Public school uniform policies & their scope. Soliciting opinions....

[spacelady]

My daughter attends the Mobile County Public School System in Alabama. OK, Strike One. This county established a uniform policy before she started school. Not happy, but compliant because it's the Law. She is now in 4th grade. No problems, excellent student, but that's not the point. She is in intermediate school grades 3-5.

Early this summer, they drastically changed the uniform code to eliminate Khaki skorts, which was a staple of her school wardrobe. I am one of thse parents who buy children's clothing in the hope that they may be able to fit in the next year. I wrote and stated my concerns before school started. Got stonewalled & then Katrina hit & I decided it wasn't that important.

However TODAY, it is starting to turn chillier & daughter wanted to wear long pants. After school she said her teacher told her that those pants were not acceptable. The thing is, these are the SAME pants she wore last year (still fit) and they totally conform to the written policy. Called principle & told her I could not buy her an entire new winter wardrobe & she had no response but that they were not the correct FABRIC. Mind you, they had no rivets, were not jeans material & not cargo pants, etc. What next? I have contacted school board, thinking of ACLU. Sorry so long.

[Trillo]

1. Laws requiring "uniforms" are designed to

aid the buisnesses selling and manufacturing those uniforms. It's simply corporate welfare.

[spacelady]

3. You are correct, but when I tried to pin the principal down to a brand

name or a store, and cited unreasonable enforcement, she would not come up with any argument beyond "uniform type fabric" & would not specify what that means & said confining it to a certain brand or store would create hardship. Believe me, these were not hiphuggers, bellbottoms or cargo pants & I am not trying to "get away" with anything, just don't think I need to buy a new wardrobe

[Captain Hilts]

9. It eliminates 'fashion' pressures among girls, in particular...

and demphasizes differences in income through appearance.

[MercutioATC]

2. What IS acceptable?

If not khakis, what are they looking for?

[spacelady]

6. See post above, I think yours is earlier, but I can add :

Pants must fit at natural waist line no denim material. or Khaki jeans. All I'm saying is that these pants are a brushed cotton twill 65% poly 35% cotton....WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT!?!

[niyad]

4. not too long at all-- although I understand at one level what uniforms are

SUPPOSED to do, I thoroughly disagree with them (possibly as a result of my catholic school and military background) I HATE uniforms, see them as an instrument of homogenization and loss of identity, not to mention that I have NEVER seen a uniform that looked good.

[Generic Other]

7. Homogenization

Exactly. And like milk, we know whose values any "others" will have to conform to.

[shenmue]

5. They are horrible

:grr: :nuke:

[pacifictiger]

14. actually

I liked wearing uniforms - we began in high school. Never a clothes horse, I didn't have to worry about what I was going to wear the next day, LOL.
That said, I think we paid more attention to actual learning because the clothes discussion was not part of the day - the rich kids were not able to outdo the poor kids in their dress. And in the long term it was MUCH cheaper for our parents than parents today having to keep up with all the latest fads and fashions so their kids are accepted by the "in" crowd. Acceptance was focused on behavior & smarts, not on outer image.

[shenmue]

15. Well,

I'm entitled to my opinion too. And yes, I did have experience with them, in my student days. When I changed schools, I was never a follower of fashion there either. "Wanting to be a clothes horse" is not the only reason a person would not like uniforms.

[ncteechur]

8. Actually you are incorrect.

The school I was at implemented a uniform policy. Green or white shirts and khaki or black pants or short or skirts. It was not done to help any particular business. Actually, I insisted as an administrator that parents be able to purchase 3 entire outfits for less than 100 bucks and we did that. We did not specify what vendors had to be used although we did specify the shade of green. We did not specify shoes although they had to be plain sneakers or street shoes. No flip flops,etc. OUr policy is mandatory because we have school choice in our county and students could choose two of the four high schools that do not have uniforms. Guess what? Our enrollment is up mainly from students choosing our school from the county schools without uniforms.

My question is why did it take us so long? I can't tell you whether it will affect academics but the atmosphere and climate of the school had change positively. Students no longer worry about what they wear and we do not have to contend with Madison Avenue.

So you are exactly backwards. Clothing manufacturers and designers do not want uniform policies because that limits the amount spent on their clothes. It limits the effectiveness of their advertising on
MTV and other youth oriented shows.

And if you are a school administator, it does help with policing existing dress codes which students push the envelope on.

I'm sure someone will write an argument about freedom of expression and speech. Malarkey. Kids can wear what they want to on their own time. But not at school.

Now to address the concern about the person's daughter. This sounds like a uniform policy that was not thought out very well. We did parent and student surveys to help formulate a good policy. There are some constraints about fabric but nothing extreme. We do specify styles of pants--for example, cargo pants are not allowed.
Sounds like your concerns should go before the board of education to determine whether they realize that parents buy clothes (uniforms or other) with the intention that they may last more than one year or that younger siblings can wear them later. Call your board representative.

Good Luck.

[Generic Other]

10. How can it be incorrect to say you don't like something?

You like looking like everyone else, fine. But you don't know me. I don't buy new clothing. I buy thrift shop. I am not supporting the fashion industry. Re-cycled clothing is fine for me and mine. We buy stuff that looks new and is still useful when someone else cast it aside. Our choices are based on our politics.

Uniforms are totalitarian.

[spacelady]

16. Thank you ncteecher, As a former teacher myself, I pretty much

agree with the rationale for the policies. For once in my life I am trying NOT to be a rebel. This particular school (which is new and rated as one of the best in the county) is being very nit-picky on one thing and not others, ie shoes...I have contacted the school board and this just happened today, so I am curious about anything I could add to my position. Should I go there and become the uniform police to show them the silliness? When is the actual learning happening between obsessing about uniforms and NCLB testing?

[spacelady]

11. I personally think it stinks too, but I have been trying to comply and

have invested in a perfectly compliant wardrobe, much to my chagrin-- is there any recourse because in the end I am paying taxes for my child's public school education. The policy is so badly written I could drive a truck thru the holes--I am looking for a grandfather clause.

[ncteechur]

12. You may disagree but you are incorrect about your suspect

purposes. Parents can buy a complete uniform for less than what one Tommy Hilfiger shirt costs. My school did not form some cartel with clothing manufacturers nor do I suspect other schools do either. We have several parochial schools in my city and each have outlets where parents can sell old uniforms, so that parents of younger kids can purchase them without it costing a lot.

Everything is not a conspiracy--just Plamegate.

[ncteechur]

13. Your first step since you didn't get anywhere with your principal

is to call your board rep. and question why last years uniforms are no longer acceptable. They wrote or at least signed off on it.

If that doesn't work. Write a letter to the paper. If the policy is that poorly written, I'm sure there are other concerned parents.
However, don't just attack the policy on the grounds that you don't agree with it. That is a separate issue although you may do so.
In this case, stick to the obvious problems with the policy--they may need to revise it.

[spacelady]

19. Yes, you are being very reasonable, but selling her old uniforms is

rather disheartening since apparently they are not "acceptable" at this school. An LTTE may be in the works if the school board does not intervene. I'm not claiming conspiracy, I fact I'm trying to "comply".

[GrpCaptMandrake]

17. If they can cite "wrong fabric"

they can also point to chapter and verse (written) where there is a delineated list of "approved" fabric. If they can't, you win. Remember this phrase: "arbitrary and capricious." It's magic with regard to that kind of administrative decision.

It sounds to me like they're trying to qualify those slacks as "khaki jeans." In other words, brushed denim. Most people, by "khaki," tend to mean either a poplin or twill or at the outer edges, cotton duck.

Above all, you have to hold their feet to the fire. The warmer you can make it for these authoritarians, the more likely you are to prevail.

My very best wishes to you/for you.

[spacelady]

20. "Arbitrary and Capricious" is an important concept---I reiterate that I am

NOT trying to supercede the uniform policy, just trying to get a "uniform" enforcement based on previous policies AND other policies within the school system.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

21. The Idea is that they can pretty much

make any regulation that they want, within reason. The one thing they CAN'T be is "arbitrary and capricious."

How do you prove that? By what you've already put forward: the vague fabric standards, the unreasonable time frame, the lack of meaningful documentation.

I understand you're not trying to overturn anything. You're trying to deal with an unnecessarily trying situation without going broke. You shouldn't have to go through that just because some gang of anal-retentives have an authority fetish.

But that's just me.

[spacelady]

22. All I can say is that I wish YOU were the principal--you could be a PAL!

[GrpCaptMandrake]

23. Wouldn't last 10 seconds as a princiipal

but thanks for the kind thoughts. I'm waaaaaay too opinionated and resistant to authority.

My sis is a teacher at a private school there in Mobile. She's told me a bunch about the public school system.

[spacelady]

24. Thanks for responding, probably why I'm no longer a teacher....

I admire your sis & private school is sounding better.

[spacelady]

18. OK, I will clarify that all pants were purchased at discount stores

and "rich kid" problem does not apply.

[nolabels]

25. Communism comes to mind

Like not only the correct clothing, how about the correct answer for everything. An individual that understands the need to be an individual will always be the more valuable in long run in any free society. Cookie cutter kids won't cut it in this more ever changing world.

[spacelady]

26. Only if the individual doesn't get silenced first. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. On princiole the laws work

yuo are facing lack of common sense and abuse of the policy on the face of it

ACLU might be a good choice, talk to the principal first

True story I went to a school with uniforms, and the uniform were jeans. Due to many reasons I could not wear them without major chaffing, the school principal understood and made the exception. Try the principal.

[spacelady]

28. I always try to start with the person nearest to the situation, but after

reasonably stating my position, she went off on me, hence the reason for alternative ideas. Thanks for your insight, jeans, wow.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Private school in another country

they thorught it woudl not go south, it did... kids who could got them expensive ones on shoping trips to Houston... the rest did not... and this, becuase they never stated it in the policy, to go for national brands.

(or rather what you could get locally at a umiform store)

But that is a whole different kettle of fish.

;-)

[Sivafae]

29. My worry is undue hardship.

In public school there are a lot things that admins cannot require because not everyone has the $$ to pony up. I wish you the best of luck in this case. It does seem a bit extreme that pants from one year are not acceptable the next.

[spacelady]

31. It is an undue hardship, not only because of the price, but because

there are NO official uniform stores where items START at $40 within 20 miles & all we've got is Walmart where pants are around $14, but heaven forbid you buy the wrong FABRIC. I am beside myself.

[LeahD]

32. In some cities, the Assistance League provides

clothing/school uniforms for students whose families are in need. Perhaps there's a philanthropic group in your town that can help.

[tenshi816]

33. I don't have a problem with uniforms, but then

we're in the UK and all schoolchildren wear uniforms. The thing is, there are school uniform shops selling the necessary items for each school in the local area - you walk in, find the section for your child's school and everything is right there. There's no question of it being "wrong".

I find it appalling that your daughter is expected to conform to her school's uniform policy without your being told where to buy the exact items of clothing you need. If the school's policy is that specific, then they should source the uniforms themselves and allow you to buy directly from the school. Years ago my older son's school did that when they introduced a particular uniform item that was difficult to find.

I'm in favour of uniforms myself because it eliminates the "what shall I wear to school today" problem (it's hard enough to get them out the door on time in the morning).