I dread having to go through this later.

[FreedomAngel82]

41. I think it also depends

on who the kids hang out with too and how much of an influence they have and then their parents raise them. That's why who you pick as your friends is also important.

[FreedomAngel82]

40. Yes

And there's also a lot with being a certain weight too. All of the young girls' clothes with the cool styles are made for those girls who are really skinny. Maybe if they didn't do that and focus so much on image and showing off your body.

[Atman]

29. Whoops! This is the wrong place!

So I'm re-placing it at the end of the thread...

[FreedomAngel82]

37. I agree

Pre-teens dress really bad lately thanks to the pop-culture world we live in now such as with Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson etc. They may claim to be virgins (well no longer of course) but didn't dress like it as they got older. My younger cousin's are now pre-teens and they don't dress bad at all. They dress very classy and conservative whenever I see them and in cute outfits and nothing slutty. So it also depends on your parents too I think.

[Poppyseedman]

2. I find that the vast majority of girls who are sexually active at an

early age simply need a father who listens to them and most importantly presents a standard at home that values women (the way they treat their wife is the primary standard) as unique in their own special ways and not as sex objects but to respect themselves first before they can expect other people to respect them.

My wife and I set the standard for the clothes they wore and their make up and jewelry. Believe me, they didn't look or dress like street walkers or junior hookers wanna be's. We had several major blow ups on those subjects, but my wife and I agreed before hand on what was acceptable and what crossed the line. We stuck to our guns no matter how much whining, moaning, bitching and crying went on. There was plenty to go around

In the end they knew we were right for we were protecting them from influences they were unable to understand or handle in the long run

Speaking from experience of raising two girls into women who respect themselves and their bodies.

[KoKo]

3. What if they don't have this:

"I find that the vast majority of girls who are sexually active at an"
Posted by Poppyseedman

early age simply need a father who listens to them and most importantly presents a standard at home that values women (the way they treat their wife is the primary standard) as unique in their own special ways and not as sex objects but to respect themselves first before they can expect other people to respect them.

[Poppyseedman]

5. Mom can do the same thing, more difficult but it can be done

This may be a little old fashioned, but how about single or divorced mom not letting the boyfriend sleep over or dressing up like she is man hunting every bar in town.

How many live in boyfriends wind up molesting single moms daughters???

one is too many, but it seems like a national pastime lately

Edit: spelling

[Atman]

7. How old are you?

Hm?

[KoKo]

10. What about "Victoria's Secret? and "Esquire?"

We already know that VS CEO is a Bush BOT...so who profits off our daughters...and our "Sons who Knock up others daughters?"

Abortion? Birth Control? Where does it come down to that our Kids are being MANIPULATED by the same Whore Media who has "easy access" to what the M$M Whores are trying to take away from the rest of us.

:eyes: It seems very hypocritical to ME...but then...if the "Flow of America" seems to think Bush is correct about this...then who am I to complain? :shrug:

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poppyseedman]

11. How old am I ???

old enought to raise 4 grown children and two left at home. I have been there and done that.

besides that, what does my age have to do with dog squat???

Before I got married and had kids I was as wild as they come, a lot more than most people, even by todays standards.

[Atman]

14. It wasn't an accusation, it was a question.

Why so defensive?

[Poppyseedman]

18. I assumed , my error

that my age was a criteria for being irrelevant in discussion about teen age sexuality

[xchrom]

9. my grandmother raised 11 kids alone.

not that it wasn't hard -- it was for everyone.

my mom was divorced at an early age -- married my dad when she was 30 and now they've been married almost 70 years.

every one in that family turned ok -- some divorces some not -- every one reasonably well balanced.


btw -- grandpa left -- ran out.

[Poppyseedman]

17. you are making my point

married my dad when she was 30

Married being the operative word here

[tjdee]

80. How about men not sleeping over or chasing skirts?

I'm a single mother, and that post struck me as weird, though I am sure you are not saying all single and/or divorced mothers let their boyfriends sleep over and dress "like she is man hunting every bar in town".

But you know, it would be nice if the burden wasn't always on the women. Everyone should watch out for each other.

[pitohui]

59. oh come on how would you know?

i would certainly never get into a discussion of sex w. my dad, that is just creepy

nor would my friends

yes, i had sex early, many girls do, as far as my dad is concerned, and most other dads were concerned, i didn't have sex until i was like 20 and neither did the rest of us

if you think a girl has to dress like a hooker to desire or to have sex, you need a refresher course on the birds and the bees, sorry

you have no idea whether or not yr girls had sex at early age, kind smart girls protect their fathers from such information, they don't throw it in his face

but the truth is girls understand and handle "influences" just fine unless there is another issue, such as substance abuse or date rape

even a 14 yr old girl has a clitoris, and it WORKS

[phylny]

65. How many 14-year-old girls do you think are having orgasms with

the people they have sex with?

Not an accusation, but a question to ponder. I don't think all that many of them are.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. The more things change

the more they stay the same. Young women of all cultures and generations have been objects of sexual desire. The sad ones buy into it and believe the attention they get is love or at the least admiration.

And there are always and will always be adults who get off on thinking about the whole thing.

Have you ever heard of the book Rainbow Party? Look it up in Amazon. I have heard that it's a big seller and NOT just with pubescent girls. I believe it is just another form of exploitation.

[GreenArrow]

15. crass comercialism

Sensationalistic exploitation. Filthy lucre. The creation of false needs. Mind and social control. Marketing pigs.

[KoKo]

19. I do belive it's "Crass Commercialism" targeted agains Liberal Parents

who try to be very "Politically Correct" but might end up supporting or encourageing stuff they never intended to. :shrug:

And, the "stuff they never intended to" ends up in the Repugs Back Pockets because we on the Left can't see ourselves as fighting against Porn, Soft Porn.. But the Right Wing LOVES PORN and in fact more of them GO DOWN over their sexual piccadillo's than those of us on the LEFT WING!

So...what are we to think of this? The Repugs vote against anything that has "sexual overtones of joy!" But the Dems ignore the whole issue and stick with "Anything Goes" on OUR side of the aisle.

Hey...some of us Parents out there DO HAVE SOME ISSUES...here. :shrug:

[Cats Against Frist]

39. That was a great post KoKo01

It's true -- for some reason some on the left think that if we don't support "anything goes," then were prudish fundies. Not so, dynamo.

[GreenArrow]

43. I think they (the marketers) don't differentiate

politically; they just want to sell stuff, and children these days have lots of money.

Sometimes the left goes too far with the "anything goes" attitude. Freedom from is as valid as freedom to.

[mongo]

76. More enabling for the religious right

Porn knows no party lines, as far as consumers go.

The vast majority of people actually creating content, are progressive.

But making claims like "the Right Wing LOVES PORN" sure fits your adgenda, doesn't it?

This whole thread is nothing but enabling for the Right Wing to go ahead and sanitize our society.

So when abortion and birth control are illegal, just remember the momentum YOU provided down the slippery slope.

[knitter4democracy]

27. Amen!!!

Right on!

[Cats Against Frist]

38. Excellente, greenarrowpumpkin -- succinct, and dead on.

:applause:

[KoKo]

16. Just so you DU Guy's and Gals know who runs Victoria's Secret...here's

the scoop. So when you are your daughter feel safe and comfy enconsed in VS's laces and frills and the heavenly scent of their perfumeries..here's what the deal is:

------------------

President Bush Announced His Intention to Appoint 32 Individuals to Serve as Members of the Advisory Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiations

President George W. Bush today announced his intention to appoint the following 32 individuals to serve as Members of the Advisory Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiations (ACTPN) each for a two-year term:

The purpose of ACTPN is to provide the U.S. Trade Representative with overall policy advice on matters concerning objectives and bargaining positions before entering into a trade agreement, the operation of any trade agreement once entered into, and other matters arising in connection with trade policy of the United States. ACTPN shall consist of members including representatives of non-federal governments and labor, industry, agriculture, small business, service industries, retailer and consumer interests.

Margaret Cushing Whitman, President and CEO, eBay Inc.
Steven Rollie Rogel, Chairman, President and CEO, Weyerhaeuser Company
Frank Henry Habicht II, CEO, Global Environment and Technology Foundation
Jerome Jasinowski, President, National Association of Maunfacturers
William Frenzel, Guest Scholar, Brookings Institute
Rodolphe Vallee, Chairman, CEO and Owner, R.L. Vallee, Inc.
Bernard Aronson, Managing Partner, ACON Investments, LLC
Edward Emma, President and CEO, Jockey International, Inc.
Jill Considine, Chair and CEO, The Depository Trust and Clearing Corporation
Wythe Willey, President, National Cattlemen's Beef Association
Edward Perkins, Crowe Professor in Geo-Politics and Executive Director of International Programs, University of Oklahoma
Richard Rivera, Vice Chairman, Darden Restaurants
Pete Hanna, Chairman, President and CEO, Hanna Steel Corporation
John Rowland, Governor of Connecticut
Jean-Pierre Rosso, Chairman, CNH Global
Hersh Kozlov, Senior Partner, Wolf, Block, Schorr and Solis-Cohen LLP
Samuel Palmisano, President and CEO, IBM
Corporation JoAnn Brouillette, President, Demeter
Herbert Johnson, Chairman, SC Johnson & Son, Inc.
Hector Ruiz, President and CEO, Advanced Micro Devices
Melinda Bush, President and CEO, HRW Holdings, LLC
Richard Wardrop, Jr., Chairman, CEO and President, AK Steel Corporation
Grace Nichols, President and CEO, Victoria's Secret Stores
Larry Liebenow, President and CEO, Quaker Fabric
Michael Goldstein, Chairman, Toys "R" Us Children's Fund
Thomas Mottola, Chairman and CEO, Sony Music Entertainment
George Fitch, President, IOP Associates, Mayor of Warrenton, VA
Luis Lauredo, President, Hunton & Williams, Latin American Services, LLC
James Winston Morrison, President, Small Business Exporters Association
Walter Bernard Duffy Hickey, Jr., Chairman, Hickey Freeman Company, Inc.
Robert Edward Grady, Managing Director, The Carlyle Group Morgan
Yaping Wang, CEO and Chairman, Angeles Optics, Inc.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:TJncMNKgzgkJ:www.wh...

[mzteris]

22. I refuse to shop there

I think they're exploitative. Woman as object is their message.

I refuse to shop at Abercrombie and Fitch and refuse to buy Calvin Klein - they're selling porn - and in CK's case - kiddie porn.

[JDPriestly]

20. It is sick to push sex on children.

Remember, however, that at common law girls could be engaged at 12 and married at 14. Viewing children as sex objects is a reversion to a less enlightened time.

This is a difficult issue. It is unfair to our children to expose them to sexually suggestive stimuli, or I might add to violent stimuli whether sexual or not, because it deprives them of the experience of just being a child in a child's world. It loads them down with emotional and sensual baggage they don't need.

At the same time, I do not believe in censoring materials available to adults since people do not agree about what should or should not be censored. Remember Ashcroft covering the nude statue? I thought that was nutty. But it shows that we all have different limits. I have to confess, because I don't like porn sites, I still have an effective child protection screening system on my computer (although I had to reduce the screening level to let me go to news sites). I respect, however, the right of others to go to whatever websites they want to visit. And, the sites don't bother me since I block them. (Don't ask me how it works. I have no idea. But my computer doesn't go to porn sites and probably blocks some non-porn sites due to the content.)

When our children were small, we censored the TV they watched and did not have explicitly sexual materials in our house. We never used the TV as a babysitter and never put TVs in our children's rooms. Our children still heard a lot of things at school, but we were pretty successful at protecting them. So, you can prevent the over sexualization of your children in spite of the media.

Once children reach adolescence, I think they need honest sex education from responsible adults that includes discussion about the emotional and spiritual aspects of sex and doesn't treat sex as just a physical function. Anyway, this is very personal, but that is my view.

[KoKo]

24. Good Points and this DU'er does NOT WANT TO GO BACK to a LESS

ENLIGHTENED TIME...where our Daughters were subjugated to stuff that thousands of females worked so hard to NEVER SEE AGAIN!!!!

[mongo]

77. Bringing Fascism is not enlightened.

Censorship is fascism, plain and simple.

[Atman]

26. What is the significance of the age "18?"

Does anyone know?

I'm not getting into a Jerry Lee Lewis thing here, I'm just curious why 18 is such a magic number, especially when nature cranks up the hormones at 12-13. Who set this age?

Do kittens wait until they're a couple years old before they allow themselves to be taken by tomcats? Does ANY animal other than man impose an arbitrary age for "maturity?"

PLEASE don't get me wrong...I can tell already that some will jump on this the wrong way. I'm just trying to make a point that maybe, in fact, we aren't DE-volving, but perhaps E-volving, or RE-volving, back to what nature intended in the first place. Like the levees protecting New Orleans, our attempts to stem the flood of natural hormones via artificial contraints like legislation are simply becoming overtopped.

The age of 18 is totally arbitrary, but it was set in place for good reason, by a bunch of old white men because we know that deep down, we're all fucking pigs (on edit: animals by nature), and without laws, it'd be open season on anything that moves. Thank god most men can be constrained by laws and the fear of life in prison with a 320 lb cell mate who calls you "sweetcakes."

[JDPriestly]

58. Of course, 18 is arbitrary. Adulthood used to be reached at 21.

18 is the age that men are inducted into the military. Actually, I agree that age is arbitrary. And, I hope I made my opinion clear: once a kid hits puberty, they need to have accurate information about sex. My point is that, in my opinion, children -- meaning pre-adolescents should not be exposed to materials that have a lot of sexual or highly violent content.

[AmyDeLune]

64. I think it's also a matter of ability to deliver a healthy baby

The hormones may be zinging around, but most young women don't have a high enough percentage of body fat to keep both themselves and the fetuses healthy and their hips aren't wide enough to give birth easily. In essence, they are still growing up physically until late teens to early 20's.

Personally, I was thin as a rail-- 5'6" and averaging 120 lbs until I was in my early 20's; now in my mid-30's I average around 135-40 lbs.

[Atman]

75. Must be "intelligent design"

All due respect, but that is just silly. Nature made you, and it made you capable of bearing children when you start to bleed, like every other mammal. Not that 12-13yo's are emotionally capable, just that the entire purpose of the whole cycle thing is eggs and babies, or did I miss something in those classes in high school?

[Ron Green]

71. If all girls have to do is gather berries, then let 'em have babies at 13,

when they're physically able to. But if you want them to learn how to make a living, and live a life in the modern world, it's best to wait; not only to have babies, but even to be screwing. There are so many things to learn, and there's plenty of time. (They're not dying at 42, like they did back in the berry-gathering days.)

[Atman]

30. Now that I've played the Devil's Advocate...

It's easy for me to say, because I have two boys, 17 and 19.

I've often thanked the stars that I didn't have girls. Because I'd then have to become a gun owner. ;-)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

45. You haven't played

"Devil's Advocate." You know where you are coming from, and I, and other tenagers/young adults here on DU, thank you for being very honest and speaking the truth.

:D

[misanthrope]

54. I heard a father...

...once say, "When you have a son, you only have to worry about one penis. When you have a daughter, you have to worry about every penis in town."

[WritingIsMyReligion]

55. LOL That's true. n/t

[phylny]

67. Conversely, I thank God FOR my three girls.

No guns necessary ;)

[KoKo]

32. Has anyone here on DU heard about Women's Suffragette Cause?

:eyes: I feel like I'm in a "Star Wars" Warp Century....
Doesn't ANYONE UNDERSTAND why some might get upset with Victoria's Secret and the rest UNDERMINING US? As much as we love our "skimpy undies, silks, lace and perfumes...FGS! There's more to us! And healthy "Manly Males" should love the challenge of the UBER FEMALE who can COMBINE THEM BOTH but still STAY TRUE TO PRINCIPLE. :shrug:
-----------------------------------------------------
Suffragettes & Women's Right to Vote

*
The Movement
o Suffrage - Women's History
o Women's Suffrage Movement (school material)
o Suffragettes - Give Women the Vote! (a school project)
o British Suffragette Movement - The Effect of Militancy
o The Suffragettes - UK Parliament
o Women's Suffrage in the USA
o Susan B. Anthony - House Links
o Woman Suffrage and the 19th Amendment
o Womens Suffrage Movement - Womens Struggle to Get the Right to Vote
o Women's Suffrage Movement in the US - Sophia Smith Collection
o National American Woman Suffrage Association (NAWSA)
o National American Woman Suffrage Association
o Women Suffrage in Illinois
o Women's Suffrage Movement (CPL)
o Women's Suffrage Movement
o Parliamentary Campaigns
o Hunger Strikes
o Women Win the Vote
o Emancipation of Women
o Search Results - Teachervision
o Organizations on Women's Suffrage
o Suffragettes as Abolitionists
o Women's suffrage exhibit
o Suffragette - Wikipedia
o Women and Marxism
o We Fight for Bread and Roses
o Suffragists Oral History Project
o Suffragettes and Women's Rights
o Centre for Advancement of Women in Politics - Ireland
o Even in stone, suffragettes cause a stir on Capitol Hill - CNN 5/97
o First lady helps celebrate founding of women's movement - CNN 7/98
o Votes for Women: Selections from the National American Woman Suffrage Association Collection, 1848-1921
o National Union of Suffrage Societies in Britain
o Murdoch Library - Pankhurst Collection / Women's Studies
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:Y3z07koSvXgJ:www.betterworldlinks.org/book41zh.htm+Suffragette+Movement&hl=en

[Greyhound]

36. Suffragette? Suffrage, please drop the diminutive ette. n/t

[KoKo]

42. The Male Suffrages...sort of got their "act together" earlier, though....

THEY had the POWER. :eyes:

I'll stick with Suffragette."

[WritingIsMyReligion]

47. We don't need the "-ette" suffix.

We're women of fire, damnit!

:D :D :D

[WritingIsMyReligion]

44. Okay. You want the scoop? I AM A NINTH GRADER. Harken:

I, personally, do not believe that 25% of my peers have had sex. 9th graders will do ANYTHING to look cool, including lying about sex. Parents always downplay high school, and though it's true that we teenagers are dramatic and grumpy and way hormonal, it is also true that it can be rough to be growing up in our age. Let me save that for a different rant, though...

Truth be told, abstinence-only sex education DOES NOT WORK ANY BETTER THAN "NORMAL" SEX EDUCATION. I personally am a virgin, and proud to be so, but there are others--and there will always BE others--who will not make the same decisions. You cannot put an age on sex--"Wait until eighteen, seventeen, sixteen," etc. I believe that if sex is done between two people who have a commitment to one another and take all necessary precautions, it is all right.

"Wait until marriage--" Be honest, you guys. How many of you adults remained virgins until marriage? I know that was a different age, with far less risk in sex, but still. The hormones haven't changed since the sixties/seventies/eighties.

SO--I've nothing against sex between committed partners, done in the safest way possible, and I've nothing against masturbation. What I DO have something against is the marketing of sex to people my age. The clothes, the music... it all seems to fulfill the purpose of "being laid." We're TEENAGERS. Our judgment can be very, VERY poor. That's why we need parents, teachers, family members to help remind us. Sometimes it seems like we're not going to listen to a word you say, but believe me when I say that MOST teenagers DO listen.

Talk to us, give us advice, help us make the right decision. In the end, your involvement will help more than it will hurt.

WE NEED YOU. Don't believe a word we say otherwise.

[KoKo]

48. Thanks for your honest opinion...I have no doubt that folks are trying

to manipulate studies about "sex amongst teens" (overblowing 9th Grade Sex...like they did in my generation..the first generation to be "studied by the great Marketeers.)

I've been worried about how YOU GALS/GUY's can cope with the MARKET PLACE PUSHED on you 24/7 by Comedy Central and all the Cables and Networks and how you all deal with being under a microscope like "insects."

They WANT YOU ALL CREDIT CARDED TO THE MAX! What happens to those of you who "think for yourselves?" HOW DO YOU DEAL with all the PRESSURE?

:shrug:

It kind of turns me off....but I grew up in a diffent time...still it was hard to go "against the grain." I was okay...but I took "hard critcism" that still stays with me and some of it has been really hard to deal with.

I feel I'm better for it, though.....but it's been a sacrifice. :shrug:

It's hard to make choices about this stuff when one knows that the easier choice leads to a more "endowed" existence.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

49. The pressure is

stunningly overwhelming. We're hormonal, like I said, and we can't think straight half the time. Corporations exploit our hormones--and, yes, our natural obsession with sex that arises from these hormones. It's fine to fantasize about sex. It's TERRIBLE for greedy, money-making pigs to exploit our fantasies, making sex something terribly common.

My eighth-grade health teacher said one of the truest things I've ever heard: "You DON'T have sex. Animals--dogs, cats, horses--have sex. Humans make love. There is a major psychological difference."

[KoKo]

52. There's alot to be said about what your

8th Grade Teacher said.

Hormones raging and looking at Paris Hilton and others..does make one wonder where it all should go.

Hormones raging...We know the deal. :D

But,Brittany Spears/ Paris Hilton and the rest can get away with what the "Average American can't. In that passionate moment...we aren't gonna be taken care of like the American Media Chosen..who have their Agents who spin their sexual escapades and make money when the the "Million Dollar Baby" is born...or when Mommy or Daddy has to go into Drug Rehab. There's money to be made on the Upside and Downside of the Rich and Famous Lives.

But, as you wisely know, most of us with "raging hormones" don't have access to "THEIR LIFESTYLE."

It must be enormously hard to deal with all this out there........

[WritingIsMyReligion]

53. What you said about the celebrities

is absolutely true. 99% of the population doesn't have what they have.

I have to ask: do these people have ANY shame whatsoever? Are they not afraid and ashamed of what they've done? It is people like this who put me in a terrible, pessimistic, impending-apocalypse state of mind.

What will become of the human race?

I can only hope--and WORK to make it so--that the pendulum of world affairs and politics will begin to swing back over to the left...

[KoKo]

56. The "Celebrities have been there forever."

It's best to ignore them and their lifestyles. Years in Rehab...Coke Snorting that keeps them thin, and mucho money they need to make to go to the best spa's for "nips and tucks, vein therapy, transplants, lifts and redo's."

I don't know...there's always seemed to be more JOY TO LIFE that what the "Celebrities" represent...but they do help our economy by asking folks to Credit Card to the Max to Emulate them.

Then they get old, washed up and the Media Passes them by. They have no legacy other than their bodies and sex to sell.

It's kind of an empty hollow life even though there's lots of money and good looks there. It all is fleeting.

I think there's better out there...I think in the end the "Celebs" recognize that too..but I give it to them for making the Bucks while they can...even if they have to "prostitute" for it. They at least have a chance to make up for it by donating to good causes in their "legacy years" with their $$$'s. Those who chose to and have something left of the money they made.

It's kind of more of a sacrifice for the rest of us to keep trying for change with our little dollars. :shrug:

[pitohui]

61. hmm

wasn't aware that you had to have a certain "lifestyle" to enjoy sex

this is a silly argument

no celebrity told me to have sex, my body told me

believe it or not, the female body is capable of passion

i feel like i'm stumbled into the 1880s here

the cure for raging hormones is to learn how to use yr body safely & not be brainwashed to believing in "love," girls who believe in love, yes, they end up unhappy, they don't protect themselves because they want to be spontaneous & swept away, they don't walk away from a bad relationship because they must be in love because they had sex w. the guy and they're not the kind to do a one night stand, ugh

"love" is what keeps girls down, not sex, sex is natural, "love" for a teen-ager is just a lie, being able to experiment & cut yr losses is not a negative in my view, but what do i know, i'm just one woman

but this i know for sure, you regret nothing so much as the things you DIDN'T do

[KoKo]

50. We Dems better learn that lots of Americans don't like "Soft Porn." and

the more we fight against the "soft issues" the more we will lose. And this comes from a VERY LEFTY DEM....

On Social Issues about Kids and Porn..though, we better understand why the Religious Right is gaining ground and that Bush is so strong about Vouchers for Parents to put their kids in Religious Schools.

WHY do Parents want their kids out of "Public Schools" is an issue we need to understand.

Lots of Liberal Parents try to get their own kids into religious schools to keep them out of Public Schools. WHY?

This isn't just some SOUTHERN FUNDIE THING, here.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

51. Very interesting points. n/t

[mongo]

78. Maybe we Dems should look to Europe

where there isn't such a repressed attitude about sex and nudity.

Because they have lower rates of teen pregnancy, STD's, etc.

[kiki]

57. Aww dear,

Did we throw our lot in with "anything-goes, sex-sells" capitalism, and think that we could reconcile it with "anything-sends-ya-to-hell, don't-touch-that" Christianity?

As they say in Scotland, "tough tumshie". Want a free market, but don't want people to be free? Can't do it, babe. Controlling people's sexuality... to do that, you need something like... dare I say it... Communism! Gotta have that laissez-faire capitalism, but with your arbitrarily defined social borders... "The world is yours! But don't get too excited..." Good luck with that, you fucking retards.

Here's a scary idea. How about teaching people that - bottom line - they have a responsibility to be decent to each other, and that overrides the profit motive... yeah, sounds like it would work, don't it... but somehow your bank balances just don't agree...

Reap what you sow, you fucking money-grabbing scumbags.

[KoKo]

60. Nope...it ain't "All or Nothing." One can still be discriminating and

support Women's rights. I can think of nothing better than that some of us females want NOT to be "Prostitutes to Capitalism." And, fighting against the Exploitation of Females for Profit might be a new cause.

You can't lump it all together...saying to have Equal Rights for Women means "Equal Rights to be Esploited."

I will never go along with that. And, there are many of us out there who feel the same way. We are Democrats and Proud of it...but the Repugs are trying to co-opt our RIGHTS against Exploitation and turn it into a Christian Fundie Thing and many Dem Females are happy to go along with it. I don't know why...but I know that I'm vocal as a Dem Female who is against the Exploitation that Repugs and Religious Fanatics always do to us...because they think they can get us on the Politically Correct Deal.

Why do you think Rush Limpballs calls us "Feminazi's?" You think he doesn't get how to divide us? :shrug:

[pitohui]

62. if you want to take away my sexual pleasure

then i'm happy to be divided from you

i see nothing positive from telling girls that they should wait to be "in love" and that sex is otherwise a filthy, dirty, exploitive thing instead of one of the most intense experiences of their life

you see, they are going to find out anyway that sex feels good

they don't need to britney to tell them

most girls in this society do have a clitoris

we are not going to win by telling a bigger lie than the other guy's big lie

why not try some truth?

sex is not ugly, ppl who think sex is ugly have an illness & should share that info w. their doctor not w. the rest of us

[kiki]

63. I agree with both of you...

...my main point was to highlight the ridiculousness of the hypocritical bind in which the capitalist/religious right find themselves. Sex is BAD... but it sells. Ain't life a bitch?

[phylny]

68. Sex is wonderful, beautiful, and to me, an adult act that has adult

consequences.

If you're not ready to deal with the consequences, don't do it. If you are, have at it.

[AnnieBW]

70. Sex is Sacred!

No, this isn't "every sperm is sacred." I don't have kids, so I can't really say one way or the other. But, to me, sex is sacred. The all-or-nothing attitude that we're seeing devalues young women by saying that they HAVE to be sexually active or they're "losers". Yeah, well, I got to college and promptly lost my virginity to a real pig, because I wanted to hang with the right people. So, this sh*t has been around forever. When I was younger, it was Madonna scandalizing everyone. Now it's Britsy-witsy, Christina Aguilera, the Simpson bimbos (and not the cartoon ones!) etc. It's all a reaction to the repressive attitude about sex in this country.

[ismnotwasm]

66. Gotta talk to the kids

Me? I'm too blunt evidently. I had a couple of conversation with my daughters that went like this (when they were younger):
Youngest daughter, 15 (busty girl, good figure) Comes out wearing a low cut, revealing shirt. Me: "Why are you wearing that?" "It's just a shirt!" Me: "Well a lot of your breasts are exposed, what are you trying to say wearing a shirt like that?" "Nothing! It's just a shirt!" Me: "Look, you have nice breasts. Nothing to be ashamed of. I understand wanting to show them off, but you need to be honest with yourself and me. WHY are you wearing a shirt like that?" (quiet little voice) "So boys will look at me" Started a whole conversation that way about body image and sexuality. I did the same thing when they wanted tongue piercings. I didn't forbid it, I wanted them to be perfectly clear on the sexual history of the those particular piercings. I also made those girls make there own appointments for birth control. Encouraged condom use. (Told them I don't give a shit WHAT some boy tells you about sensation! If you're going to have sex, wear a goddam condom.) Offered to get female condoms for them. Discussed abstinence. Virginity was not important to me, responsibility in choices was. And being females, I made DAMN sure they were aware of the continuing saga of double standards in sexual behavior. The slut/stud discrepancy in females and males.
As far as society sexualizing little girls-- it's a natural progression from seeing women in general as sexual objects. What did anybody expect in this day and age? There is NOT sexual equality, just because women "choose" to get laid. And little boys pay the price as well as adult males. The damage of sexism runs very, very deep. Most folks seem to want to tsk, tsk and blame consumerism. Consumerism has it's greedy little hands up to armpits in this, but to me, the root is sexism.

[progressivebydesign]

69. I'm qualifed, as the parent of a 13 year old girl, to comment on this.

It's true, the pressure from adverstisers and retailers is IMMENSE. How frustrating it is to see our girls childhoods being ROBBED from them all in the name of some corporation that sees them as fresh meat for profits. They kids are NOT finding this level of sexuality on their own, it's in the ads, it's in the media, it's being thrust on them for what.. for money.

The whole marketing push to the "tweeners" is the sexualize and supposedly empower them to be good little consumers. See, if the reatailers can objectify the younger girls, they can mold them into believing that they need all those products to be sexy and beautiful. Yeah.. sexy at 12. How freakin' sick is that?

My daughter's school acquaintances (not her friends) are supposedly squeaky clean little born-again girls, the preps. They ALL listen to the most sexual, gender demeaning, rap that you can find. They love Mommy and Daddy, Jesus, and 50 Cent. No lie. They pose on their My Space pages in sexual come-hither looks.. at 12. They are being used and abused by corporate America. They are not coming about this naturally. Your daughter's childhoods are being bought and sold by a bunch of suits in corporate board rooms everywhere. It's the money. It's all about the money.

[MrSlayer]

72. Tinfoil hat time.

Is there any way possible that this constant bombardment of sexual pressure toward suburban and rich kids (It's never a "problem" until it hits there) combined with the relentless quest to outlaw abortion is a play by the powers that be to increase the slowly but surely decreasing white population?

Could be. :tinfoilhat:

[Warren DeMontague]

74. I think it's the intersection of capitalism and America's favorite pastime

namely, being a fucking control freak- and plainly, it's not limited only to the far right.

[Warren DeMontague]

73. You mean a "ethicist at the U of C Divinity School" has a problem w/ SEX?

Say it isn't so.

[KoKo]

79. "Funneling Downward" is a great description of our Media today....

:-(

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. Capitalism gone awry

For some reason, I don't think Swedish girls, the dirty secularist socialist sluts that they are, parade around with "bootylicious" written on their butts.