Would Bush order our own military to take action against fellow citizens?

[NNN0LHI]

That is the question that we should be asking ourselves. He is a snake and I am sure he would do it.

Don

[Hand]

1. In a new York minute...

He'd make Kent State look like a tea party; he's a psychotic sadist.

[Bluebear]

27. Can't say it any better. nt

[MountainLaurel]

50. Damn, beat me to it

But rather than Kent State, I imagined the Ludlow massacre or the Battle of Blair Mountain.

[sepia_steel]

2. Would he?

Yes, he would.

[knowbody0]

does the pope poop in the woods?

[Vincardog]

3. He would order them to gas us. Never doubt the evil.

[Double T]

4. Yes, Absolutely.

[malmapus]

5. He would order I woudln't doubt...would they follow the order...

that I seriously doubt.

Raising a weapon against a fellow American is a whole nother ball park.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

54. This is where the rubber meets the road.

I think of this scenario often as a psychological exercise.

The military, by it's very nature, is a brainwashing machine. I never underestimate the power of limited and controlled stimuli. It's less the soldiers firing on fellow Americans and more how "noble" they find the mission.

It's an interesting question. History is replete with examples of armies doing just that. Otoh, the tank in Tiananmen Square...stopped!

[Vincardog]

6. He would but the question is "What would the troops do?"

[Angry Girl]

11. They would take orders, as they always do. n/t

[triguy46]

15. As in all tin pot dictatorships...

the military will go along, as they sense power to be grabbed. El Presidente for Life is their boy, and they would much rather do his bidding than not.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. When have the troops ever not when ordered to?

"Troops" are trained, from day one, to follow orders without question.

History is full of examples of the troops firing on their fellow citizens. Numerous times when the labor movement was forming. The "race riots" in Detroit, LA, etc. Kent State.

That's why the troops carry guns.

[Silverhair]

26. What would YOU do if I had a very deadly, very contagious disease...

and I was walking toward your children. You have a gun in your hands. It isn't my fault that I have the disease, but I have it anyway. Now what do you do about me approaching your kids. I am only begging for help.

You are a soldier. If one of those diseased people gets out, then millions of Americans will die, including maybe your own family. Globally, maybe a billion people - dead - if I get out. What would you personally do?

Sound brutal? It is. But if Russell, KS, had been quarantineed at the beginning of the 1918 flu, it would never have spread.

[Vincardog]

39. What if you did not have the horrid disease but * said you did?

Are you willing to die for another lie? You are contagious for days before showing any symptoms. Why is it that the death cult members can see no good unless it involves killing?

[Silverhair]

40. You dodge the sceanrio.

I am not death cult, just a realist. I realize that sometimes life can throw some really shitty choices at you.

Interesting that you assumed it was a lie. And if you are wrong and it was not a lie, then the virus escapes.

In 1918, the military medical authorities wanted to quarantine Ft. Riley. If they had been listened to, the great plague would not have happened.
-----
This is NOT a defense of the Bush plan. His idea is completely unworkable as the Avian Flu virus would be entering the US from many different points and could not be surrounded to make a quarantine work.

[Vincardog]

51. The scenario is unworkable. The Avian Flu could mutate into one

easily transmitted between humans, It could happen next year it could happen in 50 years or 1n 100 years.

When it happens the truth remains that you will probably be contagious for a few days before you showed any symptoms. The quarantine option would probable not work today. It is not 1918 any more. The time when you would be contagious would be enough to travel from Asia to New York and back.

My attack is on the pResident's propensity to use every thing to garner more presidential power. Why would he want to use the military to control movement in the US? Why wouldn't he call for an immediate aggressive program to produce massive amounts of anti viral treatment?

[Silverhair]

66. Again, you dodge the question.

In my scenario, I never mentioned flu. I just said a highly contagious, deadly disease.

By asking that question, I was showing how troops would indeed shoot. Quarantine, IF you actually have the disease surrounded, does work. It isn't fair, it isn't just, but it is effective.

However, with Avian Flu comming into the US from many directions, we would never have it surrounded, so a quarantine would not work against Avian Flu.

[Vincardog]

67. How am I dodging anything? You admit the quarantine would not work.

If I had a highly contagious, deadly disease I would want to troop to lead me to a MEDICAL CARE FACILITY.
SHOOT THE SICK is just too RePibLickin for me.

[MarinCoUSA]

7. In a F*cking New York heartbeat!

He is such an angry damaged man.

[Angry Girl]

8. He has wet dreams about it: Bush for Life! Here's some ammo...

Bush for Life: GOP Criminally Insane Democrats introduce new bill to Congress

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/06/319395.shtml

NOTE: Three of the four sponsors of this odious bill are Democrats. Great, who needs enemies with friends like these....

[triguy46]

16. If not by pen, then by sword. n/t

[Balbus]

23. This resolution is proposed and sponsored by a Democrat.

Don't know why the link you posted would say it was a Republican campaign. :shrug:

edit: spelling

[Angry Girl]

28. WTF? Horrors!

I've corrected it. Thanks for pointing that out!

Ugh! I can't believe it was Democrats! What the hell????? Why? WHY?
AAAAAAARGH!

[endarkenment]

9. That's the plan.

Isn't it obvious where this has all been leading? Don't we all know, even if we refuse to admit it, that the disintegration of our Republic has not even come close to hitting bottom?

I'm sure there is a missing white woman somewhere.

[Bluzmann57]

10. Yes

no comment needed. But here's one anyway. He proposed a form of limited martial law last week when asked about the bird flu. So there is little doubt that he would order soldiers to use force against Americans. It has happened in the past,at Kent State University. It could happen again, only on a larger scale.

[electron_blue]

12. of course he would

What we should be asking ourselves is how can we get Presidential powers back to where they were pre-2001?

[triguy46]

13. That's what all this scare crap is about...

to 'permit' on the front end, sending troops into cities, and on the back end to occupy and pacify. I really believe this, and why I now only refer to him as El Presidente for Life. It is so inconvenient to rule in a democracy, so much easier in a dictatorship, and the sharks sense blood in the water, (watch all these metaphors!), and will run roughshod, (see), over the citizenry to maitain power. Their credo will be "Family Values or Die."

[Marr]

14. You bet your ass he would. After all-

"things would be a whole lot easier if this were a dictatorship".

[silverweb]

17. Absolutely.

If it suited his purpose, he wouldn't hesitate for a heartbeat.

[ladjf]

18. What a silly question! Bush would do so with gusto. The man

is a sociopath and he has more power at his disposal than anyone else on Earth, not a good situation.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Surely, that is a rhetorical question. Is the pope catholic?

Without a second thought. And, despite the rose colored glasses displayed by some here, the troops would follow orders.

[JHB]

20. Never. Absolutely not.

The key is who Bush would consider "a fellow citizen". (hint: it ain't us)

[xchrom]

21. why wouldn't he?

it's what psychopaths do.

there's nothing remotely connected to humans in him -- he is a dead creature, without virtue or the least humanity unless it gains him something.

[Silverhair]

24. Yes. Quarantine often works, but won't this time.

Diseases don't give a dame about anybodies civil rights or their feelings. To a virus - YOU ARE FOOD - and nothing else.

For a moment, let's leave the current Avian Flu considerations out of the question, so that we can look at it in abstract.

Citizens in (Pick a City) have started dying from a communicable disease. The public health officials have found it quickly, isolated it, determined that it is extremely contagious, and highly lethal. The virus has been caught early enough to be contained. If it gets out to the rest of the country, the ENTIRE WORLD is in danger. It will be very tough luck for the people in that city, but a strong tight quarantine would work.

Consider that the 1918 flu began in Russell, Kansas, and was taken out of the area by three men who reported to the Army. When the sickness hit Ft. Riley, military medical official strongly recommended that the entire camp be quarantined while the flu ran it's course. But the war was going on and soldiers were needed, so they were not listened too.

If Russell, KS area had been quarantined early, the great 1918 plague that killed 675,000 Americans WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. If Ft. Riley had been quarantined - IT WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

During the 1918 flu, there were some towns that self-quarantined. At gunpoint they turned away ALL outsiders. It worked. Those towns had no cases of the great flu.

Now ask yourself: Is it worth shooting a few people to make them stay inside a contaminated area to save the 50 to 100 million that were killed globally by the 1918 flu?

Now say that you are a soldier enforcing the quarantine. You have been told, and you know it to be true, (For this example) that the people inside the area have a very deadly highly contagious disease. If they get out, the disease will spread to the rest of the world. That means that you own family could die if those diseased people get out. Will the average soldier open fire to keep people in? Yes. He may have nightmares for the rest of his life, but HE WILL FIRE. He will be afraid not to. Not afraid of his superiors - afraid for his own family.

------

A QUARANTINE WILL NOT WORK IN THIS CASE.

Because the flu will be coming into this country from outside, it will pop up in many places at once. Quarantine will be impossible.

However, self-quarantine should still work. A town, or even a building, could close itself off to ALL outsiders, and if the flu is not yet inside, it would stay outside.

[NNN0LHI]

41. What happens if the virus got to Russell, Kansas via a wild bird?

And suppose after passing the virus on to some worker there the bird flew away and infected other birds and humans somewhere else? Or perhaps it came from a delivery person who was in Russell a week before it was diagnosed there and had already went on to his next stops in more towns and gave it to others there? Like maybe the local egg and poultry salesman perhaps? Would a quarantine in Russell, Kansas tight or otherwise have had done any good then?

Don

[Silverhair]

47. Yes.

You really should read up on the history of the 1918 flu if you are going to talk about it.

It first mutated in Russell, and had almost run it's course when three men (Yes, their names are known) left for Ft. Riley for the Army. All cases were at Ft. Riley for a while, then began to show up at other bases as soldiers were transferred.

[NNN0LHI]

48. Here is another interesting mutation theory you may wish to read?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Flu

One prevailing theory indicates that the two primary concepts in genetics created the virus at Fort Riley, Kansas--genetic drift and genetic shift. The fort bred its own swine and poultry for consumption at the fort. Like the avian flu in Asian countries, poultry in the United States characteristically contract a certain strain of influenza. Swine also characteristically contract a specific strain of influenza; however, the two strains (one infecting avian species, the other infecting swine) can usually cross infect the opposite species. Occasionally, usually by chance, when the viruses cross infect from one species to another, one influenza strain can incorporate the other strain's properties and change drastically (so called "drift"). Under bad circumstances the new influenza can kill half-or-more of the poulty and/or swine population, but what really concerns epidemiologists is genetic "shift", which is also theorized to have occured at the fort. The strain that was jumping from swine to poultry or vice-versa jumped to humans (the genetic "shift") allowing the influenza that was confined to swine and poultry to become a human pathogen. At the same time, the new strain was highly infectious and deadly because humanity had never experienced such a strain of influenza.

Recently, scientists (see below) have reconstructed the virus, and the evidence gained from that reconstruction suggests that the virus jumped directly from birds to humans, without traveling through the swine. This does not eliminate the idea that the pandemic started with a Fort Riley cook, however; indeed, he could've been preparing chicken when he came down with the bug.

[The Wielding Truth]

25. Yes, he left stranded nola citizens to suffer and die.He executed

mentally retarded in Texas. He bombed Iraqi and Afghanistan innocents. His actions answer this question. We should fear the CHeney GRoup and their agenda. THey will do anything to further there plan.This is not good for OUR SWEET AMERICAN. Who is watching out for HER? We must.

[fooj]

29. To save his own ass he would.

:mad:

[Disturbed]

34. 911 Attack was the "new Pearl Harbor" for Bushco.

Will Avian Flu be the new excuse for Martial Law?

[shance]

30. You've got to be kidding. They just DID. In New Orleans.

That is what we need to understand.

That is their goal. They want to take over the United States of America through manufacturing disasters, terrorism and chaos.


There is no sanity or rational thought in their agenda. We are looking at people that wish to engage in a Fourth Reich.

For those in denial, you can live in an illusion until it's too late, and there will be no illusion left for you to hide within. That is what they hope you will do.

[bearfan454]

31. In a fucking second he would

This guy is beyond evil.

[ChickMagic]

32. Are you kidding me?

This is sooo much more entertaining for him than blowing up frogs.

[texpatriot2004]

33. I an evil heartbeat. n/t

[driver8]

35. Does a bear shit in the woods??

Of course he would...without even blinking an eye. Shrubby has already shown that he doesn't give a rat's ass about the lives of Americans. All he cares about is money, his image, and helping his friends get rich (not necessarily in that order).

[BelgianMadCow]

36. No doubt in my mind

to be honest, the picture of humvees rolling through NO while citizens were lining the streets demanding urgent help made me wonder if it didn't happen already.

[Greyhound]

37. After 5 years of this bozo (apologies to the real Bozo) how can you

even ask that question? not only would he would order military action against our citizens, he and the rest of the corporate criminals that run our country, have made all of the preparations to do just that, not to mention the facilities to imprison millions more are ready to go. :tinfoilhat:

[Mr_Spock]

38. Yes, of course he would

He's a lying mass murdering war criminal - he would do anything to remain in power.

[Kablooie]

42. He has a Kent State of mind.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

43. Of course he would. Many soldiers WOULD shoot their fellow citizens,

regardless whether the reasons appeared legit or shaky.

The main question is, would there be ENOUGH who would refuse, to cause a breakdown in order to prevent such a move from being successful.

[Ioo]

44. If he could, he world,

[in_cog_ni_to]

45. No doubt in my mind!

He would happily do it in a heartbeat!

[Individualist]

46. He'd gleefully do so

Bloody George would like to kill anyone and everyone who is opposed to him.

[texpatriot2004]

49. Not enough people are seriously asking this question IMHO nt

[jmatthan]

52. Can you even think he won't?

eom

[LynnTheDem]

53. Yes of course he would, he's made that clear by his desire to kill Posse.

And yes, most US troops would obey orders and shoot their fellow citizens.

[LynneSin]

55. Wait - they did!!!! In New Orleans

Not sure if there was any bloodshed but troops went in there for the express purpose of removing citizens from NOLA even if by force

[gulfcoastliberal]

56. I wonder who ordered the Aimes Anthrax letters??

Bet that is an inside job.

I have no doubts * would order the military to be used against us. After Hurricane Ivan, people who tried to get back to their homes on Pensacola Beach had M16s leveled at them by the National Guard. Same thing going on in New Orleans. It's already happeneing.

[Arkham House]

57. Bush is the Incarnation of Pure Evil...

So yeah, I think he would...even if a mass flu outbreak made it "necessary"--he'd *enjoy* giving the order...the thought of killing people is the only thing that really animates him...

[lpbk2713]

58. And the asshole would do it with a clear conscience.

Weasel Rove would probably provide him with 1001 ways to rationalize it.

[NNN0LHI]

59. He would give the order and still be in bed asleep by 8:00 PM sharp n/t

[bluedawg12]

61. sociopathic clear conscience and sleep well to boot n/t

[tyedyeto]

60. Abso-fucking-lutely!

I think anything to control the people of the US is what the * administration is after.

[PatriotMom]

62. Uh Uh Uh Yes..... thats's the plan

training soldiers in the art of torture as we speak, urban warfare, and weeding out those that will resist. Kinda like what has happened to our "Finest" What happened to protect and to serve?...yikes watch out for those tasers :wtf:

[PatriotMom]

63. kicked and nominated, good topic, we should think about this one n/t

[Raksha]

64. I'm sure he'd do it without thinking twice about it.

The big question is, would they follow the order? There was a thread about this on GD earlier today. Most seemed to think some troops would and some wouldn't, which is my belief too.

[Kenergy]

65. Yes he would n/t