How many DUers would be able to survive

[survivor999]

if civilization came to a sudden end?... Say, that the only life possible were somewhere in the Midwest, far from cities, without gas and electricity... How many would have the skills to cover the essentials: knowing what plants to eat, knowing how to grow stuff, basic construction etc etc?... What percentage of the population would be totally clueless and could not adapt?

[yurbud]

1. I wouldn't want to be in the Midwest in that condition.

better on the coasts or mountains, where there is at least some wilderness to hide in and plants and animals to eat.

[BiggJawn]

6. The Coasts?

Yeah, lots of abandonned ofice buildings to hide in and lots of rats and weeds to eat.

No thanks, I'll take my chances out here where they actually GROW stuff to eat, not wait for the trucks to haul it in...

[cally]

28. Let's not turn this into a region bashing

I know they grow food in the midwest but Californians do, also.

[BiggJawn]

82. But they don't grow food in NYC.

There's more to the midwest than miles of nothing and old trailers .

[Retrograde]

151. California depends on imported water

"I know they grow food in the midwest but Californians do, also."

Unless seasonal rainfall patterns change dramatically - possible with global climate change - much of California, especially the parts currently devoted to agriculture, gets no rain from rough May through October. Even then, it gets maybe 20" (San Francisco, which is relatively wet) or less. The reason that California agriculture does so well is because water is brought from the mountains and the Sacramento river delta to farms in the central valley and other areas. No civilization = no maintenance of reservoirs, canals and levees = no agriculture.

[SammyWinstonJack]

50. The coasts doesn't grow stuff? Are you kidding me? nt

California grows a lot of produce.

[BiggJawn]

And we don't have "plants and animals to eat" in the midwest?

I don't see anybody chastising the stupid statement that spawned MY stupid statement....

I'll take my chances in the Midwest, thankee...

[Toots]

112. They have a saying where I grew up.."When the tide is out the table is set

Anyone living on the coast would have plenty to eat. they may not be familiar with the food but it is there. there is more food by far in the ocean than on all the land...

[BiggJawn]

135. Perhaps.

I'm thinking of ALL the people who flock to the coasts, who have to do without with the un-appetizing garbage we would have shipped from the midwest to supplement what the tide throws up on the table, then factor in the decline in fishery stocks that is already happening, combined with ALL those people trying to get a place at that table that the tide just set... It ain't gonna be Utopia, not by a damn sight.

That's OK, folks. you just go ahead and keep thinking that "Flyoverland" is just a barren waste with nothing to eat, populated by rednecks who are too busy shooting each other for their "chaw" to bother to grow anything.

Maybe if I can figured out how to haul it to you, I'll bring you a load of corn and maybe some bacon...

[SoCalDem]

136. Um..California does grow stuff...and we also have access to the sea

:) I have a spare bonus room to rent out :) 800 sq ft..carpeted, corner windows, southern exposure:)

[thinkingwoman]

7. have you ever been to the midwest?

you think we don't have any wilderness to hide in or plants or animals to eat out here in the great space between the coasts?

For crying out loud that is ridiculous.

[skooooo]

38. Right, there are no plants in the midwest...

:wtf:

[yurbud]

44. Is a farmer going to let me grab his corn and pigs?

If you already own land, it could be okay.

[skooooo]

90. Would they let you do this anywhere?

What does this have to do with the midwest?

[yurbud]

91. most of the land is taken. here in the west, some isn't

[HereSince1628]

108. You have my permission to colonize the empty quarter as you plan

I don't think a total collapse of civilization is coming.

I think you are a bit wrong on nothing available growing wild or at least without cultivation in the midwest.

The following is an off the top of my head list of edible plants either natural or growing as volunteers in odd corners, fence rows, woodlot etc that I have collected on my place in SE Wisconsin which is nothing special as hobby farms go between Milwaukee and Madison (about 60 acres of cropland, 5 of wet meadow with no permanent surface water, and about 10 acres of scrubby Oak-Hickory woodlot.

You will probably recognize most of these...

Apples...both johnathan-like and crab apples
Asparagus (in abundance in fence rows)
Blackberries
Butternut
Day lilies
Dandelion
Dill
Echinacea
Gensing
Grapes
Hickory nuts
Hops
Jeruselum Artichoke
Maple(as in syrup)
Mulberry
Morels
Nettle
Plaintain (as in the lawn weed)
Rosehip
Spearmint
Onion
Tree scale mushrooms
Walnuts
Willow
Puffballs
Strawberries

I am sure there are more but I've never been seriously into foraging.

The list of animals legal to hunt or animal products that occur with regularity...
Canada Goose
Cottontail Rabbit
Deer
Gray Squirrel
Honey
Mallard Duck
Pheasant
Raccoon
Turkey

[HeeBGBz]

66. I'm in the midwest

We have mountains, wilderness, plants and animals a plenty.

I'm already settling in here, winterizing to the best of my ability and holed up for the Next Big Thang.

[triguy46]

128. I guess we could argue "midwest"

Northern missouri, illinois, indiana, ohio, through the NE would work.

Kansas and nebraska would be tough. Remember, we did settle this country about 125 years with essentially no help for the settlers. Hit the ground in early spring, throw up a shelter, break the sod, hope for a quick crop, cut wood, hunt game, grow a garden and hope for the freakin best before winter.

The absolute worst place to be is where there is no water, e.g. Phoenix.
The next, anywhere there are millions of hungry and thirsty people.

I think I could last for a while in my rural Oklahoma farmstead. tough, but doable.

[donheld]

143. Utter insanity!

:spank: Our Native American ancestors seemed to do quite well in all areas of the country. I know we are not as smart as they were, but still we could learn to survive as they did.

[tocqueville]

2. the main problem would be to have to deal with a bunch of

armed bible-nuts... at least for me

[survivor999]

5. That IS a scary scenario... Convert or BLAM!

[Terran]

35. The Coasts have plenty of armed nuts too

The only diff is maybe they're not pushing the bible down your throat at gunpoint. Most of America has its little pecentage of nuts. For me, I spent the first half of my life in California and have lived in Missouri for 11 years, and I think I'd be a lot safer here than there, frankly.

[dogfacedboy]

102. I live in the Midwest. I don't fear the armed bible nuts.

There are a lot of people here with common sense. There are more people here who ARE NOT bible nuts. Most people here are armed. I believe that my arms will be needed for two things: hunting and warding off those who would steal my belongings.

I think the biggest problem in this scenario would be the availability of drinking water. I can grow food, hunt for food, and build shelter.

[triguy46]

129. In this scenario, every inhabitant of a city would be an enemy. nt

[SteppingRazor]

3. In other words, how many are gun owners?

In a world without laws or rules, it's a simple matter to just steal from the more knowledgable, isn't it?

I'm not advocating this, mind you, just pointing it out.

Personally, I'm an Eagle Scout and a diehard outdoorsman, so I'd be better off than most.

[survivor999]

9. Very good point... Used to be like that in the Wild West...

I suppose they need lots of ammo too, though :)

[triguy46]

131. The first few years would be anarchy.

If you buy into the survivalist nightmare, you have to be prepared to defend yourself. There will be few friends and allies among the millions starving to death and looting all they can find. There are enough nightmare end of world books and movies out there to flesh this out.
They ain't gonna sit in their trophy house in suburbia and starve quietly.

[SmileyBoy]

4. I'm afraid I would be clueless.

I can barely fix myself a spaghetti dinner, let alone grow my own crops. I can barely shoot a bow and arrow, let alone hunt for my own food. I have never even TOUCHED a firearm in my entire LIFE. Give me a gun, and I would have NO IDEA on how to use it. All I know is that you pull a trigger. I have tons of technological skill (computers, etc.), but not much skills on basic survival (using camping equipment, building fires, etc)

I suppose if something happened, I could shack up with one of my farmer friends (I have a few friends who were raised on farms), and we could ride it out with my friend's knowledge.

I have lived a pretty sheltered, urban technological life, and that worries me sometime.

[BiggJawn]

12. You could figure out how to get some kind of technology working.

And your country-boy friends could take care of scrounging up eats.

Out where I live, the biggest problem would be all the crowds of aimless wanderers going "So when are we gonna get to watch Teeeeeeeeeee-Veeeeeeeeee agin?"

[Silverhair]

8. More complex than that.

If you have the seeds, the tools, and the knowledge, it still takes time for the harvest to come in. You have to eat until then.

[Piperay]

10. Not me

my idea of roughing it is not having room service. :shrug: :-(

[abluelady]

21. I'm With You.

After about 72 hours, I would do like the elderly Indians do and go out to the woods, find a soft piece of ground and lay down to die. I know my limitations!

[DBoon]

33. my idea of the rugged life

is being more than 5 miles from the nearest sushi bar

[Hardrada]

64. My idea is going shoeless

on the hotel carpet. I guess I'm really doomed!

[SoCalDem]

137. When we ended up with 3 sons, I told my husband

NO CAMPING.. If you and the boys want to camp, you can drop me off at the closest Hilton on your way out of town, and pick me up on the way home :)

[Kipling]

11. I might survive for a while.

I can throw stuff pretty hard and accurately thanks to regular cricket practice, so I could kill a few birds. I'm good at fishing. I learnt how to start a fire with sticks. When it comes to plants, I'd be screwed. Berries, mushrooms, nuts and fruit are the only edible things I can distinguish.

[survivor999]

14. I'd have to join a community to survive...

I'd have to learn lots of things from scratch. I grew up in farmland, but I never paid much attention, was too busy reading books and playing with gadgets...

[sniffa]

13. i have no quaLms with resorting to cannibaLism

:9

[A Simple Game]

30. Well as long as you have to get rid of the bad guys,

why let them go to waste?

[elehhhhna]

92. lmao sniffa

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SmileyBoy]

17. Wow... That's a REALLY nice thing to say...

About over one-third of the population of the US, tens of millions of hard-working people, of whom a very small minority are "fundie fuckwits".

I say, have you ever even ventured outside of 20 miles from a coastline??

[DS1]

29. Oh yes, I've spent plenty of time all over the country

and I still choose to live within 50 miles of the coast. And don't even get me started on the bible-belt- that place is nothing but hypocrisy

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terran]

37. Yep. And speaking without thinking will get one killed

in the future under discussion here.

[Ksec]

16. I would.

Ive grown up in the woods, hunting and fishing. I pride myself on knowing most of the flora and fauna of this area.This afternoon I was looking for early fall mushrooms (edible, found pine boletes) My only problem would be winter, the looonng winter. Building shelter would be the most important thing you would have to do. Then securing a water source. Anyway I believe I have enough education to be able to survive.

[welshTerrier2]

18. as long as i have DU and C-Span ...

otherwise, things wouldn't look too good ...

water, and maybe fish might work for a while ... heat? pretty tough ... i live near a forest so burning wood might be possible to survive the winter ...

and we have a really good vegetarian Indian place a few miles away ...

well, it would be pretty damned tough ...

[Cleita]

19. There are two good works of fiction out there in

which the authors imagine how a few survivors of a plague that kills most of humanity manage to survive. The first is "Earth Abides" by George R. Stewart, (http://www.lostbooks.org/reviews/1998-06-11-1.html) and "The Stand" by Stephen King who borrowed the idea from the Stewart book.

[anitar1]

132. Earth Abides is a great book. I read it 35 years ago and recently

reread it. Really food for thought.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

146. Have you read

"Alas, Babylon" by Pat Frank (1959)? It shows how some people pull together (and some don't) to survive in Florida after a nuclear attack. I'd never heard of "Earth Abides." Will see if it's in the library. Thanks.

[kestrel91316]

20. Best reference book in the world for producing your own food and

getting by without technology: Carla Emery's Encyclopedia of Country Living.

Don't leave civilization without it.

[Mojorabbit]

81. I have that book

and it is wonderful. I know scads of medicinal wild plants and edible weeds. My husband is great with a bow for hunting. I live in Florida and can fish, dig for clams, dive for lobster, etc. Lots of citrus trees. I grow an edible landscape and live on a clean lake. I think I could do ok. I am also a great shot if defense becomes a problem.

[survivor999]

83. I'll get the book...

[Tsiyu]

127. I loaned mine to a neighbor months ago

She refuses to give it back LOL.

She's a great lady so I forgive her, but I'm thinking of buying the latest edition - has some updated resources - and letting her keep my old one for a Christmas present...

[MojoXN]

22. I'd be fine.

MojoXN

[TalkingDog]

23. self solving problem

The ones that don't adapt, die. I'd say around 40%; this includes those that fall sick, those that starve and those that are killed by roving bands of looters. After that, the amount of food available in the short term almost doubles (as there are nearly half as many people to eat it) This gives every body else time to learn even the most basic growing and gathering skills.

The ones that know how to build and grow would come to form alliances or tribes. For instance, my husband can build (or figure out how to build) just about anything, but is not really adept at woodworking without powertools. However...we know people who are. I have a good grasp of using natural herbs for healing and gathering some wild food and herbs, but we don't hunt. Then again, we know people who do. I garden. I can food. We live next to a rather large man-made lake, where water and fish are plentiful. We have already discussed, hypothetically, what happens when the "collapse" comes with the people who have the skills and tools we lack. We are networking in a very abstract and casual way.

Will it come to that? I'd say chances are incredibly slim. But it is better to at least have some sort of plan in place. Kinda' like a fire escape plan for your home. You'll probably never have a fire. And if a fire does happen you probably won't follow the plan exactly as discussed, but at least you will have prepared for some sort of worst-case scenario.

And that's about all you can do.

[hyphenate]

25. I couldn't live without the internet

or heat, or the pursuit of knowledge, or mental stimulation, or some other method of keeping me WANTING to survive. Might as well aim a .22 revolver into my mouth and pull the trigger. It would be far quicker than living without some real hope of a future. I'm not a survivalist, and I don't have the temperament to be one.

[A Simple Game]

31. If we are going to be serious about this,

I have one thing to say.

Don't use a 22, chances are you will only hurt yourself. If you must use a 22, you can aim for the ear, that's how the mob does it. bullet goes in and bounces around, makes pudding of the brain.

[hyphenate]

40. I'm not really good about guns, actually

so poison would likely be tried first. And yes, that is in all seriousness. Personally, I doubt I would survive the first wave. My heart isn't exactly in the best of shape.

[A Simple Game]

53. In all seriousness,

I don't think we need to worry about it.

I know about the heart, had a quad bypass in late May.

[Rex]

26. Most DUers would survive - we 've prepared for Operation Clusterfuck.

We sell field manuals in the lounge. I think the newest one is "80 Ways To Cook A Beaver".

[Flying Dream Blues]

76. will you be in my commune and provide the humor? :) nt

[Rex]

77. For the low, low fee of one turnip

maybe some toilet paper (new world currency) I will be happy to.

[Flying Dream Blues]

79. Excellent...turnips sound easy enough. Anything that grows

underground seems very sporting to me.

BTW, I don't mean to undermine the purpose of this thread, because I honestly get worried and feel like I should be at least trying to read up on how to do things. But I know should this happen, I will also be relying quite a bit on my sense of humor!

[Raksha]

27. Well, I can grow tomatoes and I've done a little canning...

...other than that, I'd be pretty much clueless. I'd like to learn, though. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I have a feeling I'm not alone.

[Cats Against Frist]

32. If I could get ahold of a full tank of gas

I could drive to my parents' house. Many of my relatives in rural Illinois are farmers, with lots of cows and lots of guns, who also know how to hunt, grow -- lots still have well water. If I couldn't get there, though, I'd be dead in five minutes...

And, if I were in Seattle (where I live part-time), I don't know what the hell I'd do. Try to get home, I guess.

[newswolf56]

34. I lived in deep country a third of my life and have all the skills:

carpentry and shelter-building, gardening, hunting, fishing, trapping, handloading, use of muzzle-loaders and other primitive weapons, cooking on a wood-burning range (or over an open fire), starting fire with flint and steel, edible plants, use of primitive tools: crosscut saw, buck saw, adze, hole auger, gasoline-free garden implements (to the extent I have cleared, dug and cultivated gardens as large as 60x40 feet with hand tools only).

But thanks to a huge (and eventually fatal) reversal a year ago -- the worst and most ruinous of my life -- I am back in a city forever, this for the first time since the mid-1980s, and all my rural skill is now therefore totally worthless: "useless and pointless knowledge." Moreover my rural-living tools are all gone too (no way to store them after I was forced to move), and with gasoline so expensive, there is in any case no way to escape the city in the event of a real disaster. And even if escape were possible, the eco-extremists who run the state Department of Fish and Wildlife have permanently closed and gated all the back-country access roads 10-20 miles before real wilderness begins, thereby limiting access only to those who can afford horses -- in other words, only the very rich; the gates themselves are built strongly enough to withstand anything short of artillery fire. So the wilderness is not an option, which means I am doomed. After New Orleans, I recognize that as an elderly person, I will be among the first slain as prey when the street gangs take over. Grim reality, not at all fun to live with, but inescapable truth nevertheless.

[Coyote_Bandit]

36. Well....

despite 10 years of college, 3 graduate degrees and 2 professional licenses I can't find a paying job here in the midwest. But I have survival skills.

I grew up in a rural area. I can and do garden. I can fish. I know how to dress and prepare game. I know how to cure meat. I can pluck a chicken. I can milk a cow - by hand. I know how to churn butter. I'm comfortable with livestock. I know how to make my own wine and spirits. I can and do cook from scratch. I know howto can fruits and vegetables and how to prepare dried foods. I once had family that lived in a very remote area which was at least 3 miles from the nearest neighbor. I am familiar with the critters that live in virgin forest - and various creekbeds and waterways. I have some context in which I understand no airconditioning, heating with only a wood stove - and using an outhouse. I can entertain myself without relying on electronics. I have some basic construction and building knowledge but few tools - and certainly very few tools that function without electrical power or batteries.

I guess when civilization comes to an end I will finally have some marketable skills.

[Ilsa]

39. Some of us have suggested a Survivalist forum for

passing on good information about how to get by.

[MojoXN]

41. THAT is an excellent idea.

I'd wager that more than a few DU'ers have a keen interest in survivalism. Why should those of us who share this interest have to clutter GD with our posts? Mods, take note! We NEED a survivalism forum!

MojoXN

[Angry Girl]

57. Not a bad idea at all.

Everybody should know how to make a solar water still. It's ludicrous that anyone, even in the desert, should die for lack of water.

Nightweed's Hurricane Katrina Aid Organizations

[survivor999]

58. I don't know how to make a solar water still!!!! We need the new forum!

:)

[Angry Girl]

61. How to make a Solar Water Still!

Fortunately, there is an emergency survival technique for gathering water from our driest deserts during their most brutal seasons. It is commonly known as the Solar Still. One of the most significant survival tools created in the last 40 years. the Solar Still was developed by two physicians working for the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Results of extensive testing in the Arizona deserts by the U.S. Air Force proved that when properly assembled, the still can save your life.

The Solar Still functions under the general principle of the "greenhouse effect". Solar energy heats the ground by passing through a clear plastic barrier. Moisture from the soil then evaporates, rises and condenses on the underside of the plastic barrier above.

The still also has the ability to purify tainted water. In fact, it condenses pure water from just about anything. Even urine will produce clean, drinkable water. (CAUTION: One fluid never to be used is radiator fluid, as its toxins will vaporize and poison the water.)
Materials

There are only 2 essential components to constructing the Solar Still -- a container to catch the water and a 6 x 6-footsheet of clear plastic. A shovel or trowel, a length of plastic tube and tape are all optional.

....

Full article here:
http://www.desertusa.com/mag98/dec/stories/water.html

More complex one for your home for $150 (~ 3 gals/day in summer, 1.5 gal. in winter)
http://www.i4at.org/surv/sstill.htm

[survivor999]

69. Holy smokes! This is awesome... I had no idea n/t

[Raksha]

125. Angry Girl, thanks for the solar still info.

I just printed out the instructions for the temporary one and bookmarked the permanent one.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

42. ZERO desire to "survive" under that scenario

My idea of roughing it is when there's no Starbucks within a 50 mile radius.

[Ready4Change]

43. 60% die off. 20% plantation workers. 10% independant survivors.

Just my guesses, assuming gas and electricity go off suddenly, with no warning.

If there's more warning, there's more time to get people prepped. However, I still only give us +10 to +20% changes to my numbers above at max.

[survivor999]

47. Wow! 60% die off... That's a lot of people...

I'm not sure... I doubt people would just sit and die of starvation... But they might kill each other competing for few resources, if they don't know how to produce new ones... It seems to me that would be a scenario in which the rich would get killed by mobs, if they try to hold on to their wealth (say, land) and not share it...

[Ready4Change]

72. Wouldn't be a pretty couple of years.

Preserved food stockpiles would run out fast, as most modern farms are highly gas/electricity dependant. The Amish and Mennonites are probably the most skilled Americans in non-mechanized farming today. However, how well could they provide for millions, nay, hundreds of millions of unskilled urban dwellers? And, if/when that failed, how well could those skilled people survive the rioters desperate for food?

It'll be rare locations that both have the knowlege to continue, and also manage to escape destruction from the masses who DON'T have that knowlege.

Just one of many reasons developing alternatives to the petroleum energy economy is so vital.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

45. I live in Northern Fl

with shallow water wells, long crop seasons and mild winters. We have eight acres of fertile soil But I share it with a heck of a lot of vermin. I think we'd be okay for a while, with gardens and chickens and such, but we are getting older and eventually we'd get sick..at least that is what I would imagine.

[newswolf56]

55. The main key to vegetable gardening without insecticides...

is encouraging the wild bird population to bug-forage in your gardens. This means planting birdseed crops (sunflowers are superb and beautiful too); properly mulching corn stalks and other vegetable waste in the fall (birds love the seeds and bugs); building and hanging substantial numbers of bird houses, setting up bird feeders to encourage the birds to visit regularly, using fake owls to discourage hawks from preying on the lesser birds -- and above all else, eliminating feral cats (and strictly controlling pet cats): the domestic housecat, feral or not, is by a nearly incalculable magnitude the worst wild-bird killer in America: a single cat may kill as many as a half-dozen birds a day. So attracted and protected, wild birds eliminated ALL need for insecticides from my gardens. This was actual experience, though limited to the Pacific Northwest.

But I have read this works equally well elsewhere, also eliminating insect-borne blights -- even (supposedly) in environments as insect-intense as the South, where the summer night is so rowdy with insect-noise the din actually keeps outlanders awake.

[survivor999]

68. This makes sense... n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

87. I see a LOT of purple martin gourds around here

but have never put any up. That might be a good project to start. I am over cats. I had them for years and they went their way. I don't want them outside with the birds and I don't want to change boxes, alhtough they are very cool beasties.

[FlaGranny]

98. You don't want to control

cats TOO much. They also kill rats and mice, and other spoilers of many food crops, and carriers of plague.

[put out]

46. I live in the Midwest. If all goes down the tubes, here you go.

I have enough room for maybe 12 people. I have two functional fireplaces. I have a garden; that would have to be better. I know how to preserve some food. If someone had a firearm, kill a deer or a turkey. Without the traffic and the lights, they will be all over the place; they are already. I have some big trees on their way out, they would be our fuel because we have axes and all that. We have a pretty good creek within walking distance. That's water, boiled for drinking and cooking, and warmed for bathing, then getting some clothes clean. I have a big turkey fryer with fuel. That's 15 gallons or so of boiling water, and that will make a lot of stew. We can make crackers in a box with some tinfoil if we tip it to the fire. I have a sewing machine, treadle. All that needs is some grease and for me to read the directions better. I have thread, and lots of fabric. I could make warm clothes.

If things get grim, do you all in the Kansas City area know about the caves off 435 on the Missouri side? Lovely, amazing, temperature constant, full of all kinds of resources, and enormous. We bring it all there, cooperate, and we'll be just fine.

Who's afraid of the Midwest?

[survivor999]

48. Hey! I'll come down there any time!!!

Don't be surprised if we all show up when the sh*t hits the fan :)

[put out]

59. Well, come on down! You're welcome at my place.

When we run out of stuff here, those caves will be the place to go.

It sounds like I'm kidding. There are office complexes, warehouses, storage units, semi-trucks going in and out, fuel, water, stored food...all in those caves. And they are close to a river.

I'll save you a sleeping bag, friend.

[survivor999]

65. Wooh Hoooo! You made me feel better... Serious...

Cities can be damn lonely places...

[HeeBGBz]

73. I'm south of you, near Branson. We have Underground too.

http://www.omuvs.com/default.asp?Page=FacilityLeasing

[survivor999]

80. Wow. I looked at their web site.... And it's creepy...

Reminds me of X-file locations where supersecret, shady stuff goes on...

[HeeBGBz]

89. It IS creepy.

I get the creeps every time I drive by there.

When I took that bottom picture, I had pulled down their road to get a photo. I wanted to get out of there fast before I got shot or something.

There are so many caves around here. We had an enormous one underneath our neighborhood when I was growing up. Discovered when we were drilling a well and hit a big empty space.

I should really become a spelunker so I could locate potential hidey-holes for future needs.

[deek]

117. speaking of creepy

quote from their website

"Finally, our security is enhanced by the fact we control the entire facility.Another third party cannot play with who else might be located within the facility."

[MuseRider]

95. And I am close and own a farm

so anyone else migrating to the "scary" midwest who would like to co op here have a couple of welcome places. I can grow and can food, I can shoot although I have not killed anything since I was about 7 (squirrel hunting :puke:) but we do have a lot of available wild life if you must eat meat. I have horses for getting around and my neighbors are close, it is not in the way out here, and most are of like mind. It will be as comfortable as possible out in the river valley. Y'all come!

[put out]

133. Yeah, plus you're a musician-

You could get a bye (buy, by?) on a doing a lot of the shit work by entertaining. Hell, I can't even do card tricks. Guess I'm stuck with the sewing machine. But, hey, I'm a health person. Yeah! Just not a very good one. Boo.

Sort of an interesting thing to imagine, isn't it.

Did you ever watch "Pioneer House", I think that was it, on PBS? This discussion reminds me of the situation those folks found themselves in.

[MuseRider]

138. No, I never saw that.

I feel fairly confident if the shit hits the fan it will be OK for my family because I could live outdoors and be OK.

We could set up a clinic! I don't imagine anyone would care that I let my nursing license lapse, yours is current and my husband was a doctor. We could get a lot of chickens that way you know?

If they got to feeling really bad I could distract them with some avant-garde clarinet music!

[put out]

141. What an idea!

I suppose if you make yourself valuable, you stay more protected. So yeah. How far away would we be if something came down? I don't have a horse. Gotta get me one of those.

Think the neighbors will fuss?

But what if we end up with a bunch of useless artists? Who need rest and quiet and solitude to listen to their Muse? (get it?)

[MuseRider]

145. LOL

I have some lovely, quiet, wooded spots on my farm for them. The neighbors would all (or most) pull together except the guy down the road who keeps his wife locked up in the house and likes to shoot his gun in the middle of the street at 2AM. He might be a problem, nobody knows :shrug: Ahhhhh, country life. I can't wait to be out there. I hope civilization can hold off a year so I can get my house built. If not we can build a shelter!

Those caves you have in KC would be awesome as a community store room. There is a running river about 1/4 mile from my farm that we could use for keeping things cool and building an ice house. You see, our little community has thought about all of this. Y'all come, seriously. Too bad we would be too far away to do much community building but it would be fun to take a week to ride the horses to KC for a visit. The turnpike would be horse friendly by then and NO TOLLS!

I can sew too but we would need some weavers and some sheep.

[put out]

147. I had good friends into fiber design. That is some messy stuff.

Although gratifying, I guess, with the wool and the washing and the carding and the spinning. I liked looking at it and feeling it. But I failed at a drop spindle.

How do you shear a sheep without electricity?

Nail clippers? Sheesh. I say we grow hemp and make cloth from that, someone will know. Clothes are complicated.

Hey, have you seen "Off the Map", Joan Allen and Sam Elliott, wrong spelling of his name but (purr). About a family living off the grid, a government official visiting, how they live, how the official falls in love with it. And plenty of gritty existence and emotional and mental health issues.

You might like it.

[MuseRider]

148. Darn, I have missed a lot!

No I have not seen it. We are going to do our best at getting off the grid with GeoThermal and eventually Solar panels too.

You shear a sheep with shears that look like, or are, big scissors I think. I have actually seen this done and that is what I remember. Hemp is a great idea but I can't give up enough of my pasture to grow it, even if I could get the seeds because I have too many horse mouths to feed.

I have always had a desire to live off the land, substinance farming I guess but do not have the skills to do it all the way. I also do not like to shoot at living things. I can can food and garden and I am building a stock of dried things, rice and beans, to store. I can't really do the root cellar thing I was planning but we will have a space in our basement that will suffice.

I am serious that my little community will survive. Farmers welfare system will be the best thing going. Nothing better than small co-op communities.

[ecstatic]

49. i'd get some guns and loot

for food and essential supplies. Then get a bunch of books and read, read, read and reminisce on how life once was. Actually I'd also enjoy a beach type setting assuming no major storms were coming.

[cynatnite]

51. People will survive if the only option is death...

People will do what they have to in order to survive.

[IDemo]

52. There are several like-minded folks on the PeakOil.com board

In the Planning for the Future threads.

[Seansky]

54. THE midwest IS part of civilization so if civilization came to a sudeen

sudden end, there wouldn't be a Midwest to go to.

Regardless, I live have of the times in the rocky mountains...You'll be amazed about how quickly one can adapt if one really, really wants to live...Remeber Touching the Void, Lawrence and many, many other stories...Assuming that the sudden end of civilization wouldn't take nature with it...

[survivor999]

56. Sorry, I did not mean to imply that the midwest is not civilized :)

I was thinking that the coasts will be the first ones to go if there is a nuke attack, a pandemic, and whatnot (basically, the big cities go first). But I agree with you, things that appear terrible when you just imagine how it would be, sometimes turn out to be quite bearable and not that bad in the end...

[William Bloode]

60. No worry for me.

I have plenty of knowldge of eatable plants, roots, and berries. I am a heck of a bow hunter, fair slingshot artist. Damn decent trapper to. I am also skilled in making shelters out of natural materials, whether it be lean-to, wicky-up, tee=pee, or a plain ol cabin.

I'm pretty well prepared. The only problem i have now is advancing age. Not to many years hence i will not be near as capable as i am now.

[MazeRat7]

62. Name the place - midwest, desert, arctic, rain forest, etc...

I can survive anywhere....yes it takes skills, but it also takes commitment. Most folks don't have it and in those circumstances they would die quickly and badly.... :(

MZr7

[Angry Girl]

63. You get commitment REAL fast in life/death situations

I don't think we have to worry about that one. Although it will take time to learn to start fires without matches/Bic....

[MazeRat7]

74. OJT (eg learning) in that situation is not an option.

Folks either have the skills now... of they will die. You dont "learn" in that situation _unless_ there are others taking charge that know what they are doing.

Don't kid yourself, you can die in the blink of an eye and nature is very unforgiving.

MZr7

[markus]

67. Let's see. I live in largely treeless North Dakota

There's no electricity or natural gas.

I think I put on my snowshoes and start getting teh fuck out of the midwest as fast as I can.

[Rabrrrrrr]

70. The gun haters would be toast pretty quickly,

and knowing what I know of city people, not a lot of them would survive very well. They would be ending some of their elitist bullshit pretty quickly as they realize how much they will depend on the "ignorant savages" who populate the midwest to help them not poison themselves, eat, and build something in which to sleep.

[really annoyed]

71. Heck no....

But no doubt I have family members who would come to the rescue.

I have a lot of survivors in my family - I don't happen to be one of them.

[alittlelark]

75. I would. My green thumb can grow anything.

I have backpacked for 2 weeks straight. I know what to eat (in the SW and NW). I designed and built a gazebo, a greenhouse, and a tiered garden. I understand and utilize organic gardening and permaculture.

BUT... The REAL issue is - would I be willing to kill. The bottom line is that, in your scenario, people would turn into animals.

I have a great little set-up in Pagosa Springs, CO ... I wonder how many people would try to take it by force?

Your scenario is scary due to the fact that -likely- only the most brutal and evil would prevail.

I can only hope that civilized minds would come together to create a sustainable, and sane, environment.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

78. Wolverines!

sorry i can never resist. It's my problem.

[Telly Savalas]

140. I get the sense that Red Dawn is fantasy fodder for a lot of folks.

[Taxloss]

84. Depends on the sort of catastrophe.

Living in a flat in central London, if it was something like a nuclear exchange I'd die instantly. Not such a bad option in those circumstances. I've seen "Threads".

A plague, I know what to do to maintain a basic existence for a while. I know how to build a solar water purifier, I know how to fish, I know the names of useful drugs I should get for post-apocalyptic scenarios - antiseptics, antibiotics, painkillers. If this is a "28 Days Later" completely abandoned city, I know where to get the essentials.

[pattim]

85. I'd survive just fine, I believe.

I'm a 20-year-old former boy scout (only Star, school and X-C running were too much to keep in it) with a survivalist streak, a good shot, an extremely low metabolism, and a wiry build. I'm good. I can use an axe, a hatchet, a saw, hammer, etc, I can lash, I can tie knots, I can hunt (though I hate to), and I can identify plants, start and fire and cook using said fire, I can catch fish with basic implements, and I can run a garden. I can ride a horse,
I can use a sling, and I know first aid. I don't know what else I need.

[jillan]

86. Survive without C-span, AAR & DU?????????????????

Maybe, maybe I could remember who I used to be before my world
shook me to the core in 12/2000.

And those survival skills would come back to me.

Right now my survival skills have been concentrated around being a progressive thinker in a world that is regressive.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

94. Awesome post, pirhana.

I was trying to explain "why I've gotten so political" in the past five years to someone last night. He kept trying to tell me that I wasn't always like this- so into politics...

I agree, I wasn't like this. Which begs the question: what happens when we take back the senate, house, and white house? What do you think you'll do? Do you think you'll stay this political?

Sorry to go off topic, but this really spoke to me!

:hi:

[bleedingheart]

88. how can civilization come to an end? will people suddenly not know

how to read?
Will writing disappear?
Will people become lawless...just overnight?
Do you think that all crops will be destroyed and no one will know how to farm?

[FlaGranny]

100. Reading and writing could disappear in

one generation in the general population.

Yes, people would become lawless overnight, if survival was at risk.

Crops could be destroyed quickly by starving people looking for food. If there were no fuel to supply tractors, large factory farms could not supply enough food for everyone. Small operations could operate with manual labor, but they couldn't supply everyone.

[wellstone_democrat]

93. Some of us have worse problems in that scenario

those of us in very arid regions (like me) might know how to survive in temperate New Hampshire or Indiana but in far western Texas with little rain "truck gardens" are a tough prospect without sufficient rain. There is very very little natural vegetation---and even less that is edible.

The water table will not support the people here now in that even IF the electricity makes it impossible to pump from the Ogallala reservoirs!
Thos of us in places that probably should not be settled to the density they are in the modern world will have a different set of "challenges"

[GayCanuck]

96. As we saw in New Orleans

the poor and ignorant wouldn't do to well, unfortunately.

[slackmaster]

104. Add elderly and sick to your list

Sad but true. Civilization is supposed to provide care for those incapable of caring for themselves.

[Jose Diablo]

97. I'd get by

I keep supply of rice, honey, dried beans and canned meat/vegetables that would feed 6 adults and 10 children for about 6 months on 'normal' rations. Could probably stretch that to a year if needed, until other food sources were found/developed. Have fresh water, shelter to retreat to (away from the city) if needed, a source of heat for shelter and cooking that doesn't depend on societies infrastructure(natural gas, electricity). Have a supply of silver/gold bullion if the financial system evaporates and barter becomes the norm. Have weapons/ammo, and I know how to use them to protect what I have and who I love.

I would get by. Wouldn't like it, but I plan on having my family continue to live. I like the conveniences of modern life, I am not a survivalist by any means, but I can live off the land. I think the idea of making plans for the worst is not crazy, it's being wise.

Edit: Maybe it would be a good idea to get a good mill stone for grain, so bread can be made. Also, I have whats called a 'cupola' for melting scrap iron. It runs on propane, but I think I can modify it to run on charcoal(made from wood) and limestone. You know, become a blacksmith. Make tools and other iron implements. This would be a good thing to be able to do. Make good barter items to trade for what I need but cannot do for myself. Be a center for a new community, trade.

[Bridget Burke]

99. I couldn't.

I'm far from the Midwest & don't own any land.

As a post-menopausal female, I'm sure no patriarchs would welcome me their fortified enclaves. Won't they be going after the nubiles?

[Jose Diablo]

109. Can you cook?

Here is the deal that most people never think about. Every person always produces more than they consume. We tend to think about only what people consume, not what they produce. But the point I am trying to make is that all people have inherent value, it's just a matter of finding what they are good at doing and like to do.

The ability to produce children, or lack of, is not everything by a long shot. For example, what about a persons experiences and how that has moulded them in how they think. There is much more than just being able to pop-out children, what about caring for them so the children can become productive, become the next generation?

Don't be too sure about no patriarchs welcoming you.

[Bridget Burke]

120. Of course I can cook.

But I don't look forward to that sort of future. Perhaps some matriarchs will be looking for cooks...

[Jose Diablo]

123. Yes maybe

Even in a community that seems patriarch, the individual homes can be matriarch.

Maybe one of the nubile young wives will allow you to cook for the home and thus you can get by. But you know, generally the woman head of the home will not allow unfounded criticism of the male head of the house, even if he doesn't actually 'run' things. It causes too much disruption in the operation of the family. Cooperation is the key word I think in surviving.

I doubt you will be able to find a matriarchal community though, because the needs to defend against raiders will be too high, unless there is some form of inter-community cooperation to keep highwaymen from operating. If bandits don't exist, then a matriarch community can be made to work. I think parts of India have matriarch communities. Do you think you could find your way there?

[Bridget Burke]

124. No thanks.

I'll opt out of the Survivalist Fantasy. Have fun.

[lastliberalintexas]

101. Well, I'm still without electricity

So I think I could get used to living without it- at least as long as I could be a snowbird type and move with the weather. It was a pain in the arse without air while we were still in the upper 90s. Now that we are in the lower 80s, it's actually rather pleasant!

But by and large we are a spoiled society, myself included, and I doubt many of us would like the conditions you describe. That said, humans are rather adapatable creatures. I'm sure we could make it through if we banded together and threw the idea of John Wayne rugged individualism down the drain where it belongs.

[NorthernSpy]

103. I have wood, farmable land, water, and potatoes

And apples.

Same as just about everyone else where I live.

If Something Bad were to happen, people around here could probably survive for a while. But only if we cooperate and don't forget anyone, and don't leave anyone out in the cold to fend for themselves. All the bullets in the world aren't enough to keep my potatoes safe from all others -- not if there's an entire town of hungry people out there who desperately want them.

Survival is a cooperative endeavor.

Civilization can't just "end" if we decide not to let it. We ourselves are civilization.

[sleipnir]

105. I think I'd rather take my chances in Tahiti.

:evilgrin:

[McCamy Taylor]

106. My family could survive, but the question is would we want to?

[newspeak]

107. funny you should mention "survival"

remember the Y2K bogus scare? I remember going over the list of things you need, I was already stocking up on water, until it hit me-My hubby and I agreed that we weren't going to be killing people trying to steal from us and we were not going to steal from others. You see, we do believe in a soul and a conscience and I'd rather be dead than betray that. Have a friend who is a genuine mountainman, actually lives most of his time in the wilderness because he doesn't like crowds. He's an artist and comes to town once in awhile, I have one of his art pieces. Anyway, we decided to go into the mountains and risk survival there rather than stay in a town or city. Has anyone read the book "Into the Forest"? It's about two sisters who survive near San Francisco in the redwoods after the energy is depleted. Good book. I have numerous books on edible and medicinal plants, animal tracking and surviving. Also, I've been storing "Seeds of Change" seeds.

[Arugula Latte]

110. "far from cities..." I think I'd rather perish!

I need my metro areas!

[newspeak]

111. your from Oregon

there's beautiful spots in Oregon. Places where you could survive. You know I was raised in the deserts of Arizona. You wouldn't believe what I'd eat in the desert as a little girl. Then, I experienced living in the beautiful mountains of northern california and utah. Nature is beautiful and you might find living around it more natural than living in the cities, eventually.

[Arugula Latte]

113. I know. I do love nature and I like to camp.

The mountains, coast, and forests here are spectacular.

It's just that I don't feel truly comfortable with the people unless I'm within city limits. Even when I go to the first suburb ring outside Portland I feel like "these are not my people; I don't belong here." ... But then I'm hyper sensitive to that stuff.

I was being somewhat facetious -- but just somewhat -- when I said I'd rather perish.

[newspeak]

115. berries and mushrooms, yum!

Yep, Oregon has wild blackberries and mushrooms---of course, you'd have to get a book on mushrooms. Living in Ferndale CA, had a group who would go out and collect mushrooms---you could really survive in Oregon-

[newspeak]

114. and while we're on the subject

some insects are delicious.......have you ever had fried worms? Taste just like bacon or little like popcorn. Chocolate covered ants? Never would know that there ants. See you can always eat what's "bugging" you. insects have lots of protein and it's just our perceptions that make them hard to swallow. Of course, I'm into cooking them first. can't imagine raw grubs like the bushmen, but cook them over a fire and I'd try them in a heartbeat!

[OnionPatch]

116. We would, we would

(hand waving in the air)
Husband is an avid hunter and fisher. He's also a carpenter and can make just about anything. I garden, preserve food and even save my own seeds. He's a biologist, I'm a geographer. Before having our child, our favorite vacations were the ones where we disappeared into the wilderness for two weeks with just the packs on our backs. So saving that some horrid disease or war that wipes us out, I think we'd make it just fine.

[newspeak]

118. two things for survival can get at a "gear store"

water purifier---there made for hiking packs and a fire starter---it's small and fits in your pack-lasts forever-don't need matches or lighter.

[Gormy Cuss]

119. A fairer question would be to posit survival in known areas

vs. unknown areas. My survival skills in the Midwest would be constrained by my lack of knowledge of local flora and fauna although there would be sufficient overlap that I might be able to survive. If I found myself in the Great Plains or desert I'd probably not make it.

On my home turf it would be much easier. In areas where I have lived my skill set should allow me to survive long enough to acquire additional skills for long term survival either through pooling knowledge with others or through trial and error. It wouldn't be easy, but yes I believe I could muddle through for some time.

I do believe a great number would be clueless, but most could adapt. The survival instinct is pretty strong.

[HoosierClarkie]

121. I live on a mini farm

surrounded by corn and soybeans! Y'all could come here! ;)

[Ksec]

122. urine as an antiseptic

it was used as a treatment to scrapes and abrasions because its surprisingly sterile once it passes through the body (I heard)

Dog urine diluted makes the best lawn fertilizer, but its really tough to make Tug pee in a bottle..

[ozarkvet]

144. True

Unless you have an ongoing infection.

Men's urine is better for this purpose for that reason, BTW.

(Things one learns in survival school.)

[triguy46]

126. Well, it depends...

I have 15 acres, water, wood, wood burning stove. A variety of wild game. But listen, this is a major kind of nightmare. What is suggested here is a step back to the 17th century settlement of the US. The colonists were, in theory, to be self sufficient, and in most respects they were, but they bore the cost of 50% mortality at Plymouth, year one; Infant mortality upwards of 80%; fish and game significantly more abundant.
For just two people, like wifey and me, it would be excruciatingly hard. Hence the need for large and extended families, it takes a lot of people to do what tractors and chainsaws do today.

I think it becomes more survivable if there are sufficient people around for communal living/working and bartering.

In the book, "the long emergency" such a scenario is played out. Most of the US would become uninhabitable, in particular the Southwest. Phoenix, tucson, Las vegas, kiss it goodbye due to lack of water. In many ways that becomes the limiting factor, proximity and access to potable water. The author of the book suggests that agrarian communities, almost communes, in the upper midwest and northeast could have the best mix of climate, environment, natural resources. The overwhelming majority of people, urbanites, wouldn't make it. We rural folks would have to hunker down and hide, I think anarchy would be the watchword for a few years.

What the hell are we gonna do will all the bodies??

[ComerPerro]

130. I would be killed by FReepers, who would take my stuff

[Generic Other]

134. Some of us could rough it for awhile

but sickness or injury would be a constant fear. I think the mortality rate would increase sharply.

[MisterP]

139. I always think that the "survivalists" die off first--not because "weak

urbanite Lazy Crickets" kill them and take the things the "Busy Ant he-men" wisely stockpiled when the Turner Diaries came about or whatnot--and here I don't mean "survivalist" as an ordinary Joe Schmoe with lots of canned succotash and a little concrete box to stay in--but because they kill each other off with their "shoot-the-zombie-people-first" approach; one survivalist gets tired of biscuits and goes to what's presumed a safe fellow to ask for bacon, and gets shot because Bacon survivalist thinks Biscuit is a mutant or a zombie or a "looter"--just look at the bilge swilling up online when reports of New Orleans violence arrived over the wires.
In actuality, the Orleanians banded together to survive the best they could--cooperation instead of competition. In Haiti and Palestine, when social ruin arrived, self-constructed parallel governments emerged from the rubble and provided legitimacy: The Serpent and the Rainbow provides how West-African-style secret societies were established in Haiti to provide law and order as tinpot dictator after tinpot emperor shuffled by like confetti in Port-au-Prince and Haiti's half-dozen other capital cities.

[ozarkvet]

142. Grew up on a farm in AR

Parents are still there. Butched hogs, the whole nine yards.

And was in the Army, as was my dad.

Brother is a doctor.

We'd be fine.

Bored, but alive.

[B Calm]

149. Indiana country boy here. I could survive as long as I didn't

need medical attention..

[Kar98k]

150. I'm ready

I live in the midwest and I'm ready for the end of the world as we know it...


Simple preparedness means that I keep at least 5 cases of Bibles and 2,000 rounds of 5.56 mm ammo on hand at all times.

:sarcasm:

[mnhtnbb]

152. Off to Panama

Hoping civilization doesn't end before we get our place built--due to be completed by Christmas 06.

[greblc]

153. I have no doubt in my survival skills...

It's people that don't that scare me. Desperation would lead to chaos.

I've seen War of the Worlds, the Mad Max Movies ,The Postman and Water World.

Trouble I tell you...Trouble.

Thanks for the post Chicken Little.