The War and sacrifice

[nadinbrzezinski]

Well here on DU I think we have two schools of thought as to what may make Joe and Jill finally realize what is going on.

Now I will ask a series of questions, which may point to what is going on

What did bush say after 9.11? No, not the world will soon hear us crap, but the other message? Anybody remembers?

What were the actions of the gov'ment regarding Taxes?

How many of you have relatives serving in the armed forces, are are currently serving? If you do, what happens when you go to a military Base any base? (I am not talking about the checks, ok, but the every so popular things that tell us we ar at war) and how many of those do you see in the "outside world?"

Who is bearing the cost? I mean truly bearing the cost?

Why do you people think this is the case?

Enough questions for now...

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Maybe I have to answer this myself

The answer to the first question was CONSUME, go shoping....

We all know the gov'ment lowered taxes, (which has never been done by a country going to war)

For those of you who don't have a way to get into a base, here is a clue... there are machine gun nests, and people on guard at all times. There is also this definite sense of we are at war. you see NONE of this in the outside world, except in some blue cities (NYC) that needs scaring... but for the most part, people are living their lives with absolutely no signs that we are at war... no signs

The cost is truly being borne by military families, active, reserve and National Guard

The reason they want to keep this limited to a few, percentage wise, is so people are not bothered by this war.

So when you fight the idea of sacrifice you are also fighting the idea that Joe and Jane have given nothing in their standard of living for the war. (It has gone down for other reasons, but not the war, or at least the connection cannot be made)

So yes a tax on gas or other goods is a good idea... why? Collective sacrifice.

And as much as people hate it, and as many negatives drafts have, it may be the only way to make people give a fuck about those kids coming home on flag draped coffins... do I hate to say this? yes... but it may be the only way to make it real. This is also the reason why they have not so far, enacted a universal draft, there is one right now, but they volunteered, so them fuckers can go die...and this attitude by BOTH SIDES is pissing off military families. who are just going... ok we belong nowhere and is in some ways the equivalent of spiting... they volunteered who cares?

On an aside, i did meet a vet who was spat upon on his way home in '69... he identified them as John Birchers... which did not surprise me one bit. I asked him to go on record, he said, for many reasons he will not... and left it at that.

[endarkenment]

2. So you want to punish us with a draft so we will behave?

Is that it? You want to institute forced conscription not because you are in favor of forced conscription to provide bodies for our imperial adventures at a time when the volunteer army is running short, but because it will punish all the 'Joe and Jane' suburban parents? Is that it? Don't you think that is slightly manipulative and disingenuous?

I think this is a bad war and I don't want anybody fighting it. I certainly don't want the state forcing our children into service to fight their stupid and illegal wars of conquest. Simply put: fuck that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. You misread

what I want is for the country to be forced collectively to face the fact we are at war.. that is the ONLY THING that will get middle america to go, war is painful

This can take many forms, including perish the thought higher taxes

Reality is, once we get rid of bush, there is no will left to pay the price and do what is needed

This is all about ME, and I and mine... this is what the country has become.

Now we will need a draft, but for other reasons, and in fact we already have one, a back door draft and a poverty draft, but you are alright with those two, aren't you? They volunteered, I have heard the mantra.

[endarkenment]

4. "now we will need a draft"?

What are you talking about? We don't need a draft now, or ever, unless we are being attacked by a real military force and have a real military emergency. We were attack by clever men with box cutters. That does not require a military response or a draft. We invaded a country that had nothing to do with those clever men with box cutters other than they shared a cultural heritage. This war is illegal and any attempts to fund it with taxes or bodies should be resisted.

The solution to the back door draft is to get the fuck out of Iraq, not to give the neocons the bodies they need to go after syria and iran.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. did you read OTHER reasons

you missed them. I know

What other reasons can you use the military for?

1.- Rebuilding of infrastructure,

2.- National Guard in disasters

but choose to read what you want

Oh and the unstated one, after bush leaves, it will take years to rebuild the volunteer force, and it may take a generation

But using the military to REBUILD can and has been done.

Read whatever you want... I am sure you really want to continue your life as is, with no obviously sign we are at war... and you are fine with the poverty draft and the back door draft.

Oh and the most important reason... you want to keep a military force that will remain as part of the nation and not separate from the nation? you need short termers... right now the US Military is increasingly becoming a very isolated praetorian guard. That has its dangers, none that you have ever considered I am sure.

[endarkenment]

6. Actually I ignored the other reasons

as they are irrelevant, and I am being generous with that assessment. "Rebuilding the infrastructure" is not a proper role for the military and is certainly not justification for forced conscription. The National Guard - that is the state militias organized as the national guard - have managed just fine without the draft. Their current recruitment problem has to do with their misuse as filler for the regular army in our bloody stupid imperial adventure in Iraq.

The draft you are so fond of will not be used to rebuild the infrastructure or staff the national guard for disaster relief. It will be used to provide warm bodies to be processed into cold bodies so that The Cabal can continue its pursuit of empire.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. You know you are just not realizing what is going on

and joe and jill will continue to go their merry way as long as it does not hurt

You also oppose a hike in taxes

Ok....

I think this conversation is over, go consume a little, the presnit will be pleased

[endarkenment]

8. Thanks for the gratuitous insults.

I oppose a war tax - we are not really at war. I support rolling back the insane stupid dishonest corrupt bush tax cuts - but I do not want one cent of that going to pay for illegal overseas military adventures.

I oppose a resumption of the draft as this would simply be used to provide more bodies to continue the war and would not, as you seem to think, somehow magically end the war because somebody you refer to as joe and jill would get upset enough to actually do something about it.

I oppose what you refer to as the 'back door draft' - but the way to end that is not by activating the even more hideous 'front door draft', it is by stopping our insane and criminal wars of aggression.

Oh - and you don't get to decide when the conversation is over, you just get to stop responding. You started this thread, but that does not mean you get to end it.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

10. If EVERYONE had to sacrifice, we wouldn't be in Iraq today.

To prevent future such war crimes, make EVERYONE have to share the sacrifice.

That or make it law that any president launching war must send 2 of his own family members to the battlefield.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. And we are at war, you and I know it

but many rond these parts don't

[LynnTheDem]

14. I hear ya.

And you know I understand exactly what you (and Charles Rangel) mean. And many don't and won't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I know but Rangel has been there done that

Korea

And you and I, we earned our stripes, the damn hard way.

So I will keep saying it, and if they decide to ban for telling the truth, so be it.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

12. Compare this to WWII

Doesn't he keep comparing this war to WWII? Hitler/Saddam? Good/evil?

We sacrificed then, now Bush tells us not to for the sake of businesses. He told us to go places and spend money after 9/11. Back then, people rationed gas and food. They collected scrap metal for the war effort. They bought war bonds.

We had a draft then, now there is no draft and few families have loved ones lives at stake. A few fighting for the many. Most of the American people have no direct emotional connection to the war.

It's out of sight, out of mind.

Who is bearing the cost? All of us, as far as dollars are concerned but only a few as far as lives go. "It doesn't directly affect me, so I don't care. But I will make it look good for politics". This is what I believe some feel in power.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. And I hate to say it, some around here as well

I don't want a draft, will affect me

I don't want to pay taxes to pay for the massive deficit

There are days....

People will not get it that there is a war on until they are forced to make a sacrifice... and that is the point of this...until people are emotionally affected, they won't get it, we are at war.