Would our own military take action against fellow citizens

[prolesunited]

knowing they were in the wrong, like killing protesters at Kent State?

Bush keeps on raising the specter of changing laws to allow the military to act on U.S. soil. Will Congress go along with it? Will that power only be used for good? Do we want to have that power if a Dem was president?

Will the American public go along with this whole scenario? With his public approval rating so low, can he succeed with such a power grab?

[hippiechick]

1. Do you really have to ask ?

:scared:

[EVDebs]

24. US's Tienanmen Sq. was based on 1932 Bonus Army incident

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/snprelief4.htm

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Expeditionary_Force

Where USMC Gen Smedley D. Butler and others marched on D.C. and set up an encampment. This embarassed Pres Hoover who eventually had the vets rousted. FDR then said, upon hearing that this had happened, that Hoover just elected FDR president !

[prolesunited]

30. But the RW media machine didn't exist then

Just look what they did to Cindy Sheehan. A gold star mother was turned into a crazy "clown" dishonoring the memory of her son. They have no conscious and the only thing that matters is winning.

What about the band-aids and the purple hearts for Kerry. They turned earning the purple heart into something disgraceful and dodging Vietnam service and not fulfilling NG obligations into something honorable.

[Selatius]

34. It was Douglas McArthur, I believe, who broke up the Bonus Army

He was the one in charge when the order was given to rip down the encampment.

[EVDebs]

38. Yes, and Patton in charge of cavalry with Ike in the background

The Republicans really blew it then...and now. Their economics is supposed to feature Shumpeter's 'creative destruction' yet all it's really doing is 'destructive destruction' ! It took four years before the first net new job was created (just keeping up with population growth rate of 2%/yr). No wonder Paul Craig Roberts calls for impeachment, and HE's a Republican !

[henslee]

2. In a NY minute.

[Sandpiper]

3. You bet they would

As your own post indicates, that question was answered on May 4, 1970.

[indepat]

17. Have any soldiers acted improperly in Iraq ostensibly at the behest

of higher-ups? If so, does anyone doubt this would likely happen on our own soil?

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Yes

the civil war may start five seconds later, but that is another story

[Lerkfish]

5. Obviously. you cite Kent State... there is the proof.

and keep in mind Kent State involved national guardsmen...people of that community or area.
If martial law is invoked, it'll be active duty troops, who won't be patrolling their home area, so that eliminates one barrier to "shoot to kill".
Further, don't kid yourselves, Blackwater Mercenaries will be the "enforcers". These guys are sadist torturers for hire.

have a nice day

:wave:

[Xithras]

14. Kent State was the result of one or two peoples actions.

I know that most people don't much care for the soldiers point of view, but the stories have always been fairly consistent. One or two of them fired without orders. The rest of them, hearing the echoes of that fire from the surrounding buildings, thought they were under fire themselves.

Of that entire group, it's likely that only a couple were actually malicious enough to deliberately fire on innocent protesters. The rest were simply incompetent.

[Lerkfish]

33. I'm sure that's a comfort to the 4 dead protestors and their families.

[NNN0LHI]

16. Oddly enough those National Guardsman were in the Guard to avoid...

...having to go to Vietnam and face going up against the Vietnamese who had guns and could shoot back. Just like Chimpy. We really do live in interesting times.

Don

[asthmaticeog]

6. hrrrmmmm...

"Would our own military take action against fellow citizens knowing they were in the wrong, like killing protesters at Kent State?"

I suppose it could happen again.


"Bush keeps on raising the specter of changing laws to allow the military to act on U.S. soil. Will Congress go along with it?"

I strongly doubt it.


"Will that power only be used for good? Do we want to have that power if a Dem was president?"

Hell no and fuck no. ;)


"Will the American public go along with this whole scenario? With his public approval rating so low, can he succeed with such a power grab?"

His public approval rating has little to do with his ability to get his agenda through Congress. Imagine this scenario: his approval rating dropping being the impetus for him ramming the revocation of Posse Comitatus through the legislature. I could see it. It's paranoid, yeah, but still, I could see it. (Edited to add: But I still don't think Congress would give in to his request to revoke it.)

[genius]

7. They did it in Germany and that's the direction we are going in.

[Double T]

8. Bush is up to NO DAMN GOOD as usual.......

this is the kind of crap dictatorships are made of and we better make sure Congress doesn't allow it to happen.

[jane_pippin]

9. I think you answered your own question with "Kent State." n/t

[Xithras]

10. It's not just a matter of fellow citizens

The Bush admin has been padding the militaries ranks lately by promising citizenship to foreign nationals who serve in our military. The catch is that they have to serve honorably and follow orders.

Would a bunch of kids from Brooklyn fire on American citizens if ordered to? Probably not. Would a unit comprised of foreign nationals...who face courtmartial, a loss of citizenship, AND deportation for them and their families...refuse an order to fire on complete strangers with whom they share no historical or nationalistic connection? The odds are FAR greater that they would NOT refuse it.

Connect the dots. Bush has been pushing for increased foreign military recruitment AND now wants the power to command troops on US soil. Dot. Dot. The painting's not done yet, but it's starting to look a lot like a police state.

[endarkenment]

11. Blackwater, KB&R etc. no problem.

I think the military proper is problematic: some will and some won't. Sure there could be Kent States and Jackson States, but there could just as easily be Ukranian moments where the state looses control of the military and with it of their own power to rule - its all risky business. The mercs are another story. They will kill anyone for the money and have no long tradition of constitutional constraint.

[oregonindy]

12. yep....its brainwash city man... n/t

[flamin lib]

13. Hey, hey, hey!!! Kent State was an example of poor leadership

and poor training. Most casualties were not protesters but people far from the event.

I was a part of riot control in the area at the time and can tell you that the professional soldiers were some kind of pissed off about it. We were soldiers 24/7 & 365 and didn't get live ammo so why did the (at the time) weekend warriors get it? Poor leadership.

The answer to the OP is not only no, but HELL NO. Some few idiots may lose control, but not one command grade officer will lead his troops against citizens of the US.

They may wear a uniform and may have a chain of command but they damn well know what an illegal order is.

[prolesunited]

22. As someone cited upthread

Prisoner abuse shows that some in the military are willing to just "follow orders," regardless of whether it is ethical, humane or legal.

Also, what if private troops like Blackwater entered the picture? Would your professional soldiers battle them to protect the American people and the Constitution?

[flamin lib]

26. some in the military are willing to just "follow orders,"

And some are willing to issue them. Will the military follow suit to the extent of a coup? That's where I say no.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. That is why I see this as the begining of the civil war

some unit will follow, hence why I said yes, the rest of the military will, shall we say, react....

[sdfernando]

23. The Siege

I would hope that you are correct, but my little voice tells me otherwise. If you haven't seen the movie The Siege, you should. It gives a good example of the military acting on US soil against US Citizens. It's just a movie yes...but that doesn't mean it can't happen. I remeber one scene in particular where the general says something to the effect of "following the orders of my President."

[Selatius]

37. That movie is pretty ominous in today's world

I've seen it. It's like something that would happen in the aftermath of another mass casualty event on US soil.

[MildyRules]

15. No

They would not.

[McKenzie]

18. difficult to say for sure

especially from a Brit who is only looking in from a long way off (thank goodness). However, Hitler rose to power on the back of military might that he used to suppress domestic dissenters.

Interestingly, when the Brit government reacted against the Red Clydesiders in 1919 they locked Scottish troops into their barracks in Maryhill, which is a suburb of Glasgow. There was a huge demo in Glasgow at that time and it was not long after the Bolshevik Revolution. Consequently, the government got really scared and sent in the army. They were afraid that Scottish regiments would have supported their comrades so they used English troops instead.

The ethos generated during the strike still reverberates in Scotland today. In 1971 there was another left-lead strike in Upper Clydeside and even today Glasgow is rock solid Labour.

At the risk of political/nationalistic chauvanism...Scotland is not natural conservative territory. In 1997 we did not return ONE conservative MP to Parliament.

How the use of the military to suppress dissent in Scotland would pan out today is anybody's guess. And I certainly don't know for sure what would happen in the US.

[dbeach]

19. madmen running the US Govt

have NO Boundries.

the US Military could eeeasily fire upon citizens

WWI Vets were fired upon in 1920s asking for Bonus pay.

Macarthur gave the ordeers to fire and Vets and some family were killed.

This is an all Volunteer Army which is not a good thing if bush declares martial law..

bush is gonna try something big to stop the looming indictments.

WHAT?? WHEN?

the bush cabals are basically homicidal and way out of control

[RagAss]

32. They were unarmed vets....unfortunately....

[jody]

20. I know some active and guard troops who would but most would not.

My reply is based on them "knowing they were wrong".

If the decision was gray, most would follow orders as required by law. They would either do that or be punished.

If you are between 17 and 45, and not excluded, you are part of the "unorganized militia" and you could also be punished if you did not follow orders of your governor or the president if you were activated.

[Fenris]

21. Two answer your second question about Posse Comitatus...

I have serious doubts that the Administration could push this issue very far, as a repeal of Posse Comitatus would have far reaching consequences probably undesriable to even the staunchest Republican. After all, in a few years, there may be a Democratic president and/or Congress, and the military will be under the civilian authority of Democrats. Believe it or not, the Republicans are just as paranoid of us in power as we are of them.

Keep in mind that the President reserves the right to waive this law in case of emergencies, and has yet to do so, despite his big talk. In addition, Federal troops may also be used to quell domestic insurrections. There is enough leeway with the existing laws that revising or overturning them would be ill-advised.

[prolesunited]

25. Some questions then

In case of emergency, can the president do this unilaterally or does it require consent of Congress? If the president already *has* this power, what has be been going on about?

Anyone clear on exactly what he wants to change?

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. I always wonder if someone like General Clark made in on air on a

network and told the troops to stand down because the administration is a fascist regime, if they would listen? Maybe on Military Radio? There are many top military officials who KNOW what these people are doing. I wonder if the military would listen to someone of HONOR and who's highly respected like General Clark, instead of the chimp?

[prolesunited]

29. The only thing is that those who see what's happened

have either been demoted or left in disgust as to not be a part of it all. The silence has been deafening.

[RagAss]

31. Oh yeah...some of them would love it.......and some of us

will die fighting back....

[Neil Lisst]

35. They most definitely would

The military NOW is much more likely to accept without question orders to move on citizens here than in the past.

Look at the police and others in New Orleans, who treat citizens like POWs.

http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst/

[Selatius]

36. Ultra-rightwing nutjobs would volunteer to shoot leftists of all stripes

During the American Revolution, the Continental Army not only had to fend off attacks from British regulars but also had to fend off attacks by LOYALISTS opposed to breaking away from the authority of the Crown.

The only way a military unit would fire on its own citizens is if Bush or somebody else INTENTIONALLY formed a unit made up of those who are WILLING to fire.