Roe V Wade - The Great Bogeyman

[DemocratSinceBirth]

I'm tired of conservatives whining about Roe v Wade while preserving it as a wedge issue. Perhaps it would be best to let it go back to the states and fight it out there...


Even with the Miers and Roberts appointment they are still one vote short so expect a lot more whining from the right...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. the right doesn't want Roe to be overturned

because poll after poll shows a majority of Americans approve of choice. And all it will take is some cute little blonde girl being mutilated and killed by a back alley abortionist with ties to the Mob to set the people against the right wing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. That's Why We Need To Call Their Bluff...

eom

[Poppyseedman]

3. I can't agree more

This should have always been a states issue.

On it's face, the original Roe V Wade decision was bad law.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. I'm Not Convinced It Was Bad Law

I am just tired of Republican whining...

[Poppyseedman]

10. Any SCOTUS decision that has been revisited like

three times to change or amend the wording was not a good decision in the first place

[VelmaD]

13. Ah...but was why was it re-worded?

Was it truly because it was bad law or because the right-wing nuts placed on the court since the original decision just wanted to fuck with it? Some of them aren't exactly known for their well-reasoned legal decisions *cough Bush v. Gore cough* ;)

[Poppyseedman]

53. Actually, I agree with the SCOTUS decision

on Bush v. Gore.
Not necessarily the way it come out, but the decision was a sound interpretation of the 14th amendment and the Constitution as a whole.

As for Roe V Wade, if it wasn't revisited in the way it was, it certainly would have been overturned by now, regardless of who is on the court. It was written poorly and left open to be attacked.

[Catch22Dem]

4. Funny you should mention it

I brought this up a few days ago. Pretty much everyone who replied agreed with me.

EDITED - Here's the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2137786

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. The Issue Has Huge Symbolic Performance...

I think many nominally Republican women will recoil from the notion that their uterus is government controlled property...

[VelmaD]

7. I'm so glad you posted this...

I needed to update my list of DUers who think women's right to control their own bodies is an expendable issue. :eyes:

[Lars39]

8. .

I somehow feel a hand patting my "purty little head".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Nice Strawman...

I think a strategy that allows your opponent to gain political advantage for advocating a policy he has no intention to fulfill should be reexamined...

[VelmaD]

11. Maybe it's just easier..

for men to believe they have no intention of overturning Roe since it doesn't really effect y'all.

As a woman I don't particularly want it going back to the states. Have you SEEN some of the crazy shit they do in state governments? I live in Texas so I know ALL about what happens when your state government is taken over by right-wing whack-jobs.

Women's rights should not be decided on a state by state basis. Period.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. I Defer To No One In My Support For Gender Equity..

I'm just sick and tired of Pugs benefiting from advocating policy that they have no desire to fulfill....

[VelmaD]

20. Since you are repeating yourself...

it's obvious you missed my point. I very rarely see women on DU taking the position you do in this thread. Have you ever wondered why that is? All I'm saying is that is seems a whole lot easier for men to write this off as a non-issue and believe that the right-wing doesn't intend to overturn Roe because it doesn't really effect you.

But it effects me. I live in a state where the right-wing nuts encourage pharmacists to NOT provide me with birth control pills. Knowing that they want to take away my birth control makes it MUCH easier for me to believe they really DO want to take away abortion as well.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. It Has Nothing To Do With Gender

And everything to do with not allowing the Republicans to play the cynical game of calling for the overturn of Roe and while doing nothing tangible to make it happen....


Bush* could not have won the election without the support of pro-choice women....

[VelmaD]

27. They've done plenty of tangible things...

in the last 20 years or have you not been paying attention. Parental notification laws. Waiting periods. Bans on particular types of abortion procedures. The gag rule. Refusing to allow any federal funds to be used to pay for abortions...not just for women on medicaid but also for women who are federal employees or in the military. Laws in some states requiring doctors to essentially LIE to patients about the "risks" or abortion". Every year they chip away legally at my access to abortion. In most parts of the country a woman might as well not even have the right because there's no abortion provider anyway. *sigh*

[MountainLaurel]

46. Yep.

:grr:

[TomClash]

12. I agree

I'm sick of this issue and, frankly, Roe is a legal nightmare of a decision anyway. Plus, young women don't really appear to want to fight for it - young women, if I'm wrong feel free to flame me!

[VelmaD]

15. Consider yourself flamed

And when did the willingness to fight for your rights become the pre-requisite for having them? What the hell ever happened to "inalienable" rights? Are you doing something right this second fighting to keep the rights you lost in the PATRIOT ACT? If not, they you obviously weren't using them anyway. What. Ever.

I'm oh so sorry that you as a man are sick of women agitating for the right to control our own bodies.

[TomClash]

28. "Consider yourself wrong"

The Cosntitution doesn't explicitly state this as an inalienable right, though it should. And if the ERA has passed we wouldn't have this problem. The best argument is not some vague inalienable rights and penumbras but an expansion of the equal protection clause. Justice Ginsburg wrote eloquently about this before she ascended to the bench.

I have always supported a woman's right to choice.

Re-read my post. My point was 18-35 y/o women aren't pulling their weight.

Who's "sick of women agitating for the right to control of our own bodies?" Not me.

You can flame all you want but don't make stuff up.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. I Don't Think It's A Bad Decision

because I believe in unenumerated rights and a expansive definition of the fourth amendment...


I'm just tired of Republican cynicism...

[TomClash]

22. Roe is a tortured "original intent" analysis

I think it should have been an equal protection case or nothing at all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. It Was Based Largely On The Fourteenth Amendment

I find justiification in the Fourth and the Ninth Amendments...

[TomClash]

32. Yeah, I know

but there is a long and tortured original intent analysis. Go read it again.

The decision is a nightmare of jurisprudence. I think abortion is essentially an equal protection case -it specifically denies women equal protection under law by applying a statute solely to them and not men.

[TomClash]

14. Of course

as always there is a strong class element here. The poor in the outlaw states will have a hard time accessing abortions while the rich and upper middle class will easily be able to afford the higher prices and plane rides to New York and LA.

[VelmaD]

17. It's not just the poor

I am by no means poor but I don't make a lot of money and most of it goes to bills. If Texas outlawed abortion and I needed to travel to another state to have one it would be difficult if not impossilbe for me without some serious help.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. That Will Stick In Their Craw When Women Of Means Will Flout Their Little

Laws...


But I think abortion will remain legal in many states...

[VelmaD]

21. So which of your rights...

are you willing to let the States decide? Which of your own rights are you willing to give up if your State legislature gets overrun with right-wing whackos like mine did?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. None

But most of our rights are guaranteed by the federal constitution... State legislatures can't do anything they want...

[VelmaD]

31. Well, apparently...

whether a right is protected depends on whether the federal courts think it is or not. I used to think the constitution protected me against unreasonable and warrantless search and seizure. Well, the courts have seemed fine so far with the parts of the PATRIOT Act that would let the feds break into my home and tap my phone and puter without a warrant if they think I'm a terrorist. Basically just a progression from some of the draconian measures of the "War on Drugs" that the courts have let slide for years anyway.

Be very careful in believing you have rights in the Consitution that are non-negotiable.

Does the phrase "First Amendment Zone" ring a bell?

Your rights might just be next.

[Zynx]

23. Indeed. Call their bluff.

Make them explain why with so many court appointments since 1973 they have not gotten rid of Roe.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. They Are Still One Vote Short

So we don't know yet...

[Zynx]

30. That's if Roberts and Miers want to overturn Roe.

Bear in mind, there have been six Republican court appointments since 1973 that are still on the bench. O'Connor, Scalia, Kennedy, Stevens, Souter, and Thomas. Notice anything about those names? A majority of them are Pro-Roe. Now it is very unclear where Roberts stands on Roe. It is entirely possibe that he is sincere and believes that it is established precedent, in which case he is unlikely to vote to overturn.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. I Tend To Agree...

I watched the Roberts hearing and that's the impression I get...


And the Court can only rule on what's before them...


That means for Roe to be overturned a state would have to prohibit abortions and a person with standing would have to challenge it...


I don't see a state going that far....

Most of the challenges have revolved around restrictions like waiting periods, parental notifications, and licensing requirements...

[Lars39]

34. Why else would Bushco have shopped him to the fundies for a year,

if not for Roberts being willing to give them the theocracy they crave?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. to bamboozle them and keep them in check till the next election

eom

[Lars39]

36. Remains to be seen as to who is being bamboozled.

[Zynx]

45. You assume the right is sincere about overturning Roe.

Just remember that the majority of justices appointed by the Republicans over the past 30 years have been pro-Roe.

[Lars39]

51. I would not consider Bush a Republican at this point.

Whoever he nominates is a radical.

[TahitiNut]

37. Oh, goodie! Wait until I buy coat-hanger company stock!

:eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. You're Assuming It Would Be Banned Nationwide

eom

[TahitiNut]

39. You obviously haven't the slightest fucking idea what I'm "assuming".

Roll the clock back pre-1973 and tell me about state abortion laws and coat-hanger deaths! Juesusfuckingkeerist! :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. If Roe Is Overturned The Decision To Allow Abortion Would Return To The

States...

[TahitiNut]

41. Got coat-hanger company stock?

Constitutional rights are for all Americans, not just those in states where legislators refuse to allow abortion. A "states' rights" amendment would return women to the days when medically safe abortions were reserved for those who lived in pro-choice states or who could pay for travel or high-priced illegal practitioners.

One dollar, one vote, huh??? :eyes:

In the 1950s, about a million illegal abortions a year were performed in the U.S., and over a thousand women died each year as a result. Women who were victims of botched or unsanitary abortions came in desperation to hospital emergency wards, where some died of widespread abdominal infections. Many women who recovered from such infections found themselves sterile or chronically and painfully ill. The enormous emotional stress often lasted a long time.

Poor women and women of color ran the greatest risks with illegal abortions. In 1969, 75% of the women who died from abortions (most of them illegal) were women of color. Of all legal abortions in that year, 90% were performed on white private patients.

http://www.feminist.com/resources/ourbodies/abortion.html

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. It's A Question Of Calling The Republican's Bluff...

And this conversation is probably moot because the Republicans want to keep abortion alive as a wedge issue and if they don't then we will have no choice but to fight it out state by state...

[TahitiNut]

43. It's easy for you to play Russian Roulette ...

... when the revolver is aimed at somebody else's head, huh? :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Hmmm

I really have little say on the matter .....

[MountainLaurel]

47. Absolutely

:grr:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. I Vote For Pro-Choice Candidates

I voted against a parental notification amendment in the state of Florida when it was on the 04 ballot; an amendment that passed by the way with about sixty five percent of the votes...


My only point is that the Republicans are playing a game with abortion by simultaneously telling their base they want to eliminate it while doing nothing of substance to make it happen so they can capture the votes of nominally pro choice women and rabidly anti choice voters...

[MountainLaurel]

52. And how many dead women

Would make calling the Republicans' bluff not worth the political gains? Because that is EXACTLY what will happen if we allow RvW to go back to the states.

[TahitiNut]

54. Merely collateral damage from a street-gangster game of 'chicken'.

This is the kind of 'thinking' that accompanies rabid partisanship, imho, and is why I'm a conscientiously anti-partisan independent. When the vessel of a political party jettisons its cargo of ideals and principles merely to get a better position at the receiving dock, it has lost sight of its proclaimed raison d'etre. It's the very heart of corruption: power for power's sake alone.

[enlightenment]

49. And therein lies the rub.

While I agree that Roe is flawed, it is disconcerting to see liberals suggest that the right to abortion should be a state issue -- the argument of many in the anti-abortion camp.

Before Roe, 17 states allowed legal abortion -- with restrictions and a high price-tag. Women with money and connections have always had a better chance of ending an unwanted pregnancy; I worry about those who lack the resources.

Abortion is an effect, not a cause. As we continue to allow states to decide whether or not they will give women access to birth control or teach sex ed to young men and women, we tacitly create an environment that leads to more unwanted pregnancies.
Would that we could all live in states run by people with common sense -- but not all of us can.

Since Roe is flawed, we need to push for something that isn't -- but in the meantime, Roe is the little protection we have. It's nice to think that the Right doesn't really want to overturn Roe -- but dangerous to believe that the states should have the right to control women's bodies and lives. We've already tried that.

The Center for Reproductive Rights conducted a state by state survey last year -- here's a brief snippet from the summary online:

http://www.crlp.org/pr_04_1005roerelease.html

"Here is the breakdown of the states and the level of risk for women to lose their abortion rights:

21 States at High Risk: Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Virginia, and Wisconsin.

9 states at Middle Risk: Arizona, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania.

20 states Likely Protected: Alaska, California, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Tennessee, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia, and Wyoming."

[tinrobot]

48. Roe v Wade wins them elections - why overturn it?

If they actually overturn Roe, they'll lose one of their most politically profitable issues.

It's best to string the fundies along for another 20 years so they can continue to exploit them to win elections and enact their real agenda - dismantling the social safety net and making the rich even richer.