BIRD FLU: conversation and gossip around the fire pit

[nashville_brook]

last night we had people over to celebrate my husband's 39th birthday. it was our FIRST chilly weekend of fall -- perfect for fire pit.

so, we're just talking about all the crazy shit going on right now -- earthquakes, indictments -- and one of our guests mentioned that her boss (collegue, coworker, ect)) is a friend of tipper gore's. they do fundraising for an educational initiative or some such. i've known my friend (relating the story for a decade, and her husband for 20 years; they're like family.

fwiw -- the gossip is that tipper is "concerned" about bird flu just the same way we are, and discreetly urged the friend to keep tamiflu on hand (specifically the 10-day course).

we were all like, "yeah, but exactly how DO you get tamiflu?" it seems subversive. my doc has no patience for stuff like this. she's careful not to do upend her PTBs. is there a drug dealer i can call who only deals in antibiotics? no.

i think it would be nice if our LEADERs took the intiative here and urged our doctors to just go ahead and write prescriptions for anyone who asks. just let us try to protect our families and ourselves. it'd make us feel better given what we've just seen of how they handle an emergency. why wait? why risk spreading the disease by expecting sick people to go to the doctor for a diagnosis? i KNOW when i have the flu. i'm not a complete idiot.

Bush's very first response to Avian Flu, was "give me the power and i will give you the military -- THAT'll keep you safe from the flu." WHAT!? does this make sense to ANYONE? why bring soldiers into the equation?

is this, "starve a cold, shoot a fever?"

what about a simple public healthcare response? PREVENT an emergency.

IF they're expecting something so large it would require a MILITARY response, doesn't it seem like we could RISK a few simple PREVENTATIVE measures?

why call out the Gaurd when we could just call the pharmacy?

if compassionate conservatives can't muster the humanity to do this to alieviate suffering, might they do so to protect WORKER PRODUCTIVITY? think of all the sick days we'll have to take.

there it is. "tamiflu" and "10-day course." get some if you can if you are so inclined.

[NNN0LHI]

1. ...urged our doctors to just write prescriptions for anyone who asks...

I suggest that if anyone has a doctor that won't already do that to look for another doctor pronto. Doctors work for you not the other way around.

Don

[nashville_brook]

4. i'm going to go ahead and give it a shot

and my husband goes to another doc, so he can his doc as well. i might need to switch anyway given that she's really hard to talk to and deal with.

[nashville_brook]

38. your's was the first post, as i've been digesting this today, and i think

you are absolutely right. as of earlier today i couldn't see myself bringing this to my doc and expecting her to work with me. but you're right. she needs to be on my team. i only get 10 minutes of face-time. the rest of my health welfare comes from MY assessment. my concerns. i'm so tired of doctor ego. she can either work with me on this or really and truly, i need to find someone more proactive.

[Silverhair]

2. Can over use of Tamiflu make the flu resistant to it?

Tamiflu has to be taken within a narrow time window after exposure. It works by making it difficult for a flu virus to attach itself to a cell in your lungs. Once the flu is already widespread in your body, it is too late for Tamiflu.

Can flu mutate to a resistant form for Tamiflu?

I have read that it is already becoming resistant to two other flu medicines that are being used in China. The Chinese have been giving the meds to their chickens to try to eliminate the bird flu and all that has happened is that the bird flu has developed immunity to the two meds.

[nashville_brook]

5. yeah, the idea in humans is to have it on hand in case you get symptoms.

rather than taking it right away.

all sorts of antibiotics are used in animal farming which is causing "super-bugs" that are fiercley resistant.

we try to get antibiotic and hormone-free everything but it's pretty hard.

[pitohui]

17. friend, avian flu already resistant to tamiflu

you have fallen for a scam

maybe the original poster is an innocent repeater of this big lie, i dunno, but it has been widely reported that scientists now confirm tamiflu DON'T WORK for avian flu

sheesh

this is a news site, so why don't ppl read the news?

do a google, hell, it was on C-N-freakin-N not exactly an obscure news site

if they'd busted the story on rawstory or something, i guess ppl here might actually have a clue train

don't buy tamiflu, don't pester yr doctor to sell your worthless drugs, your doctor is the one w. medical training, sheesh

stay well, ppl, poisoning yrself w. useless drugs is not good for the body or the pocketbook

[nashville_brook]

30. i'm totally with you on being skeptical of big pharma, or pharma period

i offer this in the spirit of sharing a slice of info. take it fwiw. my adopted parents (my maternal grandparents) lived thru the 1918 flu and went apeshit during the Swine Flu epidemic. mother got sick and daddy had just had open-heart surgery. luckily he never got the bug as he was recovering.

but i take an "information is power" stand on this. if what i say jibes or not with your info is for you to decide. i want you to be right.

i totally agree about useless and over-medication.

peace out -- gotta watch a DVD with the hubby.

[Mojorabbit]

32. not true

TORONTO (CP) - It appears a misunderstanding, not a mutation, is behind recent reports suggesting the H5N1 avian flu strain is developing resistance to the drug Tamiflu.

The professor of pharmacology from Hong Kong University quoted as warning of an emerging resistant strain of the virus says he was citing old data, not new evidence, when he gave an interview last week.

He was trying to urge GlaxoSmithKline to reintroduce an injectable form of their rival flu drug, Relenza. The resulting report suggested Tamiflu was becoming less useful - a claim that was widely repeated.

"My point is to emphasize on the introduction of injectable drugs. But they use a headline 'Resistant H5N1 appears in Vietnam,' " Dr. William Chui, who is also chief of the pharmacy service of Hong Kong's Queen Mary Hospital, said in an interview.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
I have my ten day course stashed away. it has a decent shelf life and is good for two years after the expiration date. It takes I think about eight months to make though and is becoming in short supply. Get it now if possible while it is available.

[nashville_brook]

37. i'm going to give it my best shot going thru the docs. responding to posts

is helping me see that i really have a good argument to appeal for preventative measures. it occurs to me that when i had my spinal infection it was mandatory that i get the damn flu shot. if my doc tells me no, then i'll just find another doc.

there's nothing worse than having to change doctors. i swear it leaves a "black mark" on your record. all in all i'm prolly more pissed about having to deal with the fucked up healthcare system than i'm worried about dying from the flu. but when tipper gore says, "it's coming. be ready," i HAVE to listen.

[MildyRules]

45. Actually, that has NOT been widely reported.

Tamiflu did not work on some who were already dying of avian flu. It has NOT been widely reported that Tamiflu does not work on the avian flu. Avian flu has been reported to be "resistant" to Tamiflu. That is all.

[OnionPatch]

59. I heard this too but now they're saying it's not true

Here's what I read just yesterday about this resistance issue:

TORONTO (CP) - It appears a misunderstanding, not a mutation, is behind recent reports suggesting the H5N1 avian flu strain is developing resistance to the drug Tamiflu.

The professor of pharmacology from Hong Kong University quoted as warning of an emerging resistant strain of the virus says he was citing old data, not new evidence, when he gave an interview last week.

He was trying to urge GlaxoSmithKline to reintroduce an injectable form of their rival flu drug, Relenza. The resulting report suggested Tamiflu was becoming less useful - a claim that was widely repeated.


http://working.canada.com/winnipeg/sectors/story.html?s_id=HYHIV3%2BWhcg94Hwmo9PgtVyZopR7LWpJH84Oj%2FiJCbhIdSB4wMzNqQ%3D%3D

[valerief]

3. I don't think I've ever had the flu and I'm oldish

Well, I may have had it once as a teenager.

I'm concerned because I don't know if I can tell the difference between a bad cold and the flu (avian or otherwise) the first couple of days.

BTW, I never get flu shots either.

[nashville_brook]

6. as someone who catches everything that comes around -- you KNOW

when it's the flu. your body hurts. you have the sweats. you pass out and wake up freezing.

you know you have the flu when you feel like you're dying, already.

[valerief]

12. A bad cold has me hot and cold and tired

But I don't get the aches. Guess it's not the flu.

[nashville_brook]

15. it's a little early for flu season too, so you're prolly ok

:) take some vitamin C and drink some nice hot tea. that's good advice if you're sick or not.

i guess what has me so bird flu crazy is this was the first cold front of the fall and the migrating birds came right in front of it. we had some amazing sightings and are waiting for our seasonal residents. it's sad to have to worry about them bringing sickness with them.

[Rainscents]

36. You'll know when you have flu! You get the major body aches first!

I mean, it fucking hurt!

[supernova]

8. Well, it's not always obvious

but the achiness and profound fatigue is a dead givaway.

With a cold you can generally function.

[nashville_brook]

11. i might just be sensitive, too. it seems like i get sicker and stay sick

longer than most of my friends.

[HeeBGBz]

31. I had the flu about 2 years ago pre-Christmas

I started feeling ill in the afternoon and by that evening I was laid out - in bed and miserable. It was Christmas Party night and I was too sick to go. I was down and out for 4 days and felt like shit for two weeks.

You'll know if you get it.

[nashville_brook]

34. i've been reading the literature and even in drug trials of tamilflu

they often rely on self-assessment for determining the onset of flu. Tamilflu only works in the first 40-48 hours of onset. it blocks an enzyme that keeps the virus from taking you all the way down -- so it seems to me that if we do rely on waiting until we get the flu, that we have to act FAST to get to the doc and start the therapy or else it won't work.

[wildeyed]

7. What about Sambucol?

Black elderberry extract. There are clinical trials indicating that it is very helpful for fighting the flu.

Sambucol®, an all-natural, proprietary black elderberry extract (Sambucus nigra L.) distributed by Nature's Way Products, Inc., reduces symptoms and shortens duration of flu types A & B, finds a clinical study accepted for publication in The Journal of International Medical Research.

On average, flu patients given Sambucol recovered in 3.1 days compared to 7.1 days for those given placebo. Fifty-four patients with verified type A flu and six with type B (29 females/31 males aged 18 to 54 years) were enrolled in the double-blind, placebo-controlled study conducted through the University of Oslo School of Medicine, Norway. Study participants were randomly assigned to two groups, with one given Sambucol (1 tbsp) and the other placebo four times a day for five days. No significant side effects were reported.

http://www.supplementquality.com/efficacy/sambucol_flu.html

It is possible to buy Tamiflu without a prescription online from european sources. I worry that, as expensive as Tamiflu is becoming, counterfeits will become common.

[CoffeeCat]

9. Can't we also purchase it from Canada???

It looks like many sites from Canada sell Tamiflu, also.

However, how do we know that we're getting the real deal, if you order meds online?

[wildeyed]

13. I don't think there is any way to know 100%.

You can verify the packaging, serial numbers, etc. But I doubt that would be too hard to copy.

Here is a link about action taken against fake internet pharmacies. http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2004/NEW01023.html

Remember, if your tamiflu comes in a ziplock baggy, think twice before taking it ;)

[nashville_brook]

10. thanks for the all-natural alternative. i'll definitely get some of that.

i'm concerned about counterfit drugs as well. i'd much rather go thru my healthcare system -- we sure pay enough for it. even then, it will prolly be $100 for both me and hubby. that's a big chunk out of monthly expenses.

[Marlie]

14. Our next door neighbor is a doctor

He just returned from a three week vacation out of the country.
We were just chatting and I asked if he was concerned about the
Avian Flu epidemic. He seemed oblivious and said "don't forget to
get your flu shot". I'm so glad he's not my doctor. I told him
the normal flu shot doesn't work against this strain and he seemed
be to totally disconnected from what has been talked about here
for weeks now but again, he's been out of the country for over three
weeks and guess they may not be talking about this 24/7 overseas.
Maybe they just don't intend to try and scare people to death in
other countries. Just don't know.

[nashville_brook]

28. it's weird b/c i've never been one to get a flu shot

never really trusted them. seems like it too often doesn't work for the flu that spreads that year.

it really bonked us on the head last night that there's a paucity of good information, and if THAT in itself is unsettling. especially given our recent track record with "disasters." jeez -- and with the disasters seeming to never want to end.

i don't want to sound maudlin, i'm just pitching my backyard conversation b/c in an information vacuum, every little bit of "news" is precious.

it's fwiw. no more.

[eShirl]

48. I'm making my own homemade version of Sambucol (TM)

I'm getting dried elderberries cheap from herbalcom.com and making an alcohol (vodka) tincture, as per the instructions posted on the Current Events "Flu Clinic" forum http://www.curevents.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=40 It's an old home remedy, apparently.

So even if this bird flu fizzles out, the elderberry tincture will keep for years, to use against whatever viruses go around. And it's fun making your your own, at least for me.

[wildeyed]

49. Unfortunately, I can't have alcohol.

Luckily the sambucol sounds like it is alcohol free.

too bad, it would be fun to make my own. Give it away as christmas presents, lol.

[nashville_brook]

58. how funny!

christmas presents - a basket of alternative therapies for all my sick friends :)

[wildeyed]

60. As much as that stuff cost in the store,

I am sure it would be most welcome. You could call it Winter Comfort and Healing and make cute cards to attach to the basket with raffia. Martha would approve :)

[nashville_brook]

63. i think martha is getting more hip every year!

;) she's got that new Body and Soul magazine...she's done hard time...she'll be doing recipe cards featuring Tempeh and Seitan very soon.

i can totally see a spread in Living on nice little homemade remedies and aromatics -- packaged in nifty salvaged cigar boxes!

seriously tho, i've always thought she was way more subversive than meets the eye. "womens' ways" have always been about more than just decorating and stain removal. only a century ago we were the first defense against sickness -- that's why there's so much dogma in housekeeping (closed v open windows, etc) -- lives depended on it. there's a great book called Home Comforts that goes into the history and detail of housekeeping -- it sounds awfully "church lady" but it's really fascinating.

[wildeyed]

66. I have that book!

It really is interesting.

[smirkymonkey]

64. Garlic - raw garlic.

I chop it up into smaller pieces and down it w/ mega-doses of vitamin C. It has anti-viral and anti-bacterial properties, along with a host of other health benefits.

I do this every year when I first start feeling symptoms and it seems to nip it in the bud. However you need to rest as well, a lot of people seem to use bed rest as a last resort, but it actually prevents me from getting really sick in the first place.

[nashville_brook]

67. big props to garlic and bed rest!

to turn this around, nothing will get you down quicker than pulling an all-nighter to finish a project or some such stress + sleep deprivation.

the garlic does work best if taken with first symptoms -- otherwise you're just keeping the vampires away :)

[wildeyed]

69. You are so right about the rest.

Illness is your body saying SLOW DOWN! I am much healthier now than when I was younger. Mostly I think this is because I live a more balanced life now. Sleep at night, eat a reasonable diet and moderate exercise. Boring, but it works :)

The garlic/vit C cocktail sounds powerful! I'll bet the germs are terrified when they see that coming down the hatch!

[bananas]

62. which post has the instructions?

There's a lot of posts there,
many discussing whether elderberry extract will make it better or worse,
something about a "cytokine storm"?
Also discussions of where to find elderberries in the wild.
But I didn't find actual instructions for making it.

Here's a merged thread, but I still can't find the instructions:
http://www.curevents.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23922

[pitohui]

16. tamiflu doesn't work for avian flu

sounds like "tipper" is abt as knowledgeable in the area of medicine as she is in the area of music

i realize there is a BIG push being made to sell this worthless drug but even cnn has now been forced to publish the scientist's verdict -- which is that tamiflu don't work, since it was only in the news like TWO DAYS AGO, i would recommend you do your own homework & check the news story for yrself

tamiflu is worthless against avian flu

stop the whispering campaign to sell worthless drugs

i doubt tipper told anyone anything, maybe bill frist did tho

sell the worthless drugs to the freepers, we have real issues to spend our money on

[SaveElmer]

18. Wrong actually...

The guy who came out and said Tamiflu was showing resistance backtracked saying he was only saying that to encourage use of a different drug. Evidence shows Tamiflu does work against this strain!

[nashville_brook]

22. i had seen that too. it's what made me say, "she's really up on this."

i've been followiing this for a while b/c i contract a weird infection in my spine some time ago and i'm real vulnerable to viruses.

[nashville_brook]

19. i am totally with you on having the hairy eyeballs on the drug co's

they are sharks and responsible for a lot of "bad medicine," in the sense you mention. i sat with this post all day precisely b/c i'm not equipped to know The Truth about this. i can only say For What It's Worth, and really what i'd like to see leadership in the shape of measured, common-sense stuff. the absence of such leadership makes it so all we are left with is our collective knowledge compiled in the fire pit. that's not necessarily a bad thing. people are remarkably able to take care of themselves if given half a chance.

also -- after weighing the pros and cons of writing something about our conversation, i figured the real important thing is that we get more "leadership" than what we've seen so far, in Bush recommending a military response.

a poster above suggested an alternative therapy that i'm totally into trying -- and by trying, i mean literally going to the store, getting some and having it *just in case.* if i had the option of a Big Pharma solution, i would want that in my medicine cabinet as well. preferably a generic.

and if not Tamiflu, i'm totally open to suggestions. whichever broad-spectrum anti-viral made by any company or medicine man will do.

[Silverhair]

20. Antibiotics are completely useless against a virus.

However, they may prevent a secondary bacterial infection.

[nashville_brook]

21. anti-viral -- jeez, i've been doing that all day. i'll edit.

[MoonRiver]

23. What about Relenza?

I just read this CNN link and it talks about Relenza as the drug of choice against avian flu. Does anybody out there have more info?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/09/30/birdflu.drugs.reut/

[nashville_brook]

24. that name sounds familiar. there's controversy around the rec'd course

that is getting attention of people in this thread, even. all i can say is that i've stayed informed on this from the very beginning b/c i've had a mysterious infection in my spine and i'm pretty interested in how you get bugs; new bugs; etc.

from the best i can tell, Tamiflu is the first order course. i've read this in international media for months. then, when the story hit the US, there came controversy with rec'd one "brand" of drug over another. so there was backpeddling. brands in medicine aren't like brands iin personal care products. some drugs are better for some things and there's usually few, known, widely accepted therapies.

someone also mention an all-natural therapy that is worth taking a look at. i've had a lot of luck with natural remedies. i couldn't find anyone to treat migraines when i was in college and didn't have insurance anyway, so i relied 100 percent on the health food store and THANK GODdess for them.

[MoonRiver]

25. Thanks but 2 questions.

First what do you mean by the term rec'd. Does it mean recommended? Second what are the natural therapies you are familiar with to combat the avian flu? I take elderberry juice when I feel sick and it definitely helps. Is this the best option for this brand of flu?

[nashville_brook]

26. yes on rec'd and on the 2nd, there's a post higher up that recommends

(rec'ds :) -- the elderberry therapy. it sounds so much nicer than TAMILflu. TAMIL sounds like a military unit.

[MoonRiver]

27. Yes, tamil does sound militaristic. Anyway elderberry is awesome.

I'm taking it right now for a sore throat and aches and pains. I'm hoping they'll be gone by tomorrow or the next day.

[walldude]

29. OMG do you people actually buy this shit?

I'm still waiting for the Killer Bees....

[nashville_brook]

33. i'm not selling anything. just relating an experience and wondering

how things might work in a world where things worked better.

i think people can work things out on their own given the best info. i'm the person who NEVER gets a flu shot. i don't like or trust the healthcare system (mostly b/c i get the same feeling from them). but i do like and trust these people. i had almost put my worry about this to bed before i got this tidbit.

now, i'm not waving my arms and saying "it's the end of the world." i'm saying that people are concerned and telling their closest friends to not to wait -- to just go ahead and prepare.

i think that's good advice any day of the week. i'm really susceptible to infection. thru talking about this i've received some good (and some not so good) advice. one thing that seems prudent is to work on immunity defense in the next few months. i'll be taking more vitamin C and being more cautious around surfaces. i'll be a bit more of a stickler about people washing their hands when they come into the house. you know -- just good sense.

good luck with those bees :)

[triguy46]

47. This seems like the Y2K variant of the month... n/t

[nashville_brook]

52. that was my initial response response too, but after a lot of research

i'm leaning toward a better-safe-sorry approach.

something i don't understand: we have modern medicine that addresses flu. what's so wrong with makiing that widely available NOW, before it's an epidemic. that just seems prudent.

[triguy46]

53. I know this is an unpopular response...

and it doesn't exactly play into any conspiracy theory, or endorse the * emasculation of either the CDC or FDA...

My best response would be that it is not good public health medicine. Epidemiology is a science after all, and its been around for 150 years. I'm unaware of any similar approach, mass distribution of a medication in anticipation of a disease that has yet to show a human to human vector.

This is not to be confused with mass vaccinations a very different issue altogether.

Hell, tamiflu is great, but we can't get people to wash their frickin hands in this country...

[nashville_brook]

65. i taught universal precautions among other mundane healthcare

procedures way back in grad school. i was teaching 2nd year med students in the family practice track.

according to the social research we used at the time -- it might be different now -- doctors were the worst offenders in the family practice environment regarding washing hands. nurses had much higher rates of good hygiene. another interesting tidbit is that men have lower rates of hand-washing than women. so, male doctors were the worst subgroup

since then i've been very aware of hand washing in social environments -- restaurants, at work, pitstops on road trips. i can't help it. i just notice it now. it's extremely rare that i notice a woman not wash her hands. it's been about 10 years since grad school and i've maybe noticed a handful (yuk yuk) of women not wash their hands in a social environment (bars notwithstanding). often in rest stops i notice the best hygiene with women actually using paper towels to open the door upon leaving.

the study went on to discuss differences in social v private habits. people are more likely to skip the ritual at home.

so totally watch yourself when visiting a male doctor at home! :)

[nashville_brook]

35. BIRD FLU GENERICS: Relenza, Symmetrel, Flumadine + infection MAP

Sweden Adds Amantadine to Pandemic Flu Stockpile
http://www.recombinomics.com/News/08240504/Sweden_Flu_Stockpile.html

Recombinomics Commentary
August 24, 2005

Sweden, on the other hand, has purchased only 345,000 doses of Tamiflu, of which 125,000 doses is reserved for people with important social functions, such as police officers and lawmakers. The Swedish order will also include 200,000 doses of amantadine, another antiviral marketed as Symmetrel and manufactured by Endo Pharmaceuticals Holdings Inc.(ENDP) of Chadds Ford Pa.

The above comment suggest European countries are looking toward the amantadines to bolster their flu pandemic stockpiles. The latest sequence data for southeast Asia indicates that all isolates from Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Malaysia are amantadine resistant, so Tamilflu ® and Relenza ® are the only available antivirals for that version of H5N1.

(snip)

The amantadines have been approved for some time and therefore are off-patent and available from generic drug manufacturers. As noted above amantadine is sold by Endo Pharmaceuticals under the brand name Symmetrel ®. Similarly, rimantadine is sold under the brand name Flumadine ®, by Forrest Labs, Both of these drugs are approved for prophylactic use to prevent influenza. They are also approved for treatment. Because they are off-patent and available from generic drug manufacturers, the supply is greater and cost lower than the more recently developed drugs, Tamiflu ® and Relenza ®, which target the NA protein.

As H5N1 wild bird flu approaches Europe (see map), interest in available antivirals should increase.

[Rainscents]

39. You can also use OSCILLOCOCCINUM for first sign of flu!

I use three things when I first come down with flu or cold and always keep it on hands...

1) Oscillococcinum - For Flu

2) Black Elderberry Extract (Original Syrup) - For flu and cold.

3) Ultimate Immunity - This also boost immunity so that, your body can fight off Virus and Bataria infection.

Most important, I take Thymulus all year around. This stuff boost T-cell in your body so that your immunity system is in top notch all year around!

You can find informations about these products online and read up about it.

It's obvious, our government don't want us to have TamiFlu so, we are left with defending our own health!

[nashville_brook]

42. thank you! this is great info. i won't feel so dumb in the natural foods

store -- altho, i've noticed that the folks in the "healing" section are always the most helpful on the planet. they really take the time to help.

but having specific names of products helps bunches!

[Rainscents]

43. Your welcome! You can PM me anytime if you need to know informations

regarding health product! I learn a lot through reading and my homeopathy Dr's due to my own illness 15 years ago.

[nashville_brook]

68. thank you! i might take you up on that.

if you know of any good books on basic home health that might be a good place for me to start. i'm not totally clueless -- it's just been a while since i've had to use this part of my brain. before i had insurance, the health food store was the closest thing to a doctor that i had access to.

[wildeyed]

44. You know what has done more to improve my immune system

than anything? Regular, gentle yoga practice. Sounds hokey, I know. But it is working for me. I started after my second child to reduce stress. I have not been seriously ill since.

Another thing that seems to help is a neti pot. A neti pot is a small teapot like thing you use to pour warm salt water into one nostril as it drains out the other. Sounds freaky, but it is common practice in India. I use a zinc and golden seal additive in the pot when I fell a cold coming on, and it seems to nip it in the bud.

Does anyone know if zinc lozenges are effective against flu? I know that there have been trials showing its effectiveness against the common cold, but I have not heard whether it works against the flu.

[nashville_brook]

51. not hokey at all -- i've just started a gentle practice.

i call it dog yoga b/c it's not much more involved than the stretches my do 30 times a day. i think it makes perfect sense that stretching and moving the body would wake up our various fluid-based systems. i can tell a big difference in my general well-being with the addition of the dog yoga. :)

i've seen the neti pots -- people swear by them. interesting therapy.

[Rainscents]

70. Thanks for the info! I love yoga!

Yes, Zink Lozengels help with sore throat, flu and cold! I forgot about this! I take extra zink supplement when I come down with cold, flu and sore throat.

[jmatthan]

40. Could you explain your MAP, please!

You will see that I posted photos of dead sea gulls I came across here in the near-Arctic (just a little to the South-west of Murmansk).

http://jmatthan.blogspot.com/2005/09/dead-birds-in-oulu.html

Tens of such birds have been seen lying around our town. Just yesterday, I saw one on the side of our main E4 highway! (Could not take a photograph)

The Finns have reserved the stocks of possible medicine for "their entire population" in case the virus mutates and can infect humans.

This is an article from Finland's Main newspaper which appeared on 29th September 2005:

"Finland prepares to vaccinate entire population against avian flu"

http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/article/Finland+prepares+to+vaccinate+entire+population+against+avian+flu+%0D%0A/1101981114375

We shouted here, forcing the Government to take steps in the interests of the people.

Not calling in the military!

My God, what a bunch of stupid and power-mad politicians you have in your country.

[nashville_brook]

41. the map is the one referred to in the article in the last line

if you click on the link for the article, the word "map" is a hyperlink to another page that fully explains the map.

it breaks down the recent outbreaks.

and yes, we do have some real scary folks running things here.

in addition to my interest in this that i stated a few times about -- i'm also just starting to learn more about bird watching/counting of which i subscribe to the tennessee birders list. it's the start of the migratory season, so there's lots of activity. i'll post in a relevant forum if something creepy pops up. so far this year we've seen scattered reports of wire downings which is common (and quite sad), and some west nile. it's on the back of everyone's mind like how cattle ranchers have to, but don't want to know about mad cow. i guess what i'm saying is the US imo is in pre-consciousness mode.

birders' lists are great sources for this kind of info -- maybe search for birdwaters in your area.

[triguy46]

46. Interesting views of health care, disease, doctors

The first thing that jumped out at me were the expectations that because we have talked with friends, therefore raised our knowledge level about bird flu, we should demand Tamiflu, and if our doc won't prescribe it, go to another. This sounds like self diagnosis, treatment. You can't take tamiflu all the time. It has to be taken within a very short time of being diagnosed. There are docs that will write whatever you want, (the so called good docs), and docs that prescribe based on examination and treatment, who are now the bad guys. Interesting. This reminds me of the antrax days where people were self adminsitering cipro, ignoring the risks and side effects. No matter what you may think you know, if you ain't go the initials behind your name, you're prob not very good at it.

SEcond, being in the business, good luck finding tamiflu. it is becomings scarce, secondary to the feds and brits buying millions of doses, and scared public scaring their docs and trying to stockpile.

Third, Where is the human to human vector? There are all sorts of
viruses out there in animals, a few will affect humans who come in contact, but not all, and even fewer that mutate to be human to human. It can here, and Ifeel the flames, 'you don't know its not gonna happen.' Is our memory so short we cannot remember SARS and SARS hysteria?
There is so much that 'can' happen, earthquakes, asteroids, tsunamis, floods, hurricanes...Buy a weeks worth of soup, a couple cases of water, tape your windows shut and hunker down...

If you want to worry about a real disease that is in your community now, and for which there is very, very limited treatment, ask your doc or public health nurse about methicillin resistant staph aureus, (MRSA). Do you like draining, pus filled open wounds? Flesh eating bacteria? Resistant to antibiotic therapy. Its here, and its real, and people should be worried about it but rather deal with the current bird flu scare.

[nashville_brook]

50. i'm very aware of the proper use of tamilflu

and have plenty of opportunity for bird vectors with dogs and yard that just in recent days has attracted hundreds of migrating birds in addition to our residents.

there IS plenty of bad info out there about bird flu. lots of conflicting info. that's the lion's share of my critique -- that calling out the gaurd isn't a credible response. we need real information. otherwise we are reduced to combining our research and sharing our info as best we can. it's in that spirit that i offer my "gossip."

as to human-to-human vectors -- in any flu outbreak we watch and wait for the jump from animal to human transmission TO human-to-human transmission. any flu outbreak starts with this waiting period. the flu gene protein called PB2 is associated with the virus adapting to mammal transmission. A single change in this gene makes H5N1 extremely deadly to mice. This change in PB2 was seen in six of the seven H5N1 viruses spreading among captive tigers in Thailand. The same change popped up in the only human to die during an outbreak of another bird flu, H7N7, in the Netherlands. And it's present in recent H5N1 viruses from humans in Vietnam and Thailand and from wild birds in China.

as to self-diagnosis -- i plead totally GUILTY. i get 10 minutes with my harried doc twice a year. i believe it's my responsibility to self-diagnose. if not me, who? are we such a consumer society that we can't care for ourselves? must we pay a "professional" and trust our life to them with no critical reflection?

since you are "in the business," doesn't it interest you that this anti-viral is becoming rare? do you know why? it's not b/c of people like me. it's b/c of whole GOVERNMENTS ordering for their decision-makers to preserve continuity of government in the case of an outbreak. given that europe is preparing in this manner, i'm taking notice.

thanks for the long list of straw men, but i'm not predicting an end of the world scenario -- i'm just saying we have methods of fighting a flu. we don't need to call in the military. we need to call the pharmacey. we need information and education. we aren't so stupid that we can't read the directions on a medication and take them accordingly.

we haven't had a pandemic in 37 years. that's a life-time. how old are you? i'm 39 -- i was raised by my grandparents who lost family in the 1918 pandemic. they were terrified of the Swine Flu in the 70s. my father had just had "open heart surgery" as they called it back then. they kept me out of school. luckily mother (grandmother) caught it and my recoverinng father did not. he would have surely died. my point here is that i have life-experience that gives me a slightly different perspective on this than most folks my age who were raised by their biological parents. this generational knowledge is nearly gone. most of folks think the flu is just an excuse to watch DVDs and lay out of work. historically that's not always been the case.

[triguy46]

54. I agree with this explaination, thanks...

We for sure need some more effective method than tanks in the streets of Overland Park Kansas.

[wildeyed]

56. My fear is that avian flu will happen,

our government will be totally unprepared and I will watch my children die the way we watched those people in NOLA die. From completely preventable problems. Pre-Katrina, I would not have imagined that the US government would be unable to help us in a health emergency. Aren't we the richest and one of the most innovative country in the world? But BushCo exceeds my expectations of suckiness every single time. Past performance is the best predictor of future performance.

What convinces me to take this seriously is UK and AU have enough Tamiflu stockpiled for something like 35% of their population. That is a significant investment. They must feel that there is some chance of a pandemic.

[nashville_brook]

57. i am totally on your wavelength -- "previous responses"

that's the hitch for me and that was the tone of the gossip -- that nothing is being done now, when prevention has a chance of taking root.

also -- the ability to think critically doesn't always mean going left when everyone else is going right. often, life is ambiguous. often there's bits of truth here and there instead of in one convenient place.

lastly -- our slavish trust that our healthcare providers will take care of us is simply misplaced. healthcare providers need our active participation in our well-being. if there is ever to be true liberation from our consumerist trap, healthcare will become primary area of self-reliance. this is almost entirely by definition. we either OWN our bodies and take responsibility for our health OR we totally hand it over to strangers, pay our co-pay, and fall back into that warm, deep slumber.

[wildeyed]

61. I have great healthcare providers.

I have faith in both their technical abilities and their compassion as human beings. But I take final responsibility for my health and the health of my children. Docs can say whatever they want, but if something goes wrong, I will be the one to live with the results, not them.

If the bird flu comes, I have no doubt that my healthcare providers will want to help and be happy to prescribe tamiflu or whatever else is appropriate. I just don't think there will be any to prescribe, or if there is, the distribution will be massively screwed up a la Katrina. It is important to begin taking anti-virals as soon as symptoms appear.

I really hope I am wrong about these things. I hope bird flu never happens or if it does, our government functions smoothly and efficiently. But I just don't trust them.

[Rainscents]

71. I know exactly what you mean.

I also feel the same and I am more afraid of our government not protecting us when this flu ever break out. Because of what is going on with our government, I decide, I am going to protect myself by doing something about it.
I have been stocking up on supplements, foods (cans, rice and beans), bottle waters, water filter system, mask and ruber gloves.

[YouthInAsia]

55. GAS MASKS. I've tons o' gas masks. And the GOOD ONES.

[nashville_brook]

72. ...